Nancy Ortberg's Intro

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Today on the servant leadership podcast, we welcome Nancy Ortberg. NY's leadership journey has been anything but

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linear. Nancy started out in nursing, worked nearly a decade in hospitals and emergency rooms, and then shifted into

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leadership at a mega church, followed by consulting alongside Patrick Lencion. For the last 10 years, she's helped lead

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a significant nonprofit movement across the Bay Area and recently transitioned into a new season after handing the

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reigns to her successor. Nancy has a passion for building healthy cultures and has helped shape thousands of

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leaders across the world. Join us as Nancy shares lessons from working with top leaders and her perspective on what

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it means to bring humanity and servant leadership into your everyday life. Nancy, welcome to the servant leadership

Welcome, Nancy Ortberg

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podcast. Thank you for having me, Chris. I am so excited that you are here. When I first

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bumped into your content, it was due to some church world stuff. But then later

Nancy's Journey Into Non-Linear Leadership

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in life, I bumped into your content again, hearing you talk about nonlinear leadership, and I heard you use this

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example about rubber bands. Can you explain what that journey was

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like getting into nonlinear leadership for our audience and what you were talking about back then? You know, I

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think it's just really a reflection of the way my mind works. I am not a linear thinker. And I think a lot of leaders

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are and they lead very well that way. But I think with nonlinear leadership, a

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lot of it is about what is the kind of culture that you're building in your organization and the deep belief that

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results will come out of the building of that culture. So it's not we're going to do step A then B then C. It's what are

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our values? How do we interact relationally? And how do we encourage each other to

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set goals that challenge us? But we do it inside that the culture really is the

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primary thing. And the rubber band example was something that Greg Hawkins, who I worked with for a long time, just

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brilliant guy, talked about in any organization, you have to have the right kind of tension. And a rubber band can't

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do its job if it has no tension on it. it'll break if it has too much, but when you stretch it just the right amount, it

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will hold things together. And that always stuck with me. Wow. When you heard that for the first

Valuing Non-Linear Leadership

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time and started thinking about it and writing the book, what was your hope that people walked away with? Um, a lot of it was just valuing that

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kind of leadership. Um, I think a an awful lot of leaders at the helm are very linear leaders. And I think to

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understand that there are people like me who can get a lot of stuff done and and

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bring value that don't think like that. And also, you know, I've led organizations, so they could be at the

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top, they could be on your team, they could be below you, but just to really value that kind of thinking. I think

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that's really what drove me to write it. Well, your path has been also a

Nancy's "Non-Linear" Background

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nonlinear path, right? you've had so much different involvement from

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consulting to business world to church world to leading some cool initiatives

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in the Bay Area. Talk a little bit about your journey. How did you fall into all

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this? Well, again, uh all I ever wanted to be growing up was a doctor. I never changed

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my mind. And clearly you saw how that worked out. I did Oh, sorry. My grandson painted my nails green this morning. So

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that's what that's about. Um love it. did two years premed and hit inorganic

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chemistry and was like no no no and back in those days there was no career counseling so I switched to nursing I

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went to grad school after that for got a master's degree in education but it was really about how do people learn how

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does social change happen uh yeah and then I wor I worked as a nurse for almost 10 years I did medical

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surgical emergency room home health and then I worked on staff at a very large

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church which had which had a very strong leadership culture. And then I did leadership consulting with um Patrick

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Lencion. Many of you have probably read his New York Times bestseller books on leadership. They're just terrific. How

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do you build trust? How do you engage in conflict? How do you do decision making? How do you hold each other accountable

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to get the results you want? His stuff's brilliant. And then for the last 10 years, I've run a nonprofit in the 11

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counties and 256 cities of the Bay. But that's just another example. I used to

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tell my kids um when they were going into college, the only people that graduate in the same major they started

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out with are engineers because that's a very clear way of

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thinking and it doesn't map to much else. The rest of us kind of have to figure it out as we go along. And so my

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journey was very ciruitous. You're right. In all those different contexts, you got

Characteristics Of Great Leaders

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to work with some amazing leaders. Uh it'd be interesting to understand what

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were some of the things that you saw be consistent across the great leaders you got to work with and help and interact

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with and also what were some of the common misconceptions or areas where you're like gosh there's some obvious

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blind spots that many leaders have and might not be aware of. Yeah. So, the first part of the

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question, that's an interesting one. Like, with the different leaders that I had the benefit of working with, you're

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right, so many of them were just top-notch, well-known, state-of-the-art leaders. And some commonalities

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that I really appreciated was most of them had a lot of energy, a lot of enthusiasm. You know, they would walk

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into a room and kind of galvanize people because they really loved what they were doing for the most part. Now, it didn't

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mean every day, but that was kind of contagious, and I really appreciated that. Most of them had the ability to

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set vision and set a direction, but have a lot of permeability so that things

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could shift and change. So, you really felt like I'm contributing. I'm making a difference, not I've been given marching

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orders and I'm just executing them, which I don't find very interesting.

