PJ Huizenga's Intro

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today on the servant leadership podcast we're thrilled to welcome PJ haena PJ's

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story is deeply rooted in a multi-generational legacy of entrepreneurial grit and vision his

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great-grandfather began a waste collection business that grew into Waste Management now the largest Waste

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Disposal Company in the world his family's Legacy also includes early investments in companies like

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Blockbuster Video and many other well-known Brands building on this remarkable Heritage PJ leads their

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family office with a focus on stewarding resources wisely investing in cuttingedge Industries like Tech and

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biotech and mentoring Future Leaders in this episode PJ shares how his family's

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values have shaped his approach to leadership why servant leadership is integral to his work and how to help

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Foster growth in mission-driven leaders join us for this compelling conversation with PJ as we explore life in a family

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office and how to leave a lasting Legacy while serving others with purpose well PJ thank you for being on

Welcome PJ Huizenga

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the podcast yeah thanks for having me I'm super excited uh because I only started getting to know you a few months

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ago yeah so I'm excited to get to know you better and have other people start hearing some of your story too yeah tell

PJ's Career Journey

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us kind of a little bit of your career Journey how you got to where you are and some of the background behind everything

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you have going on here I went to Hope College I played uh soccer accounting

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major there I went to Arthur Anderson uh I had interned at Arthur Anderson I

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decided I never wanted to do another day of audit in my life on my exit interview they gave me a full-time offer $37,500

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huge amount of money and uh I said I I love the firm and I love the culture but

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I don't want to do another day of audit in my life so they asked what kind of work would I like to do and I said I

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really want to understand how to Value businesses and work with companies uh and really dive into the cash flows and

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they said we have a fastest growing group at our firm is called the transaction advisory Services Group we'd

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love to have you join it um and I did and so I worked for Arthur Anderson for about four years uh and I knew I didn't

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want to be a partner there uh our family had a family office here uh that invested in private companies and I

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thought I could take my skill set here and uh so I started here in late 2001 wow so you you have the term family

What Is A "Family Office"?

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office yeah to some of the listeners they have no idea what that is so explain what a family office offes uh

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family offices have become very common these days if you have a liquidity event and you wonder what you're going to do

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with your money in the past you just Outsource your Capital uh you'd give it to a bank and they'd manage it um but

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people started asking questions like well how much are you investing side by side in what you're telling me to invest

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in or what are the fees you're charging and uh they said you know maybe I hire

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my own team to do everything on my own and not to say it's exclusive to do it on your own but uh that's the core of

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what we do so we have 18 people that work here we invest in every asset class we're very

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opportunistic um and so uh every day uh could be something new that you're

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taking a look at but for the most part we look at Tech and biotech hedge funds

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Venture funds how how did you guys get in the position where you could even start a family office where you had that

The Family Business - Waste Management

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liquidity event what what was that yeah we're long uh multi-generational garbage men um and so my great-grandfather came

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here in 1893 for the World's Fair uh didn't want to work for anyone didn't want to work on Sunday started going

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door Todo asking people can I pick up your garbage and that was Dependable you got paid every week and if they didn't

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pay you you left the garbage on their front lawn uh and so uh it was

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generational business my father and my uncles uh were uh at the company

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and decided to take it to the next level can you do it in multiple States uh can you start to grow they were almost

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acquired by the 800B gorilla which Browning Ferris which showed them the

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Playbook uh on the rollup strategy and they decided we could beat them at that game so uh I'm very blessed uh my my

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family started and created Waste Management um the largest garbage company in the world and then early

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investor in Blockbuster videoo wow so that puts you in a position of a little

Leading In A Family Business

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bit of pressure coming in and trying to manage what your family's already created before you and you're coming in

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and now trying to figure out what should we do uh I'm sure it's not easy working with family what did that look like this

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process of you coming on board the family office and actually starting to take control of doing things yeah it's

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um it's a platform right so you could look at it as pressure or you could look at it as you've been given a platform to

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do something and and uh you have to be a steward of it and you have to guide it

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um when I came here uh I I joined about a year after my brother-in-law um and it was great as

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having him as a mentor having my father as a mentor um and uh having a buffer in

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between my father and I uh at first is you're learning and as you start to work

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together um you know having a full investment team uh the you know the buck uh stops with

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you know the family who's making the decision but we have wise people around us helping

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navigate uh different Landscapes that we see different opportunities that we see so people are probably always pitching

Deciding What To Invest In

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you things are throwing deals across your desk what does that look like what's the process of we've never heard

