Jeff Korzenik's Intro

0:06
Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast, we welcome Jeff Corzanik. Jeff is the chief economist for Fifth Third Bank and

0:13
a leading voice on one of the most overlooked issues in our economy. His focus is on helping bring people with

0:18
criminal records back into the workforce. In his book, Untapped Talent, Jeff makes a compelling case for why

0:24
second chance hiring isn't just the right thing to do. It's one of the smartest business strategies leaders can

0:30
embrace. Join us as Jeff shares the data, stories, and practical steps that can help leaders better understand the

0:36
economy and tap into this hidden talent pool while transforming both lives and organizations.

Welcome Jeff Korzenik

0:43
Jeff, thank you so much for being on the servant leadership podcast. Delighted to be here. Thanks, Chris.

0:49
I am so excited uh because this is going to be such a unique conversation. Uh, I

"Second Chance Hiring" Background

0:55
bumped into your content and heard you talk about something called second chance hiring and I didn't know what it

1:04
meant, but I had a lot of quick thoughts that came to mind and when you got into second chance hiring, my mind was blown.

1:12
Uh, I would love for you to share about this concept of second chance hiring

1:17
with our audience and kind of how you stumbled into this world. Sure. Well, let's start with the definition. Second chance hiring is the

1:24
intentional and I have to underscore intentional seeking out of people with criminal records as a talent pool for

1:30
employment. And uh I stumbled into it by my day job if you will is I'm chief

1:36
economist for Fifth Third Commercial Bank. So one of the larger commercial banks in the country and uh about 10 12

1:43
years ago there was a big question among economists uh namely why were we missing so many people from the workforce and

1:49
why was our what's called labor force participation rate so low and notably

1:55
missing were young men and uh economists by and large just kind of moved on put a

2:01
new number in their models but but it it nodded at me and I started to ask questions particularly of the CEOs of

2:09
companies we bank as I meet with them around the country and I started to see a pattern emerging and uh by by 2014 I I

2:17
I think I had figured it out and we were missing people in the workforce uh because of three social ills which were

2:24
present this century in ways we had never seen before at least not altogether. Number one, long-term

2:29
unemployment. Number two, the opioid epidemic. and number three the number of

2:34
the vast number of people who had a criminal record. And so by 2014 I felt I had identified the problem. By 2015 I

2:42
very fortunately uh walked in on recommendation of my wife's niece walked into a second chance employer um a

2:51
restaurant in Charlotte called King's Kitchen. um it's a faith-based organization and met a lot of people who

2:58
had criminal records who had exited prison who were absolutely great employees and that piqued my interest

3:04
and I started reaching out to employers very notably um a company um uh in

3:10
Cincinnati called Nhemiah Manufacturing um which was named after a a a

3:16
historical figure in the Bible um and um although it's not a faith-based company

3:22
that they were inspired by by this story of rebuilding and they currently are one of the best second chance employers in

3:28
the country and I started as I collected all these stories and and met all these business leaders I realized didn't

3:36
matter the industry didn't matter the geography they all had the same pattern of success the the same model of success

3:43
and looking at demographics knowing the labor shortage was was coming I thought well here's a great solution I'll start

3:48
sharing it and uh that's been my journey for the last dozen years or So,

3:54
wow. It It's such an interesting concept. I I would think in some cases

The Risks Of Second Chance Hiring

4:00
like you've seen a lot of a lot of this work well. And does it always work well?

4:05
It seems like there's a lot of risk as well potentially. Well, um, every business, every hire has

4:11
risk. It's do you have a process for controlling that risk? And my work is

4:17
all about the process that works. And unfortunately, not every business has known how to do this in a way that's

4:24
effective. Um, so you have many um I was surprised after meeting all these great

4:29
companies that had figured it out started sharing it with an audience and said what a great experience, what a great um opportunity and people in the

4:37
audience would come up to me last year and say let me tell you about what happened to me when I tried it. And um I

4:43
came to know that there are essentially three models for doing this and only one works. And the the one that works is

4:49
what I call the true second chance model. And it's one where you have an effective process for selecting who

4:55
among this vast population of people with criminal records is ready to be a good employee. And then second process

5:01
you need is one for giving them support. Employers support all their employees, you know, a good employer. But the

5:09
supports needed for this population which might have some special restrictions based on um their their

5:15
conviction or more typically um it's nothing to do directly with a criminal record but it's coming from

5:21
multi-generational poverty lives with no coaching no vision of what their future can be and so employers have to find

5:28
ways to provide supports. When you put that together you have a really effective business and talent model. How

Stepping Into The Second Chance Hiring World

5:35
does somebody first get into this world? Like they're compelled by what they hear from you. They read your book that talks

5:42
a lot about this. How do they step into this world? I talk about what I call bridging the

5:47
box. You know, there's this policy that largely has been unsuccessful called ban the box. Um and where government mandate

5:54
that you can't ask upfront about whether someone has a record or not. That's that's had a lot of um problems.

