Opening Question

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Do you think that there is more still to

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discover than what we already have

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discovered or do you think we've already

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discovered the majority of discoveries

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that will happen?

Introducing Dr. Zahi Hawass

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I want to tell you and this will be a

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surprise to you.

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Today on the servant leadership podcast

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we're joined by Dr. Zahi Hawas. Dr. Dr.

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Hawas is one of the most influential

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archaeologists in modern history and the

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former minister of antiquities for

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Egypt. Over decades of leadership, he

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has overseen some of the most important

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discoveries ever made, including major

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tombs, ancient cities, and

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groundbreaking research that reshaped

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how the world understands the pyramids

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and ancient Egyptian civilization.

Leadership and Mentorship

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Beyond the discoveries, Dr. Howas has

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led at a national and global level,

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mentoring generations of archaeologists,

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transforming how Egypt protects and

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presents its heritage and insisting on

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integrity, fairness, and truth in

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leadership. His work has taken him

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across the world, earned him numerous

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international honors and made him one of

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the most recognized voices in

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archaeology today. Dr. Zahi, thank you

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for joining us on the servant leadership

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podcast.

Career Beginnings

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You are welcome. You have had a career

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that every kid I think in the whole

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world dreams of having. How did you

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first get into archaeology?

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No, it has a story. When I was uh

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young boy, I was dreaming to be a

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lawyer.

Switching to Archaeology

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But actually when I

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joined I went to faculty of of law to

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become a lawyer. I was young. I was 15

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years and a half. And when I did uh buy

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the books of law and I went to the dorm,

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I found out that I will never continue

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to study law. It was boring.

Discovering Passion for Archaeology

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Then I did go and I changed from faculty

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of law to faculty of arts. In f of arts

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there was many departments

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and I I really do not know what I can

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choose but they told me there is a new

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department is called archaeology open.

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I said when I graduate from this

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archaeology what do I do? They say you

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can translate to become a translator.

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I said okay I stayed for years studying

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archaeology.

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I hated it. I did not like it at all.

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And I was not a good student. I used to

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pass just to pass. And I finished in my

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archaeology department in the age of 19

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and a half.

First Job in Antiquities

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This was in 1967.

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In 1969,

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the government used to give a job to

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anyone who graduate from a college. They

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gave me a job as an inspector of

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antiquities

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in the antiquities department. When I

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went to join the antiquities department,

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I did not like the people. They were

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really lazy. And I and I'm I said I'm

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not going to be like these people.

Finding His Love for Archaeology

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Then I tried to study to be a diplomat.

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I failed

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and I tried to move from antiquities to

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go to the ministry of tourism. I could

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not do that. I came back to the

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department of archaeology and I met the

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head of the department and he said

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uh a month ago I signed a decree for you

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to go to do excavation

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in such a site. I said no I'm not going

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to leave Cairo and go to do this

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excavation.

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He said, "If you don't go, I will cut 15

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days of your salary."

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I was afraid.

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I took my bag. I went to the excavation

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site. I was miserable.

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And I

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did not even know what's mean

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excavation. I had no training.

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I was sitting in the tent and one of the

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workmen came to tell me that the

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overseer of the workman would like you

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to come because they found a tomb.

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I came and the overseer of the workman

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asked me to sit down.

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I did. He gave me a brush. He said, "I

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want you to clean in the middle of the

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tomb, and I will clean in the back of

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the tomb." When I began to clean in the

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middle of the tomb, I found in the

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middle a statue.

Education and Career Growth

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And that was a beautiful statue of

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Aphroditi

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made of fiance.

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And while I was cleaning, I said, "I

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found my love. I had passion."

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Wow. for archaeology. But when I had

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passion for archaeology, I found out

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that I know nothing. I don't know. I

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know nothing. How can I complete this

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passion? Then I did join

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Kai University. I took a diploma in

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Egyptology

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and I was lucky to get a fullbride

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citizenship and I went to University of

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Pennsylvania. I stayed seven years. The

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seven years in Philadelphia, it changed

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my life. It gave me really idea about a

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vision, about writing,

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about lecturing.

Leadership and Achievements

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uh and also it made me to feel strong in

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my personality to be a leader

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and that's really how when I became the

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head of antiquities I changed

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archaeology

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because of my leadership.

