Mixed Feelings on Servant Leadership

0:00
I have a very uh mixed relationship with

0:03
servant leadership. So let me tell you

0:05
what I mean by that is I think servant

0:06
leadership is good if it's about serving

0:09
and supporting your people. But remember

0:11
the job of a leader isn't to make people

0:13
comfortable. It's to make them capable.

0:16
And so if you're a servant leader and

0:19
you're just giving giving giving giving

0:20
giving I don't see how that's helpful to

0:23
people.

Introducing Lisa Bodell

0:30
Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

0:32
we welcome Lisa Bodell, founder and CEO

0:34
of Future Think. For more than two

0:37
decades, Lisa has led Future Think, a

0:39
global innovation research and training

0:41
firm that has helped organizations like

0:43
Google, Netflix, Croup, and the US Navy

0:46
War College strip away complexity and

0:48
get back to meaningful work. She's the

0:51
author of Why Simple Wins and Kill the

0:54
Company. and her killing complexity

0:55
keynote has become one of the most

0:57
talked about frameworks in leadership

0:58
circles for cutting through busyiness to

1:00
find what actually matters.

Lisa on Simplicity in AI

1:03
Join us as Lisa talks about the future

1:05
of simplicity in an AI world and shares

1:07
how to finally stop organizing and start

1:10
simplifying.

Welcome Lisa Bodell

1:13
Lisa, welcome to the Servant Leadership

1:15
Podcast. Thank you for being here.

1:17
Oh, thanks Chris. I'm glad to be here.

1:19
I am so excited. I told you this before

1:21
we started recording, but your content

1:24
over the last couple months has

1:25
absolutely rocked my world. Uh

Discussing Killing Complexity

1:28
oh.

1:29
How does somebody even get into talking

1:31
about killing complexity?

1:33
Well, I think you experience it and you

1:35
get so fed up with it that then you

1:36
decide to talk about it. It's like a

1:38
form of therapy, Chris. So, I I do I

1:41
truly believe that that when you hear

1:42
people speak about topics and you know,

1:44
you probably do what you do, but you

1:46
became familiar with it because you're

1:47
trying to solve something or fix it in

1:48
your own life. And that's what happened

1:50
with me is like I was really good at

1:52
enduring complexity and I thought that

1:54
was so important. You know, I could

1:55
manage it all. Um but that's not what it

1:57
is to manage it. It's to get rid of it.

1:59
And so that was a real light bulb moment

2:01
for me and I wanted to give other people

2:03
permission to do the same.

Building Simplified Processes

2:05
Yeah. Well, I have so many questions

2:07
about Killing Complexity and just the

2:09
thoughts behind it. But one of the

2:10
things that I found myself doing uh as I

2:14
started reading all of your stuff was

2:17
starting to build out processes to

2:19
simplify things and there was this like

2:22
chicken and egg scenario like talk about

2:25
how you actually stop organizing and

2:28
start simplifying and like how you even

2:30
recommend people taking the first step.

Stop Organizing, Start Simplifying

2:32
Yeah, I mean that's a really good

2:34
question. So, it is about stop

2:36
organizing and start simplifying because

2:38
everyone thinks being organized is the

2:40
same thing as being simplified and it's

2:41
not the same thing. You know, it's um

2:43
Oh, sorry. I got my emojis going. Uh

2:47
you can drown in spreadsheets all day

2:49
long. And I laugh that I have employees

2:51
that have given me spreadsheets that

2:52
would, you know, it's organized, but it

2:54
gives you a migraine. And it's about

2:56
eliminating, not organizing. And so,

2:58
that's why we want to get people to

2:59
start thinking about getting rid of what

3:01
doesn't matter so you can focus on what

3:03
does. And that's different than

3:04
organizing all the things because a lot

3:07
of them don't matter. And that's just a

3:10
new way of looking at it. Like I don't

3:12
need a to-do list with everything on it.

3:13
I need less priorities. I need just a

3:15
few important things. And doing that

3:17
lets you define what is important and

3:21
what matters versus all the leaders

3:24
wanting to have multiple priorities. I

3:25
don't need you to rank all my crap. I

3:27
need you to get rid of my crap. And so

3:29
that's a different way of looking at it.

3:30
That's all.

Subtraction and Overcommitment

3:31
How do you do it? Because you talk about

3:33
like start with subtraction, right? And

3:35
taking away things. But I think the

3:37
natural tendency is

3:39
uh people feel over committed and

3:42
extremely busy like

3:44
over badge of honor.

3:46
Yeah, it is a badge of honor. It but

3:48
it's like okay, how do you make it where

3:50
it's not fearful? I'm going to get rid

3:51
of too much where now I'm not needed.

3:53
Well, not even when you're not needed.

3:55
People are afraid of getting fired. I

3:56
mean, that's a big thing, right? I mean,

3:57
that's when it comes down to it. Why

3:59
don't people want to get rid of stuff?

4:00
They don't want to look stupid. They

4:01
don't want to do the wrong thing. they

4:02
don't want to get fired. So there's a

4:03
lot of fear that drives complexity.

