00:00:00
A why does not always translate to a

00:00:04
successful outcome on a material

00:00:08
measure.

00:00:09
Okay?

00:00:09
A why might have something to do with

00:00:11
the quality of life, not the quantity

00:00:15
that accumulates in life.

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Today on the servant leadership podcast,

00:00:26
we welcome Mark Vincent. Mark is an

00:00:28
executive adviser known for helping

00:00:29
leaders around the world think beyond

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quarterly results and lean into legacy,

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succession, and long-term stewardship.

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He helps leaders define the deeper why

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behind what they do, and recognize

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whether they are truly leaning into

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growth, resisting it, or simply

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pretending to. Join us as we explore how

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to navigate change in a rapidly shifting

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world, and what it means to lead, not

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just with authority, but as a steward

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preparing something to outlast you.

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Mark, thank you for joining us on the

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servant leadership podcast.

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This is a pleasure. I'm glad to do it.

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I I am so excited. Uh you are in an

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interesting position because you're

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advising and coaching leaders all around

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the country and even around the world.

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Um and a lot of people are looking to

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you for wisdom and input. How do you

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even get in a position where so many

00:01:21
people are looking to you for input and

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advice like this?

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You'll have to tell me because I don't

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know. I really don't have an answer.

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I do know that over the years I've

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really tried to be client centered.

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So that that means um maybe I use an

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analogy like of the border collies I've

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owned over the years where their eyes

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are on you. You're their guy. You're

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their person. and what you want they're

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going to do. Not so much to do anything,

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but to do the things that you they are

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kind of, you know, trained to do. And

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but what I'm really getting at here is

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that focus that I'm looking at you and I

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just keep working hard to get better at

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not being distracted of being able to

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take in the person, their room, their

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context with what I have as capacity to

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perceive. So starting out, you know,

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it's listening really, really, really

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well, but it's also watching for it's

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bringing um a pure heart as as pure as I

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can make it. Um a a a readiness to

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engage to enter into that person's

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circumstance

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with a view to where they say they want

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to go.

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So it's not just the person, this person

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says they have a mission. So you're

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holding up that mission a bit. also

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saying you said right this is very but

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you're you're really poised

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on behalf of that person. So the more I

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can do to reduce noise coming into a

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conversation

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or noise that's waiting for me after the

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conversation the better off I am to be

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able to do this. So maybe maybe because

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of that long practice I've gotten a

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little bit better at it than than some.

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But man it's hard work. It's hard work

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to stay focused and disciplined in this

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way. I just find it to be effective and

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I want to be better at it as I go.

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How do you identify the leaders that are

00:03:32
willing to put in the work?

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Um, oh better.

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I like that. Um, so you know, many of us

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need heristic type models, like simple

00:03:43
little rubrics that we can work with.

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And I have found one that really opens

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the door quickly and helps me be able to

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know whether this could be something or

00:03:53
not is a thing where I almost it's

00:03:56
almost like a gauge, you know, with the

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needle going one way or the other. Are

00:03:59
they really leaning in?

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Are they leaning away? Or are they

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pretending to lean in to their learning?

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So, I'm here. I want to be there. I do

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this. I want to be 1% better. Whatever

00:04:12
that is, are they leaning in or are they

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resisting or are they pretending to lean

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in? a lean-in person actually starts

00:04:21
finishing your sentences or you there

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may not be a need to say very much

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because they start talking out loud and

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you have that that safe frame in which

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to do their work and they begin to

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realize what it is that they want to

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work at because they're leaning in and

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they start saying here's what I'm going

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to do even without any advice coming

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from me at all.

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I find you can also be quite effective

00:04:44
with people who are resisting their

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learning because they're honest. They're

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they're telling you what they feel.

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They're telling you why. They're telling

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you what the obstacles are and and all.

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But if you can address them, it often

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kind of changes the fuse box or flips

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the circuit and all of a sudden they're

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leaning in because the obstacles been

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removed that they could see, they could

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define, they could talk about how they

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felt about it.

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A person who is pretending to lean in

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is not in touch with themsself. uh

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they're having some kind of emotional

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reaction or some kind of life tape

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that's really in the way and they'll say

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things like, you know, are there five

00:05:27
books I could read? Uh can you tell me

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more? Is there is there um um uh

00:05:34
somebody else who's done this uh that I

00:05:37
could talk to? And those by themselves

00:05:40
are not bad questions, but when they

00:05:43
start to stack up, you've got a person

00:05:45
who's putting all of their energy to try

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and keep their current place. That's

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where they're comfortable. That's where

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they want to stay. They're not being

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honest with themselves. So, it's tough

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for them to be honest outwardly. And I

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believe I've gotten a little bit better

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at recognizing that earlier on so that I

00:06:05
can name it and invite them to consider

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whether this really is for them to

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pursue or not. On a rare occasion, I've

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had to say, "I I don't think we should

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work together because I don't think

00:06:16
you're really ready to do this." One

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small way, Chris, that I see people play

00:06:21
this game is they treat this kind of

00:06:23
work as if they're accumulating yet one

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more possession. like, "I've got this

00:06:27
coach. I have a coach, too." Uhhuh. You

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know, but it doesn't mean they're

00:06:31
actually leaning into change. Because if

00:06:33
they were leaning into change, they

00:06:35
wouldn't be saying, "I've got one, too."

