Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast we welcome Dr. James Hewitt — a human performance scientist who has spent the last two decades helping the world’s most demanding performers do their best work without burning out in the process. His work has taken him across nineteen Formula 1 world championships, into the offices of Fortune 500s, and onto stages all around the world. He’s the author of Regenerative Performance, a book born out of his own cancer diagnosis and the realization that the “more effort, more optimization” approach he had built his career on wasn’t actually how the world’s true long-term performers operated. Join us as we talk about peak performance, burnout, and better understand why most leaders are dangerously bad judges of their own capacity.
Episode Transcript
Human Impairment Awareness
0:00
Humans are really bad judges of how
0:02
impaired they are. And you know, for
0:04
most of human history, that was probably
0:05
adaptive because we just needed to carry
0:06
on. But the way it shows up now is that
0:09
um you’re in the meeting feeling like
0:11
you’re super sharp and you’re absolutely
0:13
on it. And everyone’s looking at you
0:14
thinking, “What is this guy talking
0:15
about?”
Introducing Dr. James Hewitt
0:23
Today on the servant leadership podcast,
0:24
we welcome Dr. James Hwitt, a human
0:27
performance scientist who has spent the
0:29
last two decades helping [music] the
0:30
world’s most demanding performers do
0:32
their best work without burning out in
0:34
the process. His work has taken him
0:36
across 19 Formula 1 world championships
0:39
into the offices of Fortune 500s and
0:00:41
onto stages all around the world. He’s
0:44
the author of Regenerative Performance,
0:46
a book [music] born out of his own
0:48
cancer diagnosis and the realization
0:50
that the more effort, more optimization
0:52
approach he had built his career on
0:54
wasn’t actually how the world’s true
0:56
long-term performers operated. Join us
0:58
as we talk about peak performance,
1:00
burnout, [music] and better understand
1:02
why most leaders are dangerously bad
1:04
judges of their own capacity.
Welcome Dr. James Hewitt
1:06
James, thank you for being on the
1:07
servant leadership podcast.
1:09
Oh, you’re welcome. It’s great to be
1:11
here.
Defining Human Performance Scientist
1:12
I I am so excited. Uh for people who
1:15
hear an awesome intro about you and then
1:17
we dive into the podcast, they’re
1:18
probably like, “What is a human
1:20
performance scientist, can you explain
1:22
what that even means to people and then
1:25
maybe the journey that got you there?”
Origin of the Title
1:28
Yeah, absolutely. So, a human
1:30
performance scientist originally was a
1:32
title that I just invented for myself
1:34
and it seems to become quite popular
1:35
now. There’s all kinds of human
1:36
performance scientists on LinkedIn, but
1:38
at the time I was working for a company
1:40
um in uh in Switzerland actually. It was
1:43
um a human performance company and we
1:44
were providing services to um elite
1:47
athletes, business people um uh across
1:50
19 Formula 1 world championships and um
1:53
and I had to try and figure out how do I
1:55
kind of position position myself in this
1:57
company and also um brand myself for the
2:00
clients and the customers that we work
2:01
with. And so I was really responsible
2:03
for generating the ideas, validating the
2:06
ideas, working with the team to come up
2:08
with approaches that would support
2:10
sustained high performance for these
2:13
elite performers that we worked with.
Fascination with Performance
2:15
And so I was really fascinated with this
2:17
question. you know, what separates the
2:19
people who perform their best under the
2:21
most intense pressure from the people
2:23
who really struggle and fall apart and
2:26
how can we help people be in that uh
2:28
that former group, you know, the group
2:29
who who perform well under pressure. And
2:32
so, as I was thinking about this and it
2:34
was all focused around human performance
2:36
and I was taking this scientific
2:37
approach and I was doing a PhD looking
2:40
at human performance, I said, you know,
2:42
I’m just going to call myself a human
2:43
performance scientist. It sounds pretty
2:44
cool and it kind of does what it says on
2:46
the tin. Uh but if you really wanted to
2:48
distill it down and say what is a human
2:50
performance scientist, what do they do?
Role of a Performance Scientist
2:52
Um for me it’s someone who describes
2:56
what someone is trying to achieve that
2:57
performance, the demands that they’re
2:59
going to face, understands where that
3:01
person is right now, figures out the gap
3:04
between the current state and the state
3:06
that they need to be in, and then builds
3:07
a plan to bridge that gap. And the
3:09
scientific approach is that it
3:11
recognizes that you probably won’t
3:13
figure out exactly what you need to do
3:14
straight away. You’re going to have to
3:16
come up with a hypothesis. You’re going
3:17
to have to test it. You’re going to have
3:18
to measure it. You’re going to have to
3:19
adjust. And you repeat and you repeat
3:21
and you repeat. And in an ideal world,
3:23
you bridge that gap from where they are,
3:24
where they need to be, and they’ve
3:26
achieved their goals, whether they’re a
3:28
Formula 1 driver or a Fortune 500
3:30
executive.
Early Career and Cycling
3:31
Wow. Yeah. I mean, like, this is just
3:34
such an interesting topic in industry
3:37
compared to other things I’ve talked
3:39
about because a lot of times when people
3:40
hear it, they might initially be like,
3:42
“Well, that sounds made up. Now, it’s
3:44
confirmed that the title’s made up, but
3:44
but the results are real. Talk about I
3:48
know you go into big companies and we’re
3:49
going to get into that in the consulting
3:51
you do, but also talk about like how you
3:53
saw this in the early days from your
3:56
cycling career from the F1 days of like
3:58
how you saw performance actually make a
4:01
difference.
Pursuing Cycling Dreams
4:03
So when uh this journey started for me
4:05
in my own athletic career as you alluded
4:08
to um so back in the early 2000s um I uh
4:12
really my dream was to become a
4:14
professional cyclist and at that time I
4:16
was living in the UK um but there
4:18
weren’t the the pathways that are
4:20
available now for young athletes. So
4:22
there’s some really wellestablished
4:24
development pathways now um which can
4:27
provide uh young athletes, young racing
4:29
cyclist, I was a road cyclist with a
4:31
route to understand how they can uh make
4:33
their way up this ladder to a
4:35
professional career in the sport. At
4:37
that time it was really chaotic.
4:38
Basically you had to kind of win a few
4:40
races, someone had to notice you. Maybe
4:43
you were lucky enough to get the
4:44
opportunity to get a ride with a a team
4:47
on the continent on the European
4:49
continent. uh maybe in France or Spain
4:50
or somewhere and you basically just
4:52
packed your bags, moved out there and
4:54
see whether you can win some races there
4:56
as well. And so at the age of 19, that’s
4:59
what I did. I got this opportunity to do
5:01
this trial with this um at this really
5:04
small regional French team in this tiny
5:05
little town called Limu in the south of
5:07
France, which is next to a city called
5:09
Kakasong, which some people might have
5:10
heard of. Um and so 19 years old, I
5:13
packed my bags and I uh moved to the
5:15
south of France to pursue this this
5:17
dream. But I’d always had quite a
5:19
scientific background and I also
5:21
realized that I wasn’t the most talented
5:23
athlete. So um I realized I needed to
5:26
really apply science and technology to
5:28
try to maximize my potential. So I was a
5:32
very early adopter. Uh you know heart
5:33
rate monitors, things that measure the
5:35
intensity of your physical effort with
5:36
your heart rate were already used by a
5:38
lot of people. But I was one of the
5:39
first people to get something called a
5:40
power meter which is a device that
5:42
measures the mechanical work you do on
5:44
the bike. the actual the physical power
5:46
output and started to try and understand
5:48
how we fit these different aspects
5:50
together. But the guiding philosophy
5:52
during this time was this belief that if
5:55
you just put in enough effort and you
5:57
combine it with this scientific and
5:59
technological optimization that you will
6:01
achieve the results that you’re hoping
6:03
for and and so that was my real dominant
6:06
philosophy, the drive behind what I did.
