00:00:00
Your career path took some major turns.

00:00:02
Yeah, I was recruited by uh our main

00:00:07
technology partner. They asked me to

00:00:10
become the CEO, but in hindsight, I

00:00:13
should have said no.

00:00:20
Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

00:00:22
we welcome James Acriman. From serving

00:00:25
in the United States Coast Guard to

00:00:26
leading publicly traded media and

00:00:28
technology companies at the center of

00:00:30
global attention, James rose fast and

00:00:33
carried enormous responsibility early in

00:00:35
life. After seasons of prominence,

00:00:37
pressure, and burnout, James entered a

00:00:39
period of deep personal and spiritual

00:00:41
rebuilding that reshaped who he is. That

00:00:43
transformation ultimately led him to

00:00:45
becoming CEO of Prison Fellowship, the

00:00:48
organization founded by Chuck Coulson,

00:00:50
guiding it through a period of major

00:00:52
turnaround and growth. Today, James

00:00:54
continues to lead at a national level,

00:00:57
helping shape leaders and organizations.

00:00:59
Join us as James shares hard-earned

00:01:01
lessons on leadership under pressure,

00:01:03
failure, and redemption, faith in the

00:01:05
public square, and why servant

00:01:07
leadership is not soft leadership, but

00:01:09
the most demanding form there is. James,

00:01:12
thank you for being on the servant

00:01:13
leadership podcast.

00:01:15
Thank you for having me, Chris. I'm

00:01:17
really excited to have you because I've

00:01:18
been following you for a while and your

00:01:21
career path has been very interesting.

00:01:23
Everything from media

00:01:25
to large nonprofits to national

00:01:27
movements,

00:01:28
for-profit, nonprofit. You have had a

00:01:31
variety.

00:01:32
Talk a little bit about your career path

00:01:34
and how it even flowed together to get

00:01:37
to where you are.

00:01:38
So, uh, my career path was one that was

00:01:41
kind of very untraditional. Um, I uh I

00:01:45
grew up in a household where my my uh

00:01:48
parents were both in the television

00:01:50
business and my father was a very big

00:01:52
name in the TV industry actually as a

00:01:54
star in Hollywood Boulevard and as a lot

00:01:57
of I think it happens with a lot of

00:01:58
young men. I was terrified of competing

00:02:01
with his career. So, I was due to go to

00:02:03
college and I was enrolled in

00:02:05
university, but I actually made the

00:02:07
decision to sign up and join the United

00:02:10
States Coast Guard and went to boot camp

00:02:12
right out of high school and served in

00:02:14
the Coast Guard for four years.

00:02:16
Wow.

00:02:16
That was my bridge to adulthood. And it

00:02:18
was through that experience that I

00:02:20
largely found myself and realized as a

00:02:23
very different kind of man than my dad

00:02:25
and I never had anything to worry about.

00:02:28
But what is particularly uncommon for me

00:02:30
is I never returned to college

00:02:32
and I went straight into sales and from

00:02:34
that into marketing and from that into

00:02:36
business development and and that into

00:02:39
general leadership. So I became a CEO

00:02:42
when I was only 33 years old and I've

00:02:44
pretty much been one ever since.

00:02:45
Wow. And that is the Coast Guard. I

00:02:49
can't even imagine how good of a gap

00:02:50
that would have been for you to bridge

00:02:52
into adulthood. you jump in to being a

00:02:54
CEO at a young age and you're kind of

00:02:56
tossed right into it and you quickly

00:03:00
rise up to some level of fame, if you

00:03:02
will, uh where people know who you are.

00:03:04
Talk about what it was like being so

00:03:07
young and raising through the rink so

00:03:10
fast.

00:03:11
Yeah, it was it was really quite an

00:03:13
experience. The company that I was

00:03:15
thrown into literally was a company

00:03:17
called British Interactive Broadcasting,

00:03:19
which um produced um all of the

00:03:22
interactive TV services for Sky Digital,

00:03:25
which if you think about kind of Direct

00:03:26
TV, it's a UK version of DirecTV in a

00:03:29
way, but much much bigger actually. And

00:03:31
it was a tremendous time at Sky. It was,

00:03:33
you know, the transition from analog to

00:03:35
digital was was crazy. and I was the

00:03:38
managing director of something called

00:03:39
Sky Ventures, which um managed all of

00:03:42
Skye's partnerships it had with TV

00:03:45
channels, like the UK version of

00:03:47
Nickelodeon and History Channel,

00:03:48
National Geographic and all of that.

00:03:50
And I got caught off vacation one day

00:03:52
and told I was going into this this

00:03:54
venture. This

00:03:55
venture is a very high-profile venture.

00:03:57
The partnership was between British Sky

00:04:00
Broadcasting, Sky TV, British

00:04:02
Telecommunications, the main telecoms

00:04:05
operator in the UK, HSBC, the bank, and

00:04:08
Panasonic, the consumer electronics

00:04:10
company. And they had put 600 million

00:04:13
pounds into this company. And um I got

00:04:16
called off vacation and told that I'm

00:04:18
going into it as a CEO. I would become

00:04:21
the third CEO in a year. They burned

00:04:24
through two other CEOs in less than a

00:04:27
year. And I I have to say because it

00:04:30
would be disingenuous not to say that my

00:04:32
faith has been at the core of my career.