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of this opportunity to now there's an opportunity to now we decide we want to get into it yeah so our bar is very high

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we may do one to three direct Investments a year we may do uh a

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handful of new hedge funds a year uh maybe a new Venture fund maybe not um

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and it's pattern recognition so having done it for almost you know well over 20 years uh you start to see things that

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landmines you've stepped on in the past or if we didn't do it we saw somebody else do it and so uh high quality

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businesses um we have seen uh in in high quality people you want to do business

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my my father loved quoting the old Richard Daly uh who said we don't want to do nobody nobody didn't business with

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nobody nobody didn't send um it's kind of a screen um how do you our first

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question is who's bringing us the opportunity why are we so fortunate to be seeing the opportunity because if it

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was really good chances are they'd bring it to somebody who they were closer to and then who are the people behind it uh

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who's the CEO because we've seen a average CEO destroy a great business and

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we've seen an amazing CEO Salvage a decent business and really make

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something out of it and so from our standpoint it's uh is it a highquality business with high quality uh leadership

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in high quality Capital going into it and so that right there probably

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eliminates 80% of what we see um and then the rest of it you have to do work on it and is it a fad is it uh does it

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really generate cash flow or is it like a mirage uh and so we've got to wrap our

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mind around that and that's what we spend our time doing so you talk about the importance of leadership and we talk

Importance Of Servant Leadership

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a lot about servant leadership how do you see servant leadership playing Out Among people you're talking to about

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opportunities with and and how important is it yeah it is it is everything the

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best leaders we've seen uh lead with example it's you know it's like I heard

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this on your family uh values are caught they're not taught you can't tell your kids something and do something else the

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CEOs that we've seen or the hedge fund managers that we've seen or the Venture fund managers that we've seen that are

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most successful have an internal ego uh they serve their employees uh they're

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collaborative they work well and uh they understand when the data changes

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change your mind um and you don't you're not headstrong into thinking my idea is

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the best um because that burns out your teams yeah as you're thinking through uh

Senior Leadership vs. The Operating Team

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does this leader have what it takes to lead well so much falls on that leader yeah how much does their operating team

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and the rest of their team matter or does it really focus on on the main person it does but it all starts with

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the leader because it's they who will pick their team and so we really try to

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get to know the senior person at the firm what makes them tick what is their key motivator um if it's money chances

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are we don't want to invest um if they have a passion for what they're doing and if they see an opportunity in the

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market to really make a difference and maybe they make money maybe they don't but it's a way to keep score those are

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the type of people we want to bet on so as as you're looking at these

Hands-On Versus Hands-Off Approach

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businesses looking at their teams uh how involved once you I would imagine once

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you put money in you want to be heavily involved are you more family offices in general do you find are they more hands

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on hands off what's the approach or does it change you will never find two family offices that are the same okay um we

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were an operating business for a long time uh if you're going to put all of your time into one company you should

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align that with your asset allocation so uh if you're putting all your time into a business have your money in the

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business um from our standpoint we exited that operating business we have a

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broader portfolio now with multiple Investments and uh so we don't want to

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pour all of our time into one of the companies um and so our model is we

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really partner with uh industry experts we're great generalists we've seen

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everything at least once or twice um but we want industry experts to partner with

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who've lived through everything multiple times and who are going to sweat it um I don't want to have to worry about

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finding a new CEO and we've had to do that in the past um but that's not our

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ideal role we want to be strategic Capital we want to help people grow um but we don't want to have to tell you

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how to do your business I know a lot of these deals that get thrown into your

Interacting With Other Financial Partners

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hands uh there's lots of people going in on the deals you're not the only office in them how does that complicate things

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working with other family offices working with other investors is that good is that bad you

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know we don't really interact a lot with other people whether it's at a hedge

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fund or on the cap table um but you want to make sure that they have good um

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Partners um who are going to be there uh in a crisis so we had we had money

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with a a hedge fund that focused on Russia and in 2009 Russian Market sold

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off significantly uh their deepest investor was a endowment uh one of the largest

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endowments in the world and we thought that was going to be a great partner well that endowment pulled the cord and

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said they're shutting down the fund uh that's not something we would have expected it it was at that time you want

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to lean in and buy really really cheap assets um and so figuring out who your

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partners are is important uh We've we've learned from that um but oftentimes we

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can't control it it's just part of our diligence process you might not be able to name company names but what are the

Key Industries For Investment

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types of Industries what are the types of things the people uh you invest in do

