David Ratcliff's Intro

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Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast, we're joined by David Ratcliffe, a business leader turned global influencer

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with a passion for the next generation and servant leadership. With a background in publishing and business

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development, David has led multiple companies and now channels that experience into global initiatives,

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mentoring leaders, and helping build sustainable impact in developing countries. On this episode, you'll hear

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stories of adventure, mission, and moments of divine calling. All from a man whose life continues to inspire

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those around him to live with purpose and serve with joy. Whether you're mentoring others or just want to lead

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with deeper conviction, this conversation will encourage you to press on, finish well, and keep your eyes

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fixed on what really matters. David, thank you for joining us on the

Welcome David Ratcliff

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Servant Leadership Podcast. Chris, I'm honored to be here, my friend. I uh

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really appreciate the opportunity very much so. Uh I am so excited because you

David's Professional Journey From Skilled Trades To Computers

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have such a unique career journey turned into something that we'll get into. Uh

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talk about your professional career in the early days. I left school when I was

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uh 14 years old. Uh did a fitting and turning apprenticeship. uh went to night

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school, studied um for my mechanical engineering uh

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qualification. Uh won a a uh won the best apprentice of the year. I I think

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they were probably hard up for apprentices in that year. Uh then won a scholarship to go overseas. This is in

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1966. and um uh worked for David Brown and and probably uh viewers know they

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made at that point of time they owned the Aston Martin sports car um company

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and uh I worked in as a cadet engineer over there for two years. Most important

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thing that happened over there was I met my darling wife. Uh we've been married for 55 years. uh and um in

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1968 I was working in engineering but on the floor below me there was the

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computer department and uh uh I and in fact it wasn't I I I had no say in it

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but um and I believe it was a god thing I I got three months uh involved with um

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in the computer department and uh I remember all the sub rout we had to

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write in a in I think 64k programs and all in sub routines and I and I always

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knew my um my sub routines because I called them cobber and digger and all Australian names. So koala and kangaroo

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so they they knew my um uh my call sign.

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Uh I always wanted to be the best engineer as a young uh 20 snotty-nosed

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23 year old who felt well I'm going to conquer the world. And uh I realized

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when I was over there working with 40 top engineers that it it's not going to be as easy as I thought it was to be the

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best engineer. But when I saw computers then because we had no we those were the

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days no computers over here. Then I I saw I can show orders of magnitude

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improvement. So then I came back and introduced computers uh into the company

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and uh that was the that was the start of an amazing journey really and your journey from there you started your own

Starting a Software Computer Business and Academic Media Business

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businesses from there with that knowledge. Well I I suppose one of the things that was interesting to me and I

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love the I love the name of your uh podcast servant leadership. It's it's

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all to do with um people. You know, people used to think, "Oh, well, computers are difficult." No, they're

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not. You can draw a box around computers and get specialists in to fix your problems, but with people, it goes all

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over the place. So, the biggest challenge has always been the people. uh the um the I wrote a program over here

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which uh was pretty simple program but it it basically gave the gear

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technologist there were only two of them in Australia very specialized um and I

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introduced computers into that he was incredibly threatened by his job and he didn't want to have anything to do with

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it and so I took it as a challenge to um really uh show him that I wasn't worried

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about my I taught him how to program in forran the engineering language of the day. And uh so it started a really a

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really wonderful journey of um uh handling people and that and that sort

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of thing. And uh I knew every Monday morning some because computers were so

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new somebody would come in. I worked in the same office as he did and uh every

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Monday morning somebody would come in and bang the newspaper on the desk. Mrs. Jones has received a gas bill for $0 or

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something and they expect me to explain it. I would patiently say, "Well, it's not the computer, it's the people, etc.,

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etc." I knew I'd I'd won Lori over when uh Monday morning came. In comes

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somebody with a with their with their newspaper, banged it on the desk, and I was about to answer, and Lori answered

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for me, defending the computer. So, I I felt that was the day that I I'd won the

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situation. So then they asked me to go to Sydney to um head up their computer

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department and and and we just been married. We prayed about it and and decided no, we'd stay here, stay in in

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Melbourne. And so I then started my own uh uh software computer company and ran

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that for 39 years. And uh uh that was yeah, it was really good. We had about

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probably um 12 people in the company. I didn't want everybody told me I've got

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to grow and and I I thought why do I want to grow and get more problems? I was called into companies where uh

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people I the managing director I knew very well and I was called in to fix a problem and I thought well that's not

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his normal thing and and the fact that he'd grown so I was careful about that.

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in the middle of uh that um we were doing work for a company academic book

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and multimedia company and um uh when we finished up there was 90

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people in that company and we finished up uh buying the company. So uh that was

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uh that was an interesting journey. So yeah it's been it's been a good business life.

Servant Leadership Perspective In Business

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It's a fascinating journey because for decades you started and led multiple

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businesses and multiple industries and your clients were across lots of industries. Uh as you were leading in

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the business world, how did you see servant leadership play out if at all?

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You didn't see a lot of servant leadership, but I think the key to it was actual servant leadership. I I I go

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right back to my early days of of you know of integrity and and and

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serving and and I mean I I I think I I'll give you an

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example. Um I I my first client was a a book

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company in in in Melbourne. And uh he had he had no idea about computers. I

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put in a quote for uh $27,000. He got a quote from uh one of the um um big

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software big um department stores for $8,000 and he chose my my company and I

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never and now I mean the the $8,000 would have lasted him for 6 months as he grew. I'm putting him on a platform that

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he could grow and and I think we had elements of that of that system, you know, 30 years later still running. So

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um and he'd grown his business dramatically. I always wondered why did

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Colin choose me and uh after about I don't know we had we had his business for 30 years after about 20 years I I

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said Colin and he and he he wasn't a Christian you know I said Colin what you

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know you had two quotes why did you choose mine and he he he didn't hesitate he said David I I chose you because I

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felt I could trust you. So you know in that in that sense of I don't servant

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leadership but certainly in having integrity and and leadership as a Christian I mean it was uh people used

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to say to me gee it must be difficult to be a Christian and be in business. I'd say it's my greatest asset. It truly is.

