Rick Dunham's Perspective on Tithing

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I get myself in such trouble and I'm

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sure people listening to this will get

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mad at me, but I honestly don't believe

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in the tithe because God God doesn't

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want a 10% tip and then have us do

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whatever else we want.

Introduction to Rick Dunham

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God's in God's economy in New Testament,

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it's 100%. It's everything.

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Everything.

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Today on the servant leadership podcast,

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we welcome Rick Dunham, the founder of

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Dunaman Company. For more than 20 years,

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Rick has led Dunaman Company, one of the

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most respected fundraising and strategic

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consulting [music] firms in the world.

Rick's Impact and Authorship

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The work Rick and his team have done has

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helped ministries impact hundreds of

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millions of people globally. Rick is the

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author of If God Will Provide, Why Do We

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Have to Ask for Money? [music] and is

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widely recognized as a leading voice on

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biblical generosity, datadriven

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fundraising, and long-term [music]

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ministry growth. Join us as Rick shares

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the heart behind biblical generosity,

Rick's Biblical Generosity

1:00
[music] the changing landscape of

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nonprofit giving, leading and releasing

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through seasons, and Rick's uniquely

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biblical perspective on what it actually

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means to be a servant leader.

1:11
Rick, thank you for being on the servant

1:13
leadership podcast.

Rick's Career Journey

1:14
I'm very grateful to be here. Thanks. I

1:16
have benefited personally from your work

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and admired your work from afar for many

1:21
years over a decade.

1:22
Uh but you've been doing this for over

1:24
two decades right

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so how did this place Dunaman company

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all get started? Yeah, it really goes

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back quite a ways to be honest. Uh when

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I was finish up finishing up my seminary

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work, uh I was involved in development

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work. Um I was getting my masters of

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theology, but I was part of the

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development team at the seminary and

Transition to Consulting

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uh long and short of it ended up um

1:51
going into nonprofit work right out of

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seminary. So for 10 11 years uh I was

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doing uh leadership fundraising kind of

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work within nonprofits.

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Um and then in ' 89 went into consulting

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with a company here in Dallas which is

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why we moved here and did that for 14

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years and then struck out on my own in

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2002 primarily because I wanted to make

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uh a singular focus around ministries

Focus on Ministry Impact

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that were committed to making a bigger

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impact for the kingdom. So that was the

2:24
whole thinking at that time. Still is.

2:27
Um and yeah, the rest is kind of

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history.

2:30
Why the shift that direction? [snorts]

2:32
Um in the former company, we' worked

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with all sorts of nonprofits, which was

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fine. They were very worthy

2:37
organizations, but I was I really wanted

2:41
to be more intentionally on mission

2:44
every day. And I really and the need was

2:46
pretty significant within the Christian

2:48
community for the kind of uh help we

2:50
could provide. So I wanted to do that.

Building a Household Name

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You guys have become a household name

2:55
around the country for helping

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nonprofits think about fundraising and

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raising money in all kinds of ways.

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Uh I'm [snorts] not sure if you imagine

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that off the get-go or

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Hey, my vision was to hang out a shingle

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and pray somebody would pay me for my

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counsel.

3:11
Well, and now it seems like you have to

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turn away ministries based on different

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alignment things. Like you have so many

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people knocking in your door,

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right? Um, I'm curious. What are some

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things that you've seen over the last

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couple decades that have really changed

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how you personally view generosity and

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giving?

Personal Journey on Generosity

3:29
It's a really good question. Um,

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it's part part of it is my own personal

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journey.

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So,

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um, I think you know I wrote a book

3:40
called if God will provide, why why do

3:42
we have to ask for money? And the reason

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I did that is cuz there was often this

3:47
push back coming from

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some donors saying you you don't need to

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do the fundraising. God will provide

3:54
without you doing that. And so I being

3:56
trained theologically I spent three

3:58
years just going through scripture

3:59
trying to understand does the Bible even

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talk about it. And it really impacted my

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view of generosity because what I what I

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learned in that process is that God

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doesn't really want our money. What he

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wants is our heart. The challenge is

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that our heart's connected to our money

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because Jesus said, "Where your treasure

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is,

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that's where your heart's going to be."

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So, this whole exercise of fundraising

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and um and giving is really a it's

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really connected spiritually to our

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personal walk. So, and and as I thought

4:31
about generosity, I get myself in such

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trouble. And I'm sure people listening

4:35
to this will get mad at me, but I

4:38
honestly don't believe in the tithe

4:40
because God God doesn't want a 10% tip

4:43
and then have us do whatever else we

4:45
want.

God's Economy and Stewardship

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God's in God's economy in New Testament,

4:48
it's 100%. It's everything.

4:51
Everything. And what he wants to do is

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how do we steward that well? Because

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that's what the whole issue of

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treasures. It's not just the money. It's

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where your treasures are. That's where

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your heart's going to be. How do we

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steward that well for kingdom purposes?

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And that has all sorts of implications.

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Whether it's my family, what am I doing

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to use what God's put into my trust to

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bring my family in along on their

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spiritual journey? How am I supporting

5:13
his kingdom work through the church,

5:15
through parurch ministries? It it begs a

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much bigger question.

Encouraging Generosity in Others

5:20
How have you helped others go on that

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journey? Because that's that's quite the

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journey for somebody to change from uh

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maybe not giving to hearing they should

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give 10% to then hearing it's all gods.

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Like that's a those are some drastic

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jumps people have to make.

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Well, what it does, it provides a

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tremendous amount of of peace that God

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isn't sitting up there with a scorecard

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looking at card looking at the

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percentage that you're giving. What he

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cares about because it really I could

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give 10% and be wrongly motivated on

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that and be displeasing to God. So the

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issue is where is my heart? How am I

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aligning with God's kingdom purposes?