6:00
Sometimes it's effective, sometimes it's counterproductive. Um but but I I like

6:05
that phrase of bridging the box. Um and for me that starts with employers who

6:10
are interested go finding another employer that is already doing this then

6:16
and talking to them about their experience. What I found is second chance employers are amazingly willing

6:22
to share. they really um embody, you know, this concept of servant leadership. And part of the ways they

6:27
can serve is not just serving their customers and serving their employees, but also serving their communities by

6:34
helping see that second chance hiring spreads. Um it's also valuable to go and meet with nonprofits that are in this

6:41
space. They can often be great partners. Um I suggest starting to even if you're

6:46
not ready to hire people with criminal records, when you get a background check, read it. really understand, try

6:51
to understand what happened. In most cases, um, people who get criminal records, uh,

6:58
are not criminal masterminds. They're not committed to a life of crime. They're just dumb kids or young people.

7:05
And it's helpful to have that uh, perspective. Um, so those are some of the key ways and certainly um, dropping

7:13
the universal restriction that I'll never hire anyone. If you're hiring someone who had a 20-year-old criminal

7:20
conviction and has since led an upstanding life, why would you care?

7:25
None of us want to be judged by something that happened 10 or 20 years ago. You alluded to this right at the

Resistance To Second Chance Hiring

7:31
beginning, and you hold a really important title, chief economist to one of the nation's largest banks. Uh you

7:38
alluded to this is not something that other people in your sphere necessarily

7:43
thought about, right? What did people think when they started hearing you talk about this from your position?

7:50
Well, there was a lot of resistance. Uh, you know, people assumed it was a social crusade. Um, a friend of mine, um, Don

7:56
Riss Miller is chief economist for one of the top macro research firms. Uh, Strategus, um, used to um, uh, be part

8:05
of an organization that promoted interaction with the Federal Reserve Bank and and industry professionals like

8:11
myself. and I spoke at a couple of Federal Reserve banks, uh, the regional Federal Reserve banks, the Chicago Fed,

8:17
I've spoke at the Philadelphia Fed, some some others. And, um, he he he pointed

8:23
out to me that when I got up there to start speaking about this, all the economists in the room had their arms

8:28
crossed, you know, in in sort of a defiant venture. And and by the end, they're all, you know, leaning forward,

8:36
recognizing this is the numbers speak for themselves. this is a business proposition. This is a datadriven

8:43
conclusion, not a social crusade. But but there was a lot of resistance at first, of course. Well, I think that's

Business Case For Second Chance Hiring

8:50
such an interesting perspective because a lot of times people think about it when I heard about it uh for the first

8:57
time. Initially, it really does sound like, oh, this is just a really good thing to do to help people out, but it

9:04
seemed more serviceoriented. And from your standpoint, there's definitely an aspect to helping and a huge aspect to

9:11
servant leadership, but the business case is so sound. Uh, and you've seen it

9:16
work. A and it has to be the business case. One of the things that I think I've

9:22
accomplished is influencing the nonprofit community in this space who um

9:27
in many which in many cases were taking a this is for a societal good that's why you should do it um stance. And my

9:36
response to that has always been uh businesses will write checks to charity

9:41
but they'll only hire people who can add value to their enterprise. And that means there's got to be a business case.

9:48
And it's not a case that works for everyone. I'm not about to say that um of the tens of millions of Americans

9:55
with a criminal record, all of them are going to be good employees. I'm saying out of a pool of 70 million people with

10:01
some criminal record, 19 million people with a with a felony conviction. Out of those vast pools, you can find people

10:08
who are not only ready to work, but they're eager to prove that they're worth more than their worst mistakes.