Transition to Business World
6:09
And for a while it worked quite well.
6:11
you know, I just put in more and more
6:12
effort and I was optimizing and
6:14
optimizing. Um, now in the end,
6:16
unfortunately, I kind of realized that
6:18
my cycling career wasn’t going to reach
6:19
the heights that I hoped for. So, I
6:22
decided that I was going to go back to
6:23
university in the UK, study sport
6:26
science, uh, and that I was going to go
6:27
and work with professional athletes and
6:30
professional cyclists. Um but there was
6:32
a there was a wrinkle in that plan and
6:35
the wrinkle was related to the fact that
6:37
um professional cyclists didn’t have any
6:39
money to pay me as a coach and I should
6:41
have known that really because I was a
6:43
full-time racing cyclist. I raced
6:44
full-time for a few seasons in the south
6:46
of France. You know, I won a few races.
6:48
I was never that great, but I raced
6:50
full-time and I couldn’t afford to pay a
6:52
coach. The person who coached me coached
6:53
me did it for free. I like ah this is
6:56
this is problematic. Um, so I kept
6:58
working with a few pros, but I realized
7:00
that the people who I could make some
7:02
money from, uh, were these guys, mainly
7:04
guys, living in London, where we were
7:06
based at the time, who wanted to be
7:08
Lance Armstrong at the weekend. You
7:10
know, this is like pre Lance Armstrong,
7:13
Oprah admission of using
7:15
performance-enhancing drugs. This was
7:17
mid 2000s. Lance is still doing great.
7:21
And uh all these guys worked 80 hours a
7:24
week in the city as management
7:26
consultants, finance professionals,
7:27
technology workers and wanted to go and
7:29
you ride 180 miles every weekend. And so
7:32
I started to work with these people and
7:35
um and try and optimize their physical
7:38
performance. But I realized in working
7:40
with these people that unless I could
7:42
account for the load associated with
7:44
their working life, couldn’t plan their
7:46
physical training effectively. If they
7:48
had an epic week at work, it was a
7:50
finance professional who was reaching
7:53
the end of a difficult transaction, then
7:56
it was going to be impossible for them
7:57
to um sustain the same load physically.
7:58
And I saw this because week to week I
8:03
could prescribe the same training and
8:05
one week they would finish the session
8:07
perfectly and the next week they’d
8:09
really struggle. And when I spoke to
8:10
them, it actually turns out that the
8:12
difference wasn’t something going on in
8:13
their body. It was the stress
8:15
psychologically. it was the load of
8:17
their work. And so I began to build this
8:19
model of trying to understand how to
8:21
combine psychological and physical
8:24
effort really with the aim of trying to
8:26
improve their cycling performance. But
8:28
that led to this fascination with the
8:30
workplace. And you that was really the
8:33
genesis of this transition into trying
8:35
to understand cognitive work and
8:38
thinking about cognitive work, the type
8:41
of work that an executive does for
8:43
example as a cognitive endurance
8:45
activity and actually use principles to
8:48
model that type of work taken from
8:50
endurance sport which is obviously a
8:52
physical endurance activity. And so that
8:55
was really the the kind of the
8:56
transition into the business world which
8:58
has continued. But I think one of the
8:59
biggest shifts that I’ve seen is, you
9:01
know, that idea was radical when I first
9:04
started to share it. This idea that we
9:07
think about cognitive work as an
9:08
endurance activity and uh understand how
9:11
to optimize workplace performance um and
9:14
and that our physical health might have
9:16
an impact on our psychological health
9:17
and our cognitive performance. No one
9:20
was really talking about that, but now
9:22
just go on LinkedIn, there’s a million
9:24
people talking about it. So I’m not
9:25
saying I invented it, but I was
9:27
definitely I’d say I was an early
9:28
adopter in that space.
Data-Driven Approach
9:30
Well, one of the things I love about how
9:32
you talk about it compared to other
9:35
people is your stuff is backed by data
9:38
and science. A lot of people who are
9:40
entering this space just talk about it
9:41
as theory and theoretical. Uh, I’ve even
9:44
seen you uh give a talk where you had
9:48
like I don’t even know what you call it,
9:49
but like an EEG contraption where like
9:52
you showed brain waves and stuff like of
9:54
what it actually looks like for
9:55
somebody’s brain to be performing. Talk
9:57
about like some of the data behind this,
10:00
not numbers, but just how even you look
10:02
at this because it really is data
10:04
driven.
Measuring Human Performance
10:06
Yeah. So, I’m I’m a complete data nerd
10:09
and um I think I wonder whether
10:11
sometimes that’s because um you know I I
10:15
don’t find it particularly intuitive to
10:17
understand humans. There’s probably some
10:20
diagnosis in there that I haven’t
10:21
received yet, you know, and so I’ve
10:23
always felt a little bit like I’m an
10:25
outsider looking in trying to figure out
10:26
what’s going on. And so I always kind of
10:28
watch people and try and you from a
10:30
young age I was like so how are these
10:32
people interacting with each other and
10:33
you what should I do in this situation
10:35
based on what they do? And so I’ve
10:36
always had this quite analytical
10:38
approach to uh trying to understand the
10:40
world and human interactions and
10:41
relationships and how everything fits
10:43
together. And so measuring that was just
10:45
a natural extension of a predisposition.
10:49
Um but when I started to work with
10:52
business people particularly um I
10:54
realized that just measuring their um
10:58
their working hours wasn’t going to be
11:00
sufficient. For example, I needed to
11:02
also understand what was going on in
11:04
their mind. psychology and then there
11:07
was also this implication of their
11:09
physiology um what was going on in their
11:11
body and different ways that we could we
11:13
could measure that. So I actually
11:15
adopted a a method um which was
11:17
originally pioneered in a clinical
11:19
context called digital phenotyping. And
11:22
that’s just the technical definition of
11:24
digital phenotyping is that um you use
11:27
often wearable devices, smart devices um
11:30
to measure the observable
11:32
characteristics of humans. And so those
11:35
observable characteristics I group them
11:38
generally as psychology, the mind,
11:39
physiology, the body and the brain as
11:42
part of that which is it’s all one. Um
11:44
and then also behavior, what we actually
11:46
do in the world. And so the data that I
11:48
gather um uses different methods to um
11:51
to capture data related to those three
11:53
categories, mash them together and try
11:56
and build up a picture of what’s going
11:57
on. So to give you a practical example
11:59
of that um psychologically I might use
12:02
some survey measures to get a sense of
12:04
how people are feeling and I might try
12:06
and understand using some validated
12:08
survey measures um how do they feel
12:11
about the the cognitive energy that
12:12
they’ve got and by that I mean um you
12:15
know when you’re sitting at your laptop
12:18
and you read the first line of the email
12:21
and you say
12:23
that hasn’t gone in I’ve got to read it
12:24
again and you got to read it again
12:26
that’s a sign your cognitive energy is
12:28
And there’s survey measures you can use
12:29
to capture that in a way that you can
12:31
put a number on. Um the other aspect of
12:33
it is how people feel about their
12:34
emotional energy. So to give you an
12:36
example of that um imagine you’re uh
12:39
sitting at your desk and you’re working
12:40
and a colleague comes by and they say
12:42
you Chris can can I just ask you
12:44
something for a minute and you
12:46
internally you’re like oh gosh I haven’t
12:49
got time for this and you care. you like
12:52
this person, you know it’s important to
12:53
them, but your emotional energy is low.