00:04:35
And

00:04:37
I don't believe that if it wasn't for

00:04:39
the fact that I so I I self-identify as

00:04:43
a follower of Jesus.

00:04:45
Um I don't know that I could have done

00:04:46
it. But by God's grace, we got that

00:04:48
company off the ground and Sky bought

00:04:50
the other shareholders and brought

00:04:52
brought it back in house. What we were

00:04:54
doing was so innovative and so

00:04:57
different. The press was following it.

00:04:58
The business press was following it like

00:05:00
crazy. So I remember once I was on the

00:05:03
tube headed to my office and I was a man

00:05:06
was holding up the business section of

00:05:08
the re was reading the business section

00:05:09
of the telegraph and I was staring at a

00:05:11
picture of myself.

00:05:14
Well, pretty funny. So I was in the

00:05:17
Times, the Telegraph, regularly on on on

00:05:20
BBC news, ITV news, and I started to

00:05:23
become recognized and I started getting

00:05:25
invited to like these big conferences.

00:05:27
So I presented with Larry Ellison at

00:05:31
CES.

00:05:32
Wow.

00:05:32
I presented at the Meil Lynch media

00:05:35
European media conference to an audience

00:05:37
of 1500. Um I was invited to number 10

00:05:41
Downing Street three times. my wife and

00:05:43
I met the Queen of England, right? And

00:05:46
so it was really heady stuff, very very

00:05:49
high-profile stuff, but it also went to

00:05:51
my head and and that became

00:05:54
well and that's interesting. We talk a

00:05:55
lot about servant leadership on this

00:05:56
podcast and clearly everyone you're

00:05:59
being successful in that role from an

00:06:02
outward standpoint and within the

00:06:03
company you're having great success and

00:06:06
you're talking about it going to your

00:06:07
head. What leadership lessons were you

00:06:09
learning at the time? And also, did

00:06:10
servant leadership even play in at that

00:06:12
point or was that not something you were

00:06:13
thinking about necessarily?

00:06:15
100% played into it. So, there's two two

00:06:17
things that come immediately to mind

00:06:19
from that time that I um uh learned.

00:06:24
One, I drew back on my experience in the

00:06:27
Coast Guard. So, one of the things I

00:06:28
realized when I was in the Coast Guard

00:06:30
on the search and rescue team is that

00:06:32
when things we get super intense, like

00:06:34
we're putting out a boat fire, right?

00:06:36
We're rescuing people out of the water,

00:06:38
right? um super super intense. I get

00:06:41
really caught, like really calm. It's

00:06:44
weird. And so in this situation where

00:06:47
we're responsible for launching a

00:06:49
company, we have like 120 employees at

00:06:52
this point. Um they are terrified about

00:06:54
whether they're going to lose their

00:06:55
jobs. They don't know who I am. I've

00:06:57
just suddenly been introduced to them as

00:06:58
the new CEO, the third guy in a year,

00:07:01
and they are terrified. And I am just

00:07:04
calm as a cucumber. Right? And the other

00:07:07
thing I learned was communicate and

00:07:09
communicate often. You have to be wise

00:07:12
in terms of communication as a leader.

00:07:14
You can't share everything because then

00:07:16
you really panic people. But uh but as

00:07:20
much as you can share, share it with

00:07:22
people, communicate, let them ask

00:07:24
questions. So we had regular meetings

00:07:26
with all the staff to talk about what

00:07:29
was going on, what deals we were working

00:07:30
on, how was the technology coming along,

00:07:33
and keeping everybody informed, which

00:07:35
helped calm people down and keep them

00:07:36
focused on what they needed to do. And

00:07:38
that was part of servant leadership is

00:07:41
being calm at a really intense time

00:07:44
helps people get calm themselves because

00:07:46
they're looking at you and if you're

00:07:48
okay, why am I not okay? Right.

00:07:51
Right. The other thing is the

00:07:52
transparency, the humility of just

00:07:54
opening up and communicating this is

00:07:56
where we are. This is where we need to

00:07:58
make progress and you know here's how

00:08:00
things are going.

00:08:01
Wow. So at some point uh this is going

00:08:05
really well and you transition out of

00:08:08
that

00:08:09
actually to a vendor right of of yours

00:08:12
at some point. So you move into that

00:08:14
world. You're still in the for-profit

00:08:15
world and things are going really really

00:08:17
well. But as you're thinking through

00:08:19
what's next, your career path took some

00:08:22
major turns that you probably never

00:08:24
could have guessed or imagined or even

00:08:27
dreamed of. Uh talk about how your

00:08:30
career changed from there. Yeah, the um

00:08:34
I

00:08:36
was recruited by uh our main technology

00:08:41
partner, a company called Open TV, which

00:08:43
had recently gone public at the time,

00:08:46
and they'd raised like $200 million.

00:08:48
I was originally brought in to be the

00:08:52
president, chief operating officer, but

00:08:54
then within six months, they asked me to

00:08:57
become the CEO.

00:09:00
It actually in hindsight,

00:09:04
hindsight's 2020, but in hindsight

00:09:07
I should have said no.