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And then the the sense of peace it

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brings is that again

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there's no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

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And that means he's not condemning you

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if you're at 9.5%.

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No, you you get my point is that it's

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it's really that idea that all of life

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is stewarding it for kingdom purposes.

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How do I do that? Well,

Daily Stewardship Perspective

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I love the perspective of everything is

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God's and I need to prayerfully ask him

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what he wants me to do with his money

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every day. Like that's just such a

6:27
a counterintuitive perspective, but it

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seems like the right kind of perspective

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to to end up at.

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Yeah. And and you see the freedom. So

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I've done quite a bit of speaking in in

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Australia and the US and it's fun to

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work come up alongside donors and uh

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have the light go on that they they're

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carrying this burden. Am I doing enough?

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and and to all of a sudden understand

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that all God asked me to do is to take

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what he's put into my trust and make

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sure that I'm using it for his kingdom,

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how however that's defined.

Data-Driven Approach

6:59
Yeah. You've had a unique personal

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journey walking with the Lord, but also

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one of the things that I've loved from

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afar is how data driven you have helped

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this company be.

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Yeah. Uh and I mentioned it at the

7:12
outset like I have every year you come

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out with different reports uh partnering

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with a few different people and I'm like

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I love getting those reports like I love

7:19
just reading them and seeing uh often

7:22
things that I'm absolutely surprised by

7:24
even though I'm kind of similarly in a

7:26
similar world to you. Uh how did you

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start looking at the data and were you

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surprised as well when when you started

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getting some of that data put together?

Importance of Data in Decision-Making

7:35
Yeah. So, the the whole data driven part

7:38
of the company comes out of my personal

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embarrassment being in meetings where

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questions were asked that I had no

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earthly clue how to answer cuz I didn't

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have the data. And so, finally just made

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the decision, you know what we're going

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to do? We're going to start investing in

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in answering some of these questions.

7:55
So, um, I love it because one of the

8:00
things we coach on is,

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um, data tells a story and it never

8:06
lies.

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So, if you're willing to to accept the

8:08
data and then act on it, you can

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actually use the data to help you

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improve

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uh, whatever it is that you were on. So,

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um, that's why we're data driven because

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in order for us to help our clients get

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to the point where they need to be, we

8:25
need to make sure that we're missing all

8:27
the potholes and that we're directing

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them the right way in terms of their

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strategies.

Servant Leadership in Practice

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We talk a lot about servant leadership

8:34
and you [clears throat] are interacting

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with some of the best leaders and best

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organizations around the country and

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around the world. Actually, you guys

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have some cool clients around the world.

8:44
uh what are some things that you're

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seeing from a leadership standpoint that

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really exhibit servant leadership as you

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step into these companies and you're

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having some really tough conversations

8:54
about giving and growth and in a lot of

8:58
topics that are important for those

8:59
ministries.

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Um

9:02
the mark to me

9:05
of a great leader in and a true servant

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leader is the core mark is humility. M

9:14
and it's the ability it it and it

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exhibits itself in in in

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honest self-awareness

9:22
of um not being driven by my own

9:27
personal needs and wants

9:30
um and being able to listen to counsel,

9:33
receive it and act on it. And

9:37
unfortunately we have been in situations

9:39
working with leaders where

9:42
um they are closed off. they I don't

9:45
know if they feel threatened or whatever

9:47
it is, but you see the difference and

9:50
even in the culture of that kind of a

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humble and I've just I have in my mind

9:54
one leader right now who exhibits that

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just genuinely humble

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uh welcomes

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uh counsel, seeks counsel and acts on it

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and and he's taken his organization way

10:09
beyond where it should have been.

Supporting and Training Ministries

10:11
It's really cool. you guys come

10:13
alongside and and you support

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ministries, but you're also helping

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train them to be better. Uh what does it

10:19
look like when you're stepping into a

10:21
ministry trying to encourage them to do

10:23
something? And you've kind of you've

10:25
been around the block to know what

10:26
works, what doesn't work. And often, I'm

10:28
guessing, you bump into some push back

10:30
like, well, these guys are outsiders.

10:32
They might not know what they're talking

10:33
about compared to what we're doing.

10:35
Like, how do you even deal with that?

10:36
And then I know from personal experience

10:39
a lot of those organizations that might

10:41
even start out hesitant are like wow

10:43
Dunham's been awesome for us and like

10:44
this is what we learned along the way.

10:46
Like how do you journey with people uh

10:48
in that discovery?

10:50
Yeah I you really need to earn that

10:51
trust. I mean first and foremost is that

10:54
you can't assume especially in new

10:56
relationships. Um and you have to hold

10:59
that trust very carefully. Um, we have a

11:04
a thing called uh the Dunham way and

11:07
it's 10 values or qualities that make up

11:10
the way we operate.

11:13
And uh one of them is uh we we do what

11:18
we say we will do.

11:20
And it's a very simple statement but

11:22
it's powerful because

11:24
it we help every every employee

11:26
understand is if we give our word on

11:28
something it's got to be golden. it has

11:31
we have to deliver on that promise.

11:34
Um and and

11:38
I think that kind of wiring, if you

11:42
would uh allows us to ultimately earn

11:45
the trust that when we say we're going

11:47
to do this, we're going to do it and

11:49
we're going to make sure that it's done

11:51
with excellence and that it's in your

11:53
best interest. M

11:54
so and again some clients it comes

11:57
quicker others it's it takes a it's a

11:59
bit of a journey um but I'm you know

12:02
it's pretty cool that we still have our

12:04
very first client from November 2002

Handling Project Challenges

12:07
that's super cool I didn't know that

12:10
what happens not every project goes well

12:12
no

12:12
like I I've been a part of a lot of

12:15
projects that have gone amazing with

12:16
Dunham I'll preface for those listening

12:18
but on the I'm sure projects haven't

12:21
gone well over 20ome years

12:23
uh how do you handle handle that?

