Frank Carone's Intro

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Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast, we're joined by Frank Coron. Ranked as one of the most powerful people in New

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York, Frank Coron has spent his life navigating law, politics, and business at the highest levels. He built one of

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Brooklyn's top law firms and has advised some of the most influential leaders in the country, including New York City

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Mayor Eric Adams, whom he served as chief of staff. Frank now leads Oak Tree Solutions, a strategic advisory firm,

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and is the author of Everyone Wins, a book on creating outcomes where relationships thrive and no one loses.

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In this episode, Frank shares what it takes to lead in complex spaces and the difference between power and influence.

Welcome Frank Carone

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Frank, thank you for joining us on the Servant Leadership Podcast. Uh, thank you so much, Chris. is great

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to be here and I'm looking forward to having a robust discussion with you. I'm going to start us out with an

Frank's Career Journey

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interesting one. I was reading something online about you and you were rated one

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of the most powerful people in all of New York in 2025. Uh which that doesn't

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come by accident. Talk about your journey to become one of the most powerful people on a significant report

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that came out. Well, first don't believe everything you read. Second, it's embarrassing for me to even

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comment on something like that. I can't I'll just talk about my career and why

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that perception uh exists that reporters uh wrote something like that. You know,

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Democratic Party for many many many many years through three different county leaders. Um, and Brooklyn, you know, is

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the largest Democratic county in the United States of America. So, it's not insignificant. Senator Schumer, head of

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the one point head of the United States Senate, Kim Jeff, the leader of the

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House of Representatives, stem from Brooklyn, the mayor of city of New York, the attorney general of the state of New

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York, all come from the burrow and the burrows of Democratic organization. So,

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it started with sort of my my role there. Um, and then running and, you

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know, early on getting behind Mayor Adams and and being part of the team that ran his campaign at a high level

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and then he asked me to be chief of staff at a Met game right after the primary out of the blue. Um, and then

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accepting uh, and making changes in my career to do that, which was the one of the greatest privileges of my life uh,

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serving as you know, one of the leaders of New York City, the period that I did. So those I guess those positions and my

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openness with the press um I' I've always believed to be as transparent as possible and understand it's you know

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it's all business bad good articles I guess led to that perception and hopefully I'd like to think some of the

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the you know accomplishments along the way that I helped facilitate uh just

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only added to that reputation and but there's many extremely talented people

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who you never heard of their name in New York who are much more significant than I am. But anyway,

Servant Leadership Perspectives

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well, you've been a part of advising uh some of the most influential leaders throughout New York and in the broader

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area. How how do you see servant leadership show up? We talk about servant leadership a lot on this podcast

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and you're seeing the behind the scenes of real leadership. You know, it's a we really should talk

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about that term a little bit. It's a I I've sort of read significantly over my

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adult life about servant leadership and I think it probably started when I had

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the opportunity to uh participate in officers candidate school in the United States Marine Corps and that is the

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quintessential servant leader. Marine Marines teach leading from the front.

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You know, you you don't ask any of your um you know, subordinates to do what you

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yourself cannot do and not are willing to do and and in fact do and serve or the greatest sacrifice of all is laying

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down your life for what you love and believe in. And that is the true essence of serving um at its hardest core

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example. So I I really learned that term and that we embodied it in the as an

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officer of the United States Marines um when I was attended Quanico, the school in Quantico. Uh and then of course my my

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faith or my life raised as Roman Catholic um there's many examples

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throughout biblical you know literature about serving and leading at the same

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time. And then leading is not about dictating bossing. It's about, you know, listening,

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sacrificing, uh, and really that that listening, uh, with great empathy has sort of really

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one of the main tenants throughout my book, everybody wins. Uh, everyone wins. And so I it's a it's a it's a terrific

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term. I think it should be used more often and it it doesn't necessarily

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suggest one type of career or another. Just just means leading with humility.