10:14
And that's a recipe for a great employee. Wow. You talked a little bit about the

Effects On The Macro Economy

10:20
labor shortages for years and you've talked a lot about bit like a lot about how to tap into untapped potential all

10:26
all of these things and I really uh am interested from the macro point of view

10:32
because we we obviously get the numbers every month and you always hear about okay labor numbers are up down whatever.

10:38
Uh how do you see this helping that conversation in the long term? You know, economists talk a lot about the the

10:45
multiple uh economic reports that come out every every week, but economic

10:51
growth really boils down to two factors and two factors alone. How fast can you grow your workforce? And how fast can

10:58
you grow the productivity of your workforce? And workforce growth is a function of births 20 and 30 years ago.

11:06
Um deaths that are going on right now or retirements that are going on right now.

11:12
um immigration factors, productivity is usually thought of as um investment in

11:17
machinery and software or other forms of technology, but it's also human development. You know, part of getting

11:23
your workforce, making them more productive is giving them the opportunity to rise to jobs of greater

11:29
productivity and contribution, giving them caring about them, giving them the mentoring. All those things that um

11:36
allow people to move up the economic ladder also benefit the macroeconomy.

Servant Leadership Perspective On Wall Street

11:43
We talk a ton about servant leadership on this podcast as as you know uh this

11:49
concept of servant leadership I don't think from the outside is a natural word

11:55
that people are using in the world's largest banks uh the world that you live

12:01
in um how do you see servant leadership playing out and are other people taking really bold steps as you have done to

12:08
bring to light ways to serve other people and really empower people. You know, I I I'll be honest with you. I

12:14
don't think about what others are doing a lot because I'm focused on what what I'm doing. I I I do think that you would

12:21
be surprised at the heart people have for servant leadership even in on Wall

12:27
Street and in the banking community. Um what's been interesting to me is some of the early supporters of my work um were

12:35
people on Wall Street. Um, you know, I'd mentioned Don Rissmiller. Uh, Jason Trener, who founded that firm was a huge

12:42
supporter early on, as are others in that, uh, in Strategicus Research Partners. Um, Ed Yard Denny is one of

12:48
the most noted economists in the country, has been a big supporter. Um, uh, when I first came out with the, um,

12:55
when the book was in pre-publication, um, a a money manager came up to me, a

13:01
very noted one, said, "I'd like to help." and he ended up financing sending 500 books into prisons because it's

13:08
essentially a message of hope. You know, it's the target audience is business CEOs, business leaders. Um so there is a

13:15
uh particularly in the investment industry uh people believe in opportunity

13:21
and people get that not everyone is set up to take advantage of opportunity and

13:28
that we'd all benefit if if people could move up and could contribute more to the

13:34
economy and to their own lives would benefit all of us. Um so so

13:39
what people don't realize often at the top ranks they think they have to do

13:45
this after they retire and uh there's some great initiatives I've

13:51
worked with sort of for instance the leadership and society um initiative at the University of Chicago and you meet a

13:58
lot of retired CEOs or uh retired business owners who want to contribute

14:04
and my message to them and and the the folks in Chicago would very nicely give me a little opportunity to talk to some

14:10
of these people over the years is do it before you retire. Open up your hiring

14:15
to give opportunity in ways that make business sense. Not an act of charity, but you can change a lot of lives,

14:23
change a lot of communities if you do it while you're in a business leadership role and don't wait and see this as a

14:29
charitable act for when you retire. How do people find companies that are

Can This Work In My Industry?

14:34
doing this? Because I'm thinking as listeners are listening, a lot of them are wondering, could this work in my industry, you know, and and they there's

14:42
not a ton of models out there, I'm guessing, that have totally adapted this. What industries does it work for?

14:48
And how do people find like-minded people? It it essentially works in every

14:53
industry. There are very few. It's usually a question of regulations sometimes um get in the way or can there

15:01
are regulatory restrictions. Um, what's important to realize is, uh, when you

15:08
talk about someone having a criminal record, it can mean all sorts of things. So, certainly I don't want, um, someone

15:15
with multiple DWIs driving a school bus. We all get that. Um, but, uh, if someone

15:24
made a mistake in youth and shoplifted and now they're 40 years old,

15:30
what do you care what they do, right? I mean, you know, could they drive the school bus? Sure they could. Um, and if

15:37
you look, most industries, even the regulated ones, still offer opportunity.