00:09:09
And the reason I should have said no is

00:09:12
or at least until

00:09:15
certain things got sorted out because

00:09:17
what they did is they made the CEO the

00:09:21
chairman of the board, the executive

00:09:22
chairman of the board

00:09:24
and then made me his CEO. So they the

00:09:27
board decided that he wasn't the right

00:09:30
person to be the CEO, but he was still

00:09:32
the right person to be the the chairman

00:09:33
of the board. And so he had as his

00:09:37
chairman a highly seasoned executive

00:09:40
who'd seen everything. And as a young

00:09:43
guy, because remember I'm still only

00:09:45
like 35 at this point, right?

00:09:48
I'm still a young guy. I'm leading a

00:09:50
public company

00:09:51
and I need coaching. And I didn't have

00:09:54
that coaching. And so um so it became

00:09:58
very political between me and the

00:10:00
chairman of my my board.

00:10:02
I didn't have a mentor in my life on any

00:10:04
front. I didn't have a business mentor

00:10:06
and I didn't have a personal mentor.

00:10:08
Um and then I started to make some

00:10:11
personal decisions that um uh took me

00:10:14
down a very bad path.

00:10:17
And so uh you know I put my marriage at

00:10:19
risk. I was not a very engaged father

00:10:22
during this season. Um and and and I

00:10:27
started when the bloom was coming off

00:10:29
the internet rose in early 20ou in the

00:10:31
2000s. 911 happened the year after that.

00:10:35
Um we ended up being an acquirer. So we

00:10:38
bought two public companies and two

00:10:40
private companies and integrated all

00:10:42
them in together. Uh but by the end of

00:10:45
my first contract, I was completely

00:10:48
spent, completely burned out,

00:10:50
needed to make a change in my life. And

00:10:52
it turns out that my new chairman that

00:10:54
was and yet another new chairman that

00:10:56
was coming on board um I've served under

00:10:59
five during during a four-year contract

00:11:03
um really wanted to be the CEO and I'm

00:11:05
like have it please. So uh I left there

00:11:08
I advised him for a year and that year

00:11:11
was among the most productive seasons of

00:11:14
my life. H what did you learn about

00:11:16
leadership in that year that maybe you

00:11:18
hadn't learned with all of the amazing

00:11:21
public experience you had had?

00:11:23
I once heard uh a radio interview with

00:11:26
Norman Mailor um who said his four years

00:11:30
in the army during World War II were the

00:11:32
worst four years of his life yet the

00:11:34
most valuable

00:11:36
because out of it he wrote wrote The

00:11:37
Naked and the Dead which made him a

00:11:40
literary lion. I would say my tenure at

00:11:43
Open TV as a CEO of Open TV were the

00:11:46
worst four years of my life yet the most

00:11:48
valuable because they made me a

00:11:50
three-dimensional man again.

00:11:52
Wow.

00:11:52
And um during that year it's like God

00:11:55
breathed life into me. You know in the

00:11:57
in there's a in the Old Testament

00:11:59
there's a book called Ezekiel and in the

00:12:02
latter part of Ezekiel

00:12:04
there's this section that talks about

00:12:06
Ezekiel's prophesying about the valley

00:12:08
of dry bones. And it's literally a

00:12:10
valley of just bones. And it is that's

00:12:13
where I was

00:12:14
at that time. I was just bones. And

00:12:17
during that year, just as the prophecy

00:12:20
shows, God puts ligaments and forms the

00:12:23
bones and creates bodies again around

00:12:25
the bones and everything. And that's

00:12:27
what happened to me is that I became a

00:12:30
three-dimensional man again. So, I

00:12:32
became very intentional about my

00:12:35
marriage and loving my wife well and

00:12:37
taking lots of long walks together and

00:12:40
talking things through, driving the kids

00:12:42
to and from school, planning dinners,

00:12:44
actually took cooking classes. Um, I

00:12:47
went through something called the

00:12:48
Centurions program, which is now called

00:12:50
the Coulson Fellows Program, which was

00:12:52
Chuck Coulson's deep dive on biblical

00:12:54
worldview. Strongly recommend it. It's a

00:12:57
lot of work. We read 20 books in one

00:12:59
year.

00:13:00
Wow. Um, I learned to sail in San

00:13:02
Francisco Bay and became US sailing

00:13:04
qualified to skipper a 34 foot vessel.

00:13:06
Uh, I mean, all of those things happened

00:13:08
in that year. And, uh, but it really

00:13:11
informed me about what good leadership

00:13:14
needs to look like. And one of the most

00:13:16
important things I learned is that the

00:13:18
whole person and respecting the people

00:13:20
that you work with, work for and work

00:13:23
with and who work for you is an

00:13:25
extremely important thing to do. They

00:13:27
all matter.

00:13:29
It's interesting because it was almost

00:13:30
like a God-given gift that you had that

00:13:32
year after Open TV where you were uh

00:13:35
still advising, but you were kind of

00:13:37
relooking at your life in some amazing

00:13:39
ways to grow as a person.

00:13:41
As people are listening to this and

00:13:43
they're in a really hard work season or

00:13:45
just a really hard season of life,

00:13:47
they're right in the thick of it, maybe

00:13:48
where you were at Open TV, and they're

00:13:51
not yet at a point where they have that

00:13:52
year to really ramp up and figure

00:13:55
themselves out. What do you encourage

00:13:57
them to do or what are even steps

00:13:59
somebody could take when they're in the

00:14:01
valley, if you will?