12:25
It really depends. I mean, there's all

12:27
sorts of different reasons that things

12:29
can go bad. Um, one year the postal

12:33
service in December decided not to

12:35
deliver mail and it didn't get there.

12:38
All of our mailings, in fact, this hit

12:40
the entire industry uh landed in January

12:43
rather than December. And it was a

12:45
massive We had one client that lost

12:48
$100,000 just from the mail never

12:50
showing up.

12:50
Wow. And there's nothing you can those

12:52
are variables that are outside your

12:54
control. We had a situation one time

12:57
where a mailing that we handled uh

13:00
didn't go well. We had made some

13:01
mistakes along the way and we we

13:03
refunded everything. We just we said

13:05
that's our that's our bad. You shouldn't

13:07
have to pay the price for that.

13:08
So another one of the dumb ways is that

13:12
we own our mistakes.

13:13
Yeah. And so if if we do mess up, we're

13:16
going to own it, learn from it, and make

13:18
sure that the client doesn't pay a price

13:20
for it.

Business Philosophy and Growth

13:21
That's so powerful. How how do you feel

13:23
like I mean, I know that that's the

13:24
Dunham way, but how do you feel like

13:26
that came about? Because that I wouldn't

13:28
say that's a natural thing for most

13:30
leaders to even view business like that.

13:34
I think it comes from a perspective that

13:37
we're not in business. Our goal has not

13:40
been to grow the company. Our goal has

13:42
been to grow the ministries we serve.

13:45
And by that focus,

13:48
by definition, the company has grown,

13:50
right?

13:51
So the only way you can you, again, this

13:54
is all about trust. The only way you can

13:55
help a ministry grow is if you have that

13:57
trusted advisor kind of a relationship

14:00
where you've earned that trust, you've

14:01
proven it over time, and that you help

14:04
them achieve what on their own they

14:06
couldn't.

International Expansion

14:07
Well, and you guys have grown

14:08
internationally. You opened up an office

14:10
in Australia. Mhm.

14:12
I mean, that was not part of the road

14:14
map in 2002. How did that even come

14:16
about?

14:17
Uh, we had a ministry in 2005 that

14:19
needed some help with an uh charity they

14:22
had set up in Australia. So, we went

14:24
down, spent 10 days there fixing that,

14:26
meeting some of the players, and just

14:28
really coming away with my wife. She

14:30
went with me on that trip. On the flight

14:33
home, I just turned to her a little bit

14:35
fear just saying, "I think God's calling

14:37
us to Australia." Expecting her to say,

14:39
"You're crazy." saying, "Yeah, yeah, I

14:41
think you're right."

14:42
Wow.

14:42
So, it's it's always been missional.

14:44
It's uh it wasn't a business decision.

14:49
It was a missional decision. And it's

14:51
been very exciting to see what God's

14:53
done over the last 20 years.

Challenges of International Operations

14:54
Once you open up an office

14:56
internationally, separate from here. I

14:58
mean, you're in the heart of DFW, so

15:00
travel's not terrible, but I'm sure

15:02
added all kinds of complexities that you

15:04
couldn't have even imagined.

15:05
No. And it is. and that we we had to set

15:09
up an office because of the time

15:10
difference, but also because of the

15:12
cultural difference and um yeah, there's

15:18
there are a lot of complexities, but

15:19
God's been really super faithful. It's

15:21
been awesome to see what he's done.

Leadership Transition to Trent

15:23
[snorts]

15:23
You've made some other bold moves like

15:25
over time. I know Trent has stepped into

15:27
the business and took over a lot of the

15:29
day-to-day stuff. What was that

15:31
conversation like? And I guess for

15:33
listeners, Trent, you were related a

15:35
little bit, I guess you could say. Uh,

15:37
talk about how that decision was made.

15:39
Sure. So, I hired Trent, who's my son,

15:43
uh, 3 months after I started the

15:44
company. He was working in my former

15:47
company, hired him on

15:49
and brought him in literally at the base

15:52
level and he's learned he he's basically

15:55
done everything in the company.

15:57
And it he and I have had clarity that

16:01
Dunaman company wasn't uh

16:05
his to have, it was his to earn.

16:08
And so uh when I did start the company,

16:12
I I vowed a couple things. one, it would

16:15
not be my retirement plan. I would not

16:17
build the company so that someday I

16:19
could cash out and go sit on a beach.

16:22
I wanted to build something that would

16:23
far outlast anything that I could ever

16:25
be involved in. So that was number one.

16:28
And then number two that um in fact we

16:33
we have a lot of conversations about

16:34
this on the whole issue of succession

16:37
that um my goal and the way I'm wired is

16:43
to

16:44
build

16:46
um and to lay a foundation. I'm hands-

16:49
on keyboard. So when you think about a

16:50
founder like me, basically I have my

16:53
hands in everything because I had to

16:54
have my hands in everything. Mhm.

Trent's Leadership Vision

16:56
Um I made him president of the company

17:01
in 2018

17:05
and kind of watched him blossom kind of

17:08
in that role. So basically had most of

17:11
the company reporting to him except for

17:13
finance and HR.

17:16
And then uh in 2021

17:21
uh unannounced he came in my office and

17:24
sat down and wanted to share his vision

17:26
for the company.

17:27
And

17:29
when he got done outlining his vision

17:31
for the company, I realized it was at

17:34
least 10x my vision.

17:37
And just listening to made me exhausted.