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And and I we in 40 years in business uh we never I I think advertised once in a

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magazine which was a waste of money. We never advertised. It was all uh business

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out of out of relationship and uh I could tell you some amazing stories about that. So well on the journey at

From Business to Mission to Sustainability

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some point you decided to be done in that space and we'll talk more about what you got into but how did you decide

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it was time to start handing stuff off and to transition out? Well, I I don't think Chris, I ever

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transitioned out. I suppose early in my 20s, I was a youth leader with more hair than I've got now. And um I always

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wanted to become a minister. And uh I I you know, I passionately want I mean I I

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love God and I I thought well if I I in fact I think if you lined up a dozen people today and said what's the as a

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Christian what's the best thing you can do in your life? Well, I think nine out of 10 say become a minister and I I

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expected to do that. My best friend uh John Lewis, he become a minister, you know, he and run and that's how I I

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thought so in my early 30s I have a successful computer business and uh God

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had blessed that business and but I I wasn't happy. I was frustrated. I said to God, well, what are these computer

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programs doing for eternity? And I said to God, I don't want to waste the best years of my life on something that has

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no eternal value. And I got no answer. And so I knew enough, I've been taught

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enough by the great people around me that when you when you ask God something and you get no answer, you keep doing

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what you're doing. I thank God probably every second day that I didn't in my

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frustration become a minister. And if I had have, this is the crazy thing, Chris, my pastor friends would have

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welcomed me and said, "David, you know what took you so long, you know, you should have done this in the first place

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and that." So, I I went through my life as a businessman. Well, what can I do for

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God? And again, if you lined up a dozen uh business people today uh and ask them

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what what what's expected of you, I think nine out of 10 would say give money. Now, we did that and we did some,

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you know, wonderful things in in all of that, but I knew I just knew there was more. And in fact, I um I became the

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administrator of our church a day a week and uh uh trying to do five days of work

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in one place, two businesses by then I was involved with. So, life was unbelievably hectic and um uh but I I

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love that trying to do what I felt a Christian could do. And then uh uh our

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church is a hundred years old this year. Uh it's an iconic church. I I'm I've been in in our church now for 70 years

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this year. And so um it's always been an iconic mission church. And I love

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mission. We love giving to mission and all that. But and then one day in middle of the night, God woke me up and said,

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"I'm I'm calling you to be the the mission pastor." Now that freaked me totally out as administrator. I felt I

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had something to offer the church because I could bring it into the church. We had good city accountants and all this sort of stuff. But as mission

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pastor, I love mission, but we always had an ex-m missionary as our mission person. And um and so I I freaked out. I

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said to God, I have nothing to offer you. So if I came to you, Chris, and said, "I want a

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job." And I told you, I have nothing to offer you. I think you'd just say, "Well, don't waste my time. Let's go

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somewhere else." But I realized later when God said, "Okay, let me let me let

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me show you what I can do with somebody that has nothing to offer." So, he's going to get none of the glory of it,

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but he's willing to have a go. Then he's willing to to uh be obedient. Then, I

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mean, we had eight years of probably the most exciting uh eight years. I God was

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doing things you couldn't make happen. I could tell you many, many stories about that. But uh after eight years, God said

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step down. Now I still have my two businesses. The wonderful thing was when I God I I God called me to be the

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mission pastor. I God talked to me about

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sustainability. Don't have a handout mentality. And that's that's in early probably 1999 or something like so. So

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in those days sustainability was on the fringe of mission, but today it's front and center. But uh then I started to see

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what God was doing in the sense of I was the first businessman to be called to be

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the mission pastor in in in our in that church organization in Australia and it's an iconic mission church. I mean

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it's been mission from day one. So it was a pretty daunting task but I started

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to see what what God was doing about. So I then started to bring sustainability

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into mission. The other thing that at the same time God started talking to me about was you're not giving when we give

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our money, we're not giving to God because he owns the cattle on a thousand

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hills. We are God showed me we're investing in the kingdom. My goodness,

Investing in The Kingdom - Example in Kazakhstan

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that changed my whole uh investment uh or idea of of mission and money and that

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sort of thing. Uh I'll give you an example. Uh I was sitting at my desk on my day a

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week as as mission pastor and I got a an email from um uh our missionary in

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Kazakhstan and uh he run he ran a the only drug rehabilitation in Kazakhstan.

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I mean um amazing. And it was I mean I one day we were there a man drives up in

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a businessman drives up in his Mercedes with a son. Can you take my son? He's hopelessly addicted to drugs. And so it

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was a wonderful work. And I got a letter from from him saying, "David, we need I

15:05
just started as mission pastor. David, I need $120,000 uh to buy these these three Russian

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buildings because they made a law that you can only worship in buildings that you own." And I was I was so far out of

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my boat at the time, I couldn't even see the shore. And then I to get an email like this, our mission budget's totally

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committed and here I am being asked for $120,000. And so I our budget's

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committed. I wrote to a couple of friends of mine. In my heart of hearts, I knew this is not going to fly. And

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then I just felt this voice say as I was driving home, "What are you doing?" And

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I knew straight away God was talking to me about this situation of the money. And I I said to God, well, I've written

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these emails because, you know, we our budget's committed. He said, and these are the words that that I really felt,

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not in an audible way, h but really into my heart was this. He said, I'm not

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giving you I didn't send you this opportunity to give to other people. He said, I'm giving you, in fact, he said,

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I'm giving your family an opportunity to invest in the kingdom.

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And that's the first time I'd ever heard I think and I'm sure it was it's out there in in some book somewhere, but I'd

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never heard those that term before. Probably about two nights later, I was going out to uh my uh

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son-in-law's and daughter's place. Uh Simon, he he was a property developer.