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some of the warnings uh you know they were they were all also

Blind Spots Of Leaders

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very different leaders you know one of them I think was fairly narcissistic and pretty consumed with ego and uh would

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get angry and want their way um that that was not great

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one of them really started to bring politics in a very strong way into the

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leadership and it was like oh I I don't think that's a good idea Yeah. Um, one of them was so driven I couldn't see

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straight. And I'm I'm a pretty driven person, but it was just like I have a headache. Um, but overall, I'm just very

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grateful for the leaders I've both worked for and with. Well, and it's

Background For "Transforming The Bay With Christ (TBC)"

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interesting because you kind of had the church world dynamic, you had the organizational dynamic, and then kind of

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thinking about stuff you're doing today. You've you've taken both of those worlds and almost merged them into what you're

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doing with the nonprofit you mentioned. How did that come about? And share a little bit more about that.

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Well, that's an interesting observation. And the first thing I would say about that observation is I think great leadership is great leadership whether

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it's in the church, in the hospital, in business organizations or in what I'm

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doing now, the merging of the two. I think there's just more similarities than there are differences to really

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great leadership. This organization that I just finished a 10-year run with and now I'm staying on

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part-time and one of the guys I brought on the team of the board approved him to lead. So now I'm working for him and

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it's great. I had a leader one time tell me team leadership never works and I said except when it does and of course

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it can work and it can also work in this way where Gary worked for me and now I work for Gary and it's it's all good. Um

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but I think uh what when the organization was just starting and I I'm

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more of a startup person. I like the entrepreneurial the chaos of the start. The head hunter called me and they were

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one year into the starting of this organization and I said heck no. And

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actually I had two L's at the end of heck. I was like absolutely not interested. And you know the head hunter

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told me later it's mostly the reluctant leaders that he goes after. He he he kind of likes that which I I didn't

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know. But he just kept explaining to me the difference in this organization from

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other organizations like it. And the longer I looked into it, the more I was intrigued. And then he told me I could

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back out at any time, which made me feel safe. And then it didn't take long

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before going through the process where I really wanted to help lead it. And the

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other thing is, Chris, I feel like after 10 years, the kind of leadership I'm really good

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at, this organization didn't need as much of. and what Gary brings to the

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table that I don't we really need. So I'm sitting back going, "Oh man, was

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this a good thing. This was a great thing." Wow. So kind of having that humility and

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leadership to know when your time's done. And not just for age or whatever,

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but my gifts have kind of played themselves out as far as they can go. And this organization

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has grown to a place where if it's going to go to the next level, it needs Gary.

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Wow. I love that perspective. I've heard Craig Rochelle talk about what got you

The Right Time To "Move On"?

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here won't get you there. There's a book by that name. He didn't write it, but there's a book. I love that title. You don't even need to read

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the book. The title is all you need. Well, and I've heard Arthur Brooks talk a lot about there's different points in

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your life where you are going to be the expert in and you need to know when it's time to let somebody else be the expert

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in what you were the expert at and moving on. I find so many people, myself included,

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find it hard to know when is the right time to let go of certain things, to move on to something else, and at the

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same time to know when should they take the reigns and really step into a new leadership role. What advice do you give

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people navigating some of that journey that that you've been on multiple times throughout your career? You know, if there was a hard fast

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equation that worked, somebody would have written a book and told you how to do it to to pay attention to your own

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internal answer to that question. Like be asking yourself that question from

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time to time. If you're lucky enough like I have been in every work situation

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I've been in, I've had boards and have invited them to speak into it also.