12:55
And again, we can use survey measures to
12:56
ask questions and put numbers on that.
12:59
And then finally, we might think about
13:00
your physical energy and how you feel
13:02
about your physical energy. And so an
13:04
example of that might be, you know, you
13:06
wake up in the morning, you get out of
13:07
bed, and you’re just like, oh my gosh,
13:09
it’s another day. You know, it’s like,
13:11
I’m tired. That kind of drained feeling.
13:14
So that measures like that help us to
13:16
measure what’s going on in your mind,
13:18
how you feel, and then put numbers to
13:20
it, which can help us then track that
13:22
person over time, but also compare
13:24
groups because they’re validated. So
13:26
that’s the psychology. The the the
13:28
behavior might be things like how long
13:31
are you sleeping for?
13:32
How physically active are you? I use
13:36
something called um a single lead ECG um
13:40
that measures a physiology some
13:41
physiological var variables I’ll talk
13:43
about in a moment but it also captures
13:45
things like how many steps did you um
13:47
did you take um what what different
13:49
types of physical activity might you
13:51
have done all passively um then we look
13:54
at physiology and you know physiology is
13:56
what’s going on kind of in your body in
13:58
your brain and with that I might capture
14:01
something like heart rate variability so
14:03
I’m sure that some of you listeners have
14:04
you use wearable devices and many of
14:07
those capture heart rate variability.
14:09
And heart rate variability is just the
14:11
difference in time between each
14:12
heartbeat. And it’s actually controlled
14:14
by something called your autonomic
14:16
nervous system. That’s the part of your
14:17
nervous system that just runs on
14:18
autopilot in the background. Now, when
14:21
there are really consistent gaps between
14:24
each heartbeat, you might think that’s a
14:26
good thing, but that’s actually an
14:28
indicator that your nervous system isn’t
14:31
that sensitively controlling what’s
14:32
going on. It’s like a driver behind the
14:35
wheel who’s just braking metronomically
14:37
rather than braking in the perfect place
14:40
at the perfect time with just the right
14:41
amount of pressure on the pedal. What
14:43
you actually want to see is greater
14:45
variability which means that autopilot
14:47
in the background, that autonomic
14:48
nervous system is actually controlling
14:50
your heartbeat perfectly because it’s
14:52
very adaptable and flexible. So I might
14:54
use a measure like that to understand
14:57
whether your nervous system is in in a
14:59
state to be able to adapt to the stress
15:00
that you might face. I also use that
15:03
what you mentioned sometimes an EG
15:05
headset that’s measuring brain activity
15:07
brain states your ability to sustain
15:10
attention for example um the level of
15:12
stress you’re feeling uh
15:14
neurohysiologically in your brain well
15:16
then I put all those data points
15:18
together the psychology the behavior the
15:20
physiology and that helps me to answer
15:23
that question um which I described
15:25
earlier in relation to human performance
15:27
which is what is your current state then
15:31
we try and figure about what you’re
15:32
trying to achieve. Maybe it’s I want
15:35
some more energy. I want to feel more
15:37
emotional energy so that when that
15:38
person arrives at my desk, I’m like,
15:40
“Yeah, I’ve got five minutes for you.”
15:42
And I can be fully present in that five
15:43
minutes. That cognitive energy, when I
15:45
sit down to write the email or read the
15:47
email, I don’t need to read it three
15:48
times. It goes straight in. Um, and that
15:50
physical energy, I hop out of bed in the
15:52
morning feeling like, “Yes, I can take
15:53
on the day.” Um, and then, but that’s
15:56
fed by that physiology, by that
15:58
behavior. So we establish where you are,
16:00
where you want to be and then we come up
16:01
with a plan to to bridge that gap. And
16:04
those measures, the physiology, the
16:07
behavior, the psychology provide that
16:09
feedback loop to help us understand are
16:12
we helping that person or that team
16:14
bridge that gap? Are we actually seeing
16:15
the changes that we hope to to help them
16:17
get where they want to be? So that’s
16:19
kind of how I’d approach it. And I’ve
16:20
been able to gather you thousands, tens
16:23
of thousands, millions of data points
16:25
from thousands of people over plus 10
16:28
plus years now in a workplace setting um
16:31
to understand how those three things mix
16:34
together and how we can help to bridge
16:35
that gap for people.
Achieving Performance Goals
16:37
How often is it that that human
16:39
performance level of like they’re here
16:40
and they want to get there? uh like
16:42
taking two of the examples that you have
16:45
like the cycling you talked about how um
16:49
at one point you’re like hey I want to
16:50
be like this elite elite cyclist and it
16:54
was going to be a long journey to get
16:55
there and you realize like hey I’m not
16:57
I’m not cut out for that but I am cut
16:59
out for this and then in the F1 world uh
17:01
like your team saw 19 world
17:03
championships like unbelievable stats
17:06
now you’ve taken this into the corporate
17:08
world you’re doing this you’re speaking
17:09
on it you’re consulting with these
17:10
massive companies How often is the here
17:12
to there not possible, you know, and and
17:15
how often is it that it’s like, hey,
17:17
actually, you want to get there, you’re
17:19
not going to get there. Let’s readjust
17:20
that thinking. Or is it back to like
17:22
maybe what you thought in your early
17:24
career of like work harder, work harder,
17:25
work harder, and you’re going to get
17:26
there.
Possibility of Achieving Goals
17:28
So, I mean, the reality is that
17:30
sometimes it isn’t possible. Um, and and
17:32
I guess it some of this is about your
17:35
philosophy about goals really. Um and
17:38
and also the type of goals that you set
17:40
because sometimes you might establish a
17:42
goal which is absolutely specific and
17:45
you know it’s a smart goal specific,
17:46
measurable, achievable, realistic,
17:48
timebound and you it might be that
17:49
you’ve got to hit a particular budget
17:51
for example or there is a particular
17:52
revenue target you’ve got to hit to be
17:54
able to unlock the next level of
17:55
investment that your company needs or or
17:57
even you’ve just got to hit that
17:58
profitability so you can you can pay the
18:00
bills or doever whatever you need to do.
18:03
Um when it comes to humans sometimes
18:05
though it can be more difficult to be
18:07
that specific. You know the nice thing
18:09
about cycling was that um if you are
18:12
trying to describe for example what’s
18:14
required to win a stage of the tour to
18:16
France you can actually break down you
18:19
know the a profile of how much power you
18:22
need to be able to produce for how long
18:24
um uh uh over various different
18:26
dimensions and then know that if they
18:29
can achieve that they’re probably going
18:30
to be in with a good chance of winning
18:32
that particular stage. Um with humans in
18:35
a business context it’s a bit more
18:37
vague. doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have
18:38
goals, but the goals provide slightly
18:41
different per serve a slightly different
18:42
purpose. You the goals aren’t
18:44
necessarily because you want to kind of
18:46
win that particular stage metaphorically
18:48
speaking. Um it’s more about providing
18:50
that direction that you’d work towards.
18:52
Now, there’s some level of specificity
18:54
in it, but the actual outcome is often a
18:56
bit more vague. What what leads up to
18:57
it? The process goals are more specific.