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He is a property developer. And at the time, he was developing in the in the local area. As I was driving out, I saw

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a block of land with an old house on it and a for sale sign and next door a

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spare block of land. And I thought, wow, that's a good opportunity for Simon. I didn't realize that God was setting me

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up. I go out there. I said, Simon, I said, I saw a great opportunity for you today. And honestly, Chris, you know

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what he said to me? He said, "Dad, has it got a for sale sign on it?" I said, "Yeah, of course it has. How do you?" He

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said, "It's no good." I said, 'What do you mean it's no good?' He said, ' Dad, he said, 'We buy we buy our investment

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properties before they ever hit the street.' He said, ' If it hits the street, there's something wrong with it. They're asking too much money. There's a

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cave on. There's something wrong with it. And when he said that, this voice in my heart said, "Yes,

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that's how the world treat investment opportunities."

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God said to me, I'm giving you eternal investment opportunities. I mean, I asked my investment advisor,

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uh, you know, what's the best investment? He said, long-term. Well, God saying to me, I can give you eternal

17:47
investment that lasts forever. So, I went I went around the world in mission

17:52
looking for good investment opportunities. And the beautiful thing was that the and let me let me make sure

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I'm I'm not a super spirit. I don't, you know, I'm a pretty practical person, but God does impress things on my heart. And

18:08
and I I just really felt God say to me, you know, there are there are single moms in this church that are giving $20

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a month for mission. Your job is to in go and and find good investments for

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that money. Now, there were also people in our church giving hundreds of thousands of dollars, but God was saying

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to me, it's the single mom. and I it really impacted me and so I did I went around the world looking for

18:36
opportunities to invest in in the kingdom. I'll never forget um one time

Investing in The Kingdom - Example in Kenya

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we were in um uh in Kenya and I met two guys that had um

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just escaped from Eratria. one of them with two minutes to spare and they got they they got into

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Kenya and they were they said we've got to help our our Christian uh friends in

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in Eratria. So what they did was they started a a um uh probably in those days

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it wouldn't even be online. It was an online system beaming back into into

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Eratria, you know, u Bible studies and all this sort of stuff. I think it they did it by email. I think what they were

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doing, they didn't have any money. They you just escaped with nothing. what they

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were doing, they went to a um a um internet cafe type thing, how they

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organized it. They they got the computer, they they got the demonstration software from from

19:46
Microsoft. They scrubbed the disc, loaded the demonstration software up for

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which ran for 30 days. for 30 days they beamed into area and they were getting

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you know I think probably 80 or 90 uh emails probably in a I was a day or a

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really good uh input into Eratria and at the end of 30 days the the software

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would run they'd scrub the disc and and reload the software and as a computer

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person when I heard this I I never in fact it's as real today as it was then I

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said to them look I said I'm I'm one of a three member executive in my mission team. So I can't make a decision on my

20:27
own. But let me say I want first option on this. Please don't invest it so I can

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get back and talk. And of course they agreed and we invested in that. So I I

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just love the the the um concept of investing in in in the

20:45
kingdom. know I think it's Matthew uh 6 of course Jesus said uh do not lay up

20:50
for yourself treasure on earth but lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven and I I I I say to people when the GFC hit I

20:59
said I have two investment portfolios I have my eternal investment portfolio and my earthly investment portfolio the only

21:06
investment portfolio that was impacted was my earthly one my heavenly one lived on and so yeah when I got that um uh

21:14
email uh for the for that $120,000. Uh I said to God, "Well, I

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don't have the money." And he he said to me, "What about that investment property you had you have?" And I knew then I'm

21:27
I'm in trouble. But honestly, I I just I I think um I I talk to business people

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uh you know, and and uh I I say to them, you know, I I I love my pastor friends,

21:40
but I as a successful businessman, I would get a request from my pastor. Can

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you David, can you come to a meeting? And and I would say in my mind,

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uh how much money do you want? And secondly, can I write a check for a few

21:56
hundred and stay home with my family? And and you know, I I look at the eyes of the business guys, honestly, uh

22:03
Chris, it it's there. They asked the same thing. And and there's just so much more. I mean, I did that for eight years

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and and and I loved it. At the end of the of that time, we had a change of pastor and God said to me, step down

22:18
from the board. I've been on that for 20 years. I don't mind that. Let's some young ones say other but God said to me

Stepping Down From Being a Mission Pastor

22:24
step down as mission pastor and I I said what I said you got me so far out of my

22:31
boat I can't see the shore and and you've done God did amazing we quadrupled our mission giving it was

22:36
just out of control not not from my point I had nothing to offer but boy I tell you what God brought people in did

22:43
amazing stuff we did a container for Kazakhstan it was just it was out of

22:48
control and then God said step down I I I I I was I said that can't be right.

22:56
But I just really sought God and he said, "No, step down." The beautiful thing was I wasn't getting paid as

23:03
mission pastor or as administrated. I used that as part of my my um giving to

23:09
the Lord, investing in the Lord. And um so I could step down. I'm 57 years old

23:15
and uh I could step down um and uh because I'm not getting paid. So I made

23:22
that decision to step down. Now I really struggled with that because

23:29
that was a real life blood to me. In fact, let me also say I want to be a pastor when I'm 30. God said you can be

23:36
a pastor but but not until you're 50. So 20 years I I am now a ordained minister.

23:43
So I just think you know that timing of the Lord and and all of those things and

23:48
and having that that servant heart I guess to to say hey Lord you know I'm

23:54
I'm I'm not a CEO. I think I that beautiful scripture you Jesus said the

23:59
fields are white to harvest but the laborers are few. Not not not the CEOs

24:05
are few. And and this is the thing. Pray that the Lord of the harvest will thrust

24:10
forth laborers into his harvest field. He's the Lord of the harvest. He's the He's the CEO. I'm a laborer. And I and I

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think that servant heart I think is the key uh you know to what I God taught me

24:25
in in mission and and in life in that sort of thing. So after after I stood

Moving Into "Business As Mission" - Christian Entrepreneurs

24:32
down um I had this hole in my heart for mission. Now, as busy as ever, I have

24:37
still my two businesses to run, but I'm I'm I got a whole heart for mission. And

24:44
um uh a friend of mine from Perth who I thank regularly

24:51
uh was in India with a a a a friend there who now a very dear

24:57
friend of mine who I didn't know and uh he said this Indian friend mission uh

25:05
organization said I'm I'm having a youth on fire conference for 800 young people.