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uh and with uh integrity I think. Yeah. Well, thank you for your service

Writing The Book - "Everyone Wins"

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as well. One of the things that I find so interesting is when people think of leadership, uh often what they think

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about is somebody at the top who has extreme power and they lead a lot of

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people and take massive hills and are hard charging people. uh you alluded to

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this book you wrote, everyone wins, and it's quite the opposite in some ways of

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uh one solo leader doing everything on their own. It's more about the whole. Talk about talk about the book, how it

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came about, and really just share with our audience your heart behind the book. You know, it's you just there is a sort

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of debate playing out politically now and culturally throughout the United States and even even now in a New York

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City uh Democratic primary for mayor between socialism, capitalism. I think

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there's a misnomer that successful entrepreneurs or or capitalists

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succeed by hard charging as you say and take no prisoners approach. And that

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only applies to the effort they bring to the table which is constant

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um and uh you know just centered around enormous work. But you do not get that

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type of success without the help of others, without cooperation from others. And you don't get that without listening

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and aligning your interests with others which is what we we talk about in the book. And that's really the uh what

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drove us to write the book the first version. Uh when I was you know

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partnering with the team at Abrams Fenerman when I joined the firm they had about 30 30 40 lawyers. When I left the

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firm uh to go be you know take the job as chief of staff to Mayor Adams we were

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at 140 lawyers approximately. So we we my my my my co-author who I have to just

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talk about a little bit because it's relevant to how we came about writing the book and to answer your question more specifically Russ Prince who is a

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prolific writer and speaker on business on family offices on alignment and I was reading a book called Bargaining

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Brilliance by Lewis Schiff and in this prologue he talks about one of his mentors this recluse named uh who lives

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in a compound in Connecticut named Russ Prince and Russ grew up in this gritty

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neighborhood called Canarcy, Brooklyn, exactly where I grew up, and had a in

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incredible childhood, learning how to negotiate in the schoolyard, the oldfashioned way. But I saw that and I

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immediately emailed Russ. Oh. And he responded within a minute. We met and we became friends and colleagues ever

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since. To this very day, we collaborate extensively. So we talked about our

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interest and we had a few speaking engagement together and decided to write um the first version which was sort of

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after you know kind of after him and I were working on some of the uh speeches I was giving on negotiation at the time.

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Uh and then we we were we were discussing the successes

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of this process and how it's teachable, learnable, but we need now to sort of uh

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fine-tune it a little for version two and show the the reading audience really

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how it worked for us in real life um with with with empirical evidence. So

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that led to the second version and we did it fairly quickly, a couple of months, you know, we we had our our

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manuscript and we would both of us I I took a few chapters, he took a few chapters, we would edit each other's

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work and that's how we did it together. Uh and that was really the the purpose behind it and it was a labor of love,

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you know, something that was very natural to us. It's it's not something that I read about, study about. It's

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just us being our authentic selves. you've had to make a lot of hard decisions uh over the years and and I

Making Hard Decisions

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know you go into this when you speak, but at at the same time, some of those decisions weren't necessarily what was

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best for you personally career-wise or in unique situations. Talk about some of the hardest decisions you've made that

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required you to put the needs of others in front of yourself. Really, really the hardest decisions I I

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I had to make. And remember, I I usually I'm representing someone, an

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organization, an individual, a not for-profit, a municipality. So, first and foremost, my

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responsibility as a lawyer, as a consultant, as a strategist would be to service the need of the client that is

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paying me to do so and with with fidelity and, you know, good faith and fair dealing. So I never think about

10:00
myself in those contexts and and I don't really engender clients that are

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opposite of my core belief system. It's just the way na nature takes its course.

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So usually I'm somewhat aligned with the the position I'm I'm representing. But

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sometimes not. I should say there are exceptions to every rule. And as a as a lawyer, particularly when I was practicing criminal defense work in the

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early 90s, you you represent your client zealously. But those that sort of impact

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me personally were the ones that I had to sacrifice the time away from family to be honest with you. And when I again

Becoming Chief of Staff For N.Y. Mayor

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I used my recent example agreeing to chief of staff to the mayor, I knew I

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could not do this for a long period of time. So I told the mayor the day that I I did it I would work six months in transition to build the team, build a

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culture for the team and then one year as chief of staff and I resigned the day I was hired. So he asked me in June of

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21 and I said okay I'll take it until January 1 23 December 31st 22. So that I

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knew to do properly required a 24 hours 7 days a week commitment for 18 straight

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months. So I moved away into an apartment in Midtown away from my family. Of course I saw them now and

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then but I was really focused on the job. So that was a difficult decision to sacrifice the time away from my family

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on top of my busy career to begin with which you know I had to sacrifice some important family time and I would not

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suggest individuals do that. That was my decision. I don't regret it. I you know

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decision was made at the best at the time but that was to to truthfully answer your question that was probably

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the most difficult. Well, and you had some amazing influence during that stint