17:39
So I thought, you know, it really is the

17:42
the time for succession is

17:48
um what I sense was I'd watched him

17:51
operate and build a team of specialists

17:55
that were reporting to him that were

17:59
beginning to change the shape of what we

18:01
were offering in a very good way. It it

18:03
was rounding it out and really helping

18:05
to augment what uh the services we were

18:08
providing. to really help ministries

18:10
more effectively. And when I heard his

18:12
vision, I realized that my season was

18:15
up. And some one of the things we coach

18:18
and we're actually working on a book on

18:20
this is it it leaders need to understand

18:24
that God has created life to be in

18:26
seasons. It's just the way he's done it.

18:29
We live it every year. We live it in our

18:32
own lives as children. We go through

18:33
that season of teenagers, young adults,

18:37
newly marrieds, young kids, teenagers.

18:40
Then they get married, they have grand.

18:42
So it's all seasons.

Understanding Leadership Seasons

18:43
Yeah.

18:45
Sometimes, many times, most times,

18:47
leaders fail to understand that when

18:49
they're put into a leadership role, they

18:51
need to walk into it understanding God's

18:53
called me here for a season. It's got a

18:54
sell by date on it.

18:56
It's going to end. So, how do I begin to

18:58
think about what does it look like? How

19:00
am I leading forward so that when I do

19:03
step away, the the organization's even

19:06
stronger than it's ever been and it's

19:08
prepared for the next season of growth.

19:10
Yeah.

19:10
So, that's always been my mindset.

19:12
Yeah. Jim Collins talks about that a lot

19:14
in in Good to Great, just a level five

19:16
leader. And you don't know necessarily

19:18
if you were a great level five leader

19:20
until you've left and if the

19:21
organization is better without you than

19:23
it was with you,

19:24
right? uh you're bumping into a lot of

19:26
ministries that have had great leaders

19:29
over a long period of time and now

19:31
you've done the succession thing well. I

19:33
know you're still here and involved

19:34
still, but you've been able to do that

19:36
really well from the outside. Have you

19:38
been able to step in and help other

19:40
organizations think through that or do

19:42
you stay out of that?

Coaching on Succession

19:43
No, no, absolutely. If we're if we're

19:45
invited into that, we will help coach on

19:47
that and help people walk it through. Um

19:51
I think one of the things again helping

19:53
leaders understand is um

19:58
God has wired you for a certain season

20:00
and you have a skill set to bring for

20:02
that season that's to the benefit of the

20:04
organization.

20:06
The person that's going to be succeeding

20:08
and this is true with Trent. He's got a

20:10
different skill set than I do. If I were

20:12
to have stayed in the seat I would have

20:14
stunted the growth of the company.

20:16
But he's wired for this next season in a

20:18
way that I'm not. and he can just it's

20:20
so apparent.

20:22
In fact, I was talking we were talking

20:23
earlier today. There have been times

20:25
I've been in my office frustrated with

20:27
his decision because I wouldn't have

20:29
done it that way only to watch it turn

20:32
out much better than I thought it ever

20:33
would and better than what if I had done

20:35
it. So, it's really having the mindset

20:37
that it's okay to step aside. My role is

20:40
his wingman. uh he's got complete

20:43
authority over the company and I'm here

20:46
just to help him succeed and then just

20:47
to be

20:50
corporate memory, you know, just stuff

20:52
that I've been through that he wants to

20:53
ping me on.

Developing Leadership Capabilities

20:55
How did you help him develop his

20:57
leadership capabilities because there's

20:59
a lot of people listening who might be

21:00
in similar shoes where they're trying to

21:02
think through it might not be family,

21:03
but it might be family. It might be

21:05
they've got the number two or they know

21:07
who's next, who's going to replace them,

21:09
but there's a lot of fear probably in

21:11
wanting to hold on and like just stay in

21:14
the role because they know it's working

21:15
and what happens if I let go?

21:18
So, I think it's a combination

21:21
of two things that live in tension.

21:25
One is giving uh that individual

21:29
uh increased responsibility so they

21:32
could be stretched

21:34
and learn

21:36
but also having the willingness to go in

21:38
and do what I call hold up the mirror

21:40
and just say this is something you can't

21:43
see right now but I'm going to hold the

21:44
mirror up for you so you to have that

21:46
really blunt and honest conversation

21:48
that's super clear. Many leaders fear

21:50
that and they struggle with that because

21:52
they don't want to be disliked. But

21:55
there was a conversation I had with

21:56
Trent probably

22:00
um around 2011 2012. We had been in a

22:04
meeting. He had not done well. Uh he

22:08
went to his office. I went behind him,

22:10
closed the door and I just said, "Tran,

22:11
if that ever happens again, you will

22:12
never run this company." And let me be

22:14
very clear what I mean. So I walked him

22:16
through the whole thing.

22:18
And that was a pivotal moment for him

22:21
because it he took it as a challenge. M

22:24
and a year later when the consultant

22:26
came in, it was consult we were using

22:28
did the same meeting asked me what

22:30
happened to Trent? He is so different. I

22:33
go he took the challenge.

22:35
But the whole point is it's stretching

22:37
but it's also challenging and being

22:39
willing to have the really hard and

22:40
honest conversation because they can't

22:42
grow if you're if you're not that

22:44
upfront with them.

Surprises in Fundraising

22:45
I love that. uh you've you've had such a

22:49
good vantage point for a while in the

22:51
world of fundraising and nonprofits.

22:53
What are some things that have surprised

22:55
you over the last decade plus

22:58
and what are you thinking about for the

23:00
next decade? What do you think is going

23:02
to be some of the surprises that people

23:03
don't even realize are coming?

23:06
Yeah, I think that's a that's a really

23:09
interesting question because I I don't

23:11
know that I've actually been surprised

23:13
by anything

23:15
as much as

23:18
um

23:22
as much as the the complexity of

23:25
challenges that um most organizations

23:29
face and how you you can't bring a

23:33
one-stop solution because of the

23:35
complexity of each organization so

23:37
different.