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Well and that's one of the things that I

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so admire about you. It's not just that

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you've discovered so many amazing

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things, but you have led in a space that

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the whole world is curious about. I as

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you've been in this position of

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leadership over decades, what are some

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of the biggest takeaways that you've

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learned that have helped you become a

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better leader?

Leadership Lessons

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You know, the most important thing when

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I became the head of antiquities,

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Egyptians sometime they like to gossip

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and they like to come to talk about

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other people. If you are the boss and

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you'll open your ears to everyone,

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you'll never work. And this why the

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first decision that I made, someone an

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important person in the department came

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to me to tell me something about someone

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else. Then I ran the bill. I asked my

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assistant. I said, "Bring this person."

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And this person came. I told him, "This

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man is saying this about you."

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They never anyone came to ask me or to

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talk about anyone. Everyone worked. And

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the other thing that I did learn is to

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bring young people around me and to

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teach them how to make projects and give

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them a full credit, a full authority to

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make decisions. And even they make

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mistakes, I will not punish them. And

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this why I had around me 84

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young people who are now the best in

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archaeology because of my training. And

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number three, you know, I when I became

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the head of antiquities, I made

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something good. I said I need to restore

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human being before I restore stones.

Restoring People and Heritage

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means that the archaeologists and the

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restorators you have to raise to give

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them a good health care to give them a

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good salary then they can really take

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care of the stones take care of the

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restoration and that was really

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something that made my leadership to be

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in the top and also at the same time is

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to be honest

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because my father when I was young he

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gave me one advice and he told me if you

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put your finger

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under the teeth of anyone, they will cut

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it. And I told him, my dad, what's me?

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He said, to be honest, if you take

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anything from anyone, this person can

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ruin your life. And this why I always

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people accuse me all the time of things.

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I always smile because I know that no

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one really can get me because all the

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time I was really honest. And also you

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have to be fair to everyone. You cannot

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give privilege to someone and don't give

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the others. I made rules for the foreign

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and the Egyptian expeditions that

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everyone has to follow.

Bringing Archaeology to Life

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And also I also brought

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archaeology to life to educate Egyptians

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about their heritage. And I made many

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young people to love their heritage.

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When I did the live program,

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I sent the robot in the pyramids. I

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decided in 2002 to make it live.

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I want to show the whole world that I'm

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not hiding anything as people accuse me.

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Then you can see many things built my

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personality in a way that the 12 years

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that I ruled antiquities,

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people still talk about this until

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today. And and the other thing also when

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people get retired they go to bed then

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they sleep and they never work.

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And when I left my job today the second

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day was more important when I retired

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than before. I left my job in 2011.

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But since 2011 until today I traveled

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everywhere.

Continued Influence and Recognition

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You know, I was in Chicago last uh I

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think May. I gave a a lecture in the

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convention center for 2,500 people. I

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gave 33 lectures in 33 cities last

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summer in America and Canada. Then I

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also uh got many prizes

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everywhere. Every country give me a

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prize

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because of the work that they did. I

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took more than 12 honorary decree from

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many countries America and Russia and

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China everywhere

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and also uh I wrote books and I will

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tell you when you become famous I think

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in my country or any country you'll find

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always people attack you

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but I learned

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if I did not find anyone attack me

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I I get upset means I did nothing today.

Handling Criticism

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And I'll tell you a story about

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attacking.

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Once I found out that New Yorker

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magazine, you know this magazine is very

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famous, New Yorker wrote an article

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about me, 17 pages.

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And I found half of the article

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was from people attacking me and the

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other half people talking good about me.

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And I was upset. Why people attack me? I

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was traveling with Omar Sharif, the

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famous Egyptian actor. Do you know Omar

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Sharif?

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Uh, just by name.

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Yeah. You have you seen Dr. Zago

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the movie?

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No.

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No.

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Have you seen Lawrence?

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Yeah.

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Okay. He's the main actor with better.

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And Omar was a good friend of mine.

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And he said, "Why are you upset?" I

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said, "Look, why these people are

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attacking me?"

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He said, "Let me read this magazine." He

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read the magazine and he came back to me

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to say, "I would like New Yorker to

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write 100 pages bad about me because bad

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publicity is a good publicity." The

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other advice that I give young people

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that when I see someone attacking me,

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I look at my library and the books that

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I wrote. If I put the books above each

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other, they will be taller than the

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person who attacked me. And this why I

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am like the train. I never look behind

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me. I always look up

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and work and do something.