Staying Grounded During Times of Crisis

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uh and made some great decisions that impacted a lot of people uh especially around New York behind the scenes. I

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don't know if people realize the craziness that happens. How you even

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alluded to it's 24/7, you know, for that whole year and a half like it's just always on. Talk about how do you stay

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grounded during times of crisis and when just everything is coming at you? uh cuz

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people don't see that you know I I President Trump I I saw a

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quote from him on somewhere in social media it was him speaking and I think he

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said he was talking about you know mental illness and depression and I think he said the the cure for

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you know self-esteem issues depression he believed was work hard it kind of just puts you in a mindset of focus on a

12:35
goal so I stay grounded by keeping myself goal oriented and I there's no

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time to think of anything else when you're goal oriented because you have a mission. We're going to take this hill. What do we have to do to take this hill

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and then we have to execute and then when that hill is taken there's always another hill somewhere else to take metaphorically. So you know that's how I

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do it. I just stay goal oriented and it keeps me extremely focused and you know

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I have a ability to kind of compartmentalize things and I just focus on the task at hand and everything else

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just melts away. You've built some absolutely amazing teams like when you were at city hall

Building Solid Teams

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also now with what you're doing at Oak Tree Solutions like you've built some extremely successful teams and it's not

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dumb luck that you're good at building teams. What's what do you look for in leaders and how do you actually build a

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really solid team? Yeah, it's great great question and as chief of staff, I remember the first day

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in what there's a room called the cow, the committee of the whole upstairs in city hall and we were wearing masks. It

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was still sort of coming out of the pandemic. It was still uncertainty in New York City. People don't realize just

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the short time ago uh how far New York has come where tourism was, you know,

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uncertain, office buildings were empty, Broadway was suffering, crime was seemed to be out of control, there was a

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shutdown and mental illness, you know, space for those who needed the treatment the most. Uh there was, you know, laws

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that were promulgated before we came into office that hurt the uh the city

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specifically. There was a migrant crisis. So what we did to sort of deal

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with those was create a team that for the most part uh did not implode but

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worked without ego. very hard to do and I'm not saying we did it perfectly but day one I held up a book called the

The Culture Code

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culture code and we talked about a place where ideas could exchange but when we

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leave the room the decision is made as as one and also

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another one called ego is the enemy by Ryan Holidayiday I don't remember author of the culture code and you know these

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are difficult things to do put your ego aside particularly in government because

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there's very little upside side when you take you know experimental decisions or

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creative decisions and a lot of downside when you make a mistake. So many of those who work permanently in in

Overcoming Fear That Paralyzes People

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government um are nervous about doing things out that hasn't been done before

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or outside the box or quickly for that fear of that criticism. So there's that

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fear that paralyzes people and it was my job to create a team that there was a

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ability uh to make mistakes, a comfort zone to make mistakes, but always with a northstar of doing something. And that

Significant First Year Accomplishments

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team accomplished great things that first year, including the first ever uh

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privately funded soccer stadium in Queens, which had an infrastructure, you know, component to it, you know,

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environmental cleanup. uh significant growth for infrastructure, plumbing,

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roads, 2500 of units of affordable housing, a development in Kips Bay,

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Midtown, which was a previous administration had it earmarked for a garage, a sanitation garage, which now

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is a life science pavilion and hub uh through on the CUNI space. several

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billion dollars together cooperating with Governor Hokll and her great team and secretary to the governor Karen Kio.

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We put an incredible bid together to win the Democratic National Convention although we lost to Chicago even though

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we had a much superior bid but getting that together in two months quickly. Um uh and I could go on and on and on on

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and on with incredible incredible initiatives that the team did with this

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with this sort of embracing the culture of doing things. I would come I would

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start a meeting with we're doing this. Let's figure out how now let's debate to do it and everyone had an opinion

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whether we should do it. We when I was there, we were focusing on the rebuilding of the BQE

16:51
training folks for dyslexic training and I could go on and on and on and on. But

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you have to create an environment for that that doesn't penalize mistakes,

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doesn't penalize people taking the initiative. You cannot and you that stems from the leaders and really was

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the mayor and myself at the time and thereafter the the team has been terrific as well

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and they they deserve a lot of respect. uh for the accomplishments. You're going to hear soon about some crime numbers

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that are at the historic lows, not over last year, better this year in recorded

17:25
history. So that happens with the culture that I know you speak about a

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lot and your other guests and I know you, you know, believe that and sort of