23:38
And so it's not been a surprise, but

23:40
it's been a an adjustment that we've had

23:43
to become much more nimble and flexible

23:46
and uh as we get out in under the hood

23:49
for an organization of really having the

23:54
complete tool set to be able to help as

23:58
we identify the problems be able to

24:00
bring a solution that will honestly

24:01
work. So

24:04
again, it wasn't really a surprise. It's

24:05
been more of a journey to understand

24:07
that where we started out initially

24:12
would would would help an organization

24:15
in one

24:17
lane, but it wouldn't help the

24:18
organization lift fully to where it

24:21
needed to be. So, and I think that's

24:23
frankly what Trent's done best is help

24:25
us build out um our offerings to to meet

24:28
the complexities that organizations are

24:31
facing today.

Insights from Data Research

24:32
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because you

24:34
bring some some knowledge that to me is

24:37
counterintuitive based on some of the

24:39
research you've done an an example.

24:42
I was reading and this is maybe

24:44
three four months ago. you did it before

24:46
that, but three or four months ago, I

24:47
was reading some some research you guys

24:49
put out and it talked about how Gen Z's

24:52
uh actually want direct mail more than

24:54
any other generation.

24:55
Like I think about digital marketing all

24:57
the time. Uh I don't think about direct

25:00
mail hardly ever. Um and then when I'm

25:03
reading that I'm like what in the world?

25:05
And it doesn't talk like it I mean you

25:08
can explain this better, but it doesn't

25:09
talk about how they give via mail but

25:10
how they want to receive it and then how

25:12
how that increased online donations. And

25:14
I was like, a light switch went on. And

25:16
I was like, wow, that's really

25:17
interesting. But

25:18
I feel like you have a lot of those

25:20
every

Survey Findings on Gen Z

25:21
year where maybe you're just so

0:25:23
close to it, it isn't surprising to you

0:25:25
now, you're like, well, we expect that.

Direct Mail and Donations

0:25:28
And and

0:25:25
well, that to that, thank you for

0:25:28
bringing that up cuz that when we first

0:25:29
discovered that about four years ago,

0:25:31
yeah,

0:25:32
it was like,

0:25:34
are we sure we surveyed the right group

0:25:37
on this? because there there was a

0:25:38
couple things that were showing up in

0:25:40
the data that was very different about

0:25:42
Gen Z

0:25:43
and um part of what we're in fact we'll

0:25:47
be presenting at CNB's momentum here in

0:25:49
a few weeks and part of what we're going

0:25:50
to be presenting on is many

0:25:53
organizations bringing up direct mail

0:25:56
analyze direct mail ba based on the uh

0:25:58
direct traceable revenue coming back

0:26:00
which is diminishing all the time

0:26:01
checks like physical checks okay yeah

0:26:03
that's yeah

Online vs. Mail Donations

0:26:05
so 21 22% of donors like to give a check

0:26:09
in response to direct mail. 47% like to

0:26:11
give online. Well, do the math. I mean,

0:26:14
if you got a $100 back in the mail, that

0:26:16
means you probably got another couple

0:26:18
hundred dollars online. So, we've been

0:26:20
building out ways in which to look at

0:26:22
what we're calling indirect income so

0:26:24
that don't organizations don't make a

0:26:26
wrong decision about direct mail that

0:26:27
it's not performing like it should

0:26:29
because it is. And frankly, what I talk

0:26:32
about a lot is for us older folks that

0:26:35
pre- internet when postal mail was the

0:26:38
way that you got information.

Digital Marketing Challenges

0:26:40
Um, your mailbox was just chalk full

0:26:44
every day.

0:26:45
I mean, stuff full. Um, and

0:26:50
it was a sort I mean, you you'd spend

0:26:52
five minutes just sorting through all

0:26:53
your mail and just trying to figure out

0:26:54
what to look at. Well, that's the inbox

0:26:56
today. That's the really the challenge

0:26:58
of digital marketing and in email

0:27:00
because everybody's inbox is so full.

Omni-Channel Messaging

0:27:03
Well, Dre Mill shows up today and what

0:27:04
do you got? Three pieces.

0:27:06
Yeah.

0:27:06
So, if you actually show up. So, we

0:27:09
we're strong believers in

0:27:12
omni channel

0:27:13
messaging or the same message. So,

0:27:16
direct mail can play a lead role, the

0:27:18
email, text, all of it.

0:27:20
But it's got to work in concert. And if

0:27:21
it does,

0:27:23
the results are usually pretty pretty

0:27:25
significant. Yeah, I forget I forget if

0:27:28
it was a report that you guys did. I

0:27:29
think it was somebody did it and I was

0:27:31
reading it around that same time about

0:27:33
text being just unbelievable. Like 98%

0:27:35
open rates and things like that.

Text Donations and Gen Z

0:27:37
And there's 5% of donors say they've

0:27:39
given by text and 10% of Gen Z say they

0:27:43
have.

0:27:43
And that's an indication to me not of

0:27:46
lack of interest, but lack of uh lack of

0:27:49
ministries using that as a tool the way

0:27:51
they should. Mhm.

0:27:52
So, we've got a case study we're going

0:27:54
to present that shows that if you use

0:27:56
text, it can it can perform

0:27:58
exceptionally well and it's a stream of

0:28:00
revenue that you're just not realizing

0:28:01
right now.

Cross-Network Attribution

0:28:02
Yeah. Well, it's interesting like a few

0:28:04
years ago, Google did something with

0:28:06
their analytics platform when they

0:28:07
launched J4 and they changed one of the

0:28:09
measurements to be crossnet network

0:28:10
attribution which was the whole point

0:28:12
was you might not see in a direct mail

0:28:14
or in a text or just from an online ad.

0:28:17
it was they had to see all of them in

0:28:19
order to actually give and and the

0:28:21
importance that they all were like

0:28:23
different legs of a stool if you will.