15:43
You may have to have some workarounds. There are exemptions. There may be exemptions you have to apply for. Um, but it does work in lots of places. I

15:50
will say it's been softer ground, more fertile ground in certain industries. So

15:56
manufacturing um construction uh tend to be what's sometimes termed

16:01
felony friendly uh industries. I think part of it is the objections go away.

16:06
Say in manufacturing many of these roles first of all pay very well and so that helps people sustain uh a living wage um

16:14
which helps keep people on the on the on the right track. Um number two they're typically roles where they're not

16:20
handling money. So any temptation um that might have if money was temptation

16:25
that drove crime in the past, money is out of the picture and you're not customerf facing in most roles. So those

16:31
relieve some of the objections and that's why you see um some of the leaders are in manufacturing and

16:38
construction, but we see it across every industry. Where to go? Um there's no easy directory of these. There's things

Finding Employers That Give A Second Chance

16:44
like the second chance business coalition um is about 50 companies. They tend to be large companies. that was

16:50
what this was designed for. That's one place um one place to start. Um often um

16:55
if you go to local workforce boards or nonprofits that are in this what's

17:01
called re-entry space, they'll know who who good employers are. Um but but it's

17:06
not easy. Um and for me it was in just an act of constant networking.

17:12
Wow. From the outside, we often hear about young men, which is one of the

Helping People Not To Re-Offend

17:18
populations you mentioned had you kind of first interested in this or that you first noticed some some oddities with

17:24
young men who go into prison and get out of prison. Uh, and we all the time hear

17:30
stats about they're so likely to reenter prison and to go back. Uh, how do you

17:37
help from the prison side? uh or how do you see people jumping in and making a

17:42
difference where that doesn't become the norm? Cuz the goal is re-entry and re-enter stronger than ever and move

17:49
past that point of whatever that foolish decision was or whatever led them there. But certainly um it's important to frame

17:56
that those statistics. Those are people coming out of state prison. If you are

18:02
in a state prison, it's likely you are already a multiple offender. Even when you look at the amount the the vast

18:09
number of felonies, 19 million Americans have a felony conviction, the majority

18:14
of them, the slight majority of them never even had to serve a prison term.

18:19
So, um, when you're getting to people who are already coming out of prison,

18:24
it's likely they are multiple offenders or convicted of a very serious crime already. So, they're not representative

18:30
of everyone who has a criminal record. So, that's important to understand. Um certainly the earlier you can intervene

18:38
in someone's life the better. The majority of people who have a criminal record committed a crime only once. Um

18:46
they're not the people who went to prison. They're not that, you know, it's often a fairly, you know, minor offense.

18:52
Um they learned their lesson. They, you know, it was a momentary lapse and they they don't do it again. So we should

18:59
kind of understand that framing. Um but what we have seen is uh employment that

19:07
follows this true second chance model is a really powerful way of intervening. Um

19:13
it g part of the reason people reaffend is if they come out of prison and they

19:19
have no opportunities not only is their sense of hopelessness but there's a monetary need and that

19:26
often drives them back into the same cycle. Um the hope factor is really

Countering Prisons As A Place Of Hopelessness

19:32
important um too to take into account. Prisons are places of hopelessness. Um I

19:37
I um I have visited numerous prisons. Um there are pockets of hope and and you

19:43
know wonderful faith-based community intervention and support. Um but for a lot of people it's a place of

19:49
hopelessness. And one of the reasons it's a place of hopelessness is because they don't think they can turn their

19:56
life around. And um so second chance hiring the word does get back into

20:02
prison that your life is not over that you still have an opportunity and that allows people to um invest in education

20:10
or gaining skills or rebuilding character. Um I I I believe second

20:16
chance hiring done right is actually a character filter. you higher on character. And sometimes that is

20:22
something hard to to square with people with coming out of prison. But the

20:28
reality is um you know I don't want to speak for you but I most people and I

20:34
can speak for myself you know come out and do the right things and stay out of trouble because that's the life we were

20:39
raised in. Our parents made choices. They put up guard rails in our life and we just kind of take that as the way to

20:45
go. If you weren't raised with that, got into trouble and had to rebuild your

20:50
life and you consciously decide to lead a good life, um that's a really powerful

20:58
moral pedestal uh on which to build your build your life foundation, moral foundation to to

21:05
build your life. And so I found that um and certainly among my friends who've gone to prison, they are the most

21:12
standup people in my life because they have had to make these choices consciously. And um it's it's um it's