17:36
fits into the servant leader mindset, but it's that's it's cultural. So important to have the right culture, you

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know, weeding out toxicity and in ego. Hard to do, but you have to do it like

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anything else consciously, measurably, and really um think about it

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every single day. It it is so hard to do. And I I really like the analogy that you used earlier or the

Navigating Risk Taking - Follow Your Heart

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example where in politics you often find uh politicians who if they take a risk

18:07
that they think is a good risk, the downside could be detrimental to their whole career. And so often you just see

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kind of uh the safest decisions possible. you know, as as our leaders

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who are listening to this episode and to the podcast in general, uh, are

18:24
navigating life, a lot of them are in situations where they probably have amazing ideas or amazing things they

18:30
want to do, but those risks they're thinking could be detrimental to their career or it could absolutely tank their

18:36
company or hurt the people around them or whatever it is. How do you even

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navigate like that? What advice do you have for people in those situations?

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You know, easy, very easy. First of all, follow your heart at all times without

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fear. Uh, do not be afraid of criticism. If you're not receiving criticism, you

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are not doing anything of substance. And there's a word in politics that is infectuous. It's called optics. You hear

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it all the time. I remember very often uh lawyers each agency has lawyers and

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as much as they're you know do really God's work there's sometimes could be

19:18
the reason for delay because of not the law optics how someone is being viewed

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and I can't tell you how bad that is for citizens and for people to to get

19:31
results from their elected officials from their bureaucrats that work on their dime as taxpayers

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uh not so they folks could just do you know do nothing and be concerned about how they're being perceived and it's a

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perfect example doesn't matter agree disagree on this example the Elon Musk

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decided to volunteer his time president and and work on something called doitz right and what is the concept there

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rooting out inefficiencies who could argue with that it's inarguable everyone that you must do that in every facet of

20:05
life. And what did he get for that? Maybe he said things that were inflammatory, maybe he didn't. Putting

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that aside for a moment, doesn't really matter. The core mission for anyone reasonable, logical sees rooting out in

20:19
an efficiency from a third party. You must do that. It's we we require it of

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our not for profofits. I know your experience in not for profofit space. You we require them to have, you know,

20:29
outside auditors. Why? So they could root out inefficiencies and corruption. So he did that and what did he get?

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Nothing but critique, nothing but animosity uh for what he believed doing the right

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thing. And I suggest and I submit do not be afraid of that.

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Do not be afraid of that. I I mean I've taken my share of articles from press

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and I take I hold it with a badge of honor. Uh when people I love and respect

21:00
tell me I'm doing something inappropriately, I'll listen. when when strangers do, I I I could I don't know

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that I could care less. It is hard because you people in general get put in these situations where from

Doing What You Know Is Right

21:12
the outside it feels like the world is just against you, right? And it's

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sometimes hard to figure out, okay, what is the the true north star that I'm trying to work towards? Uh you you've

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talked a lot about goals and ambitions and just continuing to push for what you know is right.

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It sounds so easy to say, right? But you've lived through having to do that.

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Uh when when people deal with that struggle of like we we know what we should do, but we just don't have it in

21:42
us to do it. How do you encourage them to kind of get back on the track that they know they should be on and follow their heart?

21:48
You know, it's a a great question and you know, I don't want to sound flippant and I don't want to make it sound easy.

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You're right. Uh, and I, you know, for me, again, growing up in gritty neighborhood Karsi, learning from the

22:00
schoolyard how to survive and going through United States Marine Corps, taking my share of lumps sort of allowed

22:07
me me to have a certain perspective. And what is that perspective? I I'll share it. Uh, I share this with the press once

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upon a time uh, when they were asking me a similar question. You know, I had a grandfather who fought in the Battle of

22:18
the Bulge and in the Ardans forest below zero

22:23
temperatures fighting against Nazi Germany. I had an uncle who was like an older brother to me who had a disease

22:29
called cystic fibrosis, my grandfather's son, and he had a lung taken out at 16 years old. And I don't know that he ever

22:36
had one clear gasp of air ever in his life. I would and every night we'd have

22:43
to pound his back to give him the therapy to pull out the uh the mucus.