0:28:25
So that was interesting.

Decline in Number of Givers

0:28:26
Y

0:28:27
um something I'm curious about

0:28:30
[clears throat] giving numbers are way

0:28:32
up it feels like year-over-year and I

0:28:34
think you talked about this a little bit

0:28:35
in some of the stuff you've done uh but

0:28:37
the number of givers has declined a

0:28:38
little bit. Why is that?

0:28:41
Well, it really goes back there's a

0:28:43
couple different answers to this. First

0:28:45
of all, um there's a direct correlation

0:28:49
between religious engagement and giving.

0:28:51
That's been proven for years. And um

Religious Engagement and Giving

0:28:56
and religion or Christian specific

0:28:58
I'm talking about Christian.

0:28:59
Okay, great.

0:29:00
Although the same the same is true of

0:29:01
other faith that there is a correlation

0:29:04
between faith involvement and giving.

0:29:06
But in America,

0:29:09
uh, with the decline in participation,

0:29:12
you've seen a decline actually in

0:29:15
biblical literacy around giving.

0:29:17
So, think about that's generational. The

0:29:20
other is more policy driven. So back in

0:29:22
2017, the tax cut and jobs act doubled

0:29:26
the standard deduction

Tax Policy Impact

0:29:28
and uh prior to that there was over I

0:29:32
think it was close to 40% of taxpayers

0:29:35
were itemizing and today it's about 8%.

0:29:38
and Lily Family School of Philanthropy

0:29:40
did a study that they estimated

0:29:43
somewhere around $20 billion was lost in

0:29:45
revenue just in 2018 from charitable

0:29:49
revenue just because of that uh change

0:29:51
cuz if I'm not going to itemize I'm

0:29:53
taking the standard deduction the

0:29:55
motivation one of the motivations to

0:29:57
give more is gone or even to give so

0:30:00
[snorts]

0:30:01
there's been a lot of concern in the

0:30:04
industry around

Universal Charitable Deduction

0:30:06
um the dollars up donors down. I think

0:30:10
household participation's gone from 65%

0:30:14
in

0:30:16
uh around 2000 to

0:30:20
uh it is now 42%.

0:30:23
So pretty dramatic decline. So fast

0:30:27
forward to last year, the tax policy

0:30:29
changes in the one big beautiful bill

0:30:32
and uh one of the things that was

0:30:34
approved in the bill uh was passed was

0:30:38
um the universal charitable tax

0:30:40
deduction. What that is is if you take

0:30:42
the standard deduction, and this is a

0:30:44
permanent change in tax law. If you take

0:30:47
the standard deduction, you can now

0:30:48
deduct if you're single $1,000 of

0:30:50
charitable uh contributions. And if

0:30:53
you're uh married filing jointly, it's

0:30:56
up to 2,000.

Communicating Tax Changes

0:30:57
And that's an above the line deduction.

0:30:59
So again, some studies have been done on

0:31:02
that. And there's an estimate out there

0:31:05
of that should add about 6 to8 million

0:31:08
donors uh annually and about $6 billion

0:31:13
of additional revenue. The challenge

0:31:16
we're going to have this year is

0:31:17
communicating that uh so so that donors

0:31:20
who take the standard deduction, which

0:31:21
is the vast majority, understand that

0:31:24
that you can give up to $1,000 or 2,000

0:31:27
and get the deduction. And if you're we

0:31:29
just in one of our studies, we asked a

0:31:31
question and uh

0:31:34
13%

0:31:36
of non-donor said they would start

0:31:38
giving if they had that option

0:31:40
to take that deduction. So,

0:31:42
we'll see. I just I think there's some

0:31:45
effort to try to change that trend.

Raising Awareness

0:31:48
Um

0:31:50
but we'll see.

0:31:51
I mean, how do you even go about helping

0:31:54
people be aware? Because if that's off

0:31:55
of gross income, which it sounds like

0:31:58
somebody could technically change their

0:32:00
tax bracket like slightly and then it

0:32:02
makes a huge difference. Not only are

0:32:04
they giving more more, but they're also

0:32:07
getting tax. We're making some

0:32:09
recommendations on that, whether it's in

0:32:11
the receiving process, having a drop in,

0:32:13
having a drop in in a newsletter. Um

0:32:17
there's I think there are ways to get

0:32:19
that message out

0:32:21
kind of a did you know.

0:32:23
Um but yeah, it's um

0:32:26
yeah, it's going to be interesting to

0:32:28
see what happens this year with that.

Nonprofit Trends

0:32:30
All right, I'm going to ask you a

0:32:31
question that might be tough for you to

0:32:33
answer, but there's more nonprofits than

0:32:35
ever, it seems. And people all the time

0:32:37
you hear people saying, "Oh, I'm gonna

0:32:38
start a nonprofit." Uh, you have a

0:32:41
vantage point where you get to look at

0:32:43
them and sometimes you might look at a

0:32:44
nonprofit and be like, "Boy, they should

0:32:46
not be they should not be in existence."

0:32:48
And other times you're like, "Oh man,

0:32:50
what you're doing, it's amazing. You

0:32:51
should start a nonprofit." And like,

0:32:52
"This could really be a thing."

Evaluating Nonprofits

0:32:54
[clears throat]

0:32:54
How how are you seeing the trends in the

0:32:56
nonprofit world? Like, are you excited

0:32:57
about where things are going? Are you

0:32:59
thinking that some should shut down?