Mentoring Young Leaders

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And that's really why people think that

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I'm successful. Well, I think when we're

0:13:41
talking about leadership with people,

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one of the things that we look at is how

0:13:44
many leaders have come in their wake and

0:13:46
come after them. And you have been able

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to train and teach so many amazing

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leaders. It's unbelievable. When you're

0:13:53
going to mentor all of these younger

0:13:55
people, what are some of the things that

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you're looking for in people? Because a

0:14:00
lot of people would be coming to you,

0:14:02
many more than you could accept, to ask

0:14:03
for mentorship. You know

0:14:07
I tell them

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passion

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two important things two advice you have

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to have passion

0:14:17
if you have passion for anything

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is small you make it big

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in my country people doesn't understand

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what's been archaeology when I say I'm

0:14:28
an archaeologist people can laugh but

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look how my passion made me a star

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now not only in Egypt but everywhere and

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the second thing that I advise them

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don't go in a fight with anyone defend

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yourself strongly and be like the train

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go forward and never come back this is

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the most two important advice that I

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give to young people

Success in Archaeology

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you've had some amazing discoveries and

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it's not just amazing pieces that you've

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discovered but whole villages and other

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things that you've been able to discover

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that nobody else has. As you're going

0:15:09
through that process, are you thinking

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in your mind today is the day? Because

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it's a long career and it feels like a

0:15:17
very hard job where people work for

0:15:19
years without success and you've been

0:15:21
fortunate to have a lot of success.

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You know, if you work hard

0:15:29
with passion, you would have success.

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I am a lucky archaeologist

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and

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I think the only most important thing

0:15:41
for in archaeologist you have to have a

0:15:44
vision.

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You have to think of where you can dig

0:15:50
and who can be your assistant. And this

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is why in my excavation now in Luxer

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um we found a maj a major important

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discovery that was chosen by our

0:16:05
magazine in New York as the most

0:16:08
important discovery in the world in year

0:16:13
Now I'm searching for a royal tomb in

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the valley of the kings and it will

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happen. I'm telling you now,

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maybe today, tomorrow, in one month, in

0:16:27
one year, we'll discover this tomb. In

0:16:30
Sakara, we found a new pyramid. Now, we

0:16:35
found a royal tomb of a son of a king.

0:16:39
I'm so I'm also using DNA and Zeta scan

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to discover the mommy of Queen Neerti

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and her daughter

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who married King.

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We are searching with DNA to find out

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how to died.

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I found the value of the golden mummies.

0:17:02
A major important discovery.

0:17:05
I discovered the tombs of the pyramid

0:17:07
builders. That was really a good answer

0:17:11
against aliens. Look at this Joe Zorogen

0:17:15
who really believes in things like when

0:17:19
I did the interview with him. He wanted

0:17:23
to show that I don't believe in science

0:17:26
because of these two Italians who

0:17:29
published an article that underneath the

0:17:34
second pyramid are a big city and I told

0:17:38
them these people are using

0:17:41
uh are using uh tomographic radar.

0:17:46
Tomographic radar shows only about 60

0:17:50
feet under the ground. It will never

0:17:52
show 6,000 feet and the base of the

0:17:56
second pyramid is made of solar is made

0:17:58
of solar drop. But he believes on that

0:18:02
and this why we had big argument and he

0:18:06
I did not really like this show at all

0:18:09
because if you are a doing a show you

0:18:12
you cannot be convinced of one side you

0:18:15
have to listen to all the sides and

0:18:17
after that give your opinion because

0:18:19
look at people who say that aliens built

0:18:22
the pyramids. Do we have any evidence

0:18:25
about that? People who say that pyramids

0:18:29
built by lost civilization, do we have

0:18:32
any evidence about that? No. But on the

0:18:35
other hand, we have we found the quarry

0:18:39
location from the great pyram. We found

0:18:42
the tombs of the pyramid builders. We

0:18:45
found a great discovery, a papyrie that

0:18:49
telling us for the first time about how

0:18:52
the pyramid was built. giving

0:18:54
information about the pyramid and the

0:18:56
workman for the first time. How can you

0:18:59
ignore all of this and just go and talk

0:19:02
about nonsense?

Understanding Pyramid Construction

0:19:05
Well, I feel like a lot of times people

0:19:07
wonder how in the world with the did

0:19:10
they build the pyramids like it's just

0:19:11
such an amazing thing. How how did it

0:19:13
happen?