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Yet I don't know that I've ever saw him without a smile on his face, without a positive attitude. My grandfather out of

22:54
the Battle of the Bulge, I don't know if I ever heard him raise his voice. So I think to myself, I'm not in in the

How To Keep Perspective When Being Criticized

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subzero weather fighting a war. I am not

23:07
struggling with a life debilitating disease. What the hell do I care about? A little

23:12
bit of criticism or a little bit of difficulty along the way. You know, I feel grateful that I have the life that

23:20
I have in the greatest country in the world in one of the like I said before, New York City where I could have

23:25
anything I want within five minutes. This is a privilege and you must think that way. And that

23:31
would be the advice I would give folks to have some perspective. If you don't have it and if it's hard, volunteer with

23:37
someone who has. go to sp speak to veterans, you know, speak to those that

23:42
suffered catastrophic uh disease or loss in their life and use empathy to have

23:48
perspective. And then when you sort of lay that against what you're really doing, you'll realize it's a grain of

23:55
salt. So that's what I do and that's it works for me. Uh not easy. We have

24:00
emotions, we have egos, we have anger. all need work like anything in that's

24:06
worthwhile in life and at the end of the day just have courage that's all you know it's this two will pass I I love

Personal Examples Of Servant Leadership

24:14
that the empathy helping shape perspective I think is spot on uh one of the things you talk about kind of your

24:22
upbringing and also going into the Marine Corps there were people who modeled servant leadership for you uh

24:28
well before you became a great example of a servant leader right who were some of those people and how did they

24:34
influence you into the person you are today? You know, I I I'll give I'll share two

24:39
examples. I've had I've had the good fortune of, you know, many adult men who

24:46
I I I watched I tried to emulate who spend some time with me, including my

24:52
dad, my grandfather. I mentioned uh I I there were two pivotal points in my life that always jump out at me and everyone

24:59
has their own. I remember my baseball coach in Canari High School, Bobby Napo.

25:05
Uh I was I loved baseball, was fairly decent player, and going to him one day

25:11
saying, "Coach, you know, I'm going to take the civil service exam. I think it was at that time was maybe applied to

25:16
fire department." And I, you know, I thought it was a very honorable, you know, terrific thing to do. And he said

25:22
to me, you know, why would you, you know, you're such a smart guy. You you could do many things. You know, why

25:28
immediately limit yourself to to to one. And I paused for a minute and I was

25:33
like, I never really thought of, you know, my future in that perspective. And

25:39
for whatever the reason at that moment, that triggered something in my mind that the world's a little bit of a larger

25:45
place to think of. And the second um there was a recruiter for the Marine

25:51
Corps named Captain Samuels who when I applied for officer candidate school I

25:56
was disqualified because I listed correctly on my application that I had

26:03
asthma as a child and it was an automatic disqualification. I didn't know. And you

26:09
know he he called me up. He didn't hesitate. He didn't complain. He said,

26:15
"We're going to appeal. We're going to beat this. You and you're going to be a Marine." And just that conviction. And

26:22
sure enough, we did. And I did. And it was that

26:28
conviction that also spoke to me. So, there's many more, but just two in the

26:33
interest of time, just two quick ones I thought I'd share. Those are both great. And now you're in

Encouraging Servant Leadership In Others

26:38
a position where you are those examples for many younger leaders, especially around the city of New York, right?

26:44
There's people, young leaders, trying to step into a space of influence. How do you encourage them to navigate this and

26:51
really become the person they were made to be? I try to do this with my 22-year-old son

26:57
who like me at his age would see someone very successful and right away want to

27:02
either get discouraged because how on earth am I ever going to get that far? um and therefore then you then you you

27:09
for sort of freeze and do almost nothing. So that is a huge mistake. You you must do it in steps. First yearly we

27:17
go back to what we said earlier goal setting. Then you break the year down. I do this every year myself to this very

27:22
day at 56 years old. What do I want to accomplish for the year? Then break it down quarterly, monthly, weekly, daily.

27:28
So I have a road map just for that year. You put a couple of good days together, you have a good week. A couple good

27:34
weeks together, you have a good month. Couple good months together. you had a great year. Put a couple good years together, even if there's some up and

27:40
downs, you have a great career. So, you cannot think, you could project that far ahead, but then you'd have to really

27:46
bring it back to I don't like to go more than one year in advance and think about

27:52
the next step, building blocks. Um, you know, I remember they used to read a

27:57
phrase in the Bible about building the house uh from stone versus straw or or

28:05
versus sticks. And when the winds come, the straw and the sticks blow away, but the the strong foundation remains.