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They'd be saying, "Oh, man, the work I

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have to do with my coach, you know, or

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or I really we really uncovered a big

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one." Because they're being honest and

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they're talking about what they're

00:06:44
learning as opposed to trying to wear

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some additional set of armor

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uh as they proceed. So that that little

00:06:52
rubric, lean in, resist, pretend to lean

00:06:55
in, is kind of where I start in in a

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conversation with a a person I've not

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worked with previously.

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I love that framework. I've I've never

00:07:02
even thought honestly of the pretending

00:07:05
to lean in and and that's gamechanging

00:07:07
even thinking about that in

00:07:08
conversations that I have about client

00:07:10
work that we do. Uh so that's really

00:07:12
really interesting. When when you get

00:07:14
somebody who's switched on and just

00:07:16
ready to lean in, they're already

00:07:17
leaning in. What does the process look

00:07:20
like that you help people realize that

00:07:24
helps them move further into what they

00:07:26
feel called to do?

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Well, I have a a longstanding and fairly

00:07:32
well- cultivated bias about process

00:07:35
consult consultation.

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So, it's not here's a plan that I bring

00:07:40
to a client. I want the client to

00:07:44
surface what their plan is, why they

00:07:48
care about it, what their learning looks

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like, what done looks like, because

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they're much more likely to own their

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actions. They're going to remember and

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retain uh what it is they're they're

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working on. So, uh I have ways of

00:08:03
surfacing that. I often use why, who,

00:08:06
what, when, where, how. I mean,

00:08:08
repeatedly. I use that if there's a

00:08:11
specific thing they want to work on. So

00:08:12
why does this even matter to you? You

00:08:15
know, and if you're going to work at

00:08:18
this, who all is involved and what roles

00:08:20
do they play? And what does success look

00:08:23
like? What's the criteria for success?

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And is that shared by all of the people

00:08:27
who are going to be touched by this?

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Maybe we should convene a conversation

00:08:30
in a group to make sure we're all

00:08:32
working at it for the same reasons. And

00:08:34
those kinds of things. Then when you get

00:08:36
to when, where, and how, it gets a lot

00:08:37
more granular and very specific. Whereas

00:08:40
the why and the who and the what tends

00:08:42
to be more conceptual and we need that.

00:08:43
We need to know our why in order to get

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to when and how

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and they need to work together. So you

00:08:50
you work at those things. But I want it

00:08:53
to be client centered, client focused,

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client articulated, clientowned. So what

00:08:59
I can bring then are really

00:09:00
well-cultivated questions.

00:09:03
I don't put myself out there as a coach.

00:09:05
I put myself out there as an executive

00:09:06
adviser

00:09:07
so that I can do coaching types of uh I

00:09:12
can bring coaching skills to that when

00:09:15
that's required but there are moments

00:09:16
where we actually have to unlock a

00:09:19
problem together and maybe we have to

00:09:21
change a lens or we have to look at some

00:09:23
sloppy thinking or whatever else but

00:09:26
it's out of those questions and their

00:09:28
responses that I can maybe bring some

00:09:30
perspective

00:09:32
uh as opposed to saying I know stuff

00:09:34
just listen now, let me tell you what to

00:09:36
do. So, I I really don't bring a big uh

00:09:40
structure to it like many coaches might

00:09:43
where the especially if there's a

00:09:45
specific endgame and if there's a

00:09:47
specific endgame and a specific

00:09:48
structure and they match up really well,

00:09:51
man, that coaching relationship is going

00:09:52
to be awesome for that coach E. Uh in in

00:09:56
my case, I want to be working I I I look

00:09:59
for these with someone who's saying,

00:10:00
"Have you ever seen anything like this

00:10:01
before?" And the answer is no.

00:10:04
U because now we're getting at new to

00:10:06
the world stuff. We're getting to this

00:10:08
person's individualized level of

00:10:10
learning their 1% better as I've

00:10:13
mentioned before.

00:10:14
Um and that's that's the space where I

00:10:16
really enjoy the work

00:10:18
when it comes to discovering somebody's

00:10:20
why. People have like you're saying all

00:10:22
kinds of different wise. When you engage

00:10:25
people and are helping them figure out

00:10:27
how to accomplish the why,

00:10:30
it surely can't all be successful,

00:10:32
right? What are some things that get in

00:10:34
the way of the success? Or is it or am I

00:10:37
wrong in that? And most it's like, hey,

00:10:38
no, 100% of the time this is like this

00:10:41
works.

00:10:42
Yeah,

00:10:44
I like the question. I I wanted to to

00:10:47
give a an answer or a response to this

00:10:50
that doesn't wield off into philosophy

00:10:53
and theology into some deep well. Um,

00:10:58
a why does not always translate to a

00:11:03
successful outcome on a material

00:11:07
measure.

00:11:09
Okay. Uh a why might have something to

00:11:12
do with the quality of life, not the

00:11:15
quantity that accumulates in life.

00:11:19
Uh like uh my why is I love my family. I

00:11:22
mean some someone might say I my why is

00:11:24
the wellbeing in my family. In my own

00:11:26
story my why really got focused around I

00:11:30
am doing this so that my wife can die a

00:11:32
peaceful death when the time comes. My

00:11:34
my first wife had cancer for 16 years.