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we invest in all kinds of tech and biotech companies predominantly tech

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companies um and so uh you know we just invested in a company called cruso um

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it's the intersection of AI and energy um where it was a former Bitcoin miner

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uh who realized you can harness stranded energy um to power it was Bitcoin mining

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but now it's Ai and data centers um there's a real need there with Microsoft

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and AWS and you know the big five all spending about $200 billion in cap a to

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build out their AI War chest um there's a huge opportunity there I don't believe

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AI is a fad um so that's an industry where it it in with that company it's it

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sits right at the intersection of providing clean power um cheaper version

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of power uh and you're playing the picks and shovels of AI uh with a great CEO

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we've known for a long time uh and and some great partners how do you enter a deal like that where

Educating Yourself On A Potential Company

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uh just as you're talking about I'm like there's probably so much that goes into that that you before those conversations

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weren't an expert on and and I don't know if you feel like an expert now or you feel midlevel now or where you feel

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on that level but how do you educate yourself on something when somebody's excited about the vision they're

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pitching the world to you yeah and the opportunity and you're like I don't know about this industry yeah just at a high

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level not company specific but you first ask yourself what's the 50,000 foot View

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and do we believe the industry if we invested and we had to be invested for

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15 years would it be bigger or smaller in 15 years and and then we go out to

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our industry Partners so our relationship at hedge funds or Venture funds and we talked to them about the

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sector uh what do you know about the sector what can you tell us about the sector the competitive landscape um

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because that really drives we had a manager we were looking at investing in a cloud company back in

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2012 and uh we reached out to one of our Venture funds and he's like listen he

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goes look at how much cash flow actually falls to the bottom line because I bet

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they're investing every single dollar into growth and the trick is going to be

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uh will they ever generate cash because the faster they grow the more capx they're going to have and at some point

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the big boys are going to give it away to keep their data stuck on the ecosystem they were spot on so that

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quick phone call saved us a lot of work but we'll we'll get access to the data

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room typically we'll go through all the company's information we'll have management calls um to really try to

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wrap our mind around it but we only get that far with probably you know five

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maybe 10 Investments a year and then we may get we may one of those may cross our Finish Line yeah I mean as as you're

Size of Potential Investment Opportunities

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thinking through this and as people are listening to this there uh the size of deal I know differs a lot some of these

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companies when they come to you what size do you think on average they are it is across the board I mean we have uh

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seated companies uh at $50 million valuation and then we've invested in

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late stage growth companies that have been valued you know 30 to 50 billion um

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it our our biggest question is is what's the upside what's the downside um and if this is

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successful uh how does it play out if it's not successful is there any salvage value we size it accordingly um based on

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that upside downside ratio um but if you're investing in a high quality

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business with great partners and a great CEO uh you just got to be patient

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because what one of the things we've learned is things always take a little longer than you'd expect you people will

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tell you oh we're going to take it public in three to four years that's probably going to be six to seven years

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um and then you probably don't want to sell it right away because uh short sellers are hitting it or early

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investors are exiting so there's a uh digestion period where you probably have

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to wait a couple years after that so you just have to be very patient how do you help continue to build into leaders as

Keeping The Passion Alive

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as they go through that experience maybe they think they're public in 3 to 4 years and really it's going to look like s to8 years how do you help uh keep the

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passion alive and keep them pushing for the end goal yeah no most of our most of

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our entrepreneurs are they understand the marketplace and uh everyone's got a

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hockey stick projection up up and to the right um but they know the reality and if they if they can execute on their

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plan it can happen sooner than later but that's always the magic plan right right and and the the the plan that they're

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mentally banking on is it's going to be a grind but we see an opportunity between here and there you know we don't

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um we don't try to tell people our thoughts in terms of like what they can

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achieve um because we're hopeful that they're going to exceed our expectations um and in many cases that's

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been right in many cases it's been wrong um but uh one of the and that's one of the things we've learned which which is

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like we know so much and you can't extrapolate that on others yeah one of

Family Office Risk Strategy

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the things that I think people might presume about family offices is that they've had that big liquidity event and

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then the goal is to make the money last as long as possible and at some point it

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Fizzles away and goes into nothing yeah um my perception of a family office is

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almost quite the opposite you've had the liquidity event and it's how much can we grow this over time and to think through

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growth is which is right or is there some in between it it it really is uh

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the family office that does the first follows into that short sleeve to short

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sleeve in three generations because you have taxes and uh you have a headcount