25:11
I've got breakout sessions but I've got nobody to speak on my Christian entrepreneurs and and Neville said I

25:18
know just the man for you David Rackliffe. So I get this phone call from India after I'd stood down and will you

25:26
come and speak to the Christian entrepreneurs and uh I said yes I'll

25:31
come. I never forget we laugh about it today. He said do you want to pray about I said no I don't I'm desperate. I need

25:37
some miss I need some mission. And so I went over there, Chris, I I could take

25:43
you to the room today if you took me to that to that place. I have 15 young people in that room and I'm I'm talking

25:49
to them about using business for mission. Now I'm in my zone. That's who

25:54
I am. I'm a Christian entrepreneur and I'm going for it. And and again, I say to you, I'm not a super spir. I honestly

26:01
in the middle of that I this not audible again but this voice said to me clearly

26:08
remember you asked me what are these computer programs doing for eternity and

26:14
I got this this like this I mean even when I say it now I'm emotional I get this hologram of my life it just went

26:21
whoosh and I realized I've been prepared all my life for what I'm I'm now doing

26:27
uh every failure every success Yes, every thing that I've been taught about

26:33
servant leadership, all of that I I've been prepared for what I'm doing now.

26:39
And for the last 13 years, we've been working in India and Nepal uh with

26:45
this wonderful partner and and it's not our mission, it's his it's his we're we're helping him, we're serving him in

26:52
that in that sense and uh basically teaching young people how to start a business and stay on with their

26:58
families. And so, uh, I think that's that's that's where I'm at at the moment. It's it's so f powerful. You

The Importance of Family

27:06
went from just building an empire to now caring about mission and the next

27:12
generation. Uh, when you started I and I know multiple people you've worked with,

27:17
including myself, but talk about the next generation and and why that became

27:22
so important to you. Uh, and what you have started focusing on now. How long

27:27
have we got? You got time? I I I I I say the I mean

27:34
my my my greatest mission field is my family. I think I think that's the key.

27:39
I I I think um I see so many people, you know, with

27:45
a with a call of God on their lives that that really charge off to do it, but the

27:51
family gets damaged, the kids get damaged. And I think early on I was doing the same. I mean in my early um uh

27:59
years. I mean well let me go back right back. If you said to me what was my

28:06
first year of marriage like? I would say fantastic. Uh if you ask my wife, which

28:13
I'm glad she's not, she would say it was a pretty tough year because I was I thought, "Wow, I'm the

28:21
head of the family. I'm I'm I'm I'm going for it here and I want my own way and I have my own way and my wife was,

28:28
you know, serving me and and I God's taught me over the years that, you know, the way to a successful marriage is is

28:35
servant leadership. Yes, provide leadership, but serve your wife. Find

28:41
out what God put in her heart. What what's God put in her heart and help her

28:46
fulfill her dreams? I I I I find that so important. and with our with our

28:51
children exactly the same. And um I could tell you stories about that. My goodness, I started off in fact my early

28:58
business. I was going for business. You know, if you said to me, why are you doing it? I would say I'm I'm doing it

29:05
uh for my family. It was an absolute rotten lie. I was doing it cuz I love business. Sometimes we work 22 hours a

29:11
day to put a system in or something. And and we loved it. But and and I think uh

29:16
later on then God spoke to me really and said to me, you know, if you keep going, you're going to do damage to family. And

29:23
my wife spoke to me at the same time. So I say when your wife and God speak to you, that's pretty serious stuff. So we

29:31
just tweaked the model. Uh that's all we did. We bought bikes. We went bike riding as as family. I was traveling

29:37
overseas a lot in my business and um we I just traded in my business class fair.

29:43
took the family with us and we had some amazing holidays. Pala's relatives are in were in England at the time and I'd

29:50
do my business in America or Germany or wherever and and then we'd meet up and we stumbled on skiing as a as a

29:58
something that we could all do together. I remember Chris looking at sometimes the cost of that that holiday and

30:05
thinking just as a responsible businessman, praise God, I I we had the money to do it, but I looked at the cost

30:12
and I thought, wow, that's a lot of money to spend on a holiday. And I look at it today and I I

30:20
would spend double that amount and not even blink. And in fact, I don't say I

30:26
am now saying it to a lot of people, I suppose, but I would I personally I wouldn't

30:32
never recommend it, but I would borrow money to do it. And and the reason is this. I say to young people,

30:40
uh you know, if you buy a car that that turns out to be a lemon, what we call in

30:46
Australia a disaster, you can buy another car. If I start a career uh and

30:51
I don't like it, then I can start another career. I could start another career today if I wanted to. I'm not

30:58
going to, but I could. Um, if I buy a house, the only thing holding it up are

31:03
the termites holding hands. Well, that's not good. But I can get another house.

31:08
But here's the here's a sobering thing. I get one shot at my marriage and I get one shot at bringing up my kids. And so

31:15
if you sacrifice God and family on the altar of business or ministry, I see

31:21
people in in ministry doing the same thing. We have a thing they call the preachers kid syndrome. I mean, what a

31:27
crazy thing. You're out there teaching about family and servant life and and and you're messing up your kids. I mean,

31:33
so that that's been the real the real challenge to me. about 23 years ago, a young man came to

The Importance of The Next Generation

31:41
me called Ash Cooper and uh he was our top young gun in the church. He said,

31:46
"David, can I talk to you?" Uh because just before that, God put in my heart,

31:52
he said, "I'm calling you to help raise up the next generation." And I said, I said I said to God, "That that's great,

31:59
Lord, but but why would young people want to talk to this old fella? I'm probably 23 years ago, so I'm I'm 57 or

32:07
something. And um anyway, all again, I said, "God, I'm willing, but you know, I

32:12
don't think this is going to go very far." Wow. Ash Cooper come to me. He said, "David, can I talk to you?" I said,

32:18
"Ash, you can talk to me, but I want to talk to you. I want some of your faith

32:24
steps. I want some of your get up and go." I don't know. I don't know what it is,