00:11:36
She had 19 occurrences.

00:11:38
uh the the why, the great big noble goal

00:11:41
of life that I would have had when I was

00:11:42
20some changed when I was 30ome because

00:11:46
uh we had this pervasive persistent

00:11:51
never relenting cancer that lasted so

00:11:55
long that it was more than half of our

00:11:56
marriage. Uh it became kind of like the

00:11:59
book of our life rather than just a

00:12:01
chapter of our life. We're raising our

00:12:03
kids, trying to get them through

00:12:05
college, trying to avoid medical

00:12:06
bankruptcy.

00:12:08
you know that becomes a why. Why am I

00:12:10
working so hard in order to avoid worse

00:12:13
pain in this in this case?

00:12:15
Well, that didn't have a whole lot to do

00:12:17
with the material goal or saying we had

00:12:19
a successful business or or anything

00:12:22
along those lines. So, a lot of the why

00:12:26
can go in that direction. And what I'm

00:12:28
after in helping someone begin to

00:12:31
articulate it is to get at this thing

00:12:34
that they feel compelled to do in some

00:12:37
way no matter what the life

00:12:39
circumstances are. This is what they

00:12:41
would do if they were imprisoned. This

00:12:44
is what they would do if they were a

00:12:45
refugee somewhere else. This is what

00:12:48
they would do if their business failed,

00:12:50
especially through no fault of their

00:12:52
own. Because it's their why. It's why

00:12:55
they get up. And to be aware of that in

00:12:59
a as fullest of a definition as you can

00:13:01
get is a significant source of strength

00:13:06
through the es and the flows. It helps

00:13:08
you stay humble when things are going

00:13:10
very very well. It helps you with grit

00:13:14
when they're not.

00:13:15
Wow. I mean even as you talk about that

00:13:18
I feel the depth of the why that you're

00:13:21
talking about is maybe different than

00:13:23
the why that I was thinking of you know

00:13:26
um

00:13:28
how often do you find other leaders when

00:13:30
you're talking about their why does it

00:13:32
start at a certain level and the why is

00:13:33
completely different as you even start

00:13:35
to uncover that before you even are

00:13:37
helping them figure that out.

00:13:40
Um again this is some of that leaning in

00:13:42
and and resisting uh kind of stuff. So

00:13:45
people who are leaning in, I find it's

00:13:47
not too difficult to get to deeper

00:13:52
deepest levels of why because they're a

00:13:54
self-reflective person. They're willing

00:13:56
to consider something. They're willing

00:13:58
to take back a layer of the onion and go

00:14:01
to another degree of why. So why do you

00:14:02
do this work? Well, because uh it's my

00:14:04
job. Well, why is this your job? You

00:14:07
know, why did you take and you you can

00:14:08
get down to some of these deeper things.

00:14:10
Um there are some however who have a

00:14:14
very they they they have an excellent

00:14:17
skill at putting on a role. They they

00:14:21
they put on the clothes of their role.

00:14:23
They put on the voice of their role.

00:14:25
They put on the posture of their role.

00:14:28
When they step out of the role, they're

00:14:30
altogether different. They have become

00:14:33
very adept, very skilled at a

00:14:37
performance to the point that it is

00:14:39
almost who they are but not quite.

00:14:42
And a person like that is often again a

00:14:45
person who is pretending to lean in but

00:14:48
there's something underneath there that

00:14:52
has them afraid or not feeling safe and

00:14:55
so they have to dress this up in order

00:14:57
to carry out their life. I have a lot of

00:15:00
empathy for this. It's not a critique

00:15:02
that I'm just that I'm um describing

00:15:04
here. Um and when that collapses, and it

00:15:09
often does,

00:15:11
uh the why has to be revisited.

00:15:16
Um and when it is, then it often can

00:15:19
give way to something uh more deep, more

00:15:23
integrative. Uh when when you meet

00:15:25
people who compartmentalize their life,

00:15:27
it's often a skill that was learned in

00:15:29
crisis.

00:15:31
a way to triage life, a way to to keep

00:15:33
keep functioning and it's it's it was

00:15:36
effective for them. So, they kept going.

00:15:38
Uh but if it collapses, then we have

00:15:41
some deeper work to do. Well, I would

00:15:43
think especially with younger leaders

00:15:45
and people who are listening, and this

00:15:48
is more of a question, but I I would

00:15:51
think that their why is sometimes

00:15:54
defined by what other people tell them

00:15:57
their why should be or their why is. Um,

00:16:00
and they might have put on this jacket

00:16:03
or put on this

00:16:05
this like coat of this is my why because

00:16:08
of other people and the influence of

00:16:09
friends and other like influencers and

00:16:12
whatnot. Um, how often are you having to

00:16:14
break that down from people or is that

00:16:17
something that yeah, maybe publicly

00:16:19
that's what they do, but deep down they

00:16:20
already know their why?