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have friends that I asked. But it was just really an inner sense of when I look back in the rearview mirror, I was about 10 years as a nurse, about 10

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years at the large church, about 10 years business consulting, about 10 years in this nonprofit. And given that

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my wiring is more entrepreneurial and less managerial, I I started knowing

11:01
about maybe about a year to 18 months before I said, "I think I'm done." Started really dwelling

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deeply in that question. How would it feel if I stepped away? Oh, I think it would be really good for the

11:14
organization. Well, that's a good answer. I think I've run out of like I

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said, here's two or three things this organization needs. And I told the board when they hired me, I'm not good at

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these things, and I could try to get a little bit better, but how silly would that be instead of to recognize my

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limits and say, "Oh, Gary's stellar at that. Let's let's do a flip-flop here." So, I think paying attention especially

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to your own inner voice and asking yourself those questions that's really powerful. I think so often

Importance Of Mentors And BOD

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leaders uh CEOs, presidents, founders, entrepreneurs, whoever, they're in these

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roles where they're expected to know and be the expert in everything, right? And they kind of set themselves up for it.

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And and at some point, if things are working, you can stop being the expert in certain things. And the point is to

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surround yourself with people smarter than you. Absolutely. Um it it's interesting that

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journey. You talk about having good board of directors. Uh a lot of people might look at you and think, well, of

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course you had good boards of directors because you're so connected. You've got a great network. You've had great career

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success. You've you you're somebody that people want to be around. For somebody just starting out, how do they find good

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mentors, good adviserss, good board members? Well, the board me, you know, that was not true when I first started working

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and the board members were already in place. And so I think my open is to be

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mentored to like I really want feedback, not just positive feedback, but I want

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critical feedback when there's something I need to consider differently. I think whether you have a board that you work

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for, which is already in place. Also to go outside of the organization and get a

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couple of mentors that aren't in the system that can keep your head on straight while you're in the system, but

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they're not in it with you. So, I just asked people and I don't ask people to be a mentor of mine for the rest of my

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life. Um, I had one mentor that was probably one of the most influential

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mentors in my life and he said two things after he said yes. He said, "We're not going to set up a standard

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appointment and when I don't hear from you, I'll I'll just assume you don't need me. When you need me, call me and I

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will make the meeting happen." But we're not going to set something up. then you'll have to think, "Oh, I better have

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something to talk to him about." And then he said, and he was 20 years older

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than me and wildly successful in the business world. He said, "Um, I expect

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to learn as much from you as you will from me." And I just grinned and said, "Well, good luck with that.

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I don't know that that's going to happen." But what a gracious spirit. Wow. Yeah. So, I would ask, and it's usually

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time limited. Could we do this for six months? Yeah. Yeah. We talk a lot on this podcast

Perspective On Servant Leadership

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about servant leadership and that sounds like great humility and servant leadership from from that mentor. When

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you when you hear servant leadership, what do you think of and how have you experienced that throughout your career?

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I remember when I was doing consulting work with Lencion, I was working with a leadership team and one particular CEO

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and was having a little hard time getting through to him about how important the culture on the team was.

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And so the sentence I came up with was, "Do you believe that it's important to

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pay attention to what does it mean to be human and do you believe that that has the possibility of affecting your bottom

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line?" And he just immediately said, "Absolutely." And so it's like, okay, what does it mean to be human? And how

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is that the lens through which you see your leadership, how you treat people,

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how you make decisions, who's at the meetings. Um when do you hold your

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opinion back till last? Because like it or not, you will hold a heavier weight.

15:02
Uh how easily can you say these few things? I made a mistake. I was wrong. I

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dropped the ball. I don't know. Tell me what you think. All of those things are

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um really viewing people through the dignity of their humanity. Um I worked

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at a hospital years ago in the emergency room and there was one doctor in particular. We all loved working with

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him. I mean, he just he was obviously the most important person on the team, but he made all of us feel like we were

15:33
imperative on the team, which is hard to do in an ER because you have two or three people you work with all the time,

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but you call a code on somebody, you've got X-ray in there and laboratory and um

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housekeeping and he would look at their name tags and he would call them by name and he would ask us questions during the

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process to make us a team. And I remember at the end of one particular

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code where it was really touchandgo, we saved a young woman and he was debriefing the process with the intern.

16:02
Why did I give this medication? Why did I put a chest tube in here? And housekeeping was cleaning up and the

16:08
nurses had taken the patient upstairs to ICU. And I was finishing charting back in the days when you had to write it out. And after the doctor went through

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all these questions with the intern, he said to him, "Did you notice the guy from housekeeping?"