32:30
but we as older people should be far ahead of the of of the pack because

32:37
we've proved God a thousand times. I can I can tell you hundred stories of God in

32:43
my business. I prayed from my a computer one day and and God fixed the problem. I

32:49
I can tell you hundred stories. But the thing is as you get older I my my observation

32:55
is that we become more conservative. We take less risks. You know people my

33:02
older friends are saying they don't say it out loud but what they are saying by

33:08
their their uh body language and David when are you going to slow down you know when are you going to stop doing these

33:15
we just got back from India in Nepal. When are you when are you gonna when are you gonna stop it? I I'm going to stop it when I'm I'm flat in a in a box. So,

33:23
but they but the the reason is that I've spent the last 23 years with this

33:31
wonderful group of young people and I I I love it. Now, it's not it's not um uh

33:39
how do I put it? It's a two it's a two-way street. A lot of older people are saying, "Well, younies are doing it

33:44
wrong. They they you know um dressing crazy and all." I'll tell them what to do, what they're doing wrong. No, no. I

33:52
I I say no, don't do that. You know, get from

33:57
them the energy and the faith steps that that we need. And then we add the I

34:04
don't even call it wisdom. I call it experience, right? I mean now and and

34:10
God gives me wonderful opportunities. When I see a young people in their 20s starting a business, I want to have

34:15
coffee with them because I know what it was like. And I I I say to them, don't

34:22
sacrifice family on the altar of business or or or ministry. And we've

34:28
had some great conversations. I had a young man um just recently and uh I I

34:37
heard of him through my grandkids. My grandkids said, "Hey, this guy Pete, he

34:43
is a wonderful youth leader." And so I thought to myself, I knew he was a into

34:48
business as well. I thought, "Gee, I'd love to have coffee with him." The next thing I see on Facebook, he's going around the world with his with his wife,

34:55
backpacking around the world. I think, gee, I' I'd love to I'd love to have coffee with you. And I I didn't want to

35:01
push myself or anything. He comes back to Australia and um about three months later, I get a phone call from Pete.

35:09
He said, "David," he said, "I've been wanting to talk to you for a long time." He said, "But I haven't been ready." He

35:14
said, he said, "I want to start my business." He said, "And I want to make it a kingdom business." He said, "I I

35:21
just want it to be a business with a purpose." He said, "Can I talk to you?" I said, "I know, Pete. I'm not

35:27
interested in that." No. I said, "Pete, I'd love to talk to you." And honestly, I wrote him, and this is the other

35:33
thing. I said and it's a simple thing but but it blows him away. I said to

35:39
said, "Look, I've got I got more time than you have. I'll come to you." And he thought, "What?" You know, normally if I

35:46
talk to I got to come to them. No, I'll come to you. I rode my ebike down there. And um we sat in this cafe. I mean, I I

35:55
meet with my older friends and we start at 7:00, but the youngies start at 9:00. So, we started at 9:00 for coffee and we

36:03
had one coffee and we started at 9:00. We were still going at 20 1. I'm He's

36:10
been on mission now with me and all that. So, I just I love that connection.

36:15
Not only not only um in a spiritual sense, but even in a physical sense. a a

36:22
a a young one of our young friends, Kate. She rang me up one day and she said, "David,

36:28
um we're doing a a a hike in the center of Australia on the it's called the Lara

36:33
Pinta Trail." She said, "Would you and Pamela be interested in in doing that?" I said, "Kate, I'd love to." I said,

36:40
"What's involved?" She said, "Oh, well, it's it's uh 15k a day for about five or six days." And I said, "I'd love to do

36:48
that." But I said, "I'm not so sure about Pamela. This is probably about 15 years ago. Anyway, so I said to Pamela,

36:55
you know, D, would you would we'd like to do that? And she said, I'd love to. So, we trained for it. Our daughter

37:01
lives in Ringwood. We live in Bowwin and the church is another 8 and a halfk

37:07
away. As we train, my daughter said, "Well, I'll come down to to your place

37:12
and then we'll hike in in do the last 8 and 1 halfk." The first first time I ever did it, I I nearly killed me. But

37:19
we h we we did that. Even if we didn't do the hike, it would have been fantastic. We had time with our daughter

37:24
that I can't have today. She's got two young boys, so I can't do it. So, it was a wonderful We did this hike. It

37:31
absolutely fantastic. Now, it changed my whole perspective. My perspective of tourism was get in your car, you drive

37:38
to a a waterfall, you walk 200 m, you see the waterfall, take some photos, and go back and have a three course lunch.

37:44
Now, we go hiking. We we I've done nearly 10,000 ks on my ebike. So it even

37:52
that in a physical sense changed my whole my whole uh dynamic. Now I just

37:57
imagine I get with my my my beautiful and I love them to bits, but I get with my older friends and and they say, "Hey,

38:04
let's let's go on a hike on the Larabina trail. It ain't going to happen." And so

38:11
it's uh from a spiritual point of view, from a physical point of view, the next

38:16
generation. My two passions in life after family are next generation and mission. And and so uh I uh and and and

38:25
I love it because at 80 years old, uh everybody's next generation. So my field of the next generation is widening.

38:33
It feels like It really does feel like as you've gotten older, you've only ramped it up, which is so rare. A good

Discerning Where To Spend Your Time

38:40
shot. Yeah. When you think through the next generation, you think mission and

38:46
you think the time you still have to make a difference, how do you choose?

38:51
Because so many people are calling you asking for money or help or advice or

38:56
input or to come visit them. Even myself included, come visit me in Chicago,

39:01
right? there's so many people who are pulling at you. How do you discern where to spend your time? I think the the key

39:09
even now with what we're doing in India and Nepal and and we've been doing that for 13 years. Um I I

39:18
think that that applica that can apply in so many different places. It really

39:23
and I feel in my heart that there are other places for it to happen. But I

39:28
really say to myself, God, I don't want to make it happen myself. You know, I

39:35
want to be a minister. I'm in my early 30s. If I if I had have made that, I could make that happen. But I didn't.