4:05
That's the biggest issue. And so by

4:08
taking away the fear um you can take

4:10
away the friction. And so how I tell

4:12
people to figure out what matters is I

4:14
have them actually as a group define it.

4:16
Because a lot of leaders will say, "Oh,

4:18
everyone knows what matters." And then

4:19
when you ask the team, they can't tell

4:21
you specifically what m you know,

4:23
everyone has a different 15 different

4:25
definitions. So what I'll have people do

4:28
is actually um make a T-chart. This is

4:31
an interesting leader thing to do and

4:33
then team thing to do. And on the left

4:34
hand side of the T-chart is what you

4:36
spend your day doing and on the right

4:37
hand side is what you wish you spent

4:38
your day doing. And so the left-hand

4:41
side what people spend their day doing

4:43
when they write write it down like I

4:45
tell them tell them write down 20 things

4:47
because 20 things is hard but it really

4:50
makes them think and what most people

4:52
write down are the work of work like

4:55
emails meetings reports you know it's

4:57
internal stuff and it's soul sucking

5:00
stuff but then when I say tell me the

5:03
stuff on the right you know on the right

5:05
hand side of the t-chart write down what

5:06
you wish you were doing it's

5:08
aspirational It's inspirational. It's

5:10
external. It's forwardlooking. That's

5:12
the stuff that drives the company.

5:14
And so what that does is it makes people

5:16
look at the lefthand side and say,

5:18
"Which one of these things is really

5:19
meaningful?" And by the way, not much of

5:21
it is. And how much on the right hand

5:23
side do you wish you could spend your

5:25
time on? They're getting to a definition

5:26
of meaningful work together. So it's a

5:29
simple task, but you should try it and

5:31
see how you can collectively come up

5:33
with what is valuable and meaningful.

Investing Time Wisely

5:35
I I heard you talk about that same thing

5:37
and talk about the difference between

5:39
are you spending your time or investing

5:41
your time.

5:42
Yeah.

5:43
And and that was something that just

5:45
stuck with me like right when I heard

5:46
you say that I was like

5:48
oh I've never really thought of it that

5:50
way. I try to invest my time so that I

5:51
save a ton of time later. Um how

5:54
that's good. How is it so hard for

5:57
people to invest their time? And how do

5:59
people even like you talk about getting

6:01
rid of some of those mundane tasks, but

6:03
it's like they're necessary evils. So,

6:05
how do you get rid of them?

6:06
Well, I think people I don't people

6:09
think they don't take their time

6:11
seriously. They give it away. I mean,

6:13
that's why being busy is such a badge of

6:14
honor. Like, being busy is just giving

6:16
your time away. You're spending it. The

6:18
more time I spend, the more valuable I

6:19
must be. They think in terms of volume

6:21
versus value. And so I tell people to

6:24
get really quote selfish with your time.

6:26
By the way, being selfish with your time

6:27
isn't selfish. It's your time. No one

6:29
has a right to take take your time. I

6:31
mean, who says who has the right to take

6:33
your time? Um, and so that's where

6:35
people actually are spending their days

6:37
like they're just executing their

6:39
calendars. They're not really thinking

6:40
about how they're spending their time or

6:42
investing their time. So, if people got

6:44
more selfish with their time and

6:45
realized it's a non-renewable resource,

6:48
I think that they would really look at

6:49
their days and the value of what they

6:53
give their time to a lot differently.

6:55
It's okay to be selfish with your time.

Balancing Servant Leadership

6:57
How do you balance that? Because we talk

6:59
about like servant leadership a lot and

7:01
sometimes servant leadership uh it it's

7:05
people say it's one thing but also it's

7:07
at the expense of the leader. How do you

7:09
balance that well with the concept of

7:11
servant leadership? I have a very uh

7:15
mixed relationship with servant

7:16
leadership. So let me tell you what I

7:18
mean by that is I think servant

7:19
leadership is good if it's about serving

7:21
and supporting your people. But remember

7:24
the job of a leader isn't to make people

7:25
comfortable. It's to make them capable.

7:28
And so if you're a servant leader and

7:31
you're just giving giving giving giving

7:33
giving I don't see how that's helpful to

7:35
people. I mean that then they might not

7:37
be growing growing growing. They're just

7:38
comfortable. They don't challenge the

7:39
status quo. You get lazy. you do um you

7:44
you don't learn anything new. I mean

7:46
that's not really being a servant

7:47
actually. That's just being a well I

7:50
don't know help I guess. So I I what you

7:54
want to do is make people capable and so

7:56
servant leadership should be in service

7:58
of growth not comfort and that's a

8:00
little bit different. So and

8:02
simplification helps do that by the way.

8:03
It forces people to focus on um what is

8:08
meaningful and what is meaningful isn't

8:10
always easy. It can be hard,

8:11
right?

8:12
But we focus. That's why a lot of people

8:14
get comfortable in complexity because

8:15
it's easy to say, "Well, I've got to do

8:18
this report. Well, I don't have time." I

8:20
mean, it becomes complexity becomes an

8:22
excuse not to grow and that's a problem.