00:16:22
Yeah, I love this this part of the

00:16:26
conversation, Chris. Um, I'm going to go

00:16:28
again to lean in and lean away or

00:16:30
resist. A person who's leaning into

00:16:32
learning strikes a learning posture at

00:16:34
whatever stage of life they're in. So,

00:16:37
uh, a I often talk about the person

00:16:39
newer in their career, especially if

00:16:41
they have leadership ambitions or

00:16:42
leadership opportunity that they're in

00:16:43
their first turn. They are learning

00:16:46
about themselves or learning about their

00:16:48
capacities. They're going to try some

00:16:49
things. They're going to fail with some

00:16:50
things. Uh, they're going to see where

00:16:52
where they can lead well, where they

00:16:53
don't lead so well. but what what they

00:16:56
do that has other people saying I want

00:16:58
to support that. I want to be a part of

00:16:59
that. Uh versus I I'm not going to

00:17:01
follow you there. Uh they they may have

00:17:03
to have a career restart or a couple of

00:17:06
them or change their career, return to

00:17:08
school as a kind of figure out where

00:17:11
their um greatest joy really does

00:17:15
intersect with the needs of the world.

00:17:17
Now, I didn't make that phrase up.

00:17:19
That's a long-standing one. And I think

00:17:20
it goes back to one of the German

00:17:22
theologians talking about, hey, if

00:17:24
you're trying to figure out vocation,

00:17:26
God's call on your life, something like

00:17:28
that. Where does your greatest joy

00:17:30
intersect with the needs of the world?

00:17:32
Well, we're not born knowing that

00:17:34
immediately. We're going to have to take

00:17:36
some time to figure that out. A person

00:17:37
who's leaning into their learning, uh,

00:17:40
is going to get there, I think, fairly

00:17:42
readily because they're reflecting,

00:17:43
they're discovering, they're

00:17:44
experimenting. a person who has some

00:17:46
resistance to that or some fear and

00:17:49
therefore they're they're trying to game

00:17:51
it maybe a little bit. Often just a few

00:17:53
perceptive questions and the creating of

00:17:56
safety for them on the part of a mentor

00:17:59
or a coach really helps them get into

00:18:01
the place where they can explore that

00:18:04
feel safer and take those next steps. It

00:18:06
can often open the door. It's, I think,

00:18:09
a lot easier to do this with someone

00:18:10
who's in their 20s or early 30s than

00:18:12
someone who's in their 50s

00:18:14
and has resisted up until that time

00:18:16
because there's so it feels like there's

00:18:18
so much more at stake later than there

00:18:22
is earlier on.

00:18:24
What's I know you said everyone's why is

00:18:26
different, but I think some of the

00:18:27
things that you bump into the resistance

00:18:29
that people have might be pretty

00:18:31
similar. So, what is some, and maybe

00:18:33
that's a wrong assumption, but when you

00:18:35
bump into these leaders, what are some

00:18:36
big resistance points or pain points or

00:18:38
hurdles that you see them trying to

00:18:40
overcome that are just like, man, this

00:18:42
is always just a pain point that people

00:18:43
have to work through.

00:18:45
Yeah. I think you're you're touching on

00:18:48
what almost feels like a paradox. Like a

00:18:50
lot of the issues are the same, yet

00:18:52
they're lived out in an individual with

00:18:56
their wiring, their physiology, their

00:19:00
context, the team in which they work,

00:19:02
the family system in which they're

00:19:04
embedded, the other identity points such

00:19:06
as culture, ethnicity, is English their

00:19:08
first or second language, where have

00:19:11
they lived in life, where did they get

00:19:12
their education, are they school, a hard

00:19:14
knock type of a person, you know, what's

00:19:17
their temperament like? All of those

00:19:19
things make

00:19:22
um for a hundred different casserles

00:19:26
uh that are out there and um I know that

00:19:30
we can approach this analytically saying

00:19:32
you know let's figure out your enagram

00:19:35
number let's look at your temperament

00:19:37
type let's look at your MP MPI

00:19:40
u uh what's your disk profile there's a

00:19:42
number of things we can do that give us

00:19:44
some view into that but you again end

00:19:48
end up getting in touch with all of the

00:19:50
nuances.

00:19:51
But when you're in touch with all the

00:19:52
nuances, you can begin to say, "Okay,

00:19:54
then how are we going to work this?"

00:19:55
Like, "Where do you start? What comes

00:19:57
next?" And you can begin to dial in

00:19:59
specific to that person as they connect

00:20:03
in their context. All that being said,

00:20:05
yeah, they could be very afraid,

00:20:08
they could be very insecure, they could

00:20:11
be very prideful and a sense of

00:20:14
competence. I think like some of my own

00:20:16
life story, I just was really well

00:20:19
supported and I had a lot of mentors and

00:20:22
uh I I just believed getting started

00:20:25
that that we were going to get some

00:20:27
great things done. I didn't know what

00:20:29
opposition really looked like. I didn't

00:20:31
know what deception looked like until I

00:20:34
was an adult. I didn't have that in my

00:20:36
childhood. So, in many ways, I was

00:20:38
protected and undamaged. And yet at the

00:20:40
same time there were some hard lessons I

00:20:43
had to learn later. That's a different

00:20:45
story maybe than what you would have

00:20:46
Chris or certainly a different story

00:20:49
than than others that I know who uh I

00:20:51
have a brother-in-law who um grew up

00:20:53
above a tavern

00:20:55
and his family was very broken. And uh

00:20:58
he talks about sleeping with a weapon

00:21:00
under his pillow for self-p protection

00:21:02
because of who might wander upstairs

00:21:04
during the night, you know, and he's a

00:21:06
10-year-old boy. So you know that's

00:21:08
that's a very different story. Uh

00:21:12
although the am I safe? Am I going to

00:21:14
have a meal? Uh am I loved? Am I

00:21:17
accepted? Those are fundamental human

00:21:19
types of questions but the circumstances

00:21:22
make for such unique recipes.