19:00
So you know the outcome might be
19:03
something like I want more energy and I
19:05
want to maybe and you could be specific
19:07
it might say I want to increase the
19:08
emotional energy I’ve got on this
19:09
particular validated scale by 20%. Um
19:13
but the more important thing is that we
19:14
then deconstruct that and say what
19:17
particular behaviors what changes do we
19:20
need to see that are going to support
19:21
that that outcome
19:22
and that might be for example we say um
19:25
so at the moment someone’s sleeping six
19:27
hours per night we want to try and nudge
19:29
that to six and a half perfect if we can
19:31
get an average of seven um it might be
19:33
that they’re not physically active at
19:35
all it might be that actually their
19:36
workday is completely chaotic and
19:38
they’re interrupted every 3 minutes they
19:40
check their email continually um they’re
19:42
in uh too many meetings that could have
19:44
been emails and actually they’re the one
19:46
who’s responsible for setting most of
19:48
them. Um and so we’d look at those
19:49
dimensions and we’d say what do we need
19:51
to change to support that outcome of
19:52
having more energy and I would say that
19:55
often most of the time we do achieve
19:58
that aim of that improved energy. Um uh
20:02
we might have to adjust a few dimensions
20:03
on the way but generally speaking in
20:06
terms of the directionality I see a very
20:08
very high success rate. M sometimes
20:11
though that the outcome changes. They
20:13
think they want more energy. What they
20:14
find at the end is beneath it all what
20:16
they really cared about was something
20:18
they didn’t want to talk about really
20:19
which might be I really wanted that
20:21
promotion. I just didn’t want to tell
20:22
James. Um and because it sounded too
20:24
ambitious or something or I was scared
20:26
that I might not get it. And it actually
20:27
turns out that all these behaviors end
20:29
up supporting that goal that they were
20:31
working towards. But for me, the
20:32
important thing is that it’s there’s a
20:34
direction because I think with any
20:36
performer that you’re working with, it’s
20:38
a lot easier to to course correct once
20:42
there’s momentum and there’s energy and
20:43
there’s change. So, in some ways, I
20:46
don’t really care. I just want them to
20:48
establish something that they can work
20:49
towards to get them started and we can
20:51
adjust and figure out along the way. And
20:53
that’s the benefit of creating those
20:54
feedback loops and the measurements is
20:56
that you’ve got something that you can
20:59
um learn from so that you can adjust
21:02
course if you need to depending on where
21:03
they want to go. But I would say that
21:05
you know it’s very rare that I haven’t
21:08
seen any positive change.
Positive Change and Customization
21:11
Most of the time we’ll see we’ll see a
21:13
positive change. Um uh even if where
21:16
they’re going is different to maybe
21:17
where they thought they’d go at the
21:19
beginning of the process. How often is
21:21
the starting point different for people?
21:23
Like you talk about as long as you’re
21:24
seeing movement, like that’s positive
21:26
because you can kind of shape that to
21:27
where it needs to go. Uh is it always
21:30
like here’s the one two three or is it
21:31
like hey every circumstance is so
21:33
different. It really is like customized
21:35
to their goal.
Need for Customization
21:37
Yeah, I think it is important to be
21:38
customized. I think I mean the
21:40
interesting thing is is that um there
21:42
are 100% differences but very often it’s
21:45
the
Executive Program Insights
21:47
same fundamentals that will make the
21:50
biggest difference in the end to whether
21:51
they achieve what they want to or not
21:52
particularly if you think about in an
21:55
executive context. So you know the the
21:56
outcomes that someone might work towards
21:59
could be really varied. So for example
22:01
I’ve run a program now for uh a
22:02
variation of a program for nearly 10
22:04
years now with one global company uh
22:06
with their very senior leaders different
22:08
cohorts of their of their leadership
22:11
team. um or leadership group um at two
22:14
levels and you’ll see all kinds of
22:16
different objectives in that program. So
22:18
you’ve got some people who you really
22:20
want to p progress to the next level
22:22
professionally. You’ve got other people
22:24
who say you know I’ve probably got 10
22:25
years left. I want to make sure that
22:27
when I retire I don’t drop dead on the
22:30
day after which comes up more often than
22:32
you think. So the people who say I’ve
22:33
got a young family and I just want to
22:36
have energy for them. Um now the
22:38
starting point for everyone is similar
22:41
in the sense we we’d look at the same um
22:44
uh kind of array of of measures and
22:46
because and all of those are important
22:48
the individual difference will be you
22:50
which one do we maybe need to prioritize
22:54
first so and what I’d often look for is
22:58
you what point represents um the the
23:00
greatest point of leverage. So to give
23:02
you a very practical example of that,
23:03
say you’ve got a senior executive who
23:06
comes into this program and uh and what
23:08
they’re talking about is, you know, I uh
23:10
I really want to make sure that um I’ve
23:12
got the energy and the focus and the
23:13
drive I need to be able to sustain this
23:16
level so that I’m in the position to
23:17
progress to this next level in my
23:19
career. And we kind of take a step back
23:21
and we look at them. We say, “Okay, so
23:23
so what is going on? Have you are you
23:25
are you following the behaviors that we
23:27
know you need you need to do to be able
23:28
to put yourself in a position for that
23:31
advancement for that promotion? Um some
23:32
of those behaviors might be
23:33
professional. Some of it’s about the
23:35
presence with the people that you’re
23:37
with. But then we might look at so what
23:39
do you need to be able to show up with
23:41
that presence that sustained attention,
23:44
those sharp ideas, uh the creativity,
23:45
the innovation that’s going to make you
23:47
stand out from your peers. Well, we
23:49
might say actually again some of it
23:51
might be about sleep. Some of it might
23:53
be let’s look at your schedule. You’re
23:54
trying to progress. You’re working
23:55
harder than ever, but you’re in
23:57
backto-back meetings. Have you ever
23:59
thought about taking a break between the
24:00
meetings? You know, there’s a really
24:02
some really interesting research. It
24:05
shows that um you’ve probably noticed
24:07
this. Our best ideas often come to mind
24:09
when we least expect them. And um they
24:13
most often emerge during a time when we
24:15
pause. See, when we pause, we activate
24:17
something in our brain called the
24:19
default mode network. And uh you can
24:21
think of it as this kind of unconscious
24:23
reservoir of creativity.
Importance of Taking Breaks
24:25
So I often say to these people if you
24:28
need a breakthrough to bring those super
24:30
creative ideas that are going to
24:31
differentiate you from your peers in
24:33
this professional process. If you need a
24:36
breakthrough, take a break. Start to
24:38
create five or 10 minute breaks between
24:40
these meetings. When often you’ll see
24:42
people who say they want to progress and
24:43
they’re working really hard and they’ve
24:45
got big professional ambition. They
24:46
almost think that kind of the blocked
24:49
calendar of backto-back meetings. They
24:51
kind wrongly think that that’s a sign
24:54
that they’re doing really well. Everyone
24:55
wants me because I’m important. Everyone
24:57
needs me. When actually the thing that
24:59
might make the difference is taking a
25:01
step back from that and actually being
25:03
in a few in fewer meetings or maybe even
25:04
more efficient shorter meetings which is
25:07
another another story. So, so the bottom
25:08
line is in relation to your question
25:10
that the starting point might still
25:11
always look at the same number of
25:13
variables, the same group of variables,
25:15
but identify which ones are most
25:16
important, which ones represent the
25:18
highest point of leverage so that we can
25:20
design a process which will have the
25:21
greatest impact for them for the goal
25:24
that they’re they’re trying to achieve.
Book on Regenerative Performance
25:26
I would make the assumption that anyone
25:28
listening to this podcast is trying to
25:30
get better at some level because
25:31
otherwise why in the world would they be
25:34
listening to a podcast? uh thinking
25:36
through like you wrote a book on
25:38
regenerative performance.
25:40
I know some of the stuff you’re talking
25:42
about is in that, but talk about how the
25:43
book came to be and when you wrote it,
25:45
what you were hoping people would get
25:47
out of it.