00:14:02
Yeah, there's a couple of things I'd

00:14:04
recommend people consider. And I

00:14:06
recommend this for anybody, whether

00:14:08
you're in the valley or not.

00:14:10
Make a list of the things that you most

00:14:12
love and are your highest priorities in

00:14:15
life. And then make a list next to it of

00:14:17
which ones are the actual priorities in

00:14:20
your life

00:14:20
and see how imbalanced that is. like if

00:14:24
your wife and your children serving the

00:14:26
Lord, your church community, you know,

00:14:29
other things are, you know, horseback

00:14:31
ride, you know, whatever it is are the

00:14:33
things that are the things you most want

00:14:35
to be doing, but the things that you're

00:14:37
actually spending your time on are not

00:14:39
those things, right? Then there's an

00:14:42
imbalance there that needs to ultimately

00:14:44
get addressed. Now, there are seasons,

00:14:46
right? I've been involved in company

00:14:49
startups

00:14:50
and there are just times when the hours

00:14:52
are needed to get that thing done but

00:14:55
not at the expense of the important

00:14:58
things in your life and um you know

00:15:01
losing your relationship with the the

00:15:04
Lord, losing your your your your

00:15:07
relationship to your community church

00:15:09
and otherwise losing your relationship

00:15:11
to your wife, losing your relationship

00:15:13
to your children are never never ever a

00:15:17
good thing.

00:15:17
Yeah, that reminds me so clearly.

00:15:20
There's a guy we had on the podcast

00:15:21
named David Ratcliffe who people know

00:15:23
throughout the world, but one of the

00:15:24
things that he has shared with me over

00:15:26
the years is the reminder of don't

00:15:30
sacrifice family on the altar of

00:15:32
business, right?

00:15:33
You know, and and it rings so true as

00:15:35
you're talking where it's like, man, you

00:15:37
get so busy building the thing or

00:15:39
thinking what you're doing is the most

00:15:40
important thing and it's like, well, the

00:15:42
most important things are being

00:15:43
sacrificed. So, I love that advice.

00:15:45
Yeah. And what what value is it to

00:15:47
become so rich but have no relation be

00:15:49
completely estranged from your family?

00:15:51
Yeah.

00:15:51
I mean what what what what's that worth?

00:15:53
Yeah.

00:15:54
So

00:15:55
wow. Well in in this year you talked a

00:15:58
little bit about going through the

00:16:00
Coulson like reading and leadership. I

00:16:03
forget what it was called but fellows

00:16:04
program.

00:16:05
It was called the Centurions program at

00:16:06
the time. Now it's called the Coulson

00:16:07
Fellows program.

00:16:08
Okay. So the Coulson Fellows program and

00:16:11
you're starting to read all these books

00:16:12
and you had no idea maybe the next steps

00:16:15
of where that and some other things

00:16:16
might converge and take you. Talk about

00:16:20
the next step after that year how you

00:16:22
ended up at Prison Fellowship.

00:16:24
Uh so first of all it was a dozen years

00:16:28
between the time that I first visited a

00:16:31
prison with Prison Fellowship

00:16:32
and the time I became their CEO. Right?

00:16:35
12 years. So, so and I I will share

00:16:38
something with you that I don't often

00:16:42
share, but I'll I'll share it here

00:16:43
because I think it's in interesting and

00:16:46
relevant.

00:16:48
During the Centurions program or let's

00:16:51
call what it's called now. During the

00:16:53
Coulson Fellows program,

00:16:55
Chuck Coulson was speaking. We is one of

00:16:56
the residency weekends. He was speaking

00:16:59
um and giving a talk on biblical

00:17:02
worldview. And the Holy Spirit literally

00:17:05
said to me, "One day you will lead

00:17:06
Prison Fellowship."

00:17:08
Wow.

00:17:09
That would happen 10 years later.

00:17:11
Wow.

00:17:11
And he didn't even tell my wife because

00:17:13
I knew it'd freak her out, right? But it

00:17:16
was and I wasn't even sure. I was like

00:17:18
afraid. Is this like my ego speaking or

00:17:19
whatever? But in hindsight, I realized

00:17:21
actually the Holy Spirit giving me an

00:17:23
insight. One day you will lead prison

00:17:24
fellowship. M

00:17:26
so I visited a prison before during that

00:17:30
same year that I applied to go into the

00:17:32
centurions program and all that. Um I uh

00:17:36
was invited by a prison fellowship

00:17:38
staffer who I met on a father-son

00:17:39
retreat to visit a prison fellowship

00:17:42
program what's now today called the

00:17:44
prison fellowship academy. And um and I

00:17:48
it was just a transformative experience

00:17:50
for me. I felt at home in that prison

00:17:52
yard.

00:17:52
And I think because I had made some

00:17:54
really stupid mistakes in my life, I had

00:17:57
empathy with the men. And while my

00:17:59
mistakes didn't lead to me going to

00:18:01
prison, they they were still mis er

00:18:05
errors of character, errors of judgment,

00:18:07
of character.