39:42
And God in his timing at 50 50 something said you can now now now it's time. And

39:50
so I my my way of doing it is I've even had I've even had prophetic words that I

39:57
really just put on the shop and say God in your time. My favorite verse is

40:02
Exodus 33:15 and it says Moses said to God, "If your presence doesn't go with us, my my

40:10
my translation is let's not get out of bed. Let's not go anywhere without the leading of the Holy Spirit." And that

40:16
that's my yard stick. You know, God when and I'm in the middle of it now. I've got I'm talking to some beautiful

40:23
friends who are saying, "Wow, David, this would be wonderful in in the area of mission that we're doing in another

40:29
country." And I say and and I could make it happen. We've got all the thing to

40:35
do. But I say, you know, I want to wait until God opens the door, not me push

40:41
the door down. And I think that's a that's a real a real key. I mean, I, you

40:47
know, we're so enthusiastic to do stuff. I mean I in

"Business As Mission" In Nepal

40:53
in the work that we're doing in in um India and Nepal, I mean we we started

40:58
out teaching these young people how to use business for mission. I mean last year 800,000 young people left Nepal for

41:07
overseas. Now that decimates community I mean one young man said to me 70% of the

41:14
men in my village live work away from home. Now, we're talking about the poorest of the poor, but you know that

41:21
that's devastating and and I know that's what God's got us there absolutely for. And um it was a beautiful thing

41:29
because we we've been doing that for uh we been and and what we're doing is

41:35
we're teaching them using business principles. We're teaching them to we

41:41
call it plan on a page, but it's a business plan, you know, condensed down.

41:47
We're doing the same business principles. And the thing I love about it that the friends that God's put

41:53
around me are the cream of the crop, our our best. You know, I got one dear

41:59
friend of mine who's been on mission with me twice and invests in it uh every

42:05
year. He said to me, I'm I'm helping. He's a business consultant. He said, "I'm helping people that have got

42:11
millions of dollars to make more millions of dollars. What am I doing for eternity?" I take him to India and and

42:17
and lead the team over there. And honestly, I I've got a photo of him

42:22
sitting on the floor surrounded by these beautiful young people. He's the he's the best of the best. And he's a lot

42:28
more trendy than me. He's got hair and a lot younger than me. And they are lapping it up. And he said to me,

42:34
"David, that's where I find fulfillment." And and I think that's the that's that's the beautiful thing. I

42:40
mean in this last uh trip in 2015, this young man in in the

Example of Impact of "School of Business As Mission"

42:48
Himalayas came to the school of businesses mission. We taught principles of business and and and that and um he

42:56
went back to his his village up in the M. It's the worst. We did it this just

43:02
about a week ago. I I did it. Our partner Ron said, "David, it's the worst

43:07
road I've ever been on in my life." Now, if if your Indian partner says that, then that's a bad road. It was a bad

43:14
road, let me tell you. But when I got there, he this young man had been to the school of business's mission. He went

43:21
back and and he was taught to be a servant. You know, we talked servant leadership. I see more servant

43:26
leadership over in these countries than I ever do in a in Australia.

43:32
He went back to his home instead of starting his own business. He said, "Let me help others start their business

43:38
because they are, you know, very poor in that in that village." And so he's he's

43:44
helped somebody start a pigory, a uh goats, uh um bees, beekeeping. So all

43:53
these lifting them from subsistence to really good level where they can send their kids to a proper school and all

43:58
this sort of stuff. He then starts his own moringa and coffee plantation as well. He then he starts his own maringa

44:05
tea which is a power food or something. He's now distributing 250 kgs a month

44:10
and he can't keep up with demand. He's now developing new land for that. So he served his community and then went and

44:18
did his own business and and I said, you know, to him, you know, God's going to bless that when you serve others and

44:24
then and God's going to bless your there. So that that was a a wonderful thing. But the beautiful thing was we

Expanding The Impact in Nepal During Covid

44:30
did it up until co and the the demand for it was was uh was good. So 5 years

44:38
in one of the guys said to me David we should document what we're doing

44:43
and I said uh that would be a good idea. So the team got together and they

44:49
documented what we were doing. December 2019 they handed me the the curriculum

44:57
and uh I was excited. I thought, well, wow, a new member comes, we'll be able to give him that, and this is what we

45:02
do, and it's got all the stuff in it. God's up there saying, David, you

45:07
you have no idea what I'm doing, but just keep being obedient. And uh March 2020, CO

45:15
strikes. Millions of people around the world lost their jobs in boats and

45:22
laborers in Dubai. all around the world. There's a photo in the New York Times of a sea of people walking home because

45:29
President Modi uh stopped the transport. So these people then so the

45:36
the the lure of overseas is tarnished dramatically. I got a phone call from our partner David, we need you

45:43
desperately. And um because now the demand is just through the roof. People

45:48
are saying wives are saying darling don't please don't go back. This is a disaster. Some of them walked a thousand

45:55
kilometers to get home. And um I said I said to our partner I said well we have

46:00
the privilege of living in the most locked down city in the world Melbourne Australia. And so I said we we can't

46:07
come. So he said well uh we've got the curriculum. So he said we can translate

46:14
that. So they translated into their three languages now they've translated it. And they he took young people that

46:23
had not only started successful businesses in that last 10 years, but that had caught the vision of what it

46:30
was about keeping fathers home with their families and they are now running it themselves. Now we used to run it and

46:36
and and do it and that was that was great. But now they're running it themselves. So wow. I said to Pamela

46:43
before we left on a a big overseas trip. I said, "Darling, I've got to go back." When I heard what was happening, I said,

46:48
I got they ran 20 mini schools in 20 months. That would take us 20 years to

46:55
do. Such was the demand. And so now, instead of going over to run the thing,

47:00
we're now going over to train the trainer, coach, just, you know, just

47:06
look at the fruit of what's happening. I just I just got back two days ago, and it it's it's harvest time over there.