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uh so each generation if they have multiple kids you're in theory dividing that asset based by Moree heads um and

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uh taxes are real so you have to plan accordingly with your taxes um and you

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cannot stop being an entrepreneur you can't stop taking risk um and you don't

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want to take undo risk because the law of losses is real a zero uh is really

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hard to come back from um if if it's sized incorrectly and so from our

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standpoint uh we have been um we we build our portfolio with a kind of sleep

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well at night bucket but we also take risk on the other side um because that's

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really where the growth is going to come from and if you make you know if if you

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take a endowment esque return or a raes return of 6 and a half

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7% um with inflation and with taxes

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you're not going to be growing the asset base so you have to be achieving higher rates of return than that um and some

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people don't need to and some people don't care put it all into treasuries and that'll that'll give you a lot of

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burn rate for a long period of time but um we like to stay active because every

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day you come across uh incredible people with brilliant ideas uh that are out

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there to change the world and we get to sit in the front row and see where we want to

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participate at at some level uh the company is doing well or the family

Philanthropy Approach

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office is doing well and you start thinking personally and maybe others in your family and others at the office

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about philanthropy and what that looks like how do you think people should be thinking about philanthropy that have

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these liquidity events and and family offices in general yeah even before you

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have a liquidity event um our upbringing kind of Dutch

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calvinistic uh upbringing is you have to be very charitable um

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even if you don't have a lot you have some you should be giving um and so that

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starts out with our mindset very early in life and we've taught our kids that and I was trained that way um and so

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giving is a part of living and uh the the the hard part becomes there's so

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many great organizations uh that you want to help that's where it's like okay I'm stretching because I want to help all of

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them and we go back and forth let's consolidate let's give more significant

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dollars to fewer number of organizations but then you look around you're like well who am I going to cut out and so

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over time you're giving Partners grow how do you think that people who want to

Appropriate Servant Leadership Perspective On Philanthropy

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be better servant leaders in general who are listening to this should think about their own

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philanthropy if you're not giving of yourself sacrificially of your time or

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of your treasure it's going to be very hard for you to find satisfaction in

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life if you are living a life centered on yourself um and centered on uh your

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own um enjoyment you're never going to feel a

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sense of satisfaction um there very famous song uh written by Keith Richards uh when he

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was having a nightmare because he could not not get any satisfaction wow he

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actually told me that story it was pretty neat really wow that's super cool well as as people think through how they

Practical Steps To Become A Better Servant Leader

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can grow as better servant leaders what do you think are some practical things that you have done in your life to

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become a better servant leader and I preface this because one of the uh one

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of the people who I respect most in the world is the one that introduced me to you yeah um Tom Cole Tom Cole and

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and I think he was an amazing servant leader yeah um and he spoke high so

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highly of you more than anyone else I've heard him talk about so I would love to hear like what are the practical steps

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that help people become better servant leaders uh well for me it's acknowledging I'm not the perfect

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servant leader I want to be and every year I try to get

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better uh you know we do 360 feedback we I just led a group of 15 guys down to

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Honduras on a mission trip and right afterward uh did a Google drop um I want

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feedback here's 15 questions take some time how can we do it better how can we make it more impactful um got some great

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feedback um okay we're going to implement that next time I don't know all the answers but I know I can improve

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and I'm very candid about that with people I'm going to try my best um but I need feedback so here at our firm we do

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360 Fe feedback where we get Anonymous feedback from everybody uh I I lead a

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group called Men's Fraternity um we do feedback at the end of the year how can we make it better

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it's because of that feedback we've gotten such great traction with it um and so I uh I look at my life as just

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trying to compilate uh just build up other people's great ideas and if I can

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mirror many of them I will get uh I'll look back at my life and be like wow I

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achieved what I want to achieve which is I'm far better off than where I was in the past in terms of who I am physically

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mentally spiritually or emotionally one of the things just from observing that I've seen you do is

Investing In Other Leaders

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really invest in other leaders whether or not it's here at the family office whether or not it's at Men's Fraternity

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uh you seem to have a high value on making other leaders better why do you

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think that's so important it's critical for people for especially

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I believe men don't know what their calling is in life right now they're feeling confused and I think when you

25:11
have men step out of society and check out um there's a leadership Earth and

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I'm not I have three daughters and I have a very awesome wife nothing disparaging against women um and I've

25:24
got an amazing mother um but we need men to leave we need men to lead their

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families we need men to lead um in their homes um and uh we need men to show up

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uh with school boards and we need men to show up in churches and to lead their