00:18:08
And so I met men who had made big

00:18:11
mistakes in their lives and I just felt

00:18:14
empathetic with them. I felt like I

00:18:16
belonged there and I didn't really want

00:18:18
to leave to be honest. M

00:18:19
and so I got involved in prison ministry

00:18:22
um and the two things ended up and my

00:18:27
media background ended up resulting in

00:18:29
me getting very close with Chuck

00:18:30
Coulson. So I consider Chuck Coulson a

00:18:33
mentor in my life. We had a lot of time

00:18:35
together. We didn't always agree on

00:18:36
everything either, by the way. Um uh but

00:18:39
we uh spent a lot of time together and

00:18:42
his thinking he was in tremendous mind.

00:18:45
His thinking really um helped form and

00:18:49
forge my thinking. I said to Chuck,

00:18:51
you've ruined my reading of the New York

00:18:53
Times because I can now read an article

00:18:55
and know what the world view is of the

00:18:57
reporter or the writer of the article.

00:18:59
Right. I think about that which before I

00:19:02
just read the article. But yeah, it was

00:19:04
both were tremendous experience.

00:19:06
Wow. So as as you're stepping into these

00:19:09
prisons, even before you become CEO,

00:19:11
there's something happening in your

00:19:13
heart. Yeah. And I'm curious what you

00:19:16
saw on the leadership side as you're

00:19:19
walking through these prisons because I

00:19:20
would think it's I would think it's a

00:19:22
lot of hopelessness, a lot of lost

00:19:25
people, but hearing some of your

00:19:27
background as well outside of this

00:19:29
podcast. Uh there's great inspiration

00:19:32
and amazing things happening within

00:19:34
prisons.

00:19:35
I I had some unbelievable experiences. I

00:19:39
remember I started teaching a life

00:19:41
skills class as part of a program.

00:19:45
By this point, we'd moved to Nashville,

00:19:46
Tennessee in Riverbed Maximum Security,

00:19:49
which is the uh where Tennesseeey's

00:19:51
death row is housed.

00:19:53
And the other part of the prison is a

00:19:55
maximum security prison. And only one

00:19:57
unit of the six units is open.

00:20:00
So, three are like total supermax

00:20:04
lockown. You're in yourself for 23 hours

00:20:06
a day. Two of them are called close

00:20:08
units, which means you stay in the unit.

00:20:10
May have a small yard outside the unit,

00:20:12
but you otherwise stay in the unit. And

00:20:14
only unit six do people leave and go to

00:20:18
a chow hall and do jobs on the prison

00:20:20
grounds. And there was guys in that unit

00:20:22
who could go through this program,

00:20:24
right, that I was helping to teach. And

00:20:27
I remember once there was a guy, I won't

00:20:29
name names, but there was a guy, an

00:20:31
African-American guy who was the first

00:20:34
day of the first class with him in it.

00:20:38
And he was so angry and he I won't say

00:20:42
exactly what he said because I wouldn't

00:20:44
be appropriate, but I'll let your

00:20:48
you know, mind imagine.

00:20:50
Yeah. But he was basically like, "What

00:20:53
can you white, you know what, do for

00:20:56
us?"

00:20:58
And he was very, very hostile about it.

00:21:00
Very, very, very angry. Um, and so, um,

00:21:05
one of the first things I did in the

00:21:06
class was I had everyone give a little

00:21:08
bit of background on their story and

00:21:10
they could fill it in any way they want.

00:21:12
Just tell us about yourself, right? So,

00:21:14
he shared that he had been a copy editor

00:21:17
for the Detroit Free Press.

00:21:19
Wow. but he was also a drug dealer and

00:21:23
some guy owed them money and they went

00:21:25
on a chase to chase him down, crossed

00:21:28
multiple states and they finally caught

00:21:31
up to him in Tennessee and they killed

00:21:33
him.

00:21:35
Now, he didn't pull the trigger. It

00:21:37
wasn't his gun. I believe what he says

00:21:40
that he didn't think anybody was

00:21:43
intending to kill anyone. They just

00:21:44
wanted their money. But he ended going

00:21:47
down a long-term sentence as an

00:21:49
accessory to murder. So he is angry

00:21:53
beyond belief.

00:21:55
And the Lord,

00:22:00
this is the thing about that happened

00:22:02
during that year that you me you

00:22:04
mentioned after Open TV.

00:22:06
The Lord helped me see the value in him.

00:22:09
Look beyond the anger and look beyond

00:22:11
the the verbal attacks and just see the

00:22:14
value in him. And so I asked him, you

00:22:16
know, when we got into writing resumes

00:22:18
and and cover letters, I said, 'You were

00:22:21
a copy editor at the Detroit Free Press,

00:22:23
right? Yes. I said, would you be willing

00:22:26
to review the resumes and cover letters

00:22:30
of every guy in this class? And I'm I I

00:22:33
said, "Not just the black guys, the

00:22:35
white guys, the Hispanic guys,

00:22:36
everybody, right? Will you be willing to

00:22:38
do that?" Yes. M I said, "Could we find

00:22:41
a space for him to meet with the guys

00:22:45
and we arranged basically that he could

00:22:47
have the chapel every Thursday at 4:00

00:22:49
for the next 3 weeks and the guys could

00:22:51
come in with their resumes and cover

00:22:53
letters and have him re review them and

00:22:55
have him, you know, edit them for for

00:22:57
them. These were some of the best

00:23:00
résumés I've ever read." Right? But the

00:23:02
thing that was most important is that

00:23:04
this guy was given purpose. He was given

00:23:07
shown dignity. He was shown that he had

00:23:09
value to bring and it completely changed

00:23:12
his attitude. Completely transformed his

00:23:14
attitude. That's the approach I've tried

00:23:17
to take in leadership period

00:23:19
is to see the value in people. Look,

00:23:21
sometimes you have a person who's not in

00:23:24
the right seat. They're just not in the

00:23:25
right job. And you're actually doing

00:23:26
them a disfavor by holding on to them.