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Well, I was done charting, but I kept moving my finger because I thought, I'm not leaving this room for anything because I know what's going to happen.

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And the intern looked at him kind of frustrated like, "No, like you're not asking me medical questions." And so the

16:36
doctor said, "Well, here's the deal. When we're in the middle of a code, we have the this hospital has the best

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housekeeping team on earth. They are in constantly putting things back where they should be, cleaning up the floor so

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we don't stumble over things." And you could tell the intern still wasn't getting it. And so then the doctor said,

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"Um, the housekeeping team is great. The guy that was with us today, his name is Carlos. Carlos wife's name is Maria.

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They moved here three years ago from Mexico. He sends half of his paycheck home every month. They have four

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children. He named their children. He named their age. And then he said he lives in an apartment just a few blocks

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from here." And the intern still blank look on his face. And then the doctor put his hand

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on his shoulder and said, "It looks like on the schedule we're supposed to work next Tuesday together. Here's your

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assignment. You come ready to tell me something about Carlos that I don't already know." I was like,

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"Wow." I would walk through fire for that leader because he elevated everybody on

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the team was important. Everybody. And that's just one example of hundreds I

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could give you of my draw to leaders who treat people like that. When I'm going

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to hire somebody, I will take them out to a meal and I'll watch how they treat the weight staff and the bus boys. That's important.

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Yeah. Wow. I think when people start out on the journey, everyone wants to be a good

Becoming A Great Leader

17:58
leader. Yeah. And along the way, even what from the

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outside we might say this person's not a good leader, they probably don't think they're a bad leader. Mhm.

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How do you think people move from being a good leader into a bad leader? Or at the same time, what are the things that

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you think people need to watch out for to not become a bad leader? Because that's so powerful that story you share,

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but it's something that a lot of what I would say great leaders might not think about. Yeah. Hold those two questions

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separately for me because as I answer the first part of it, I'll forgive the second part. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that's a great

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observation that really hardly anybody starts out thinking I'm going to be a bad leader. Um, most people don't.

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Honestly, the first thing that came to mind when you um mentioned it was nobody's paying attention to them. Great

18:50
leadership pays attention to people and does a 3:1 ratio of great feedback

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versus the one time, you know, Chris, we got to talk about that because that can't happen again. So people need to be

19:02
paid attention to because then something in them rises to the best version of themselves and this kind of nobility. I

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want to grow into that. So I think you need somebody that's going to pay attention to you.

19:14
I think anxiety, oh my gosh, there's a book called Managing Leadership Anxiety.

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If you haven't read it, order it today. I didn't write it. I don't make any money off of it. But he just identifies

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everybody's anxious. The worst thing about leaders is we don't think we are

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and it comes out sideways out of us. And so, how do we pay attention to our own anxiety? Because our own anxiety will

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make us fold in and just care about getting my work done and not helping other people or um trying to get as much

19:45
power as possible because I feel so powerless or cutting corners because nobody's looking. So, I think uh not

19:53
being aware of your anxiety will definitely take you on that road. And then just the whole ego stuff of really

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believing your own press that I did that all by myself. That was all me. It's like, yeah, it probably wasn't. Those

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are some of the things. When you come alongside young leaders now who are just aspiring to do

Developing Young Leaders

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something great and they're looking to you for input, what are some key things you're thinking about across the board

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that you're thinking, I really want to instill this in them and I want to help them with these areas that they might be

20:21
blind to. Yeah. I mean, the first thing I would do is ask lots of questions to hear their story. So now I have a context for

20:27
development. Now I know, you know, what's going on. I remember one time I had a young leader that worked for me.

20:34
Uh just terrific. I mean, he it's too strong to say everything he touched turned to gold, but it was akin to that.

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He just was a great young leader. But when we would go out to lunch,

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he would eat so fast and he would have blue cheese dressing dripping off his

20:52
lips and I'd be like, "Oh my gosh, this can't be my job. like I'm just going to develop him into leadership. Well, that

20:58
is my job because he's going to grow in his leadership and be out with other people. So, I finally asked him, um,

21:05
what was it like growing up in your house at at meal time? And boy, did that unlock like asking the

21:11
right questions. Their story, his mom left the family, the dad with five kids. He said, "Oh, it was every man for

21:17
themselves at dinner." And I said, "Well, it kind of shows. Let me let me

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tell you what I'm seeing when we're eating together. And I just want to remind you that you're an adult and