25:49
So the book is a consolidation of a lot
25:51
of thinking that I’ve done over the last
25:54
few years. Um and my hope was that
25:57
people would get out of it um and
26:00
experience a revelation that I had. Uh
26:02
so I mentioned that I came from this
26:06
background in racing cycling and uh then
26:08
became a coach to these top performers
26:10
and along the way you know the the
26:12
driving philosophy continued to be
26:15
effort plus optimization equals peak
26:16
performance
26:19
if I had to describe it as a algorithm.
26:21
Um and that is my natural tendency is to
26:24
operate like that. Effort more effort
26:26
more more optimization. You can probably
26:27
hear it coming through with the things
26:29
I’ve said already. And that worked
26:33
really well until it didn’t. And um it
26:36
didn’t when one morning started like any
26:39
other morning and uh but this time when
26:42
I was in the shower, found a lump and I
26:43
went on to receive this diagnosis that
26:45
changed everything.
Personal Health Revelation
26:48
Um and um you know I was sitting in I
26:50
went to get it investigated sitting in
26:54
that hospital um uh uh room with the
26:55
consultant and they said you know James
26:58
is it’s cancer. And you know, hearing
27:01
that you metaphorically felt like
27:02
someone had taken a stick and put it
27:03
through the front wheel of my racing
27:05
bike. And suddenly I was just pitched
27:07
into the air. But this time I didn’t
27:10
land on the tarmac. I found myself just
27:13
sitting in this brightly lit uh room
27:17
with a with a an oncologist. And um that
27:20
really started this this huge
27:22
transformational process in many ways
27:24
because frankly for the first time in my
27:27
life I really confronted my mortality.
27:28
Um you might think I would have
27:30
confronted it you know racing down
27:33
mountains in the French Pyrenees without
27:35
helmet at the age of 19 at 100 km an
27:37
hour which is what we did in the early
27:39
2000s but you know when your prefrontal
27:40
cortex isn’t fully developed you don’t
27:42
really think about that kind of thing.
27:43
You know it’s like of course I’m not
27:45
going to crash I’m amazing aren’t I? But
27:46
but no, but this time, you know, sitting
27:49
in that uh in that room in that
27:50
hospital, I really did confront my
27:53
mortality. And I also was forced to
27:55
confront some of the ways I’ve been
27:56
living and working because the reality
27:58
was I’d just been living at a million
28:01
miles an hour. You know, always on, more
28:03
effort, more optimization. Many of the
28:05
people that I worked with were doing the
28:07
same thing. And I was just confronted
28:09
with this reality that I couldn’t carry
28:13
on like that. Um uh but at the same time
28:14
I was never going to be one of these
28:16
people who experiences cancer or a
28:19
health event and decides they’re going
28:21
to quit everything and you know go and
28:24
open a cafe on the beach. You know it
28:26
just was never going to be me. Uh it’s
28:29
just not how I’m wired. So I needed to
28:31
find this way to avoid these extremes of
28:32
this what I call hyperoptimization at
28:34
one end of the spectrum which I saw in
28:36
my own life and many of the lives of the
28:39
people that I worked with or this kind
28:41
of resignation or what you might call
28:43
quiet quitting at the other. And I also
28:45
saw as I was reflecting on this that
28:48
these these approaches were becoming
28:50
increasingly dominant in social media
28:53
and perhaps more broadly that you’ve got
28:55
these people who kind of suggest that
28:56
you either need to be this guy who wakes
28:59
up at 5 a.m. in the morning, jumps in a
29:01
ice bath, drinks a kale shake, writes
29:03
their journal, lifts, does some
29:05
deadlifting and before anyone else has
29:08
woken up. or you got to be the person
29:11
who protects their peace and you know uh
29:12
doesn’t take on anything that’s going to
29:14
stretch them because you know I need to
29:17
look after myself and I felt like these
29:19
these don’t relate to I can’t live
29:21
either of these ways I I need to
29:24
redesign the way I live and work um
29:25
because I’ve had this massive like
29:28
health scare thankfully I went on to
29:30
make a full recovery but you know as I
29:33
was getting back to 100% health again I
29:35
did have more time to reflect you know
29:37
in many ways It was probably the first
29:40
time that I’d stopped in like 20 years
29:42
um uh that process of diagnosis, of
29:45
surgery, of chemotherapy, of recovery. I
29:46
had a lot of time to sit around and
29:48
think in a way that I hadn’t before when
29:50
I’ve just been always on at mill an
29:52
hour. And I realized that, you know, the
29:54
the solution, what I came to describe as
29:56
this third way, had been staring me in
29:58
the face the whole time. Because when I
30:00
reflected on the true top performers
30:02
that I worked with and by that I mean
30:04
athletes who’ able who were able to
30:06
sustain their career long term, you
30:08
know, the the few professional cyclists
30:10
who manage managed to sustain careers
30:12
into their late 30s and even into their
30:13
early 40s,
30:15
the business people who were able to
30:18
sustain long careers with real positive
30:20
impact um and didn’t blow up their
30:22
families along the way. You know, the
30:24
people who were able to really run the
30:27
race well. Um, the people who sustained
30:30
that high performance long term weren’t
30:33
mastering effort and optimization as I
30:35
had been trying to, they were really
30:37
effective at integrating effort and
30:39
recovery. They worked really really
30:41
hard, but they knew how to regenerate.
30:44
They knew how to recharge. And sometimes
30:46
that meant making some difficult
30:47
decisions. You know, they they made
30:50
sacrifices to do that. But somehow they
30:52
were able to not strive for this perfect
30:55
equilibrium which we know is just a
30:57
complete myth. They were really
30:58
deliberate about when you need to go
31:01
allin and redline because sometimes you
31:03
do if you want to achieve big things but
31:05
also they’re really clear about how you
31:07
switch off and recharge and invest in
31:08
things that are going to sustain you
31:12
long term. and that revelation and this
31:14
realization that I hadn’t been living
31:16
like that and I needed to live like
31:19
that. And this uh revisiting of a lot of
31:21
concepts that I talked about before and
31:23
research that I’d done and uh research
31:26
that I’d read led me to conceptualize
31:28
what I describe as this third way um
31:31
which I named regenerative performance
31:33
that recognizes that true sustained high
31:34
performance doesn’t emerge from this
31:37
process of constant optimization but
31:39
rather by creating these conditions
31:40
where your well-being and your
31:43
performance complement rather than
31:45
conflict with each other. And so that
31:46
was the genesis of this book,
31:47
Regenerative Performance, and just
31:49
trying to take this science-based,
31:51
datadriven, but practical look at what
31:53
we need to do from when we wake up in
31:54
the morning to when we go to bed at
31:56
night and with our work day and
31:58
nutrition and exercise in between. Um,
32:00
and make that accessible and provide
32:02
people with a tool to hopefully help
32:04
them to uh put into practice some of the
32:07
ideas that emerged for me as I was going
32:08
through that that process of of
32:10
transformation.
Book’s Impact and Servant Leadership
32:13
Wow. We’re I I love that book first of
32:17
all. Uh I got to read it maybe almost a
32:20
year ago now. Um for the first time and
32:23
I loved it just even just reshaping some
32:25
perspectives that I think all of us have
32:28
been told since we were kids. Uh it it
32:30
helped reshape some of that and really
32:33
help me rethink through how do I need to
32:37
like regenerate myself. Um, one of the
32:39
things I’m curious about, we talk a ton
32:40
about servant leadership on this
32:42
podcast. How do you think better
32:45
performance and elite performance and
32:48
servant leadership cross over, if at
32:49
all?
32:52
So, I think one of the um the biggest
32:54
crossovers is in how the capacity that
32:57
we have influence our ability to show up
32:58
for others.