00:23:29
It would be better to let them go and

00:23:32
find the place where they need to be,

00:23:33
where they can fit in well. But it's

00:23:36
important to see everybody as a person

00:23:38
and to see them as having value and

00:23:41
having dignity and and treating them

00:23:43
that way.

00:23:44
Wow.

00:23:45
Yeah. There's something about finding

00:23:46
purpose uh that might even help somebody

00:23:50
develop and lean into their servant

00:23:52
leadership skill set,

00:23:53
right?

00:23:54
It's unbelievable how that works. I'm

00:23:56
curious for those that um don't know

00:23:59
about what Prison Fellowship did or does

00:24:02
or haven't even heard of Chuck Coulson

00:24:03
maybe like what was it like cuz it seems

00:24:07
fairly abnormal for somebody to end up

00:24:10
in a prison helping and walking

00:24:12
alongside prisoners,

00:24:14
right?

00:24:14
Yeah. So Chuck Olsson was uh in Nixon's

00:24:18
President Nixon's uh White House. He was

00:24:21
his special counsel and he got caught up

00:24:24
in Watergate and he ended up going to

00:24:26
prison for it. And before he went to

00:24:28
prison, he gave his life to Jesus. And

00:24:30
while he was in prison, he realized that

00:24:34
um uh men and men and women by you know

00:24:37
proxy are amongst the most marginalized

00:24:41
in society. So he committed himself to

00:24:43
starting a um an organization to serve

00:24:47
the needs of incarcerated men and women,

00:24:49
returning citizens and their families.

00:24:51
And he launched Prison Fellowship.

00:24:53
Chuck had two great passions, serving

00:24:56
the incarcerated and biblical worldview.

00:24:58
So he was a great mind. He was a marine

00:25:01
captain. He was a lawyer. Um and he had

00:25:04
just a great mind. He wrote some

00:25:07
tremendous books on on biblical

00:25:10
worldview. but his other great passion

00:25:12
was serving the incarcerated. And so,

00:25:14
um, so I ended up sharing both of those

00:25:17
passions with him. Uh, but particularly

00:25:19
the prison ministry. Uh, you can't keep

00:25:22
me out of prison. I've been in prison

00:25:23
hundreds of times now. And I love it. I

00:25:26
love going to prison. And I've met some

00:25:29
of the most interesting people. And I've

00:25:30
had the opportunity to pray with people

00:25:32
who just, you know, whose hearts are

00:25:35
just broken, who are truly repentant,

00:25:38
can't believe they did what they did,

00:25:40
may never get out of this place, um but

00:25:44
um want to make things right in their

00:25:46
life as best as they can. Um and it's

00:25:49
just been that that just sense of

00:25:51
empathy and

00:25:54
journeying together in life um has been

00:25:58
just really really good for me. And you

00:26:00
know, I I would go on, you know, long

00:26:02
before, you know, I went ultimately let

00:26:05
was the turnaround CEO of a TV channel

00:26:08
called Documentary Channel, a cable and

00:26:09
satellite TV channel. Uh a vendor of

00:26:12
that company called Broadway Systems. I

00:26:14
would package them up so they could be

00:26:16
sold. You know, I I went back into the

00:26:19
commercial world while I was also going

00:26:22
into prison and volunteering. Um, and so

00:26:26
the balance for me of being a business

00:26:28
guy, um, but also having time in my life

00:26:33
where I was investing in the lives of

00:26:35
others is again one of the things that

00:26:38
really helped enrich me as a person,

00:26:40
make me a more complete person.

00:26:42
Wow. Well, when I think through, and you

00:26:45
mentioned this a little bit ago, but

00:26:46
getting the right people in the right

00:26:47
seats on the bus, I think of Jim

00:26:49
Collins, right, and and his good to

00:26:51
great. Um, but one of the things that

00:26:53
Jim Collins talks about when he talks

00:26:55
about the level five leader uh, and he

00:26:57
talks about this, I don't remember if

00:26:59
it's in the books or just uh, in other

00:27:02
conversations I've heard with Jim, but

00:27:05
one of the things he talks about is you

00:27:07
don't know if you're a level five leader

00:27:09
until after you leave the organization

00:27:11
and see is it better without you there

00:27:13
because you've set up the leaders well

00:27:15
behind you, right? And or something to

00:27:17
that effect. you've been through so many

00:27:19
positions of leading various companies

00:27:22
and even prison fellowship at the end

00:27:24
leading prison fellowship uh and then

00:27:27
handing it off to the next set of

00:27:28
leaders.

00:27:29
What was something that you kept in mind

00:27:31
uh as you're trying to hand an

00:27:33
organization off into good hands so the

00:27:35
organization set up well, the person set

00:27:37
up well,

00:27:38
the people you're serving are set up

00:27:39
well. How do you think about that?