0:19:14
We have all the evidence. First of all,

0:19:18
the major problem that people only look

0:19:21
at the great pyramid of Kufu. We have

0:19:26
12 pyramids in Egypt. Why Kufu pyramid

0:19:31
is more accurate in size than any other

0:19:34
pyramid? Because Giza plateau that

0:19:38
contain the great pyramid is a part of

0:19:41
the mukatan formation.

0:19:44
This geology of the mukata formation

0:19:48
divided to three levels.

0:19:51
Level one and two in the bottom are very

0:19:55
bad stones. But level three is the best

0:19:59
quality of the thoughts that no plateau

0:20:04
in Egypt has the same quality of the

0:20:07
thoughts. And this level are the level

0:20:11
that the ancient Egyptian used to build

0:20:14
the great pyram. We found the following.

0:20:19
We found that the Egyptian when they

0:20:21
draw on the ground a square base of the

0:20:26
pyramid, they cut in the solid rock in

0:20:30
the four sides until they made the base

0:20:34
of the pyramid to be 28 ft only of solid

0:20:39
rock, no stones.

0:20:42
And after that, we found out that the

0:20:45
location

0:20:46
of the quarry located 1,000 ft to the

0:20:51
south of the base of the pyramid. And we

0:20:54
found that the only way for the ramp

0:20:57
that the Egyptian to be built to to

0:21:02
transport the stone on that ramp has to

0:21:06
be coming from the quarry to the south

0:21:09
west corner of the main pyram and I

0:21:12
excavated the root of this ramp and I

0:21:16
found under the ground left over of the

0:21:20
ramp. Then there were women who lived

0:21:24
and I found their tombs. They will come

0:21:28
and they were divided to three groups.

0:21:30
One group to cut the stones

0:21:34
by by by

0:21:36
durite

0:21:43
balls to smooth the stones. Others

0:21:47
transported the stones

0:21:50
on

0:21:52
was in census

0:21:54
to the pyramid

0:21:58
and around the pyramid they built an

0:22:02
external man.

0:22:04
You have to know if you try today to

0:22:08
build this pyramid you'll never do it

0:22:11
because are you going to hire

0:22:14
10,000 workmen a day to work for 28

0:22:18
years? You will never do that.

0:22:21
But the three millions who lived in

0:22:23
Egypt in that time participated in

0:22:26
building the pyramid

0:22:28
by sending workforce

0:22:31
the households in every village. They

0:22:34
sent workforce and food to help the

0:22:37
king. In return they did not pay taxes.

0:22:41
And I we published you know my friend

0:22:44
Mark Leer who's an American lives in

0:22:47
Boston. We stayed 20 years

0:22:51
writing a book about Giza and actually

0:22:56
uh we work it together

0:22:59
around the things and the great pyramid.

0:23:02
And this book it has all the information

0:23:05
that any

0:23:08
paramediates any guy who believes in

0:23:12
this crazy theories if you read this

0:23:14
book you will never you will never

0:23:17
believe in anything like this.

Future Discoveries

0:23:19
Yeah. I mean I've read some of your work

0:23:20
and it is unbelievable. One thing I

0:23:23
always wonder reading your stuff and I I

0:23:25
haven't seen you talk about this and

0:23:27
maybe it's because it's a crazy

0:23:28
question, but do you think that there is

0:23:31
more still to discover than what we

0:23:34
already have discovered or do you think

0:23:36
we've already discovered the majority of

0:23:39
discoveries that will happen?

0:23:41
I want to tell you and this will be a

0:23:43
surprise to you. We what we discovered

0:23:46
until now is only 30%.

0:23:52
Wow.

0:23:52
And still there is 70% buried underneath

0:23:56
the ground. And every day there is a

0:23:59
discovery every day. You know what's

0:24:02
amazing about Egypt? That modern Egypt

0:24:05
is built above ancient Egypt. You can in

0:24:09
Cairo dig in the courtyard of your home

0:24:12
and discover something. In every

0:24:15
village, in every city, underneath the

0:24:18
houses, there's antiquities.

0:24:20
And this really what's amazing about

0:24:24
Egypt.

Lessons from Ancient Egyptians

0:24:24
Wow. When when we talk about leadership,

0:24:27
I know uh many many hundreds thousands

0:24:31
of people have learned from you. I'm

0:24:34
curious what you have learned from

0:24:36
ancient Egyptians and studying them

0:24:39
about leadership.