21:28
nobody's going to take your food away from you. We still I still keep in touch with them. We still laugh about that. But the willingness to hear their story

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and use that as a context for development. I also want to talk to them about accountability. We're going to

21:40
develop a culture of accountability. And that goes for me, too. We're going to tell each other, hooray, what you did

21:47
when you mentioned that one sentence to that person. You just built into them beautifully. when you got your work done on time, the whole rest of the team

21:53
could get their job done. Yay. The way you talked to that person at the team meeting, not okay. Where do you think

22:00
that's coming from? So, we're going to set it up and they get to do it with me, too. We're going to set it up from the beginning that those are the kind of

22:05
conversations we're going to have if they're serious. But I spend a lot of time trying to get to the root of whatever issue I'm

22:12
seeing, whether that's a good issue or a difficult issue. That's good. over the last decade,

Helping Leaders Work For "The Greater Good"

22:19
you've dealt with, I don't know how many, but a significant amount of leaders throughout the Bay Area. And

22:26
from the outside, not living in the Bay Area, just having visited, uh, it seems like there's so many cutthroat

22:33
competitions and, uh, lots of people at odds with each other in terms of just

22:38
trying to climb the ladder ahead of somebody else. Yeah. Uh in what you did, you were able to

22:44
uniquely bring people together in a way where competitors were on the same page

22:51
uh just from seeing some of the things you did. How do you help leaders see beyond the thing they're doing in and see into a

22:58
greater good? Yeah. Well, that's such a great question. I think it really boils down to vision.

23:04
What can I say to you in a paragraph or less that is going to captivate the very best part of you and the desire to want

23:11
to do it with the other people in the room? The limits to what any of us can

23:17
do alone and what's possible when we work together. We, you know, part of our

23:22
theory of change has been and it's much more detailed than this, but collaboration is catalytic. If we can

23:28
all put our egos aside and we can really believe that the greater good is so

23:33
motivating. Oh my gosh, so motivating. Yes, it is. And and and again, I know

23:38
there are pockets and places in the Bay Area that reflect what you said. That's not the majority of companies here. It's

23:45
just not. It's like when people say, "Oh, I hear San Francisco's really gone down the tubes." I'm like, I'm so glad

23:51
you think that. So, you just stay living where you're living. There's not a street in San Francisco I've walked down

23:56
day or night where I have felt unsafe and I've been in the tenderloin at night. Um, it is so exaggerated. That

24:03
doesn't mean San Francisco or that area doesn't have its problems. If I were homeless, that's where I would go. I wouldn't I wouldn't go to Detroit if I

24:10
was homeless. Freeze your your butt off. But, um, it it's really overstated. And

24:16
I really do believe in addition to what you're doing for your work, people want to be part of something even bigger.

24:24
I really believe that. How did you step into a world where you

Bringing Your "Full Self" To Work

24:30
were able to bring your full self to work? Because a lot of people I think especially just knowing your public

24:37
figuress in the faith world coming into a tech world that might seem faith

24:42
unfriendly at certain times. How are you able to step into that? And how do you think other people should step into

24:48
situations where they're not sure if they can bring their full self in because they're not sure if they'll be accepted? I think the first question you have to

24:55
ask yourself is what does that mean to bring my full self to work? because it sure doesn't mean bring your full self

25:01
to work. I mean, if I've had a really bad day or month and it's been really

25:07
hard, probably not professionally appropriate to lead with that all day

25:12
long in the same ratio of how I experienced it. Like, no, that's not

25:18
I think over time people really do want to be known. Um, but the the workplace

25:24
is not primarily a therapeutic place. Although lots of good things can happen

25:30
in your character development if you do it right in faith friendly, faith unfriendly, it doesn't matter. Um, I

25:37
think there are limits to what it means to bring your full self to work. It's a little bit like can you have it all? Well, no. Like why do we keep asking

25:43
that question? The answer is no. But I want to show up with

25:50
an authentic version of myself. And I think part of how that starts is admitting to mistakes. Um, moving to

25:58
help other people. I just a few years ago hired a woman onto our team. And when I checked her references, all three

26:03
people said the same thing in different ways. She is the busiest person on the team. She is the first person to ask

26:09
other people if they need help. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, send her to me." and she has played that out for eight years

26:16
on our team. So, first of all, if you want to bring a more authentic version of yourself, the

26:22
first thing is do good work. Work hard. Get your job done. If you make mistakes

26:28
or need help, ask for it. Raise other people up. Um, if you're in a leadership

26:34
position on your team, invite other people to tell their stories. You tell your story. care about that person's

26:40
son's basketball game last night or so and so's grandmother just passed away.