00:27:41
Yeah, so I think there's two ways to

00:27:43
look at it and so let's unpack unpack

00:27:45
the two ways. So in a situation where

00:27:48
you are marching to an exit, in other

00:27:50
words, in the case of documentary

00:27:52
channel, we sold it to participant

00:27:53
media.

00:27:54
In the case of Broadway systems, we sold

00:27:56
it to a global competitor. Um, uh, you

00:28:00
do everything you can when you're

00:28:02
handing off the reigns of the

00:28:03
organization to the buyer to advise them

00:28:06
as best you can on how you might take

00:28:09
things forward.

00:28:10
They may or may not listen to you,

00:28:12
right? And that is out of your control.

00:28:14
In my case, I'm a a fix it CEO as my

00:28:18
friend calls calls me, right? I go in

00:28:20
and I fix things. So, I've been a CEO

00:28:23
six times now and the longest tenure was

00:28:25
Prison Fellowship at 7 and a half years,

00:28:27
right? Um but the shortest was 24

00:28:31
months, right? And that was Broadway

00:28:32
Systems. You're there to fix things. So,

00:28:34
when I went into Prison Fellowship and

00:28:36
and by the way, you don't realize you're

00:28:37
a fix it CEO until you've done it two or

00:28:40
three times. It's the Jim Collins thing.

00:28:42
like you look back and you're like, "Oh,

00:28:44
there's a pattern here." Right? Um so in

00:28:48
the case of Prison Fellowship, from day

00:28:50
one, I was praying, "Lord, am I in here

00:28:52
for a short period?" Because it was pure

00:28:54
turnaround. Prison Fellowship was a

00:28:56
mess.

00:28:56
Chuck Coulson had passed away four years

00:28:58
before, and it was in a bad way. Um, and

00:29:02
am I here just to lead it through a

00:29:05
turnaround uh and then hand off to

00:29:08
somebody else or am I here until like

00:29:11
I'm 70 years old, right? And um one day

00:29:16
uh I'm in a prison in Texas and a man

00:29:20
who's in I I mentioned the signature

00:29:22
program Prison Fellowship has called the

00:29:24
Prison Fellowship Academy. A man who's

00:29:27
in the academy, in other words, an

00:29:29
incarcerated man who's participating in

00:29:31
the academy in this prison, walks up to

00:29:34
me, the CEO, a prison fellowship. He's

00:29:37
wearing a jumpsuit. I'm wearing a suit,

00:29:40
right? And he says, "I have a word from

00:29:43
the Lord for you. May I share it?" Now,

00:29:47
this I've had prophets come up to me and

00:29:51
say, "Thus sayaith the Lord." You know,

00:29:53
do that kind of thing to me. He wasn't

00:29:55
doing that. He's like, "I've got a word

00:29:56
for you. I'd like to share it with you.

00:29:58
May I do so?"

00:30:00
And if I said, "I prefer you not, but

00:30:03
thank you very much." He'd have gone

00:30:04
away and just prayed for me.

00:30:05
I said, but I felt in my heart like,

00:30:07
"This is okay." I said, "Go ahead." And

00:30:09
so what he said referring to Chronicles

00:30:11
is he basically referred to the time

00:30:13
when when God used Nathan to say to to

00:30:18
David, you are not to build the temple.

00:30:21
That he is raising somebody else to

00:30:23
build the temple. you'll drop the plans,

00:30:25
you're going to raise a lot of money,

00:30:26
you're going to get the materials, all

00:30:27
those things, but you're not to build

00:30:29
it. Um, he said God is raising somebody

00:30:32
else after you to lead Prison

00:30:34
Fellowship. And God is using you as he

00:30:36
is now to raise a lot of money and build

00:30:39
the organization and get it in the

00:30:40
right, you know, right direction and get

00:30:42
on the right footing and all of those

00:30:43
things, but he's raising somebody else

00:30:45
to take over from me.

00:30:46
Wow. So I went home, that was like in

00:30:48
October. I went home and that Christmas

00:30:50
season, Christmas break, um really

00:30:54
prayed deeply into that and read like as

00:30:57
much about David as I could read and

00:30:59
came to the conclusion that this was

00:31:00
from the Lord. And so and I knew who he

00:31:03
was talking about. He was talking about

00:31:05
a member of my staff named Heather Rice

00:31:06
Minus. So I began very intentionally

00:31:09
preparing Heather to take on more

00:31:12
responsibilities and ultimately after

00:31:15
about a year and a half went to the

00:31:16
board of directors and said I believe

00:31:19
Heather is my natural successor and it's

00:31:22
never the CEO's job to appoint his or

00:31:25
her successor. That's the domain of

00:31:28
dominion of the board. But I was

00:31:30
recommending her to the to the board and

00:31:33
they interviewed her and met with her

00:31:35
for about 14 or 15 months before they

00:31:37
finally came to the conclusion, you're

00:31:39
right, she's the one. And so then we

00:31:41
began a transition out. It's one of the

00:31:43
most my tenure at Prison Fellowship was

00:31:47
probably my most satisfying leadership

00:31:49
experience in my career,

00:31:51
but it was difficult. The organization

00:31:54
was going in nose dive.