32:59
And you one of the most practical
33:01
examples of that I can give uh relates
33:03
back to some of those dimensions I
33:05
described earlier. So your your
33:07
cognitive energy, your emotional energy,
33:08
your physical energy and that scenario
33:10
that I described where you’re sitting at
33:12
your desk and the person comes to talk
33:13
to you and you think I haven’t got the
33:17
energy. So we say the human performance
33:19
angle on this is about the capacity that
33:20
we have to be able to show up for that
33:23
person in that moment. And it relates to
33:26
those practices that we might put into
33:27
place to be able to support showing up
33:29
in the way that we want to as a servant
33:32
leader. Um and that might start with
33:34
adequate sleep. And when we know for
33:36
example that um when leaders don’t sleep
33:39
enough they create less psychologically
33:41
safe team environments and it seems to
33:43
relate that our social emotional
33:44
processing and our emotional
33:46
intelligence is impaired. It might also
33:48
be about your physical fitness as well
33:50
though because we know there’s a link
33:52
between being physically fit
33:54
physiologically and then the energy that
33:57
we have um cognitively and being able to
33:59
sustain attention. So when that person’s
34:01
talking to you in the afternoon, you’re
34:03
able to stay present and engaged, you’re
34:05
not getting tired and kind of drifting
34:07
off and and distracted. So for me, you
34:09
know, human performance provides us with
34:11
that capacity to be able to show up for
34:12
others. And ultimately, I think that’s
34:15
the highest purpose of that capacity. Um
34:16
because I think the other risk sometimes
34:18
with this effort and optimization
34:19
approach is that it can just become
34:22
completely self-obsessed. Um what’s the
34:24
point in that? So I think there’s a
34:26
really strong connection between human
34:28
performance building the capacity uh
34:30
that we need and being able to use that
34:33
capacity in the service of of others. Um
34:35
and so for me you know that is a real
34:38
driver behind this not just kind of you
34:40
know naval gazing and thinking about how
34:42
we can improve ourselves for the sake of
34:44
it actually looking at what can we do
34:46
with this energy psychologically
34:48
physiologically emotionally uh to be
34:49
able to go and have a real positive
34:52
impact uh for the people that we lead.
Sleep and Leadership
34:54
Yeah. One of the things that I find so
34:55
interesting and you talk about the sleep
34:58
side of it. Uh I know you speak on some
34:59
of the biggest stages in the world. You
35:01
also speak to a lot of companies. One of
35:05
the things I heard you say and it hit me
35:06
different and I know you talk about this
35:07
in the book too but it hit me different
35:09
when you talked about it. Sometimes
35:13
people think uh that they are fully
35:16
present and fully there and use the
35:17
sleep for example like they think that
35:20
their energy levels are high but some of
35:22
the stuff that you actually measure are
35:24
maybe somebody sleeps for I forget what
35:25
it is like six hours a night or
35:26
something consistently for a couple
35:30
weeks and they don’t even realize how uh
35:33
declined their cognitive decline is.
35:35
talk about like I’m I know I’m phrasing
35:37
that terrible, but that was one of the
35:38
key things that I’ve heard you talk
35:40
about and I was like, “Wow, we are so
35:43
unaware of how all of the things you’ve
35:44
talked about actually affect our
35:46
performance.”
35:49
Yeah, humans are really bad judges of
35:52
how impaired they are. And you know, for
35:53
most of human history, that was probably
35:55
adaptive because we just needed to carry
35:56
on. But the way it shows up now is that
35:59
um you’re in the meeting feeling like
36:01
you’re super sharp and you’re absolutely
36:02
on it and everyone’s looking at you
36:04
thinking, “What is this guy talking
36:05
about?” Um and the great a great example
36:07
of this was a study you alluded to where
36:09
they restricted people’s sleep for six
36:11
hours per night for two weeks. And after
36:14
that two week period, their sustained
36:15
attention based on something called a
36:17
PVT test was as bad as going an entire
36:19
night without sleep. But the people
36:22
didn’t realize they were impaired. They
36:24
kind of thought they were fine. We also
36:26
see that when people don’t sleep enough
36:28
um their problem solving ability
36:30
decreases. They’re also rated as less
36:32
inspirational by team members. So
36:34
leaders specifically guy called
36:35
Christopher Barnes did some research on
36:36
this uh where leaders don’t uh leader
36:38
sleep is restricted to 5 hours versus
36:40
seven. Their teams rate them as less
36:42
inspirational because leaders end up
36:44
engaging in something called surface
36:46
acting. And that’s just a technical way
36:48
of saying that you show up less
36:49
authentically. And you might not think
36:51
you do but your team can tell. And you
36:53
know what it’s like? You you’re tired
36:54
and you turn up and you say, “Okay,
36:56
team, you know, I’ve got we’ve got a big
36:58
target. I really need you to get around
36:59
this.” And together we can do it. Now,
37:02
there’s a way you can say that which is
37:03
really believable and authentic. And
37:05
there’s a way that’s like, “Yeah,
37:06
everyone’s looking at you, they’re like,
37:08
“This guy doesn’t believe what you’re
37:09
saying.” And uh even if they don’t
37:11
articulate it, we we feel it. It’s very
37:13
subtle. Again, sleep’s providing that
37:16
capacity which is going to determine how
37:17
we show up as a leader. And
37:19
unfortunately, we’re just not aware of
37:21
that gap often between and how we think
37:23
we are and how we are actually are. You
37:25
see it in decision- making too. You
37:27
don’t sleep enough, you make worse
37:28
decisions. Ironically, you become more
37:31
confident in those bad decisions.
Importance of Sleep
37:34
So, um, so I I say to leaders
37:36
consistently and their teams that sleep
37:40
is not a waste of time. It’s a strategic
37:42
investment in everything that you care
37:44
about being awake for. And uh, and I
37:48
think uh, more and more leads are
37:49
getting on board with that, which is
37:50
great. But some of us have still got a
37:53
bit of a way to go.
37:55
Yeah, I’m one of those that still has a
37:57
ways to go. But at the same time, I
37:58
started looking into it after I heard
38:00
you say it and realized that it’s not
38:02
just a sports thing that people need a
38:05
lot more sleep. Some of the most high
38:06
performing work people uh they might
38:09
have weird sleep schedules and how they
38:11
do it, but but they are getting a lot of
38:13
rest and really trying to regenerate
38:16
their brain. uh this kind of combats
38:19
with it and I know I’ve kind of asked
38:20
this but in the sports world you hear a
38:23
lot about like push to the point of
38:25
exhaustion right push to the point of
38:27
exhaustion in in the work world like in
38:31
just corporate America uh people don’t
38:33
use that language but it is work to the
38:35
point of exhaustion right work to the
38:37
point of like you’ve got to be the best
38:40
to achieve all these things you talk a
38:42
lot about burnout as well talk about how
38:45
you see burnout playing into all of
38:46
this.
Myth of High Performance
38:48
So I think I mean there is a myth at the
38:50
heart of what people think is high
38:53
performance um that you’re not going to
38:56
reach your potential unless you are
38:58
pushing yourself to the point of burnout
39:00
and maybe beyond. Um but the reality is
39:02
is that if you look in sport or in
39:04
business again the people who sustain
39:06
that high performance long term are
39:08
actually real masters of understanding
39:10
where that limit is and often not
39:12
pushing up to it even kind of backing
39:14
off slightly recovering and then pushing
39:16
again. So, you know, the wisdom is
39:18
really knowing when to go all in and
39:21
when to back off. And a lot of what you
39:24
see with these people who are talking
39:25
about, you know, like crush it, push it
39:26
to the limit, over the limit, red line.