26:46
Bring humanity to the workplace so that not just you but everybody gets to do a

26:52
little bit more in the direction of bringing a little bit more of myself to work. I love that perspective and and I think

26:58
that that's a great alternative to when people talk about bring your full self to work is that's such a good and

27:04
powerful perspective. One of the other things you talked about earlier was the importance of asking questions.

The Importance Of Listening And Asking Questions

27:10
You alluded to the importance of listening as well. And there's the right time to ask tons of questions, there's

27:16
the right time to listen. And maybe they go hand in hand. How do you know if you're supposed to be engaging and

27:21
asking questions or listening or is it just always some of both? Yeah, it's probably always some of both.

27:27
I mean certainly in a some kind of meetings it is the time to make decisions and to um ask the right

27:35
questions so that you get the right answers and make decisions and be pretty productive with that process. If every

27:42
single meeting you do is like that. Wow, I don't think I'd last very long on that team.

27:47
So I think I think our tendency for most people is to talk too much. Not

27:53
everybody. So, for those of us that fall into that category, how do I remind

27:59
myself when I walk into a meeting or if I'm in the middle of the meeting, might be time to stop talking, Nancy,

28:05
and ask somebody else a question so that they can give input. And it's hard to know. I I went to back-to-back meetings

28:12
one day and somebody just said, "Your ability to facilitate a meeting is unbelievable." And the next meeting the

28:17
lady said, "You're talking too much." I was like, you know, everybody's going to experience that differently. So you do

28:24
the best you can, but I think just the reminder to be quiet and listen

28:30
and then ask questions and then maybe say what you think and maybe if you can do that flow, it will help. And then

28:36
honestly, I think the best answer is ask your team. I've been thinking about my ability to listen and ask questions and

28:42
talk. Which would you say I'm the best at and which would you say I'm the worst at? What a great question for your team

28:48
to answer for you. Wow, that is a great question.

Ten Rapid-Fire Questions

28:55
Nancy, I want to finish with 10 rapidfire questions where I just ask you

29:00
something and you say the first thing that comes to mind. All right. Who's the first person you think of when

29:06
I say servant leadership? Max Dri. Five words that most describe you. Oh.

29:13
Um, enthusiastic, curious, uh,

29:23
lover of nature, uh, good friend, and I don't know the fifth. I don't

29:30
know. All right. Favorite book or movie? Oh my gosh. Yikes. Uh, out of Africa.

29:37
Oh. All right. Favorite food? Oh, Mexican. Hands down. I could eat it

29:42
every day. Favorite thing to do in your free time? Um, hike or surf? Um, I do one really

29:50
well and I do the other one very badly, but I love them both. What's a surprising fact about you?

29:58
Um, maybe that I just turned 70. Wow. Yeah. I didn't see that coming.

30:05
Yeah. Favorite place you've been? Wow, that's hard because I love to

30:11
travel. Boy, that's a really hard one. Off the top of my head, I'm going to say India.

30:18
Wow. Just fascinated with India. Where is somewhere you want to go that you have not yet visited?

30:24
Um, Patagonia and Antarctica. French Polynesian. Sorry, I'm getting more than one answer there.

30:30
No, that's good. What's the best advice you've ever gotten? Uh,

30:38
slow down. Slow down. All right. And finally, why do you think

Importance Of A Podcast On Servant Leadership

30:43
a podcast on servant leadership could be important for people? Just imagine what the world could be

30:50
like if more leaders took 20 minutes a week to think about how can

30:58
I be a servant leader. Just imagine the changing face of corporate America and

31:04
nonprofit America. Wow. Yeah. Well, Nancy, I am so thankful that you

Closing

31:12
joined us on the podcast. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, and I hope people go follow you, read your content,

31:17
because it's impacted so many millions of people around the country and around the world, myself included.

31:23
Good. Good. I'm glad. Thanks for having me, Chris. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Servant Leadership

31:29
Podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard, please give it a thumbs up and leave a comment below. Don't forget to subscribe

31:37
and hit the notification bell to never miss an update. Be sure to check out the servantleershippodcast.org

31:43
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