25:45
churches because when you have men check out Society gets chaotic um and so if I

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can help um make our community better and stronger if I can help you make your

25:59
family stronger um by doing that it

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makes me stronger with my family because everything I'm like when I we bring in

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speakers to talk I'm I'm sitting in the front row taking notes and it's like why

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aren't I doing that why aren't I doing that I can do that better uh you know we had a speaker earlier in the year like

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remind us like how often are you dating your wife I'm like that's right I need to be taking my wife on regular dates so

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that you know when your last child leaves the house um you're engaged and

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so if we can have a community of people who are intentional about being a leader

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and being a servant leader and getting feedback and trying to make um the

26:50
environment that they're they have influence in better or I mean society

26:56
would just continue to take off yeah I think one of the things that people underestimate is their sphere of

Impacting Your Sphere Of Influence

27:03
influence um I think people often are looking to do totally right the biggest thing is but not willing to do what's

27:11
right in their Inner Circle um I was doing an interview with somebody who was talking about how do you make the

27:17
largest difference for the nation and they said start with your own family yeah then start with your neighborhood

27:22
and keep going how do you view all of that no you're spot on I mean my wife

27:28
was like one of these bell ringing moments where she said you know you'll never miss a business meeting but how

27:33
many times have you missed or been late for a family dinner and uh I'm like

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you're right she goes put it in your calendar three days a week put it in your calendar treat it like some like

27:44
you're right I'll do that so made a point to make it home for dinner three

27:49
days a week uh it makes a difference your kids notice that and I'm modeling

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for them what I expect of them you know I never know where the wisdom is going

28:00
to hit me from but if I if I stay alert to it uh I can learn from it it's you

28:07
know it's like law of compounding if you can compound at 5% a year I think it's

28:12
about the the in 50 years you'll be 11 and a half times better but if you can

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compound at 8% a year and improve what you do at 8% a year it's like 47 times

28:25
better in 50 years so it's like if I can just just be in that range and just

28:30
continue to take best ideas from you best ideas from Tom Cole uh my

28:36
brother-in-law has given me a lot of wisdom my father was my mentor and gave me a ton of wisdom my mom's given me a

28:41
great wisdom I've got a wife who like speaks truth into me on a regular basis

28:47
um okay even if you disagree there's got to be something there uh they love you

28:54
they're giving you feedback for a reason think about it and embrace it H you've had the opportunity to work

Maintaining Family Relationships

29:01
with your brother-in-law you've had the opportunity to work with your dad yeah uh what's it like working with family so

29:08
closely just the good and the bad or is it always just perfect no you're equally

29:13
yolked so you have the same goal and so when you start with that premise um and

29:19
you know you want to go to the same destination uh you're fully aligned and

29:25
that's amazing now like any Mar Mar or relationship it's really a marriage you

29:31
step on each other's toes and you have to be able to work through that and to

29:36
say hey um you know I was hurt when or

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uh you know I did this and I wasn't the best when I handled it this way um and

29:48
you've just got to be open and Frank that I want a better relationship whether that's with my wife whether

29:54
that's uh what was with my father when he was still alive live whether that's with my brother-in-law or any of our

30:00
employees I may step on your toes but please let me know what I do so I can learn from it um because I don't like I

30:08
don't want to upset you and we've got a great thing going and if we just work a

30:14
little better all the time just think where we'll be in a decade or 20 years

30:19
from now yeah you talk about that compounding growth and a lot of it comes from feedback from others are there

Compounding Your Personal Growth

30:25
other things that you look to do each year that really help compound your growth yeah so I break it out into those

30:33
categories I mentioned earlier physically mentally spiritually emotionally and socially um so

30:38
physically I try to work out three days a week um I had a friend uh challenged

30:44
me uh I was putting on a lot of weight and I was Consulting and I was going to

30:49
business school and I had a I just had my first kid and he's like listen like

30:55
you're not going to the gym and I'm like I don't have time he goes everyone's got 24 hours how are you going to spend it

31:00
what do you prioritize and if you don't take care of yourself you're not going to be effective long term um I had

31:07
somebody else tell me about uh Peter aa's book outlive um reverse engineer

31:13
where do you want to be when you're 90 like do you want to be an active Grandpa uh or do you want to be stuck in a

31:18
wheelchair and so reverse engineer what do you how do you get to that point um

31:23
so that would be physically uh mentally I can learn a lot from people who've

31:29
lived before me and so who am I going to read about um so I've read many of the