0:33:01
Like, what are you seeing with your

0:33:02
vantage point? Yeah, I think we've

0:33:05
actually helped uh a number of of

0:33:09
visions come into reality by helping

0:33:11
start the nonprofit, Bill, helping them

0:33:13
build the infrastructure for it because

0:33:15
it was a worthy cause. Um, and

0:33:20
they're doing pretty good today. Um,

0:33:24
there's there's something like one and a

0:33:26
half million nonprofits, might be higher

0:33:28
than that now in the US. And yeah, there

0:33:31
are some that should not be in

0:33:33
existence, no doubt. And um

Passion and Impact

0:33:38
for us, it's all about how passionate

0:33:42
are they uh around growing their impact.

0:33:46
Are they just trying to get by? Are they

0:33:48
just trying to make it? Or are they are

0:33:50
they willing to to really press into

0:33:52
things and see uh a greater impact? And

0:33:56
that's kind of what we look for. M you

0:33:59
talk about impact with all of the things

0:34:01
that we get involved in. Uh our mission

0:34:05
is to impact hundreds of millions of

0:34:07
people. It's why we even think about

0:34:08
this podcast. You have been in a

0:34:10
position where the stuff you have gotten

0:34:13
involved in over the last couple

0:34:14
decades, have influenced hundreds of

0:34:16
millions of people. Uh it's cool because

0:34:19
you're doing it towards Christ, like

0:34:21
you're impacting them towards Christ. Uh

0:34:23
there's a lot of weight with that

0:34:24
though. Um what has been some of the

0:34:27
most exciting stuff that you have seen

0:34:29
happen over the last couple decades

0:34:32
related to impact?

Exciting Impact Stories

0:34:34
Yeah. Um

0:34:37
a couple things. There's an Australian

0:34:39
ministry that um this goes back a number

0:34:43
of years but they were

0:34:46
basically on the verge of bankruptcy.

0:34:49
And in Australia the the annual

0:34:52
financial year for the country is July 1

0:34:53
to June 30. Everybody has a what they

0:34:56
call an end of financial year push in

0:34:57
June. So they came to us and asked if we

0:35:01
would help them with their end of

0:35:02
financial year push

0:35:04
and they had put together a whole plan

0:35:07
for staff layoffs the whole bit. And we

0:35:11
we pushed through the end of financial

0:35:14
year and helped them raise so much money

0:35:17
that not only did they not

0:35:20
uh have to lay off staff, but we

0:35:22
actually created a buffer for them to

0:35:24
begin growing and they've become one of

0:35:26
the more powerful

0:35:28
uh Christian lobby groups in in

0:35:30
Australia. It's really a very cool story

0:35:33
and I that

0:35:35
when you see that, you just feel so

0:35:36
grateful

0:35:37
that God allowed us to do that. Wow.

Future Excitements

0:35:40
What are you most excited about for your

0:35:42
next 10 years?

0:35:44
It's really interesting to see where

0:35:46
things are going. I'm grateful for

0:35:48
Trent's leadership. I think what we're

0:35:50
doing especially with AI and how we're

0:35:53
we've brought in uh a gentleman out of

0:35:56
the UK called James Poulter who's one of

0:35:58
the leading global minds on AI,

0:36:02
strong believer and we're helping

0:36:06
ministries

0:36:08
begin to think through and craft for

0:36:11
themselves how what's the ethical use of

0:36:14
AI, how do we use AI, and how does that

0:36:18
help us push mission And there's a lot

0:36:20
of unknowns in that. So, I get pretty

0:36:22
excited to think that we're on the

0:36:25
forefront of helping ministries do that.

0:36:27
And and there's been a couple of cases

0:36:29
already that we've watched that have

0:36:31
just been really exciting. So, I'm I'm

0:36:33
pumped about that.

Mentoring and Leadership

0:36:35
Um, and for me personally,

0:36:40
um,

0:36:41
yeah, I think it's

0:36:45
it's an overused word, but the mentoring

0:36:47
I get to do is what gets me most

0:36:49
excited.

0:36:50
How do you pick and choose your

0:36:51
mentoring?

0:36:52
I don't.

0:36:55
Yeah. So, it's more uh the team here.

0:36:58
Okay. being available to uh the others

0:37:03
in the sea level, but also then some of

0:37:05
the up and uh rising stars in our

0:37:09
company coming alongside them

0:37:12
and providing some

0:37:14
put the arm around the shoulder

0:37:16
mentoring and guidance and then uh yeah

0:37:20
so that to me I I and then with our

0:37:23
clients just I have the opportunity to

0:37:26
mentor a number of leaders within our

0:37:28
client science. It's pretty exciting.

Rapid Fire Questions

0:37:30
Wow. All right. I want to finish with 10

0:37:32
rapid fire questions.

0:37:34
Uh say the first thing that comes to

0:37:36
mind, no wrong answers. Who's the first

0:37:38
person you think of when I say servant

0:37:40
leadership?

0:37:41
My m my mind

0:37:44
defaults to the most common answer to

0:37:47
that and that's of course Christ because

0:37:49
of just the way he led and the fact that

0:37:52
he in my opinion took a beyond servant

0:37:55
leadership. But that's a whole another

0:37:56
conversation. Um, I really don't have

0:38:00
somebody that jumps to my mind. I'm

0:38:01
sorry.

Personal Traits and Books

0:38:01
Well, you can go with Christ. That's the

0:38:03
ultimate circle and beyond.

0:38:05
Five words that most describe you.

0:38:08
Ooh.

0:38:10
Grateful. [clears throat]

0:38:12
Um,

0:38:13
yeah. I

0:38:16
I the the key word I think of all the

0:38:18
time is just grace. Just

0:38:21
um

0:38:23
Yeah, grateful.

0:38:25
Um, I hope strategic.

0:38:28
Um, that's really hard one cuz that's

0:38:31
that's a [laughter]

0:38:32
what what I

0:38:34
You got to talk about your best traits.

0:38:35
My best my best traits. Well, let's talk

0:38:37
to my wife. She'll tell the opposite.