Eliminating Non-Stimulating Tasks

8:24
Yeah. One of the things that that you've

8:26
talked about is think about all the

8:28
things that you do and maybe it's part

8:29
of the T-chart exercise, but but it's

8:32
think about all the things on the left

8:33
side that are um maybe not

8:39
they're not stimulating, they don't

8:40
excite you, and they're boring and you

8:42
wish you could get rid of them. Is 10%

8:44
of what you do something you can get rid

8:46
of? And what else could you fill that

8:48
10% with? And when I thought about how

8:50
you phrased that, I was like, "Wow,

8:51
that's really good." That's whatever I

8:53
think you said like five weeks of your

8:55
time is is actually something that you

8:59
could refill with

9:00
flush down the toilet. Yeah, you could

9:02
you could use that for I mean imagine

9:03
what you could do with five I mean

9:04
wouldn't you love five weeks of

9:05
vacation? Yeah. I'd also love five weeks

9:08
to actually do something different with

9:10
my life. I mean most people would. So

9:13
you know it it just depends on how you

9:14
want to use your time. I mean at the end

9:15
of the day how you use your time is up

9:16
to you.

Implementing Simplification

9:20
Yeah. So, how do people actually do

9:22
this? Like, I think everyone when they

9:25
hear your content is going to be like,

9:26
"This is both revolutionary and also

9:29
like just so refreshing." And then it's

9:32
like, "Okay, what do I do?" And how do

9:33
you not end up just organizing the heck

9:35
out of it where then it's like I filled

9:37
it up with other meaningless stuff.

9:39
Yeah. That well, a few things. First of

9:40
all, um what happens is people get

9:43
excited and the first thing they want to

9:44
do is organize and that's fine, but it's

9:46
about organizing. It's about

9:47
eliminating. Right? Your goal isn't to

9:49
manage stuff. It's to eliminate what

9:50
isn't working. So, that's number one.

9:52
Number two is this is where people get

9:54
skeptical and they're like, "Well, easy

9:56
for you to say, Lisa, you're the boss."

9:57
And they're right. I am the boss, so I

9:59
can make the I can make the decisions,

10:01
right? However, um,

10:04
as an individual contributor, I want

10:06
everybody on my team to simplify

10:09
and I want them to be in their sphere of

10:11
control. Sorry for my emojis here. I

10:13
want them to be in their sphere of

10:15
control and look at their own day and

10:17
their own life and figure out what they

10:18
can get rid of. Right? I I I don't have

10:20
time to figure that out for them. They

10:22
should. So, if you're worried about what

10:24
your boss thinks, forget about that

10:26
part. Look at your own calendar and say,

10:27
"Are there ways I could time box

10:28
differently? Are there things I could do

10:30
more quickly? Are there things that I

10:32
could suggest that are redundant or just

10:34
um no one's using them and I should say

10:36
we shouldn't do that so I can do more

10:38
valuable things?" Your boss isn't going

10:39
to argue with that. I mean, I wouldn't I

10:42
if they do, I want to know why. So, I I

10:44
think there's a lot of things personally

10:46
that we do out of obligation and because

10:49
we want to be nice, right? We want to be

10:51
nice. We don't want to hurt people's

10:52
feelings, but in the end, you know, I

10:54
don't know if those people are

10:55
reciprocating back to you. They're just

10:56
taking your time. So, it really makes

10:57
you you question what you're doing out

11:00
of um I don't know, fear or obligation

11:03
versus out of meaning and contribution

11:05
and growth. And that's important for you

11:06
to take control of as much as you can in

11:08
your own life.

Feeling Like a Machine

11:09
Yeah. If you end up filling your time

11:11
with all of this high productive stuff,

11:14
at what point do you start to feel like

11:16
just a machine that's like sole value is

11:18
in output output output or because I

11:20
know you talk a ton about like taking

11:22
time to think, you know, and it's like

11:24
the opposite of that.

11:25
Well, here's the other thing which is

11:27
well, I can say just from personal

11:28
experience, I am a machine. Like I was

11:31
the reason I was promoted so early and

11:33
so often was because I was a machine at

11:36
getting stuff done. I was just raised

11:38
that way and that was just my thing and

11:42
I thought that was value was just like

11:43
pumping it out. But I would at the end

11:46
of the day I wasn't exhilarated. I was

11:48
exhausted. So that's not meaningful work

11:50
if you're just constantly just feeding

11:52
the machine. People will work really

11:54
really hard really hard if they feel

11:57
like they're making a meaningful

11:59
contribution. So that's really to me the

12:01
benchmark which is if my people at the

12:03
end of the day if they're tired but

12:06
exhilarated that's a plus. If they're

12:08
tired but exhausted that's not

12:10
meaningful work. And I think you have to

12:11
make that judgment for yourself really.

Making Time to Think

12:13
Yeah. How do you balance the taking time

12:16
to think because that's something you

12:17
talk about is like actually giving space

12:20
to think within an organization.

12:22
Well, you have to because it's really

12:23
easy to get on the the you know the

12:25
hamster wheel, right? I do it too. I

12:28
mean, that's even though I talk about

12:30
simplification, it's really easy to get

12:31
caught up in tasks because I I love a

12:34
good to-do list and checking it off.