31:35
founders of this nation or any of the great world leaders going back thousands of years uh I um I read my Bible because

31:43
I view that as the owner's manual uh there's a lot of wisdom in that I'll try to read that 20 25 minutes three days a

31:51
week um so that would be the mental component and tapping into the spiritual

31:57
physically mentally spiritually I'm in a small group with my wife so we've got a

32:02
coup's group about five couples that get together um to discuss um whether it's

32:08
our marriage or our faith go through different books um that's grounding me

32:14
uh it's expanding my mind spiritually uh when we get into uh spiritual like

32:21
topics um I I take my family to church um it's a discipline like yes you can

32:28
watch Church uh on your phone you don't even have to go it's a physical discipline um

32:37
reading is a discipline um reading your Bible is a discipline working out like

32:43
all the stuff happens before my kids are up because with four kids uh if I want

32:48
to get anything done it has to happen before they're awake uh I can't do it

32:54
after work and uh that got into one of you know Bill iable wrote this uh part

32:59
called simplify um but if you want to get anything done uh you have to do it

33:05
and your day actually starts the night before and so I tend to go to bed

33:10
earlier because I'm going to wake up early and if I if I'm up late or if I'm having cocktails I'm not going to be

33:17
able to get up and get this stuff done so the physical mental spiritual emotionally uh if I'm working out uh if

33:25
I'm investing time in my faith and if I'm getting sleep I'm in a much

33:32
better emotional spot to deal with when you step on my toes or uh when things

33:39
are going bad you know I had a cancer diagnosis earlier this year um I was in

33:44
a good spot I was rooted um and I wasn't phased by it and then um part of the

33:51
emotional is having a group of friends um and making an effort to to get

33:58
together with friends and so you know it's not like I go sit at the bar on a Saturday but um I'll check in with guys

34:06
uh we'll grab dinners together uh we'll go on a golf trip or a ski trip um and

34:11
guys need to be connected you need to be serving you need to be giving um in

34:17
order to have that balance and if you're out of balance and I've seen many people get out of balance if you spend too much

34:23
time with your family you're going to get fired and if you spend too much time at work you're going to get divorced and

34:29
so you have to bridge that Gap and be involved in your community be involved

34:34
with your kids be involved with your wife be involved with your work um but it takes a lot of effort and

34:42
sacrifice um and that kind of gets into that bill hiel or uh this uh Robert Lewis the Paradox principle you've got

34:49
to give a little bit up of yourself in order to gain a lot yeah so if you sacrifice like yeah sure I want to go

34:56
out every night but if if I do that like the rest of my life's going to blow up um and so you've got to make sacrifices

35:03
in order to get the full benefit of life this is so good I want to hit you

10 Rapid-Fire Questions

35:08
with 10 rapid fire questions and uh there's no right or wrong so go wherever you want with these but first one who is

35:16
the first person you think of when I say servant leadership uh Chuck Coulson prison

35:21
fellowship oh wow that's good um five words the most describe yourself

35:28
um hardworking disciplined um can be

35:33
emotional uh uh I care um and fun favorite author or

35:43
book um boy I love the Elan musk book uh

35:48
yeah I love the Bible I've gotten a lot out of both of them favorite

35:55
movie uh it's hard to beat Gladiator the original there's a second one coming out

36:01
yeah I don't it's I think it's got too much 3D in it favorite food uh favorite

36:07
food black and salmon favorite movie or no that's what you just said uh with favorite thing to doing your free time

36:15
um boy uh spend time with family or ski or

36:22
golf surprising fact about you uh I was on The Bozo Show Grand priz game when I

36:28
was four years old no way yeah that's crazy and I speak Dutch both of those are crazy all right

36:34
where's your favorite place you've been um favorite place I've

36:40
been uh on the top of Lone Mountain with a couple feet of snow and nobody in

36:47
front of me all right where's somewhere you want to go that you have not

36:52
been um probably the Greek Islands

36:58
okay and finally what's the best advice you've ever gotten well there's there's the one that

37:05
jumps out in my mind which was uh Ronnie Dangerfield and back to school watch out for number one but don't step in number

37:12
two uh it's it it would be listen to people and be flexible minded to Pivot

37:21
when you need to Pivot and uh seek wisdom that's awesome advice well thank

Closing

37:27
you for being on the podcast I really appreciate you taking your time yeah thank you I appreciate it thank you for

37:32
listening to this episode of the servant leadership podcast if you enjoyed what you heard please give it a thumbs up and

37:39
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37:44
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