00:21:24
Wow.

00:21:26
That that is that is great perspective

00:21:28
and and I guess I haven't thought of

00:21:30
just the nuances because obviously as

00:21:33
I'm sitting in any experience I've got

00:21:36
my lens on through my filter and I'm

00:21:38
perceiving it like well isn't this just

00:21:40
the way that everyone does it? Um and

00:21:42
isn't this just the way it should be

00:21:44
done?

00:21:45
And and I I think myself for sure and

00:21:48
maybe others as well obviously are also

00:21:51
viewing it with that lens. And uh that's

00:21:53
that's really interesting. Well, one

00:21:56
thing that I know you're working on is

00:21:58
your next book. Talk a little bit about

00:22:01
that and how that came to be.

00:22:04
Sure. Well, the the book that's coming

00:22:06
out, we think it'll be out in April, is

00:22:08
called The Maestro Effect. And it's

00:22:10
about future value and succession and

00:22:13
legacy if you're operating an

00:22:15
enterprise. Um and the subtitle is you

00:22:18
know future value uh succession and

00:22:20
legacy and business. Uh the idea of the

00:22:23
maestro effect is that if you have

00:22:25
served along at the head of a of a

00:22:28
company or head of a nonprofit

00:22:30
organization you've you've had a couple

00:22:32
decades leading that and you want there

00:22:35
to be a growing

00:22:39
more of the mission as you leave. You

00:22:41
want to slingshot a successor into the

00:22:43
future. you you want the continuity of

00:22:46
the business in whatever form that's

00:22:48
going to be uh that you are now

00:22:51
orchestrating. Hence the idea of being a

00:22:53
maestro. You are composing and directing

00:22:57
a number of different facets, many of

00:23:00
which will happen when you're not in the

00:23:02
room and will happen when you're no

00:23:04
longer the main leader. And you yet want

00:23:09
some kind of unified way that that

00:23:12
orchestral voice that that performs well

00:23:16
that goes beyond you and might be under

00:23:20
somebody else's role as the conductor

00:23:22
whereas you were the composer and so how

00:23:25
do you do that and how do you do that

00:23:27
well well in all the work that I've done

00:23:29
across the years and a lot of my clients

00:23:32
are people in that role in that moment

00:23:34
they're thinking three years five years

00:23:36
eight years I won't be in seat anymore.

00:23:38
I want my successor to have the

00:23:40
obstacles removed. I I think more of our

00:23:42
mission is going to require some skills

00:23:44
that I don't have. My role might break

00:23:46
into three or four roles because of the

00:23:48
time I've been in mine and we've grown.

00:23:50
We want to make sure we have the

00:23:52
capacity and the capital in place to

00:23:53
keep this thing going. If they're doing

00:23:55
that kind of work, we discovered there

00:23:57
are four elements, four key elements

00:23:59
that must be paid attention to or it

00:24:02
won't happen. If you pay attention to

00:24:05
all four key elements, it doesn't

00:24:06
guarantee that it will happen well

00:24:08
because there's so many things that are

00:24:09
out of your control. All you have to do

00:24:12
is have a new president say tariffs or

00:24:15
no tariffs or we're changing the whole

00:24:17
tax code or you know uh here comes a

00:24:21
black swan that nobody expected and it

00:24:23
ends your business alto together. I just

00:24:25
read this morning Eddie Bowers filed

00:24:27
bankruptcy and in 2021, what is that

00:24:30
five years ago? They were they were out

00:24:33
off the charts because of people wanting

00:24:35
to buy all this outdoor gear because

00:24:37
COVID was on and everybody was at home

00:24:39
and you wanted to get out and hike and

00:24:41
in a 5-year period it's tanked and so

00:24:43
they're going to be closing a mess of

00:24:45
stores and I think it's still open

00:24:46
whether they'll continue in business or

00:24:49
not. You if you pay attention to these

00:24:51
four key elements it doesn't prevent a

00:24:53
black swan is what I'm trying to say.

00:24:55
But here they are very very quickly. One

00:24:58
is if you can see the end of your role

00:25:02
like I'm going to transition. Your job

00:25:04
has changed. The success measure of your

00:25:07
job has changed. You have a new job. We

00:25:09
need to get that job description clear

00:25:11
because now it's about the handoff, not

00:25:13
just how did we do this year. Secondly,

00:25:17
uh there's a map to get from here to

00:25:19
there. So what's this map that helps you

00:25:22
know that those who are going to be

00:25:24
picking up what you're setting down have

00:25:26
it? I'll use EOS language here. Get it,

00:25:28
want it, can do it,

00:25:30
are able to do it. Um, and then a third

00:25:33
one is a future value balance sheet,

00:25:36
which means you're making sure the

00:25:38
business or the the nonprofit continues

00:25:40
to be capitalized for the future.