12:36
It's such a dopamine hit for me. I love

12:38
it. But it's really easy to get in that

12:40
trap and then be like, "But I'm not

12:41
moving forward in my life. I'm just kind

12:43
of treading water, right?"

12:45
And I think what you have to do is you

12:48
have to when you start um make time to

12:51
think. You have to actually if you're a

12:52
leader you should mandate it because

12:54
people will feel selfish taking it

12:56
because so much of our culture has been

12:59
um thinking is thinking is almost

13:01
selfish. It's not really doing

13:03
something.

13:04
You know it's not a doing. So therefore

13:06
you're being lazy. Like I ask people how

13:08
many people here have had to sneak a

13:10
fake meeting on their calendar just to

13:11
have time to think. And I'm like well

13:13
that's interesting. So you have to

13:14
actually lie in order to think. Although

13:17
your company says thinking is important.

13:19
Why are you lying? Right? So I tell my

13:22
team I mandate that they put a half day

13:25
on the calendar for deep work. Now

13:28
everyone does it at a different time.

13:30
I'm a morning person, some people are

13:31
night. So you can't mandate the same

13:33
time for everybody. I don't think that

13:35
works well.

13:36
But the second thing is some people use

13:38
it for deep think and other people use

13:40
it to clear off their to-do list. In my

13:42
opinion is that's on them. If I give

13:44
them time to think and all they do is

13:46
clear off their to-do list, they need to

13:49
get better at getting rid of things.

13:51
I've told them to do it. I've given them

13:52
the deep work. And if they can't handle

13:54
it, that's a them problem, not a me

13:55
problem. And I think bosses need to

13:57
think that way, right? You got to give

13:58
them the tools, but people need to get

14:00
comfortable with taking control of their

14:02
time. One of the fears that I have even

14:05
thinking about our team and we don't

14:06
have a massive team but we've got a

14:08
goodsized team is you give people that

14:11
time and all of a sudden production is

14:13
going down during that time right and

14:15
it's how do you balance okay we're not

14:17
producing but it might benefit us in the

14:19
long run like how do you balance that

14:21
and

Killing Stupid Rules

14:22
yeah it would in the long run but see I

14:24
don't do it as the first thing I don't

14:25
all of a sudden say now I want everyone

14:27
to think first I get rid of the things

14:28
first like one of the things we do um

14:31
you know if you know my work is we kill

14:32
stupid rules. Like I make sure on my

14:34
team, there's many things we've done

14:36
recently, but you know, we started

14:38
quarterly and now we just do it every

14:39
six months because we've killed so many

14:41
rules. I ask people to tell me what

14:43
rules they want to kill and they come up

14:46
with a lot of stuff and most of the

14:47
rules are my rules

14:48
that I came up with, which is

14:50
fascinating to me

14:51
because I'm like, what? What do you mean

14:53
my rule was stupid? But they'll tell me

14:55
why and we get rid of it. The point is

14:57
is I'm creating space for thinking to

14:59
happen and for more meaningful work to

15:02
happen first

15:03
and then what that does is it frees them

15:05
up from stress and barriers so they can

15:07
actually think. So I would say

15:09
simplification is the first step and

15:11
then adding in the thinking time once

15:13
the space is created is what you do.

Simplicity and Innovation

15:16
Yeah. One one of the things that I think

15:18
it's attributed to you like a quote is

15:20
simplicity is the front end of

15:22
innovation, right? And and one of the

15:24
things that we're seeing now more than

15:26
ever is AI and it's everywhere. You

15:29
can't even go a day without talking to

15:31
somebody about AI.

15:33
Yeah.

15:33
How do you see this fitting in because

15:35
there's so many benefits, but now the

15:37
innovation curve is like just straight

15:40
up and it's how do you keep up with it?

15:42
Well, I just gave a a talk on that

15:44
actually this morning. I Well, I think

15:47
simplification and AI go hand in hand. I

15:50
mean, the point though is is in service

15:52
of what? So I think the future's going

15:53
to be um AI enabled but humanled and

15:57
here's why. Like we've we've been in the

15:59
industrial age for 120 years and we've

16:01
really as humans we have changed

16:02
ourselves dramatically for machines.

16:04
Like you know we had to get all the data

16:06
and the reports and all the stuff done

16:07
like in service of machines so the

16:09
processes could work and I think it's

16:10
going to flip itself on its head now is

16:12
that now the machines can service us and

16:14
they can do the doing the mundane which

16:16
frees us up to do the thinking. And I I

16:19
told my team by the way this was two

16:21
months ago. I said we are an agentic

16:23
company. You will because we are about

16:25
simplicity. Every single one of you is

16:27
going to create five agents a week and I

16:28
want to know exactly what things AI

16:30
should take off your plate and that will

16:32
leave you to the things that only humans

16:35
can do like decision-m judgment create a

16:37
problem. I'm not giving that to AI. Are

16:38
you kidding? And in 30 days, not 60,

16:41
they created over 30 agents and we

16:44
completely automated a good part of our

16:46
business. I mean it was stunning. But so

16:48
and what does that mean? because now

16:50
they freed up time for more creative

16:52
problem solving, more development work,

16:54
more training practice, more external

16:57
thinking, more time with clients. But

16:59
that's what humans should be doing. We

17:01
were spending all our time doing the

17:02
machine work. Let the machines do the

17:04
machine work. And so that's where I

17:05
think uh AI is helping. It's it's a key

17:08
part of the simplification process. It

17:10
lets me do what I do best as a human.