39:28
It’s it’s more what I’d call high
39:30
performance theater than it is real high
39:33
performance. And um it’s the illusion of
39:36
high performance. It’s the kind of the
39:37
Hollywood version of high performance.
39:39
And you see this funny enough when you
39:42
ask leaders how much they work in terms
39:45
of working hours and you actually
39:46
measure it there’s often quite a big gap
39:49
between that reality. So people say a
39:51
CEO will say I work 80 hours a week. I
39:54
expect the same from my team. Well you
39:56
break down what that 80 hours looks like
39:58
and for the most part for many of them
40:01
it’s like well you know there was the
40:03
plane and they were at the front of it
40:06
and they had half an hour. We had some
40:08
okay food, maybe even a sneaked in half
40:11
an episode or something. And there was
40:13
the lunch, the the work meeting, really
40:16
important deal, but it was a nice lunch
40:18
in a pretty good restaurant. And there
40:20
was the time when, you know, there there
40:21
was a some executive time, which
40:24
basically meant maybe they went for a
40:25
walk and a coffee and the really
40:27
important meeting with the person they
40:28
really like, who they’ve got
40:30
professional relationship with, but it
40:31
wasn’t super intense. And then you’ve
40:33
got, you know, at the other part the the
40:35
other side of the company, you know, the
40:36
sales team who genuinely are working 60
40:38
hours smashing those calls every day in
40:41
those Zoom meetings and and you wonder
40:43
why they burn out and the leader
40:44
doesn’t. But often there’s this this
40:46
detachment between the reality and what
40:48
they say. And so I’m very cautious about
40:51
these ideas of just like crushing it and
40:53
redlinining every day because it’s just
40:55
not the reality of how you support
40:56
sustained high performance. And
40:58
generally what you see um when people
41:00
are burning out is that depletion again
41:03
in those three dimensions emotional
41:06
energy, cognitive energy, physical
41:07
energy. And so often what I’m trying to
41:10
encourage leaders and their teams to do
41:11
is to just become more conscious um and
41:14
almost develop a bit of an internal
41:16
dashboard. Sometimes we actually
41:18
actually come up with a real dashboard
41:19
to measure this stuff. And really if you
41:21
listen only going to take away three
41:23
things. I would say, you know, imagine
41:26
your personal dashboard on those three
41:28
dimensions. Your emotional energy, your
41:30
cognitive energy, your physical energy.
41:33
How are you doing right now? Because if
41:35
you’re starting to feel that depleted
41:37
cognitive energy, reading the email
41:38
three times, that lower emotional
41:40
energy, not having the capacity of the
41:42
person who comes to talk to you in the
41:43
afternoon, and the lower physical
41:45
energy, like, man, I need to take the,
41:47
you know, the um the lift, the elevator
41:49
because the stairs are too too fatiguing
41:52
for me today. That’s a warning sign that
41:54
maybe you need to prioritize that rest
41:56
and start to reframe rest not as a
42:00
reward that you get to at the end of the
42:02
red line, but rest as what makes great
42:05
work possible. Um, and particularly in
42:08
this new phase that we’re entering where
42:11
these really powerful AI tools are going
42:13
to start to be already are taking on a
42:16
lot of human work. The work that’s left
42:18
for humans, the creativity, the
42:20
collaboration, the complex problem
42:22
solving, that only emerges from focused,
42:25
well-rested brains, [snorts]
42:27
not leaders and teams who are believing
42:31
in this high performance theater and
42:33
crushing it and pushing it and redlining
42:35
it every day because uh yeah, that way
42:38
of work I think is
42:40
is going to be left behind. Well, I I
42:43
know you have spoken a lot like publicly
42:46
again with a lot of companies, big
42:48
stages on leadership and well-being. One
42:50
of the things that I’m really curious
42:52
about, I know you’re talking a ton about
42:54
peak performance and the future of work
42:56
as you’re going around the world, tons
42:58
of different contexts like big stages,
43:00
all these companies. What do people come
43:02
up to you and tell you after? like you
43:04
you’ve given a talk on peak performance
43:06
or future wellbeing a work like what do
43:09
they tell you and what do you see are
43:10
the benefits that help you learn as well
43:13
like hey this is really striking a chord
43:15
and this is what we need to be thinking
43:17
about in the next few years.
Concerns About AI and Work
43:19
So, one of the the things that people
43:20
keep on talking about at the moment is
43:22
that um they’re concerned that some of
43:24
these new technologies, these AI tools
43:27
might actually just end up making us
43:29
even busier and increasing the intensity
43:31
of work rather than resulting in
43:34
meaningful shifts that help humans do
43:35
what they’re really good at. Because I
43:37
think that the some of the content and
43:38
the ideas that resonate most
43:39
consistently are where I articulate I um
43:42
I describe the problem. And the big
43:44
problem that many of us are facing is
43:46
that we’re always on.
43:48
79% of us check our smartphone within
43:52
five minutes of waking up in the
43:53
morning. You know,
Digital Overload Discussion
0:43:55
we’re interrupted every three minutes. 42% of people admit
0:43:58
to checking their phone in the bathroom.
0:44:00
Sure, none of your listeners would do
0:44:01
that, of course. Um, but we spend our
0:44:04
day kind of toggling between emails and
0:44:06
meetings and chat messages and, you
0:44:09
know, we’re just overloaded. And then we
0:44:10
get to the end of the day after this day
0:44:12
and we really need to switch off, but we
0:44:14
can’t. We’re stuck in this recovery
0:44:15
paradox where it’s hardest to switch off
0:44:17
when we most need to switch off. And
0:44:20
people are now saying, “Okay, well,
0:44:21
people told me AI was going to help me.”
0:44:23
And you’ve identified this problem, but
0:44:25
the issue I’ve got now is that I used to
0:44:27
get a lot of emails. I’ve still got a
0:44:28
lot of emails. And now everyone is an
0:44:30
essay. And it’s [clears throat] weird
0:44:32
because, you know, my colleagues who
0:44:34
used to write these brief emails with
0:44:35
spelling mistakes now send me three
0:44:37
paragraphs of perfect pros. It’s got
0:44:39
loads of em dashes. I don’t know why.
0:44:42
And you it seems like my whole team now,
0:44:44
everyone’s got a ghostriter and it’s the
0:44:46
same ghost. And AI is just
0:44:48
proliferating. Harvard Business Review
0:44:50
did an article about this. They call it
0:44:51
work slop. And so the the the one of the
0:44:54
themes that really is connecting with
0:44:56
people is this challenge of being always
0:44:57
on, of being consistently distracted, um
0:45:00
of feeling like we hoped we’d be more
0:45:01
efficient but and effective but we’re
0:45:03
not. And the the solutions that I share
0:45:06
and the practical plans to be able to
0:45:08
overcome some of this that really
0:45:09
connect with people seem to really
0:45:10
focused around three core ideas. The
0:45:13
first is how can we tackle some of this
0:45:15
always on work this overload this over
0:45:19
these overflowing calendars and improve
0:45:21
our efficiency and effectiveness at work
0:45:22
truly um and get the best out of some of
0:45:25
these AI tools for example. How can we
0:45:27
be more decisive and focused so we’re
0:45:29
not interrupted every 3 minutes? we’ve
0:45:30
got some real time to lock in, apply
0:45:32
that sustained attention. The evidence
0:45:35
indicates when we do that, we’re able to
0:45:37
work about 30% faster and with less
0:45:39
stress. And finally, because people are
0:45:41
always on in backto-back meetings with
0:45:43
longer work days than ever, and they
0:45:44
can’t switch off, how can we actually
0:45:46
find ways to regenerate to enjoy some of
0:45:49
that downtime where we can re-energize,
0:45:52
where we can rest, to build that
0:45:54
capacity to invest both in our
0:45:56
professional lives, but also in the
0:45:57
other things we care about too. So
0:45:59
identifying that problem and describing
0:46:01
it in a way that people relate to that
0:46:04
feeling of being always on of constantly
0:46:06
distracted difficulty in switching off
0:46:08
and then really articulating a solution
0:46:11
and the way that I do that is share some
0:46:12
very practical experiments that leaders
0:46:14
and their teams can do and provide a
0:46:16
roadmap for implementing these ideas
0:46:18
that really connects with people whether
0:46:21
I’m talking to someone in Asia, the US
0:46:24
where I spend about 40% of my time now
0:46:26
or or Europe. um people in the workplace
0:46:29
are struggling with similar things and
0:46:31
they’re all looking for solutions.