00:25:42
There's nothing like walking into a

00:25:45
business that you thought was going

00:25:46
great because look at what the profits

00:25:48
were or look at the the margins we have

00:25:50
and you discover they

Equipment and Team Challenges

25:52
haven't upgraded equipment or um three key members of the

25:57
team all say if the the boss is gone I'm

25:59
gone too and nobody knew that that was

26:01
happening or nobody told you about what

26:03
the pension obligation was going to be

26:05
and now you actually have to go raise

26:06
money or capital to keep operating even

26:09
though you had margin from the year

26:12
before. So, do you have the capital

26:14
structure in place for the business not

26:16
just to continue but to grow?

Leadership Philosophy

26:18
And the last one is if you've been there

26:20
a while, you have a philosophy by which

26:23
you lead. Um, and I've discovered over

26:26
the years that many leaders have not

26:28
brought that to a level of conscious

26:30
articulation.

Successor Challenges

26:32
And so a successor will trip over all

26:36
kinds of invisible suitcases that are

26:38
left lying around if it's not clear how

26:42
things were done, what was underlying a

26:44
lot of the choices that were made. And

26:46
so if it is articulated and visible in

26:50
some fashion and there are great tools

26:52
that help this be done well, um then a

26:56
successor can embrace it. They can amend

26:59
it. They can, you know, add to it. they

27:00
can even set it aside in favor of what's

27:03
needed going forward, but to do so

27:06
consciously with the lights on in the

27:08
room instead of stumbling around in the

27:10
dark. So those four elements uh are are

27:13
things that we have to attend to. And so

27:16
the book is about that. I also tell some

27:18
of my own story of building an

27:20
enterprise and working through my own

27:22
succession story. And we include a

27:24
number of vignettes uh including one of

27:27
someone you're connected to by family

27:28
and that's Pat Burchie. So there's a few

27:31
u uh uh paragraphs in there about his

27:34
story of transitioning up and out of

27:36
running the business daytoday and

27:38
getting a strong general manager in so

27:40
that he could move into what we would

27:42
call his third term.

Excitement for the Book

27:44
Wow. I'm excited to read that. Um when I

27:47
think through that really what you're

27:49
talking about too and I know you have

27:50
experience with this outside of all the

27:52
advising you do uh is this is really

27:56
good stewardship,

Understanding Stewardship

27:58
right? talk about just how you view

28:01
stewardship and and maybe how you see it

28:04
play into the concept of servant

28:06
leadership.

Stewardship Background

28:08
Yeah. Well, the word steward, it's

28:11
really interesting. It has a deep

28:12
religious background. Uh but even before

28:15
that had a bit of a secular uh

28:18
understanding that early Christians

28:20
borrowed. And of late, if you if you

28:23
like search for the word Google uh

28:25
excuse me, Google the word steward, what

28:28
do you get? You're going to find it

28:30
relating a lot to like environmental

28:32
care

Stewardship in Business

28:33
uh or or care of something to which you

28:36
have been entrusted. So what happened in

28:39
the Christian community for so long is

28:41
the word steward started to become much

28:43
more around do you give money to the

28:45
church? Um and that that's what

28:47
stewardship is. But really at its heart,

28:50
stewardship is taking care of something

28:53
on behalf of another. So when one steps

28:57
into a business where they are going to

28:59
serve and put their vocation to work and

29:03
give the time of their career, it's

29:05
really helpful for them to have a sense

29:07
of I'm receiving this from people and I

29:11
will be handing it off to someone else.

29:14
I'm doing it on behalf of those who are

29:16
stakeholders, investors, customers,

29:19
clients, people, the families who depend

29:22
on their income coming from this place.

29:24
I'm working on behalf of that and I'm

29:27
and I'm uh not just serving the mission.

29:30
I am the one who keeps that mission

29:32
alive. So, it's a very specific kind of

29:35
service that we're rendering when we

29:37
call ourselves servant leaders. And so

29:39
there are more of us that would say

29:41
we're doing it as steward leaders. We're

29:44
responsible for the condition of this

29:46
thing when we hand it off and we have an

29:50
accounting

29:51
literally of our work uh that others

29:55
will look at and say he did a great job.

29:58
She did a great job. And why is that? is

30:00
because we offered care for the mission

30:03
and the enterprise and all that

30:05
associated with it to help it continue

30:08
to do more of what that mission is and

30:10
put it into somebody else's hands. So, a

30:12
key part of that stewardship are the

30:14
other leaders that we're cultivating who

30:16
will replace us when we're done.

Leadership Beliefs

30:18
Wow. I love that. One one question I

30:21
have because that's that's quite a

30:23
journey of discovery to even think about

30:25
leadership as in such a stewardship kind

30:28
of way. Are there any leadership beliefs

30:31
that you held early on that you feel

30:34
like fits better into the stewardship

30:35
model that you think maybe listeners

30:37
might be maybe still where you were

30:40
earlier in your career?

Personal Leadership Journey

30:43
Well, the one that comes to mind

30:46
first and foremost may not be everyone's

30:49
experience, but you asked about mine,

30:51
you know, like what belief did you have?

30:52
It's also a little bit delicate. So, I'm

30:54
a white male and I'm also now older than

30:58
I like to think that I am.

31:00
And I came into the workforce as about

31:03
the either, depending how you figure

31:06
this, the youngest baby boomer or the

31:08
oldest Gen Xer. But this is at a time

31:11
where women are very much in the

31:13
workforce now with men. And there is a

31:17
lot more of a sense of we're all genders

31:20
are at work and we have things to do.