47:12
It's it's unbelievable. And it's not, you know, when you got this horrible thing of the we're the white man, we've

47:19
got all the answers, we got the money, we got the ideas, and they feel see themselves down here. And um the

47:26
beautiful thing is now it's a peer-to-peer relationship. They say, "Well, it's all all right for you as a

47:32
white man to say you can do this." We could never attain to that. And we try to break that down by sharing failure

47:37
and all this, but it's such a hard thing to do. Now it's it's well I thought it was peer-to-peer and um I I was saying

47:45
to our partner in India I said isn't it wonderful that now it's it's a peer-to-peer thing he smiled and said to

47:52
me well let me tell you something he said one of the key leaders I just met him a couple of days

47:57
ago he is from a lower cast than the than the average cast because I mean

48:02
even in Christian circles his rotten cast system is there said he's from a lower cast he's teaching higher

48:09
So if a lower cast says you can do of course I can do it. It is honestly on

48:15
every front Chris it is it is it is just um it's a wonderful thing to to see that

48:21
uh serve it it's serving the people. We're serving the people but now they

48:27
are serving their own and seeing wonderful results. Yeah. It's amazing to just think through the journey of

48:35
running and starting and running your own businesses to going on mission to

48:40
walking with the next generation and now seeing them really step up and rise up and really take things further than you

48:47
could have ever done it. You know, now it's so cool to see this progress. Um,

48:52
David, I want to ask you 10 rapid fire questions. Sure. Where you just say the

10-Rapid-Fire Questions

48:58
first words that come to your mind. Okay. There's no wrong answers, but

49:03
who's the first person you think of when I say servant leadership?

49:08
Can I tell the story? Is it Sure. I know. I know who it is. It's Pastor Patrick in

Servant Leadership Example In Uganda

49:17
Uganda. I went I went over there. He had 13 churches under his um um covering if

49:26
you like. We got involved as a church. This is in my mission days now. And um

49:34
we went one year and we took 50 of his leaders. I really felt God say to me, get 50 of his leaders and have a

49:42
minister to them. Not about the projects, but about their marriage, family, their relationship with God, and

49:49
that sort of stuff, a personal thing. And so we went there. We got 50 of his leaders. We took him to a hotel. his his

49:56
right-hand man thanked us for taking us to a carpeted place. Can you believe? They'd never been to a carpet. I had I

50:02
had my team with me and they were complaining about the water was cold and all this sort of stuff. I I I'm not a

50:08
good team leader. I I wear a sandwich board. On the front it says I don't know. On the back it says I don't care

50:15
cuz they are all first world problems. Anyway, thank you for taking us to a

50:20
carpeted place. After they heard that, the team heard that I never had any more complaints. But anyway, we did our first session. It was

50:27
morning tea time. And so his leaders were all up standing around the bar

50:33
getting their the their coffee and and biscuits and whatever. Pastor Patrick is

50:38
sitting on his own. And I I said to myself, why is he sitting on I'm a curious person. Why is

50:44
he sitting on his own? He had no cup of tea with him. So I went over to him. I said, "Pastor Patrick, um, can I help

50:50
you?" He said, "No, I'm waiting." So my curiosity went to another level. I

50:56
thought, "What's he waiting for?" And so I asked him, I said, "Pastor Patrick, what are you waiting for?" He said, "I'm

51:03
waiting for my brethren to be served first." I thought, "Oh my goodness, here

51:10
it is. So if there's not enough food, I'm prepared to go without." I mean, how

51:15
related to Jesus that is. So So I I look at it. I've organized a couple of national conferences here for our our

51:22
church movement and I mean I get instructions well and and I agree with it. Let's you know we got to look after

51:28
our leaders. I'm all for that and respect them and and all that but honestly our our top boys and top guys

51:36
they do not sit and wait for all the other delegates to be served first and I

51:42
I mean I but there was a great example of servant leadership. Yeah, that's great. All right. Five words that most

51:48
describe you. I love my wife more than I've ever loved her before. I think

51:53
that's Yeah, that sums it all up. I love that. Favorite author or book?

52:00
Gee, you're hitting the hitting the notes here. So,

52:06
I love this. This is this is great, Chris. I I really love this. Yes. So uh

52:12
our my mission partner in in India said why don't we write a why don't we write a book putting out to

52:20
um how how um a businessman in the in the in the west can grow up you know as

52:28
as a Christian and then how how we met and I mean it was it was an amazing and and what what God's doing. So we we have

52:35
written a book, Chris. It's Wow. It's on file. I'm I'm intimidated. I suppose I

52:42
I've written it as a story. He's written it as more an academic thing, which is which is, you know,

52:48
counterculture. And I I'm just concerned about but but on this last trip, we just

52:54
got there now, my a dear friend of mine who I've been doing mission with forever said to me, "David, you got to do

53:00
something about the book." So I take that as an actual um a

53:05
um yes a sign really again another confirmation that we got to do something about it. So he's now taking it to a

53:11
copyriter. So it's on its way but we've got to write a couple of extra chapters because this is precoid we we had it and

53:18
so now I got to because I mean now it's it's I mean up until then we thought it was good. Now what God's done is just

53:25
taken it to another level. Yeah. Wow. That's a cool story. Favorite movie? I

53:30
don't watch I don't watch a lot of movies to be honest with you. Really? Okay. Favorite food.

53:38
Favorite food? Um my wife does a

53:45
um being from Yorkshire, she does roast beef, Yorkshire pudding, onions and

53:50
gravy. And I tell you, it is her signature dish. And I and I love it. All right. Favorite thing to do in your free

53:57
time? haven't got a lot. I I think we don't do enough of it,

54:04
but I mean, we're retired, but to have a date day with my with my wife really

54:10
because, you know, even though we live live together, we're both doing stuff and all that sort of stuff just to take

54:16
time uh to spend with it. And now we got 10 grandkids. I mean, that takes up time

54:22
to. And again, this this urgency in my heart that I hammer the young people

54:27
about is in my heart because now my grandkids are growing up. In fact, uh we've got grandkids from 4 to 19 or 20.