0:24:40
I did learn many things. Number one

0:24:45
is the idea of the national project.

0:24:48
When you have a national project that

0:24:51
you make everyone to believe in it and

0:24:54
interested in it, you will make it. Even

0:24:57
it's something miracle you will do it.

0:25:00
And the second important thing

0:25:04
is the ancient Egyptian believed in

0:25:06
something called Matt M a T. And Matt

0:25:11
was the goodest of justice and truth.

0:25:16
Every king had to swear in front of the

0:25:19
god that he ruled the country with

0:25:22
justice and truth. If you are a leader

0:25:26
and you are justice

0:25:28
to everyone and you are fair to

0:25:31
everyone, you will be a great leader.

0:25:35
And this why I think the two important

0:25:37
things that I did learn from the ancient

0:25:40
Egypt about leadership, it made people

0:25:44
to like me and it made people whatever I

0:25:48
go in modern Egypt or in any country

0:25:52
people always uh people always uh

0:25:56
respect me and that really is because I

0:25:59
was always fair and justice to everyone

0:26:03
and this why you I'm coming to the

0:26:05
states in January. I'm giving a token

0:26:08
ball museum in Santana on the 11th of uh

0:26:13
of January. But on the 10th in the

0:26:17
Leo Theater in Santa Ana, they're

0:26:20
showing a film about my life produced.

Film About His Life

0:26:25
Wow.

0:26:25
By an American TV company, Jeff Roth

0:26:29
from LA. And I'm really happy that my

0:26:32
life, this is the third one about my

0:26:36
life. And I'm really happy that this

0:26:39
film will show to the younger people how

0:26:44
can you be successful?

0:26:46
How can you accomplish things in your

0:26:49
life? How can you make your name to be

0:26:53
engraved in gold in history?

Global Fascination with Egypt

0:27:00
It's interesting. I feel like people

0:27:02
around the world have this draw to Egypt

0:27:06
and to ancient Egypt specifically and

0:27:09
just roots trace back there. So much of

0:27:11
history is based there. What do you

0:27:13
think it is that compels all of the

0:27:16
world to be curious about this? There's

0:27:18
a lot of amazing people discovering

0:27:20
amazing things all around the world that

0:27:22
nobody cares about, but everyone cares

0:27:25
about this so deeply. I want this

0:27:28
question can be answered. Are you

0:27:30
married?

0:27:31
Yeah.

0:27:32
How do you have children?

0:27:34
Yeah.

0:27:34
How old?

0:27:36
Uh, seven and five. Okay. Two boys.

0:27:38
I want you to go to the seven years old.

0:27:41
And if you tell him Egypt, they will

0:27:43
tell you the pyramid of Kufu. The

0:27:47
Sphinx. It's secret.

0:27:50
There's something underneath the Sphinx.

0:27:53
Mas

0:27:55
magic.

0:27:56
And these four things that every person

0:28:02
in every country talk about them,

0:28:05
mention about them. And this why when I

0:28:08
when I came to give this tour in the

0:28:10
states last uh summer, I had 2,000 to

0:28:14
3,000 people in every city.

0:28:17
I'm coming back in 2027 to do a big tour

0:28:21
in every city in America and Canada

0:28:25
because people love ancient Egypt

0:28:28
because of if you talk about mummies. I

0:28:30
scanned the mummies

0:28:33
and we know about every mummy how it

0:28:36
died mummification

0:28:39
to the only intact tomb that found with

0:28:43
gold 5,398

0:28:46
objects were found inside the tomb. The

0:28:49
things hidden underneath the things

0:28:53
great the great pyram of Kufu. how it

0:28:55
was built. All of these questions are

0:28:59
making ancient Egypt tourist

0:29:03
inside the hearts of people everywhere.

Most Impressive Discovery

0:29:08
What do you think has been the most

0:29:10
amazing discovery in all of the

0:29:13
discoveries? Maybe it's one that you

0:29:14
discovered or maybe it's something else.

0:29:16
What is most impressed you? I think the

0:29:18
most important because in ancient Egypt

0:29:20
when you come you will you will visit

0:29:24
tombs, pyramids and temples but the city

0:29:27
the golden city that I found

0:29:31
in Egypt and Luxor is really important

0:29:35
because it shows the life of the people

0:29:38
who made this realization. It tells you

0:29:40
about workshops, royal workshops, the

0:29:43
artisans. It tells us for the first time

0:29:46
about the life of the people who made

0:29:49
this great civilization in the time of

0:29:51
the golden age, the time of the great

0:29:55
king I the third, the father of.