31:23
And men began to discover, especially

31:27
men, that they couldn't just function on

31:29
ro authority. Hey, I'm the big cheese.

31:33
Hey, I've got the corner office. Hey,

31:35
I'm the boss. I've got the name plate.

31:38
Therefore, you need to do what I say.

31:40
And men have had to come to terms with

31:44
that. So for me starting out in the

31:47
workforce, I was pretty well aware that

31:50
I was not going to just be awarded a

31:53
role and that I could walk around and

31:55
wear the power suit.

31:57
At the same time, I inherited a lot of

32:00
the privileges that came with that. And

32:04
what I began to realize is that those

32:06
weren't going to hold. And I couldn't

32:09
just say, "Hey, I'm the expert." So, you

32:12
know, just based upon what I know and my

32:14
competency. So, if I can't be a leader

32:18
because I've got the position and I

32:21
can't be the leader because I've got the

32:22
expertise because there's always someone

32:24
who knows something you don't know.

32:27
I had to bring a different approach. I

32:29
had to bring much more of a

32:30
collaborative approach, the ability to

32:33
facilitate well. But when you are

32:35
facilitating well, you are listening and

32:37
perceiving well enough that you can

32:40
restate what others are saying in their

32:44
own words or your own words that they

32:46
say yes. That's it. So, it's about the

32:49
ability to get people to say yes and

32:52
mean it, which comes out of things like

32:55
the ability to listen, the kind of

32:57
character that you bring, your your

32:59
ability to um follow through in what you

33:01
say you will do,

33:03
your ability to apologize. Uh so so

33:07
moving in that direction helped me get

33:10
off of the seat that uh was kind of more

33:15
my father's era and my grandfather's era

33:19
uh and to be able to work with women and

33:21
men and different kinds of cultures and

33:23
different kinds of settings because no

33:26
business is static. It's not going to be

33:28
exactly what it is now three years from

33:30
now and your role won't be exactly the

33:33
same. So, how do you keep leading? Well,

33:36
well, your leadership then can't be

33:37
assigned to the position or the job

33:40
description. It's much more about your

33:42
being

33:44
than your doing at that point.

Adapting to Change

33:46
Wow.

33:48
One question I have even feeding off of

33:50
the kind of the end where you thought of

33:53
um you talked about the speed at which

33:55
things are changing. It feels like

33:57
things are moving faster than ever. You

34:00
know, when you think about AI, when you

34:02
think about industries, full industries

34:04
being talking about disappearing in the

34:06
future, how do you feel like leaders are

34:09
handling that? And is there something

34:12
that leaders who are listening to this

34:14
need to change in their perspective

34:16
related to where you think things might

34:18
be heading in the next 5 to 10 years?

Facing Rapid Change

34:22
Well, let let me touch on two things and

34:25
I don't think this is a comprehensive

34:26
answer. The first one I don't think it's

34:29
just that things are moving faster. I

34:31
think they are moving dimensionally

34:35
faster.

34:36
So, and pervasively

34:38
faster. So, like you think of computing

34:41
power and how much more vast it is than

34:44
the the power of the human brain and how

34:46
we're bringing more of that into what

34:48
we're facing. So, it's not just gosh I

34:51
think things went fast. Where did the

34:52
time go and how much am I having to

34:54
absorb? There's stuff happening and

34:56
changing that you cannot absorb that you

34:58
won't know until after it's changed.

35:02
Uh and it might change. You might not

35:04
know it for years until after it's

35:05
changed because you cannot in your brain

35:08
absorb it all.

35:10
So that's one one way to say the

35:12
problem's bigger than we we might think.

35:15
The other uh issue that humans have is

35:18
that we desperately want things to go

35:21
back to normal.

35:23
whatever normal is. And so we say we'll

35:26
put up with it for now or when things

35:28
get back to normal or when this, you

35:30
know, we've turned the page uh or

35:32
whatever. Um I don't think normal is

35:36
anything other than constant pervasive

35:38
multi-dimensional change like we're

35:40
we're swimming in a river and if we

35:42
don't want to drown, what are we going

35:43
to do?

35:44
So the image that I often use is

35:46
surfing. Um I I'm just back from Hawaii

35:50
in a couple of weeks of boogie boarding.

35:52
I can't surf. I'm I'm dead weight in the

35:54
water, but get me close to shore in some

35:56
big waves. You can thrash me all day

35:57
long. I'll have a great time. But what

35:59
what does this mean? You know, if if I

36:02
try and make the ocean currents stop,

36:06
I'm going to get slammed. I'm going to

36:07
get knocked over. I'm going to drown in

36:09
it. If I say, uh, there's no point, then

36:14
I never get in the water. I I I don't

36:16
bring any impact. I don't make anything

36:18
happen. But if I surf and I'm tethered

36:22
to my board, well tethered to my board,

36:24
I can get knocked off of it and I can

36:25
get back on.

36:26
I can give it a try, have a thrill,

36:29
however it ends, you know, great ride

36:31
all the way into the sea or I choose to

36:33
step off and swim back or I get knocked

36:35
off. I can always get back on and try

36:37
again and go again because what I am is

36:41
in is the current. And being in the

36:43
current, what am I going to do? So the

36:45
question is, what does it what does it

36:46
mean to be on that board?