00:31:55
The culture was toxic. But God just it's

00:31:59
just

00:32:01
everything about it was just so

00:32:03
beautiful to see how God worked with and

00:32:06
through us during that season. And then

00:32:08
I got to lead it through co where God

00:32:09
did more miracles. It was amazing.

00:32:13
And then after that a little bit then

00:32:15
you started leading a national men's

00:32:17
movement.

00:32:18
Yes.

00:32:19
And I mean all kinds of leadership

00:32:21
lessons there I'm sure. But what led you

00:32:24
to be even thinking about jumping into

00:32:26
leading a national men's movement?

00:32:29
Well, I wasn't thinking about leading a

00:32:30
national men's movement. I got asked by

00:32:33
a chairman of the board of New Canan

00:32:36
Society to um to advise the board on

00:32:40
developing a roadmap for the future of

00:32:43
NCS. um NCS had parted company with its

00:32:46
founder uh like eight years before and

00:32:51
um and it just never really found it.

00:32:53
The national office never really found

00:32:55
its footing again. Um and so they asked

00:32:57
me to come in and help help them do it.

00:33:00
And the thing that was clear to me

00:33:02
became very clear to me very quickly is

00:33:04
that the main thing that the national

00:33:06
office needs to do is to provide value

00:33:09
to the chapters. It's it really is the

00:33:11
ultimate ser servant leadership role

00:33:14
because the head organization is

00:33:17
actually needs to put itself into a

00:33:18
service position to the chapters and

00:33:20
help the chapters to grow and help new

00:33:22
chapters to launch.

00:33:24
And so that's what we're doing. We're

00:33:25
doing all kinds of innovative new

00:33:27
things.

00:33:27
Um that uh is really exciting and I I

00:33:31
love public speaking and I get invited

00:33:33
to come speak at chapters all the time.

00:33:35
So you know it's it feeds that part of

00:33:37
me as well. So

00:33:38
Wow. Well, James, I'm thankful that you

00:33:41
were willing to share your story on our

00:33:42
podcast and and give some great

00:33:44
takeaways for people to think about.

00:33:46
Before we wrap up, I want to ask you 10

00:33:48
rapid fire questions where you just say

00:33:51
the first thing that comes to mind, and

00:33:52
there's no wrong answer.

00:33:54
Who's the first person you think of when

00:33:56
I say servant leadership?

00:33:59
Jesus.

00:33:59
All right. Five words that most describe

00:34:02
you.

00:34:02
Leader.

00:34:05
Tough.

00:34:08
compassionate,

00:34:13
listener,

00:34:16
discerning.

00:34:17
Those are good. Favorite author or book?

00:34:19
Oh, wow. Um, my new favorite book I'm

00:34:21
reading right now is called

00:34:23
Resurrection. It was written by Leo

00:34:25
Toltoy.

00:34:26
First published in 1899.

00:34:29
Its book is marvelous.

00:34:31
Marvelous.

00:34:32
People have to check that out. Uh,

00:34:34
favorite thing to do in your free time?

00:34:36
Walk. I love to walk. I love to walk

00:34:39
alone and think things through. I love

00:34:41
walking with my wife. I like walking

00:34:43
uphills. I like walking on flat

00:34:45
surfaces. I love to walk.

00:34:47
Wow. Uh favorite food?

00:34:49
Italian.

00:34:50
All right. What's a surprising fact

00:34:51
about you?

00:34:52
Uh I used to be a registered marksman

00:34:56
with two weapons.

00:34:57
Oh, that's cool. Um favorite place

00:35:00
you've been?

00:35:01
Oh, Pia, Italy. Um it's the heel of

00:35:04
Leoot. It's a wonderful place. Is there

00:35:06
anywhere you want to go that you've

00:35:08
never been to?

00:35:09
Oh, yeah. There's scores of places.

00:35:11
Where's the top place?

00:35:12
Probably Greece.

00:35:14
All right. Best advice you've ever

00:35:16
received?

00:35:18
Uh, oh my gosh, I've received so much

00:35:22
good advice. Um, you have two ears and

00:35:24
one mouth for a reason.

00:35:26
Learn to listen first, speak second.

00:35:30
That's good. All right. And finally, uh,

00:35:32
obviously we're on a podcast about

00:35:34
servant leadership. Why do you think

00:35:36
servant leadership is so important for

00:35:38
people who are listening?

00:35:40
Uh because you get the best out of

00:35:41
people when you take a servant

00:35:43
leadership approach and you build a

00:35:44
culture where people trust each other

00:35:46
and want to work together.

00:35:47
Um if you look at serving people and

00:35:50
helping them bring their best to to play

00:35:54
um and encouraging teams to work

00:35:56
together, even insisting on it, um you

00:35:59
end up seeing some beautiful things come

00:36:01
through it u as a result.

00:36:04
Wow. Well, James, thank you for being

00:36:07
willing to be on here and sharing your

00:36:08
story. I'm so excited for people to

00:36:10
follow what you're doing uh and just

00:36:12
learn more about you.

00:36:13
Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate

00:36:15
it. This makes so much fun.

00:36:16
Thank you for listening to this episode

00:36:18
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

00:36:21
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

00:36:22
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00:36:24
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00:36:28
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00:36:30
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00:36:33
or for more updates and additional bonus

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content.