0:38:40
[laughter]

0:38:41
But yeah, she she's helped me become, I

0:38:44
think, a fairly patient person.

0:38:45
So, I think of of patience.

0:38:48
Um,

0:38:50
yeah. Enga. And I I think of the word

0:38:52
engaged because I we've got nine

0:38:54
grandkids, very engaged in their lives,

0:38:56
which is super cool.

0:38:58
That's awesome. All right. Um, what's

0:39:00
been one of the most impactful books on

0:39:02
you?

Favorite Books and Food

0:39:06
You know what? From a business point of

0:39:07
view, you mentioned it earlier, Good to

0:39:09
Great was pretty impactful. I mean, it

0:39:11
just it opened up a lot. I love Leion

0:39:13
stuff. I mean, that's also been very

0:39:15
helpful to us in leadership. Um,

0:39:19
in my personal life, it's the knowledge

0:39:21
of the holy.

0:39:23
Still my favorite.

0:39:24
All right. Favorite food?

0:39:27
Italian.

Free Time and Surprising Facts

0:39:27
Favorite thing to do in your free time.

0:39:30
Hanging with the grandkids and my wife.

0:39:31
Love that. What's a surprising fact

0:39:34
about you?

0:39:35
Oh, I was in a rock band growing up.

0:39:37
No way. That was surprising. Cool.

0:39:41
You still play them?

0:39:42
That was another life. No.

0:39:43
No. Okay. Um, all right. favorite place

0:39:45
you've been?

Travel and Advice

0:39:47
Um,

0:39:49
probably Italy.

0:39:51
Is there somewhere in the world that you

0:39:53
would love to go that you have not been

0:39:54
to yet?

0:39:56
Not really, cuz I've been to so many

0:39:58
countries. I think I've pretty Well,

0:40:02
no.

0:40:03
All right, that's good. You've seen

0:40:04
everything you need to see.

0:40:06
Um, best advice you've ever received?

0:40:09
I would say learning to play the long

0:40:12
game.

0:40:13
Yeah.

0:40:14
Yeah. Just focus on the long game.

0:40:16
You'll always win if you do.

Servant Leadership Importance

0:40:17
Yeah. One of my favorite books is The

0:40:19
Infinite Game. I'm not sure if you read

0:40:21
that by Simon Synynic, but it's all

0:40:22
about that. Um, all right. And finally,

0:40:24
a podcast on servant leadership. Uh, why

0:40:27
does servant leadership matter to people

0:40:29
or why should it be important to them?

0:40:31
Yeah. And again, I mentioned my views

0:40:33
just a little bit different on servant

0:40:35
leadership because I think when Jesus

0:40:36
talks about it in Matthew 20, he's

0:40:39
really he's shifting a paradigm

0:40:43
by saying the world value uh evaluates

0:40:46
leadership based on power and control

0:40:48
and kind of what's in it for me and I

0:40:51
evaluate leadership in a very different

0:40:53
way.

Beyond Servanthood

0:40:53
And I actually think he takes it beyond

0:40:55
servantthood because he says if you want

0:40:57
to be great, you want to be a servant.

0:40:58
If you want to be the greatest, you want

0:41:00
to be a bond slave.

0:41:02
And if you go to how he defines that's

0:41:05
really defined by by Paul in Philippians

0:41:09
2 when he talks about how this attitude

0:41:12
that Christ had even though he was equal

0:41:15
with God, he did not regard equality

0:41:18
with God something to be held on to. But

0:41:19
he emptied himself,

0:41:22
took on the form of a bond slave. Same

0:41:24
word dulos.

0:41:26
And then when he became flesh, he

0:41:28
humbled himself and became obedient to

0:41:31
the point of death. So

0:41:33
when I think of leadership

0:41:36
and servant leadership, I actually think

0:41:38
of being the bonds slave that Jesus

0:41:40
talks about and that and that you're

0:41:44
you're being a bondslave

0:41:46
the master is Jesus. So it's and what

0:41:50
that means to me is complete and utter

0:41:55
abandonment

0:41:56
to Christ in your life.

Final Thoughts

0:41:58
I love that

0:41:59
because without that you can't truly

0:42:01
lead as a servant.

0:42:03
Yeah. So I think and I think that's what

0:42:05
Jesus was pushing the disciples to in

0:42:07
that passage is that you you've got to

0:42:10
sell out to me completely as a bond

0:42:12
slave

0:42:13
and that's genuine leadership because

0:42:15
then you'll have all the attributes

0:42:17
of a genuine leader.

0:42:19
I love that. Well, and it's that same

0:42:21
challenge of like moving from Matthew

0:42:24
20, and I hadn't thought through it in

0:42:25
that way, but I like that uh later like

0:42:27
in John 13, it shifted like or not

0:42:30
Matthew 20, Matthew somewhere in Matthew

0:42:32
when they're talking about like um love,

0:42:35
love your neighbor as yourself. Uh but

0:42:37
later at the last supper, Jesus is like

0:42:39
a new commandment I give you. Love

0:42:41
others like I have loved you. And it's a

0:42:43
totally new framework like that constant

0:42:45
reframing of like, okay, this is going

0:42:48
to be way more difficult. uh probably

0:42:50
won't get there, but it is complete

0:42:51
humble and obedience and submission and

0:42:54
abandonment to God. So, I love that.

Closing Remarks

0:42:57
Well, Rick, thank you for your wisdom.

0:42:58
Thanks for what you're doing here at

0:42:59
Dunham.

0:43:00
Uh we're going to put in the show notes

0:43:02
for people listening a link where they

0:43:03
can check out Dunham uh if they don't

0:43:05
know it already. And just thankful for

0:43:07
you.

0:43:07
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

0:43:09
Thank you for listening to this episode

0:43:11
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

0:43:14
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

0:43:15
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0:43:17
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