54:37
And um uh my daughter Belinda's got twins, twin boys, 18 years old. And I

54:43
was complaining the other day. I said, "Belinda, I don't see enough of the boys." And she said, "Dad, we don't see

54:49
much of them either." So that window of opportunity is goes before you can blink

54:55
an eye. Chris, you you got the young ones. I mean, I I I say to young I mean

55:02
I rang up my uh Simon one day and I said, Simon, um the greatest investment

55:08
you'll ever make is in your kids and your and and your wife. And I mean, we

55:13
spend so much of our time on our business. I mean, this is the the craziness of it. We think I mean I I was

55:21
you know chairman of this company, owner of my and doing this stuff and and you

55:27
feel you're important but when I'm gone the ripple in the pond is is gone almost

The "Ripple In The Pond" - Investing In Your Family

55:33
within seconds but if I have messed up my family and ignored them for all that

55:40
time. Can I tell you a story? Sure. We were in England, right? We're on one of these I did them a business trip. Uh we

55:47
we caught up as family. We're in London. We were in a in a a lovely guest house

55:53
there. We were downstairs in the basement having our English breakfast and there's five of us and we were just

55:59
having fun. We would have said grace. We would have just Yeah. Anyway, we noticed I noticed a lady sitting across from us.

56:06
She'd probably be 55 and uh well-dressed, you know,

56:11
refined lady. And uh she just sat there and when when the kids had finished breakfast, dad, we can we go? Okay,

56:18
we're going. And so Pamela and I just sitting there. We didn't even speak to her. She started talking. My goodness

56:24
me. And here's the story. She said, "My husband gave everything to his

56:32
business. He was absolutely committed." She said he had no time for me. She had

56:37
no time for my kids. And she was on hear this. He was at home and she's on

56:44
holidays on her own. Such was the breakdown of the relationship. I mean, I couldn't believe it. And she said, "He

56:50
he did this for 20 years or whatever." And one day, the company found somebody that can do it 20% better than he can.

56:58
And they they said, "We don't want you anymore." She said it was it devastated him. And then she said something that

57:05
that brings a tear to my eye to this day. She said, "You know what he does now?" I said, "No." She said he sits at

57:12
home in his rocking chair waiting for the kids to come home, but they don't.

57:18
Breaks my heart. Done. You know, I can do everything else. I can buy a new car,

57:23
new house, new, but I can't retrieve that. So, and the opposite's the case.

57:28
The opposite's the case. If you invest in family, I mean, we had some we had some

57:34
amazing We haven't done it perfectly, but we used to have fatherdaughter days, father-son days. I mean I mean investing

57:41
in that you know if you if you don't do it now when the opportunity is there you

57:47
can't it's the only thing I think you can't repeat. Yeah. So it's so important. So investment in your in your

57:53
kids is is so important. All right. What's a surprising fact about you?

58:02
The surprising fact about me is I would I love singing but singing doesn't love

58:08
me. in in in fact in Australia they wouldn't let me the thing when I went to England

58:15
in my 20s they said to me David would you like to join the youth choir I said I would love to and so I joined the

58:22
youth choir because they didn't know anything and so we had practice on a Tuesday night and we'd be singing and I

58:28
I love singing I was singing as loud as I could and the choir director would say there's a just a problem with the guys

58:35
just the men only sing so I used to mime I used to just lip sync it and I lasted

58:41
in the choir for for two two years. So I I the Bible says the last first shall be

58:46
last last be first. So I reckon I might be going for choir director in in heaven. All right favorite place you've

58:53
been when I was in business and I got called into into mission. My first mission trip was to Thailand and

59:01
um I used to stay in the best hotels. You'd fly business class and do all that. My first mission trip, they put me

59:07
in this, you could barely call it a hotel. I'm lying on a bed uh that was as hard

59:16
as nails that I would ne I would never do in my business life. Well, I was in my business life, but in on a business

59:23
trip. Um I there were cockroaches running around the the room. I'm lying there in

59:30
tears saying, "God, this is where I belong." Wow. cuz I realize I'm

59:36
fulfilling what God's called me to do in mission. Is there anywhere in the world

59:41
that you want to go that you have not been to? Alaska, I suppose. Okay. And

59:47
finally, what's the best advice you've ever gotten? Well, I I I think have a

59:52
have a servant heart. You know, I I I love that. I I think, you know, as I

1:00:00
said, Exodus 33:15, you know, Moses said to God, you know, if your presence doesn't go, if you're not led by your by

1:00:06
the Holy Spirit, I mean, we're wasting our time. And uh so many things where we

1:00:12
think this is the way to do it and and and I'm enthusi God lead you and guide you. Just

1:00:20
be a laborer in in the harvest field. I think that's beautiful. I mean, a laborer says to his boss, "Boss, what do

1:00:28
you want me to do today?" And the boss says, "I want you to build a brick wall

1:00:34
six bricks high, two bricks wide from here to here." Now, the laborer doesn't say, "Well, boss, you know, are you sure

1:00:40
that's in the right position? Uh, are you sure it's going to handle the load that that's going to come onto it?"

1:00:46
After a couple of questions, the boss will say, "Would you mind just shutting up and just do as I'm telling you?" And

1:00:53
I think I I mean in my early days I spent my life at the altar. God, I need

1:00:58
the five-year plan. What are you going to do? Honestly, Chris, if God gave me, he didn't give me the five year. But if

1:01:04
he had have, you know, if I had have got a f in my mind, I would limit what God

1:01:09
wanted to do in my life. I look back and say, man alive. I in my wildest wildest

1:01:15
wildest dreams, I would never believe that God did has done what he's done in my in my life. And so I think be a

1:01:23
laborer and then you don't have don't worry about, you know, the five-year

1:01:29
plan, all that sort of stuff. Be a good labor and do do what he calls you to do

1:01:35
today with all the enthusiasm, the strength, and the energy that you can

1:01:40
muster without worrying about the rest of it. And I and I think that's the way I think it's a good way to live. That's

1:01:47
amazing. Well, David, thank you for joining and sharing your story, sharing wisdom with our audience. I'm so excited

Closing

1:01:53
for them to hear from you. All right. Thanks very much, Chris. Appreciate it. Really do. Thank you for listening to

1:01:58
this episode of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard, please give it a thumbs up and leave a

1:02:05
comment below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit the notification bell to never

1:02:11
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