17:12
That's the goal.

AI and Team Innovation

17:13
Wow. I love that. And it's so

17:15
inspirational when when I think through

17:17
even a team creating let's say 30 agents

17:20
in a month. That is amazing. Let's say

17:23
they do it again next month and they do

17:25
it again the following month.

17:27
And they are they're addicted and it's

17:28
great by the way. They they are I didn't

17:32
I don't want to say I forced them. I

17:33
forced them to get started because they

17:34
were they were nervous to do. People

17:36
don't know how to start. So you need a

17:37
boss to be like guys let's do this. We

17:39
did showand tells we figured out by the

17:41
way which ones didn't work and we killed

17:43
them. I mean like you know it's not all

17:44
going to work which agents were going

17:46
rogue like it's not a oneanddone thing

17:48
but what was cool about it was we used

17:51
oursel as a learning lab and um it is

17:54
just our teams are just like ecstatic

17:57
they brag about it at cocktail parties

17:58
because they're like I never have to

18:00
touch Salesforce again it automatic you

18:02
know I have agents that do that stuff

18:04
it's it's that feeling you want when

18:06
remember we talked about that T-chart

18:08
the lefth hand side of the chart that

18:09
was soul sucking work agents do that

18:12
crap now are you kidding me. They're on

18:14
the right hand side of the chart. That's

18:15
the goal.

Managing AI Agents

18:16
How do you keep it organized? Because

18:17
when you keep expanding that much and

18:19
there's so many new things happening,

18:21
let's say this year, you're going to

18:22
launch so many new agents. How do you

18:24
organize it?

18:25
Well, I the goal isn't to have a million

18:27
agent. I mean, in the future, I think

18:29
every person is going to be a boss

18:30
because they're are going to have, you

18:32
know, a synthetic team and a human team.

18:34
And the synthetic team you have to

18:36
manage just like you do a human team.

18:37
You got to get a prompt library. you

18:39
have to manage the agents and and

18:41
monitor them and make sure that they're

18:43
not going rogue on stuff uh and tweak

18:46
them and make sure that the data is

18:47
right. This is another conversation, but

18:50
I mean to me the goal isn't to have um a

18:53
thousand agents. Some of those agents

18:55
have to know how to work together. So

18:56
that's a good collaboration effort. It's

18:58
making sure you have the right tech

19:00
stack so you're not, you know, to

19:02
overuse the term token maxing or wasting

19:04
your money. And it's making sure that

19:07
you all have a library of who has what

19:09
agents. So if somebody leaves, you know,

19:11
you own the agents, not them.

19:14
And uh to know exactly what everybody's

19:16
doing.

Outdated Leadership Practices

19:17
That's really important, too. So it's

19:19
good. We want to make sure agents aren't

19:20
doing things they shouldn't be doing.

19:22
Yeah. Is there anything that you feel

19:24
like especially in this age of AI where

19:26
you feel like this is an old way people

19:28
were doing leadership and now with all

19:30
of your research and things that are

19:32
just happening in society that you feel

19:34
like hey that's so outdated even though

19:36
people are still talking about it

19:39
is there anything that's so outdated

19:41
even though people are still talking

19:42
about it? Yeah. I mean I I do feel like

19:44
I mean I'm a big person about

19:46
challenging the status quo. So, like I I

19:49
think that uh

19:52
people resisting AI is silly. I think

19:55
there's certain ways I mean there's

19:57
boundaries just like anything, but I

19:58
remember as someone who's a little bit

20:00
older, you know, when uh the web was

20:03
first happening, I remember being at

20:04
some companies and them resisting having

20:06
their teams be able to check their

20:08
external email. They weren't really sure

20:10
if they needed a website. I mean, just

20:11
crazy talk. I mean, no one's going to

20:13
put their credit card online. I mean,

20:15
truly, these were big conversations. I

20:17
mean, now you laugh, but right, I think

20:19
AI is going to be the same way. I mean,

20:21
there are certain things and regulations

20:22
we've got to put in place, but

20:23
otherwise, I just go, are you nuts?

20:25
Like, let's let's figure out how to use

20:27
it responsibly. So, I want to get in

20:28
early so I can figure that out on my

20:30
own. Um, and then I just think there's

20:32
generic stuff with leadership. Like, I

20:34
think leaders um not trusting people to

20:37
do better work. I think leaders not

20:39
letting people challenge things in terms

20:42
of what's not working is just crazy. Um,

20:45
yeah. I'm a big person in in in

20:47
questioning things and piloting getting

20:49
rid of them so we can stop the fear and

20:51
stop tolerating things we shouldn't.