Rapidfire Questions
0:46:33
Wow. Well, [snorts] for those that are
0:46:35
listening, we’re going to throw the book
0:46:37
and your website where people can
0:46:38
actually like book you and get in touch
0:46:40
with you uh in the show notes so people
0:46:42
can actually I recommend buying your
0:46:44
book. Your book was awesome. Um
0:46:46
thanks Chris.
0:46:47
Uh I want to finish with 10 rapidfire
0:46:50
questions. Um just so we really burn out
0:46:53
at the end, you know, like just back to
0:46:54
back to back constant.
0:46:55
Let’s just push it. This is this is the
0:46:57
time to go all in, Chris. I’m up for it.
0:46:59
I’ve got the capacity.
Servant Leadership Inspiration
0:47:01
Who’s the first person you think of when
0:47:03
I say servant leadership?
0:47:06
It’s got to be Jesus. Jesus Christ. He
0:47:09
was the ultimate servant servant leader
0:47:10
in my view.
Personal Insights
0:47:12
Love it. Five words that most describe
0:47:14
you.
0:47:16
Passionate, driven,
0:47:19
uh, distracted,
0:47:21
energetic, and often equally fatigued.
0:47:25
[laughter] a contradiction.
0:47:27
Who’s your [clears throat] favorite book
0:47:28
or author?
0:47:31
Oh, good question. I find it so
0:47:33
difficult to just drill it down into
0:47:35
into one because I I always have about
0:47:37
five different books on the go. Um but
0:47:40
um I recently um read a book um by a guy
0:47:44
called Ian McGillchrist called The
0:47:45
Master in His Emissary. So that’s kind
0:47:47
of front of mind at the moment, which is
0:47:48
a really big book, but but a really good
0:47:50
one. So that’s not necessarily my
0:47:52
favorite, but that’s the one that comes
0:47:54
to mind straight away. All right.
0:47:55
Favorite food?
0:47:58
Pizza. I love a good pizza.
0:48:00
Crispy, thin base.
Recharging and Regeneration
0:48:02
How do you recharge and regenerate your
0:48:04
mind?
0:48:06
So, for me, it’s just spending time with
0:48:08
my wife and my my kids, a relaxed
0:48:10
Saturday, glass of wine, some crisps or
0:48:14
chips as we call it, and a movie. That’s
0:48:16
just perfect.
Surprising Facts
0:48:17
What’s a surprising fact about you?
0:48:21
um that people think that I’m really
0:48:24
organized and disciplined, but I’m
0:48:25
actually completely chaotic and the only
0:48:28
way I can survive is having systems and
0:48:30
if I didn’t have the systems, I would
0:48:32
just live in chaos permanently. So, what
0:48:34
you see uh in terms of this organized
0:48:36
professional self is is just a coping
0:48:39
strategy for for the craziness that’s
0:48:40
behind the scenes.
Favorite Places
0:48:42
Where’s where’s one of your favorite
0:48:44
places you’ve been?
0:48:46
So, it’s where we used to live in the
0:48:48
French Alps. Um uh so we lived u um just
0:48:51
beside a town called Anacey where you
0:48:53
know you’ve got a beautiful lake that
0:48:55
you can swim in in the summer and you’re
0:48:56
right next to the mountains where you
0:48:58
can ski in the winter. So that’s one of
0:49:00
my top places in the world.
Travel Aspirations
0:49:01
Is there anywhere you want to go that
0:49:03
you haven’t been?
0:49:05
Yeah. You know what? Um I’ I’ve spoken
0:49:07
now in over 36 countries and um uh
0:49:12
ticked off all kinds of places around
0:49:13
the world. Uh more than that in terms of
0:49:15
place I’ve visited. I’ve still never
0:49:16
been to Japan. How’s that happened?
0:49:18
Wow. So that’s that’s really hype on my
0:49:20
list.
0:49:21
We got to get you a speaking gig in
0:49:22
Japan then. Hopefully some
0:49:23
Absolutely. Bring you in.
Best Advice
0:49:25
Uh best advice you’ve ever received.
0:49:29
Um it was to try to be the friend to
0:49:32
yourself that you aspire to be to
0:49:35
others.
0:49:37
I really struggle with self-compassion.
0:49:39
I’m very hard on myself and I try and
0:49:42
convince myself that that’s helpful, but
0:49:43
often it’s not. So, I give that advice
0:49:46
to other people because I’m always
0:49:49
giving it to myself as well.
Servant Leadership Importance
0:49:51
That hits deep for anyone high
0:49:52
performing. I think that’s like spot on.
0:49:54
So, I I like that. Uh, all right.
0:49:56
Finally, last question. People are
0:49:59
listening to this podcast on servant
0:50:01
leadership hearing you talk. Why should
0:50:02
they even care about being better
0:50:04
servant leaders?
0:50:07
Because ultimately when you get to the
0:50:10
end of your life and you’re reflecting
0:50:12
back on was it meaningful? I think a lot
0:50:16
of that meaning is going to emerge from
0:50:18
the impact that we had on others.
0:50:21
Did we did we love well? And you know
0:50:24
were we a good friend, a good father if
0:50:27
that’s relevant to you, a good boss. Um
0:50:31
and and so I think being a servant
0:50:33
leader matters because I I really think
0:50:35
that serving others um giving of
0:50:39
ourselves is really probably the
0:50:42
greatest meaning that we can derive from
0:50:44
this pretty short fragile life that we
0:50:46
have. So I know that’s that’s a little
0:50:49
bit morbid and it’s a bit of a shift in
0:50:51
gear but that is honestly my my
0:50:54
reflection on that question.
Closing Remarks
0:50:56
I love it. Well, thank you, James, for
0:50:58
all your wisdom, your knowledge, and
0:51:00
just sharing with us. What’s the best
0:51:02
way for people to go follow you and get
0:51:03
engaged in some of the stuff you’re
0:51:05
doing?
0:51:06
So, um, on my website, which you
0:51:08
mentioned you’d share, um, drshwitt.com.
0:51:11
I’ve got a newsletter there. I would
0:51:12
love it if people signed up to that and
0:51:13
hear from me on LinkedIn, um,
0:51:16
jamespwitt. I post regularly there as
0:51:18
well as on Instagram. So, feel free to
0:51:20
connect with me on any of those channels
0:51:22
and would really welcome the opportunity
0:51:23
to to continue the conversation with
0:51:25
people.
Podcast Outro
0:51:27
Love it.
0:51:29
Thank you for listening to this episode
0:51:30
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If
0:51:33
you enjoyed what you heard, please give
0:51:35
it a thumbs up [music] and leave a
0:51:37
comment below. Don’t forget to subscribe
0:51:40
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0:51:44
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0:51:46
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0:51:48
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