21:20
really powerful. The more this goes on, it will create a positive feedback loop and will prevent a lot of that

21:27
recurring, you know, prison revolving door. How do you encourage people to get

Encouraging People To Get Involved

21:33
involved in this space that are not business owners, they're not in HR, but

21:38
they're working in companies or just living out a great life in their community. They're not post prison. How

21:44
do you encourage them to care and make a difference? Uh it depends on the person, the place,

21:51
all those sort of things. It is hard to influence company policy. Um, second chance hiring works best where you have

21:58
someone in senior senior leadership, preferably the CEO or the owner who's driving this forward. Um, it's very hard

22:06
for someone in the middle or lower ranks of a company to go and try to get this going. But there's a lot that people can

22:11
do to help people um who are trying to turn their life around and rebuild. Um,

22:18
mentoring is possible. um visiting prisons uh uh prison ministry is very

22:24
very powerful way to help support people. Donating books to any of the nonprofits that send books to to prison.

22:32
All of these things um help. The more personal the touch the better. It's not

22:37
for everyone. Often that comes you know across over years. um but having that

22:43
kind of um connection to the outside world. I will say for business junior executives for instance in businesses I

22:50
encourage people to um become educated. Those are our future leaders and those are the people who in 10 or 20 years are

22:57
going to be able to drive this forward. One of the ways I've been encouraging that is there's a great nonprofit called

Defy Ventures And Other Nonprofits

23:03
Defy Ventures and they teach entrepreneurship training. There are a couple other great ones too. The prison

23:08
entrepreneurship project in Texas. um uh Hustle 2.0. Um there's there's a number

23:14
of of these um out in the country, but Defy Ventures is is the largest and and

23:20
um very successful. They have what are essentially Shark Tank presentations in prison where uh residents of these

23:27
correctional facilities come up with an idea. Some of them are absolutely great ideas and they ask people from the

23:32
business community to either coach um or come in and judge. And I think that's a great thing for uh for uh people early

23:40
in their business career or frankly anyone to do. I'm sure a lot of people come to you and

Common Questions About The Economy

23:47
ask questions about the economy, right? Being chief economist of such a large

23:54
institution, uh people ask you general economy questions all the time. What are

23:59
some of the common questions that you're hearing especially in this uh unique

24:05
time in history and with this current economic client climate? And how are you

24:11
uh how are you navigating from your standpoint everything going on? The the questions tend to fall into the

24:18
same categories no no matter the environment. Um a are we going into a recession or will an expansion continue?

24:25
What are interest rates going to be? what's credit availability going to be our our my target audience as an

24:32
economist or business people and um but then you get a lot of policy questions

24:37
um particularly today on uh tariffs immigration um and I will say uh we have

24:44
for many years been getting consistent questions about the federal debt and deficit and uh what what part of the

24:52
value like like any economist we're wrong a lot um we try not to be but but

24:59
what what we do try to do and I think do well is give people a framework for thinking about this and that often means

25:06
being a a student of history. So for instance, in the great financial crisis in 0809 when it seemed like the world

25:12
was trying to end, I had a piece in the Chicago Tribune that basically counted that as the 15th uh crisis of that kind

25:21
we had seen since the nation's founding. And um and there characteristics of it is what used to be called a financial

25:27
panic. And um they all have certain similar characteristics. You come out of

25:32
them with very slow growth, which is exactly what happened. you get through them and helping people have that

25:39
framework is helpful. Um I fortunately uh right before uh the COVID um

25:45
shutdowns I had been reading about the Spanish flu, the great influenza uh

25:50
pandemic um in the early part of the 1900s and um had some historical

25:56
framing. Those are the ways that I think we help our customers best is is help them get some perspective, tell them

26:02
what to watch uh or what we're watching and give them a sense that they have

26:07
some control over how they can respond or what they can expect. Are there any economic trends that you

Economic Trends For The Public To Study

26:14
point people to to stay ahead of just what's going on? Obviously, not knowing good or bad necessarily, but just that

26:20
you encourage people, hey, read this, study this, understand this. I'd like to say we were

26:27
very helpful in getting our customers to start thinking about the labor shortage early. Um, I've been publicly talking

26:33
about the la the what we used to call the looming labor shortage back in 2015

26:38
or so and um uh by 2018 it was apparent

26:44
and now it's well understood that we have a demographic um challenge for for

26:49
growing our labor force. So that that's a great example uh of it. We're talking today about trends in the US currency.