Challenges in Simplicity Mindset

20:54
Yeah. When as you've seen tons of

20:57
organizations roll out this simplicity

20:59
mindset.

21:00
What are what are the stopping points

21:02
where people like bump into issues and

21:04
you're like, "Oh, I wish you didn't bump

21:05
into that." Like because I'm sure

21:06
there's some common themes where people

21:08
try and they fail. They try and they

21:10
fail and then they finally figure it

21:11
out.

21:12
Yeah. I think it's a great point

Complexity and Simplicity

21:14
because

21:14
not all simplicity efforts work, you

21:15
know. I mean, it's like some things

21:17
shouldn't be simplified. There are some

21:18
things that um there should be some

21:20
friction that exists. And what I mean by

21:22
that is like um you know, not everybody

21:25
should be able to fly a plane. Everyone

21:26
has to be able to go to flight school.

21:28
Not everyone should do open heart

21:29
surgery. You know, there there are

21:31
complex things out there. But the point

21:32
is is that it it might be complex, but

21:35
it shouldn't be complicated. Like I want

21:36
my doctor to go to medical school, but I

21:38
don't want it to be so hard that he

21:40
can't think every time he opens up a

21:41
heart. Right? So I mean there's a

21:43
balance. So I I think when people start

21:43
in a more simplified way at

21:47
organizations, you don't tell people to

21:49
simplify everything. Have them focus on

21:51
the biggest pain point like meetings, I

21:53
don't know, email, reports, um have them

21:56
get rid of rules. Make it a methodical

21:58
thing that you do, not a oneanddone. I

22:00
think a lot of times um these

22:02
initiatives die because they do it once

22:04
and they think that's all it takes. But

22:05
you know, complexity is a weed. It grows

22:07
back. So it has to be a process you do

22:09
over and over again. Um, and that

22:11
invites people to constantly question

22:14
work. It's a good thing.

Communication and Culture

22:15
Yeah. In terms of the communication,

22:17
it's easy top down to say, "All right,

22:19
everyone, it's time to simplify stuff.

22:21
Figure out 10% and get rid of it." Uh,

22:24
in the how do you actually get

22:27
communication though in a way that it's

22:28
becomes part of culture versus just

22:31
communicating words?

22:33
I think what you want to do is say why

22:36
complexity is a problem or why

22:38
simplicity matters. So I think one of

22:42
the things that happens is leaders roll

22:44
out these simplicity efforts as

22:47
productivity efforts

Productivity vs. Meaningful Work

22:49
and people don't like that. Look, I'm a

22:52
very productive person. So if somebody

22:54
came to me and said we need a

22:55
simplification effort because we need to

22:56
be more productive, I would be very

22:58
offended. It'd be like you know screw

23:00
you. I'm very productive. But if you

23:02
came to me instead and said we really

23:04
need you to stop wasting your time and

23:06
do more meaningful work. Let's get rid

23:08
of the things that don't matter. Then

23:10
I'm on board because that qu It's not

23:12
about questioning me. That's

23:14
productivity. It's about questioning

23:16
work. That's simplification and

23:17
meaningful work. Those are different. I

23:19
want to stop fixing me and I want to

23:21
start fixing work. That's different.

Burnout and Complexity

23:23
Yeah. One of the things I I forget if I

23:25
read it or heard you say in one of your

23:27
talks, but but you talk about um the

23:32
overlap of burnout and complexity and

23:34
how and how they kind of go hand in

23:36
hand. it.

23:37
Who knew?

23:38
That kind of feeds into that mindset,

23:40
right?

23:41
It is. Yeah. I mean, it's the the phrase

23:43
I always use is it's time to stop fixing

23:45
people

23:46
to do more work and it's time to start

23:48
fixing work to better leverage our

23:50
people. And we've made it so much that

23:52
it's a people problem. And I don't

23:55
believe that. I think some people are,

23:56
you know, complex and disorganized and

23:58
all that and that they need to go. I

24:00
mean, that's not

24:01
I'm very forthright about that. But I

24:04
think there are a lot of people that

24:05
just need permission to stop doing

24:07
ridiculous stuff. That's what burns them

24:09
out. It's just the I spend all my time

24:12
on meaningless stuff. I'm not at the end

24:15
of the day, I'm exhausted, not

24:16
exhilarated. It's related.

First Steps to Simplify

24:18
So if somebody's listening and they're

24:19
like, I love this. What's like the first

24:22
step they should take tomorrow to

24:24
actually start simplifying?

24:26
All right, here's an AI one you want to

24:28
know. I had my team when we started that

24:31
agentic journey which is you know that's

24:33
something you have to choose to do. I

24:35
said, 'Guys, I want you to put all your

24:38
your calendars, your tasks, just spew.

24:40
We're big into dictation. Spew

24:42
everything you do during a week, all the

24:44
mundane tasks, all that, put it into AI

24:47
and have cl we use cloud. Have cloud

24:49
organize it into green, yellow, red, all

24:52
the tasks that are green and and should

24:54
be um given to an agent.