0:29:59
And the two of them believed on the son

0:30:03
behind on the power of the son behind

0:30:07
the sun called aton. the one God done.

0:30:11
And this discovery is really a major

0:30:14
discovery in my life.

Rapidfire Questions

0:30:16
I'm just so interested in this. This is

0:30:17
unbelievable everything you've done. I'm

0:30:19
thankful that you were willing to be on

0:30:20
the podcast. Can I finish with 10

0:30:23
rapidfire questions where you say the

0:30:25
first thing that comes to mind?

0:30:26
Of course.

0:30:27
All right. Who is the first person you

0:30:30
think of when I say servant leadership?

0:30:33
My father.

0:30:36
Five words that most describe you.

0:30:38
Outspoken,

0:30:40
fair,

0:30:41
love people.

0:30:42
Favorite book or author?

0:30:45
You know I my favorite book

0:30:49
is Fountain Head. Really? I don't

0:30:53
remember the author.

0:30:56
You know, this mo was a movie.

0:30:59
Uh

0:30:59
I'll look it up. I'm curious now.

0:31:01
Was a movie uh acted by Gary Cooper.

0:31:06
Oh, cool. long time ago there was a

0:31:09
she's a lady her name is something Rand

0:31:13
in Rand in Rand you know why book

0:31:17
because in this book

0:31:20
an architect who's not famous designed a

0:31:23
building but he could not convince

0:31:26
anyone to do this building and he gave

0:31:29
this building to a an architect who's

0:31:32
known

0:31:34
and he told him I want to give you this

0:31:37
one, but you have to do everything on

0:31:40
it. Don't make anything bad. You have to

0:31:44
do this this like this.

0:31:47
But the guy the guy took it and made

0:31:50
something else.

0:31:52
The good architect, he had to bomb the

0:31:57
project because it is not something that

0:32:00
he designed.

0:32:02
And the court case in this film is the

0:32:06
most important thing I've heard in my

0:32:08
life. It shows if someone has ethics, if

0:32:13
someone believe in something,

0:32:16
he destroyed the building because the

0:32:19
guy cheated him.

0:32:21
And that's my favorite book.

0:32:24
Wow. I'll check that one out. Favorite

0:32:27
food.

0:32:27
I love really Chinese food. I love it.

0:32:32
All right. Favorite thing to do in your

0:32:34
free time?

0:32:35
I go to the gym and see a movie

0:32:38
sometimes.

0:32:39
All right. What is a surprising fact

0:32:42
about you?

0:32:44
If someone insult me, this is the end of

0:32:47
his life.

Favorite Places and Advice

0:32:52
Favorite place you've been. I love Los

0:32:55
Angeles

0:32:57
because I I taught at UCLA and this is

0:33:00
the city that I have lots of friends and

0:33:02
I go there all the time.

0:33:05
I know you've traveled the world, but is

0:33:06
there anywhere in the world that you

0:33:08
want to go that you have not been

0:33:09
before?

0:33:10
India.

0:33:13
What's the best advice you've ever

0:33:15
received?

0:33:17
My father advice, don't

0:33:20
put your finger under the teeth of

0:33:23
anyone. This made me brave and not to be

0:33:28
afraid of anyone in my life because I'm

0:33:31
the only one on earth when I go to bed,

0:33:34
I sleep after one minute because there

0:33:37
is nothing

0:33:38
on my mind against anyone. I live in

0:33:42
peace with myself.

Importance of Servant Leadership

0:33:45
Wow. All right. And finally, we talk a

0:33:47
lot about servant leadership on this

0:33:49
podcast, as you know. Why do you think

0:33:52
it's important for people to learn about

0:33:54
servant leadership?

0:33:56
If you don't have that, you will never

0:33:58
succeed.

0:34:00
That will give you the road of success.

0:34:05
Without good leadership, no success.

Closing Remarks

0:34:11
Well, Dr. Zahi, it is such an honor to

0:34:14
have you on the podcast and I'm thankful

0:34:16
for all you've done for the world and

0:34:17
thank you for your willingness to share

0:34:19
on this

Podcast Conclusion

34:20
Thank you very much. I really enjoyed

34:22
talking to you.

Episode Closing Remarks

34:23
Thank you for listening to this episode

34:25
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

34:28
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34:29
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