26:57
Um we think we it's a little early to talk about but but we think we as Americans have to be very careful about

27:03
the impact our debt is having on confidence in the dollar um as well as business confidence. Uh those are the

27:10
kind of trends we we talk about. A lot of them are are are demographic. We talk a lot about the impact of automation.

27:16
And so we're pretty wide ranging um and uh have been pretty successful I believe

27:22
in not getting everything right at least helping our customers navigate these

27:28
challenges which really is the ultimate goal. I think a lot of people hear the news

Are You Hopeful?

27:34
and they get really discouraged. Uh they they just get really down because it

27:39
it's like the world is falling apart. Everything is going wrong. the news cycles these days are going faster than

27:44
ever before. Uh, as much as you can share, and I know you

27:50
can't share a ton necessarily on a public platform, but at the same point, are you hopeful for where we're heading?

27:56
Do you feel like people should be watching out for stuff? I'm factbased, and the facts of the matter are the

28:03
optimists are always right in the long run. And the reason for that in a capitalist free market economy is the

28:11
participants you and I and everyone else who are working are trying to

28:17
support and do better provide better lives for ourselves and our families by producing goods and services of values

28:24
to others. When you think about capitalism and free markets in that way, it becomes apparent that things are

28:31
going to improve over time because you and I are driven to offer the better service, the better product. Um because

28:38
that helps us and helps us and helps our families and that gives positive that

28:44
that's why the stock market is not a zero- sum game. That's why the economy expands over time. It's because we're

28:50
always trying to trying to do better. And um that I hope provides some comfort

28:56
for for the long run. Um you know I can't tell you where the stock market is going to be in in the in a year but um

29:03
Sir John Templeton used to have this wonderful thing and he'd say in 50 years don't you think it's going to be better

29:09
and of course in 50 years I would believe that I I just won't be here. But um but but um you know these are the

29:16
kind of the kind of perspective that I think is really important. The news cycle is destructive. um you have uh bad

29:24
news cells. We've all we've always known that. What is different is instead of seeing it in the morning paper, you hear

29:31
it throughout the day on social media, cable TV, it gets reiterated and uh

29:38
there's not and so we all have to bring this balance into our own lives and this

29:44
perspective. And uh I I think that's one of the things that um one of the ways

29:49
that I and the team at Fifth Third have been able to add value over the years. And just as you say that, one thing that

Market Moving On Emotions

29:55
I think is interesting and I don't know if this is true or not or if you can comment on it or not, but it feels like

30:01
sometimes uh in the last decade and even more recently than that. Um there's been

30:09
a lot of movement based on emotion, not necessarily based on the logic. And you

30:15
you mentioned like you like to think in facts. Is that frustrating when you see sometimes the market moving purely based

30:21
on emotion, not based on the facts, or is that just built in anyways in people's systems?

30:26
I it's long built in. When um I started in the industry many decades ago with a

30:32
company called EF Hutton, I sat next to a guy named Steve Niss. Steve Nissen is a a real pioneer and he's written

30:39
several books and on on what's called technical analysis to bring century old

30:45
Japanese techniques to the US. and he said, "You have to read this book." It was called Reminiscences of a Stock

30:50
Operator. And it was written in the 1920s. And it became apparent that fear

30:55
and greed have always been driving emotions in investing. And um when you

31:03
see distortions based on that for the wise investor or

31:08
for people who um you know I I don't handle the investment side anymore at fifths is very ablely handled by Tom

31:15
Jollix our chief investment strategist and his team that those are opportunities to take if if the market

31:21
price gets distorted by emotion that's an opportunity for investors who can stay sit back take an objective view and

31:29
that's what we try to do for our customers and clients. Wow, this this has been so good. Jeff, I

Ten Rapid-Fire Questions

31:36
want to finish with 10 rapidfire questions. Sure. Wow. We're you just say the first thing that

31:41
comes to mind, and there's no wrong answer. Okay. I'm bad at free associating, but I'll do my best.

31:46
Who's the first person you think of when I say servant leadership?

31:52
Well, one of your one of your guests. Uh I was just watching one of your earlier podcasts. I I encourage anyone to watch

31:58
it with Steve Preston who's the CEO of Goodwill International. He's also very kindly contributed a chapter to my next

32:04
book and I think he really exemplifies that in so many ways. Wow. He's he's amazing. Uh five words

32:11
that most describe you. uh intellectual um fun-loving um

32:20
adventurous uh curious

32:26
caring I hope. All right. Favorite book or movie?