Task Categorization

24:57
Things that are just ro, you know,

24:59
mundane. yellow are things that an agent

25:01
can do some of, but you still have to

25:03
have human support. And then red tasks

25:06
that you see here, like strategic

25:07
planning, judgment, budgeting. Those are

25:09
red tasks and shouldn't be given away.

25:11
So, what I'm asking Claude to do is look

25:13
at my work and organize it in terms of

25:16
what's meaningless and should be given

25:17
away and what's meaningful and I should

25:19
be devoting more time to. So, that's one

25:21
thing you can do. Another thing I would

25:23
do is I would just look at your your

25:25
work and say, um, what are some things

25:28
that I should just kill immediately?

25:29
what are what are things that I should

25:31
stop doing? So, writing a stop it list

25:33
is just as important as a to-do list.

Stop It List

25:35
And when um Santa Fe, which is a

25:38
pharmaceutical company, did this, it

25:40
made everybody commit to uh giving a

25:43
list of what they would stop doing. It

25:46
was amazing what each person came up

25:48
with.

25:49
So, it forces you to say, "If I never

25:51
did these things again, it wouldn't me

25:53
no one would miss it." And they came up

25:56
with a lot of stuff. I mean, they saved

25:57
hundreds of hours just by doing that

25:59
exercise.

Practical Steps to Simplify

26:00
Wow. I love those practical steps in in

26:03
the stop it exercise because you see

26:05
this all the time.

26:07
Some people might be like everything I'm

26:09
doing is crucial and then they run it

26:10
through something like Claude and Claude

26:12
says, "Oh no, half of your work is

26:14
meaningless and then there's like some

26:15
balance probably in between it." How do

26:17
you actually help people realize like

26:20
you can stop it? It's okay.

26:21
Not me. And in fact, it's interesting. I

26:23
shouldn't say meaning it's not

26:24
meaningless. It's um it's not worth your

26:27
time. Your time is more valuable than

26:28
that,

26:30
right? Like those reports might be very

26:32
meaningful, but god, you doing the data

26:34
analytics on it. Holy cow, is that a

26:36
time suck,

26:38
and I'd rather have a machine do that

26:39
for you. So, I think the goal is is what

26:44
do you want to be doing? That's really

26:45
what you need people to identify

26:48
because you don't want them to think,

26:49
"All right, I'm giving my job to AI. I'm

26:50
going to be fired."

AI and Task Management

26:52
But what else should you be filling your

26:53
time with? And the goal is to get rid of

26:55
the things that you don't like to do so

26:57
you can do more things that energize

26:58
you. And I would think that you could

27:00
come up with a lot more than doing

27:01
reports and meetings.

27:02
Yeah. One of the things that this makes

27:05
me think of and this is just a sidebar

27:07
is that uh I know you're dealing a lot

27:09
in the AI space, a lot in the human

27:10
centric space, a lot with complexity. If

27:13
you had like a calculator that just

27:15
helped people plug in those red, yellow,

27:17
and green tests and then they could plug

27:19
in the token credits and compare what's

27:21
actually worth doing and then they could

27:22
see the payoff. I think for some

27:24
management and other people it would

27:26
like turn on a light switch of that

27:28
makes sense to do that doesn't make

27:29
sense to do that makes sense and we have

27:31
to figure out who else can do that. So

27:33
well that's what they're trying to get

27:34
at right now is you know a lot of the

27:35
issues companies are having is they

27:36
aren't getting the ROI out of the right

27:39
the money they're putting in. Um, but I

27:41
think some of that is because they

27:42
haven't invested in the people because,

27:44
you know, it's one thing to offload the

27:46
mundane work, but I would just say, you

27:48
know, putting AI on top of terrible

27:50
processes makes just terrible stuff

27:52
happen faster. So, you know, that's

27:55
that's the issue. So, we want we need to

27:57
have the human part of getting rid of

27:59
not just automating and and uh creating

28:03
velocity around what sucks. It's

28:05
different.

Balancing Automation and ROI

28:06
Yeah. Well, and it's getting into, okay,

28:08
people are now spending different teams

28:10
assign uh employees like you have $1,000

28:13
a month cap on token cost of what you

28:16
can actually spend and then they're

28:17
spending it and it's like okay, but the

28:18
output is less than what you were doing

28:20
before, but yes, it's automated and so

28:22
there's like that balance that I think

28:24
is going to be key, especially as token

28:25
costs go up over time. So,

28:27
I agree. I agree. Yeah, because I don't

28:29
want my team doing that either. I mean,

28:30
like you said, what's a how do you go

28:32
about this stuff? And one of the first

28:33
things we had to do is figure out

28:34
getting our data in order. what's worth

28:36
it and then getting our tech stack

28:37
aligned because otherwise we were just

28:39
going to be spending money like nobody's

28:41
business and then it's there's no ROI.

28:43
So I I'm a big simplify first and then

28:46
automate what matters.

Common Business Challenges

28:48
Yeah. Uh okay. You go into a lot of

28:50
businesses, conferences, things like

28:52
that to coach and talk with people.