28:12
Similarly when you for your career you must do things in small steps uh and

28:18
stay focused on those small steps and before you know it time goes by very very quickly and you have a body of work

28:24
behind you. So I I my suggestion would be don't project more than a year but do

28:31
what you promise yourself to do and even if you fail here and there get back to it. So that's would be my my advice for

28:38
young people. That is so good. Uh, Frank, I want to finish with 10 rapidfire questions where

Ten Rapid-Fire Questions

28:44
I hit you with questions and you say the first thing that comes to mind. Okay, I'll try.

28:50
Who's the first person you think of when I say servant leadership? Oh, Jesus.

28:56
Five words the most describe you? Uh, authentic.

29:02
Uh, rough uh uh sense of humor. That was more than

29:09
put that as one. Humor. Uh I New York

29:15
and Italian. I love that. Favorite book or movie?

29:21
Favorite book? Uh Godfather. The movie was great, but the book was way better.

29:28
Favorite movie? I'm gonna also say The Godfather. Favorite food? Italian food.

29:34
Favorite thing to do in your free time? Elf. What's a surprising fact about you?

29:41
Surprising fact about me? Oh, I don't know. Um, I collect comic books.

29:49
All right. Favorite place you've been. Oh, favorite place I've been? Probably

29:59
Tuscany. I half wondered if you were going to say New York, but favorite place you wanna that you want to go that

30:05
you haven't been. Germany. What's the best advice you've ever

30:11
gotten? Whatever decision I make will be the correct one. Needs context. If you if I have a few

Whatever Decision You Make Is The Right One

30:18
moments, I'll share. But yeah, go for it. When President Clinton was elected 1992,

30:24
we downsized the military. my class to go to naval justice school and the basic

30:30
school in the Marine Corps to continue my career as a JAG officer shrunk down to almost nothing. I would did not have

30:36
a job and have a place to live. Um, and I was in a little bit of limbo. So, a

30:43
year went by, I started working as a lawyer in several firms around the clock, including a criminal defense firm

30:49
doing arraignments at night. ultimately offered me a partnership and uh I at the

30:56
same time got a call from a major who said, "Lieutenant, we have six seats available, four lawyers. We're going to

31:04
draw straws. If your name is selected, are you ready to deploy next week?" I said, "I'm ready." I'll call you back.

31:10
Calls me back, tells me my name is not selected out of the six. And the next

31:15
time they're going to draw straws will be six months from now. Very I can't. So I could not take a real position

31:21
anywhere. I could not start I I didn't have any money to live on. So I I worked

31:26
really really hard that summer and they offered me a partnership in the criminal defense firm. So I went to a mentor of

31:32
mine and I said, "What should I do?" He said, "Well, whatever you do will be the right choice." I and at first I was

31:38
like, "Well, what kind of advice is that?" But then I realized it's brilliant because whatever I decide, I'm

31:44
going to make the most out of it and not look back. I chose to put in for a uh

31:49
honorable discharge, wrote a letter to the Secretary of Navy except the partnership in the criminal defense

31:54
firm. My life went another direction. I never looked back once. So,

31:59
whatever decision you make, it'll be the right one if you make it so. Wow, that is great advice. Well, Frank,

32:05
I'm so thankful you were willing to be on the podcast. I know our audience will love getting to know you. Uh for those

Who Will Benefit From The Book - "Everyone Wins"

32:11
that are wondering about the book, can you close us out talking about who should buy the book and what they should

32:17
do to do that? And anyone who has a a goals that necessitates dealing with other people,

32:24
which is almost everything. And anyone who does not have a significant network to speak of. And those who maybe

32:30
struggle with conflict and you know always feel victimized

32:36
should read the book and realize there is a methodology and a pathway for achieving your goal by directly aligning

32:43
with others and not sacrificing anything. And negotiation is not a zero

32:49
sum game. That is a misnomer. It's incorrect and we need to disabuse the

32:54
audience of that. And and just so listeners know too, this is not just theory. This is practical pointers,

33:01
practical tips that they can take. So, thank you, Frank. I'm so excited for people to listen to this and I really

Closing

33:07
appreciate you being on. Thank you for having me, Chris. Anytime. Thank you for listening to this episode

33:13
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard, please give it a thumbs up and leave a comment

33:19
below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit the notification bell to never miss an

33:25
update. Be sure to check out the servant leadership podcast.org for more updates and additional bonus content.