32:32
I um love the movie Lawrence of Arabia.

32:40
I've traveled in the Middle East. I had the it's not called a minor but the equivalent of a minor certificate of

32:45
proficiency in near eastern studies and um it's just one of the greatest it's a

32:50
masterpiece of the cinema and the first time I saw it was in the Ziggfield Theater in New York which was before

32:56
there were IMAXes before there were big screens there was the Ziggfield and it was an enormous screen and beautiful

33:02
chandelier and luxurious setting in New York it's it's gone unfortunately but I saw it there with then my girlfriend now

33:10
my wife of 35 years, who's a film buff as well. Wow. All right. Favorite food.

33:16
[Music] Um I'm going to stay on that Middle East theme. Uh there's a Persian dish uh

33:23
called fessenjun or fessen john. Uh that is um yushi poultry duck or chicken

33:29
served in a walnut pomegranate sauce. And uh my my wife who's

33:36
Midwest American as as can be makes a great version of it. I used to cook it for her when we were dating and and uh

33:43
it's a it's a fabulous dish that you can find occasionally in some really good Persian restaurants. I'm gonna have to Google that later.

33:50
Barbecue, by the way. I got to give it I'm a big barbecue fan, particularly uh Kansas City style barbecue.

33:56
Love it. Favorite thing to do in your free time. Um

34:02
sailing. Um my boat is not in the water this year because I'm gone so many weekends. I I just couldn't put it in.

34:08
But um I I I love being on the water whether it's kaying, sailing. Um I have

34:13
an a wooden classic wooden small sailboat and uh it's it's a pretty happy

34:20
place for me when when I'm out under sail. Wow. This might lead into that. It might not. a surprising fact about you.

34:29
You know, to be honest with you, I think the most surprising fact is what I actually do with working with people

34:34
with criminal records and and uh you know, it's taken me to the White House twice. Uh but probably the most

34:40
interesting fact is there's an episode of Keeping Up with the Kardashians where um Kim Kardashian was speaking at an

34:47
event at the White House that was I was at and you can see me in the background. So, I think I'm the only bank economist

34:52
who's appeared. I'm keeping up in the with the Kardashians. I love that. Favorite place you've been.

35:01
Wow, that's tough because there lot lots of places um that I absolutely adore. Um

35:07
I I I um first went to Paris in um

35:13
1989, I think it was, or 1988, excuse me. And

35:19
um I remember thinking I didn't believe cities could be this beautiful and I

35:25
still uh Paris still takes my breath away with it with its beauty and uh the

35:30
constant surprises and things to discover there. Um I don't speak any French. Uh I'm embarrassed to say um I

35:36
try um and you know get people to revert to English as quickly as they can to

35:42
stop hearing me butcher their their beautiful language. But um Paris is hard to beat. Where's somewhere you want to

35:48
go that you haven't been? Oh, Budapest. Um, that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really interested in uh

35:54
some of the older European cities. Budapest, Prague. Haven't been. I've been to a lot of European cities, but uh

36:00
but not uh not Budapest. U my boys went around the Europe together with a URL

36:06
pass and uh Budapest was their favorite stop, and that's really in intrigued me.

36:12
All right. And final two, what's the best advice you've ever gotten?

36:21
Um I'm not sure who told it to me. Um

36:26
but I share this um with others. Um do the right thing.

36:32
And uh I I I meet with young professionals and I have these three rules and number one is earn a

Three Rules For Young Professionals

36:37
reputation for hard work and integrity. Number two, live up to that integrity.

36:43
Do the right thing even when it hurts. And number three, help others along the way. Wow, those are good. All right. And

Why A Servant Leadership Podcast Is Important

36:49
finally, why do you think a podcast on servant leadership is important? Because it helps model servant

36:57
leaderships for those who aspire to be that kind of leader. It helps them frame it, see they're not alone, see how

37:04
viable it is, see people who've been successful, who followed it, and maybe, I hope, get a few tips for how that they

37:11
might incorporate into their own version of servant leadership. Wow. Well, Jeff,

Closing

37:16
thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you for sharing so much insights with us and for all the work you're

37:21
doing just to help bring to light so many amazing opportunities that people can dive into.

37:27
Thank you, Chris. So, appreciate the time.