Lifelong Learning

36:49
And I would say that lifelong learning

36:50
posture, the ability to do

36:52
self-reflection, the ability to have a

36:55
grounding center from which you view the

36:58
things coming at you that helps you

37:00
discern and make choices that matters.

37:03
And so now you're back to the

37:04
conversation with that leader about

37:07
what's your center. M

37:09
what is it from the point from which you

37:12
navigate and perceive things that helps

37:15
you modulate with the changes of life

37:17
without losing your way without losing

37:19
your character without losing your hope

37:21
you know so we we need to work at at

37:24
that basis so I I think if we can start

37:26
from the fact that yeah it's rapid and

37:29
it's going to get faster still so how

37:31
are you going to be in that stream and

37:34
lead well now we can talk about their

37:36
center how they strike balance

37:39
and then they can begin to get some

37:41
handles.

Visualizing Leadership

37:42
Yeah, I love I love your visuals. Like

37:45
even just thinking about the waves like

37:47
are you going to jump in? Are you going

37:48
to stay out? Are you going to let them

37:50
crash? Are you going to figure it out?

37:51
Like just that that's such a good

37:53
visual. Um man, I I want to finish this

37:56
with 10 rapid fire questions or I'm just

37:59
going to throw things at you and you say

38:02
the first thing that comes to mind.

38:03
There's no right or wrong.

Rapid Fire Questions

38:04
All right. All right. And I'll try not

38:05
to to give any context or explain. I'll

38:07
just answer.

38:08
Love it. Who's the first person you

38:10
think of when I say servant leadership?

38:16
I think of Bill Cloffenstein, a key

38:18
mentor of mine. He was many, many, many

38:20
years ago. Was the president for

38:22
Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Company, a

38:24
property and casualty company. Attended

38:26
church with him. He was an old man. I'm

38:28
a young man. And he was, "Mark, God has

38:31
his hand on your life. I hope you're

38:33
listening. I pray for you every morning

38:34
at breakfast." And he kept doing that

38:36
like a drum beat in my life all

38:38
throughout my teen years. Guy could have

38:40
retired anywhere. He had the money. He

38:42
stayed in his local church. He sought

38:45
out young people like me and invested in

38:47
them.

Describing Mark Vincent

38:47
Wow. Five words that most describe you.

38:55
Independent,

38:57
bearded,

39:00
bald, and I'll stop with the physical

39:01
things. Um

39:04
um reflective

39:08
um

39:10
one more. Um focused.

Favorite Book

39:14
All right. Favorite book or author?

39:18
There's several, but I I always end up

39:20
with EF Schumacher and his book Small is

39:23
Beautiful. Uh British economist.

39:25
Um a very very wise man.

Favorite Food

39:30
Favorite food?

39:35
I can no longer eat my favorite food

39:37
because I I have um an allergy to wheat

39:41
and gluten,

39:42
but a good fresh apple fritter.

Free Time Activities

39:46
All right. Favorite thing to do in your

39:47
free time?

39:50
Uh read and walk around.

Surprising Fact

39:53
All right. What's a surprising fact

39:55
about you?

39:57
Um, many people don't know that uh I

40:00
learned to play the auto harp when I was

40:02
self-taught when I was in high school

40:05
and don't play it very much anymore, but

40:07
my auto harp is the same one that

40:10
Roseanne Cash used to play when Johnny

40:12
and Roseanne and others used to do their

40:15
concerts.

Favorite Place

40:15
That's super cool. Um, wow. Okay.

40:19
Favorite place you've been?

40:22
Scotland, especially the far north.

Dream Destination

40:25
anywhere in the world you want to go

40:26
that you have not been?

40:29
I always joke that someday I'm going to

40:31
go to Tahiti.

Best Advice Received

40:33
All right. What's the best advice you've

40:35
ever received?

40:38
Um yeah, I was a young leader turn one

40:41
maybe starting to move into turn two

40:43
where I'm running a whole organization

40:45
and I got I got into a corner in front

40:49
of a very large audience and did not

40:51
respond in a way that was helpful

40:54
and the chair of the board sat me down

40:57
very kindly

41:00
and said these words that I've repeated

41:02
to many other people and they found it

41:04
helpful as well. So, I think I'm doing

41:06
this on the evidence that it's helpful.

41:08
Um, but he said, "Mark,

41:11
you've got to grow an alligator hide and

41:14
keep a soft heart."

Importance of Servant Leadership

41:17
Wow, that's good advice. Um, all right.

41:20
And finally, this is a podcast on

41:22
servant leadership. Why do you feel like

41:24
it's important for people to become

41:27
better servant leaders?

Final Thoughts

41:32
Um, the alternatives are pretty crappy.

41:36
That's good. I like that. Um, well,

41:39
Mark, thank you so much. Uh, your

41:42
wisdom, your visuals have just been

41:44
unbelievable, I think, and people are

41:45
really going to be blessed by what you

41:47
shared today. So, thank you for coming

41:49
on the podcast.

41:50
Well, this has been a delight, Chris,

41:52
and I really wish you well as you

41:53
continue to um put this kind of message

41:55
out there and and do these interviews

41:57
with people.

Podcast Closing

41:57
Thank you for listening to this episode

41:59
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

42:02
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

42:04
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

42:06
below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit

42:10
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42:12
update. Be sure to check out the

42:13
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42:15
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42:17
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