28:54
What's the most common problem outside

28:56
of complexity that you're seeing people

28:59
dealing with right now?

29:01
Decision making. Getting people to make

29:03
decisions. So it's you can um people are

29:07
happy to get rid of work but then all of

29:09
a sudden now it's um they have to make

29:11
decisions about the work. So AI for

29:13
example AI takes care of all the coding

29:16
right now it's they'll do that but you

29:18
need somebody to decide if the code is

29:21
good or not

29:22
and you need someone to make the final

29:24
decision. And we haven't trained people

29:26
because fear is a big deal. We haven't

29:28
been training people. We've been

29:30
investing in technology but not in

29:31
people. Fun fact, um, of AI

29:34
transformation budgets, 9 uh 3% is

29:37
technology and only 7% is invested in

29:39
people.

Investing in People

29:40
And the issue with that is that you've

29:43
got a whole bunch of technology with

29:45
people that don't know how to properly

29:46
use it or are afraid of it. So this is

29:49
an issue. Now all of a sudden AI is

29:51
doing all the work, the code, and I've

29:53
got to be make a decision or have a

29:55
judgment about it. And I haven't been

29:57
trained how to do that. I'm afraid. So,

30:00
I think there's a lot that has to happen

30:02
right now in terms of getting people to

30:04
um be trained and measured and as part

30:09
of their job making decision- making and

30:12
judgment part of their skill set. Again,

30:14
we are not good at it as humans. We're

30:16
drowning in tasks, not in making

30:18
decisions.

Rapidfire Questions

30:20
Wow, that's really good. There's uh

30:23
hopefully there's another book coming on

30:24
that from you uh in the future.

30:27
Let's see. I have so many books in me, I

30:29
just don't want to write them. But

30:30
anyway, yes.

30:31
Okay, I want to finish with 10 rapidfire

30:33
questions where you just say the first

30:35
thing that comes to mind. No wrong

30:36
answer.

30:37
Okay.

30:38
Who's the first person you think of when

30:40
I say servant leadership?

30:43
Oh my god. Servant leadership. You, I

30:47
guess, because you just said it. How's

30:49
that?

30:49
All right. Five words that most describe

30:51
you.

30:53
My gosh. Um, I really like having fun.

30:58
Love that. Uh, favorite author.

31:01
Favorite

31:07
or someone you really enjoy reading.

31:10
Yeah, I know. I was going to say um

31:13
Brooks. I really liked The Social

31:15
Animal. Yeah, that was my f one of my

31:17
favorite books.

31:18
All right. Favorite food.

31:20
Oh my god. Favorite food. That's a

31:22
really good one. Sorry. Chocolate

31:24
mousse.

31:25
Love that. Favorite thing to do in your

31:26
free time?

31:27
Oh my god. Yoga.

31:29
All right. What's a surprising fact

31:31
about Lisa?

31:32
Oh my god. Lisa collects um games.

31:36
Oh, cool. That's super cool.

31:38
I love to collect games. I have all

31:39
kinds of like antique games from the

31:41
1800s to um board games from the 1950s

31:46
to um yeah, a few 3D printed games now.

31:49
I love it. I have them all over my

31:50
house.

31:51
Wow. Okay. What's your favorite game?

31:54
What's my favorite game? Oh my gosh.

31:55
Well, right now it's the New York Times

31:57
spelling bee, but yeah, I it used to be

31:59
I used to get Games magazine, which was

32:01
like a thing, and I was really good at

32:03
um cipher coding. I'm really good at

32:05
deciphering things with words.

32:07
Wow. Favorite place you've been?

32:10
Oh my gosh. Well, my goal is to go to

32:12
every country in the world. My kids have

32:14
each been to 50 and uh yeah I'm

32:17
approaching 70 which isn't that much but

32:19
I but uh favorite place that I've been

32:22
recently it was um Azerbaian.

32:26
Cool. All right. What's some of the best

32:29
advice you've ever received?

32:31
Oh my gosh. Uh it really was to question

32:34
everything. Like don't take everything

32:35
at face value.

Importance of Servant Leadership

32:37
Okay. On this podcast we talk about

32:39
servant leadership. Why should people

32:41
care about being better servant leaders?

32:45
Um, because I think the job of a leader

32:47
isn't just to make people comfortable,

32:49
which is what most people think servant

32:50
leadership is. It's to make people

32:52
capable. And a servant leader isn't just

32:54
making people happy. It's making them um

32:56
grow. And sometimes that means pushing

32:58
them even if you're a servant.

Podcast Closing

33:00
Wow. Well, Lisa, thank you for joining

33:02
the podcast. We're going to link to

33:04
where people can check out the work

33:05
you're doing and hopefully start

33:06
engaging with you more.

33:08
Great. Oh, Chris, it's a pleasure.

33:10
Thanks for having me.

33:12
Thank you for listening to this episode

33:13
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

33:16
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

33:18
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

33:20
below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit

33:24
the notification bell to never miss an

33:26
update. Be sure to check out the

33:27
servantleershippodcast.org

33:29
for more updates and additional bonus

33:31
content.