Steve Preston's Intro

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Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast, we're joined by Steve Preston, a leader who has served at the highest levels of

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both business and government and now leads Goodwill Industries International. Steve has been an investment banker, a

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Fortune 500 CFO, and a senior government official serving as administrator of the Small Business Administration and

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Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. Today, he oversees one of the largest nonprofit networks in North

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America, focused on helping people find dignity and opportunity through work. In this episode, Steve shares how he's

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navigated some of the toughest leadership challenges of his career. From turning around federal agencies in

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crisis to transforming workplace culture and how servant leadership guides every decision he makes. If you're passionate

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about using your influence to make a difference, this conversation is for you. Steve, thank you for joining us on

Welcome Steve Preston

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the servant leadership podcast. Oh, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. When I first heard your background, I

Steve's Professional Journey

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could not believe all of the experience you've had both in the private and public sector. Uh, and now you're

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leading Goodwill. Talk about the journey professionally that you've had because

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it's unbelievable. Well, you know, I I uh uh started out in

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a relatively conventional way. I went to uh uh got an MBA uh uh with a

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specialization in finance and after that I went to New York as an investment banker. Uh I was mostly focused on doing

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something that I loved and where I'd learn and grow a lot and so New York and the world of banking was kind of a whole

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new world for me and it really kind of launched me uh in life in a lot of important ways. Um after being in that

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role for a number of years, I decided that um I wanted to learn how to grow as

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a leader. Uh I wanted to have a different kind of engagement and I I I thought my clients were having more fun

1:58
than I was. And so I left banking and I went into the corporate side and ultimately became the CFO uh of a large

2:04
company called Service Master which had about nine different holding company or nine different companies. Um after that

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I went through a time of real discernment where I felt like I wanted to have a different kind of impact in

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life and that led me into the federal government where I ran two agencies. I was the administrator of the small

2:22
business administration and I was the secretary of housing and urban development. Um and both of those were

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in times of of big crisis where both of those agencies were in the middle of those crisis. Uh I left there I went

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back into the private sector. I ran a couple of of companies and then after the second company uh was when I uh for

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a number of reasons decided that I wanted to uh again have a different kind

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of impact in life and um and ended up at Goodwill as a result and it was very

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much that decision was very much tied to the the mission of Goodwill and and and and a cause that was on my heart very

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strongly. Wow. So, so you've led in some of the largest private companies in the world.

Why Take On New Job Challenges?

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Most people would set out to achieve that and kind of just stay there forever um because it's their dream job,

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especially CFO of a company like Service Master and other companies you were involved in. Um what was it like and

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what was really the the driver that led you to even think about doing something else? Early in my career, um, I I

3:28
learned pretty quickly that all that glitters isn't gold, right? I worked uh on Wall Street. Back then, the Wall

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Street firms were much smaller. They were very flat. We got to know all the leadership. Um and um and you know it it

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it's sort of uh when you have sort of broader personal goals in life or or uh

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you're driven by a you know a lot of different things uh you realize that um

3:58
you know you look more broadly at your life. Let me just get a little bit more specific. you know, when I was at Lehman, um, obviously the world of

4:04
investment banking in New York, there's a certain ethos around it and there a lot of great people in that profession, but it was, you know, there was a big

4:12
golden purse. You know, once you got um to the partner level, uh, you had a lot

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of influence. It was very prestigious. And, um, being up close to those um,

4:25
motivators early in life uh, was very good for me. because it helped me

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understand that those were kind of thin, right? That th those weren't going to give me um the things in life that I was

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hoping to get out of my life. And so, uh when I had the opportunities later, uh I

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had two different situations where I was sort of the u the CEO parent in a couple

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of very large organizations. uh it was easy for me to walk away from those similar to how to how I walked

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away from Lehman for things that uh I felt I was being called to where I could

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have a different kind of impact. Uh and as a result I never really looked back uh and those were uh those were great

5:09
decisions but you have to kind of be grounded in what you think is important in life uh and and the kind of impact

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that you want to have. So when you jumped into the public sector then uh you jumped into absolute

Katrina Crisis And The Small Business Association

5:25
crisis um and really were the turnaround person

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to come in and help lead through unbelievable uncertainty. Talk about

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what it was like first at with the SBA and then and then where it went from

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there. Yeah. So, at the SBA, uh the SBA is the

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agency of the federal government that makes loans to homeowners, not just businesses, homeowners as well as

5:53
businesses who have um lost their their

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facilities or their businesses in a natural disaster. And I came in about 10 months after Katrina and uh very little

6:07
of the capital from that loan program had begun flowing into uh into the Gulf. And as a result, there were just

6:13
hundreds of thousands of people who were backed up in their ability to get their lives back. And so, um, I'd come out of

6:20
the private sector. I I'd never had a public job like that before. It was, uh,

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um, it was, yeah, it was a whole new thing. Jumping into the public eye and seeing myself seeing articles about

6:31
myself in magazines that were completely untrue where I hadn't even started the job yet, it was crazy. It was, it was

6:37
actually a good initiation. Uh, and it was um and the SBA was very much um in

6:43
the media. The really the only uh uh you know, I hate to say it this way, but the

6:49
saving grace for the SBA was that FEMA was getting even more uh uh attention uh

6:54
for the response and but um uh yes, that was very difficult. The the agency had

7:00
the lowest morale of any federal agency in the federal government based on the surveys that they do. Um people in

7:05
Congress were calling for my predecessor's resignation. and the press was terrible. So, it was it was a very

7:11
um it was sort of an entry from a place of uh relative safety, you know, as a

7:18
CFO of a large company and then later as a as a senior operating uh leader um to

7:25
a place of of complete vulnerability. And so, um, yeah, it was it was, uh, it

7:33
was really sort of, um, it was shocking in a lot of ways. But I think the other

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thing it did was it invoked every part of me as a leader. I mean, I knew I knew

7:47
what I had to be in that place pretty quickly. I knew that I had to be a certain type of leader for the people

7:53
because of the morale issues and because of the poor performance issues and because of the media. So the people were

7:59
very much um impacted personally because many of them uh you know their lives

8:06
were about succeeding in this mission and they were failing and uh and they

8:12
wanted to be there for Americans in need and they couldn't because the because uh operationally

8:19
uh the the organization was uh really had just almost collapsed in a lot of

8:24
ways. So, so you had to be there for the people. You had to be a public or I had to be a public face in the midst of this

8:31
um uh challenge almost immediately. I had to be um uh you know managed

8:37
stakeholder relationships on both sides of the aisle uh in Congress. Obviously,

8:42
there were expectations from the White House, but most of all traveling through the Gulf and talking

8:50
to people in need and seeing how their lives had been affected. Many of them had lost loved ones. Many of them had

8:56
not been in their homes for 10 months. Um, that was without a question the most

9:02
striking uh factor uh the most motivating factor uh for me when I came

9:08
in because I'd never had a job or never had a role where the outcome of my work

9:15
was that uh directly essential uh to people's lives. And so it was pretty

9:22
easy to wake up every day and saying, "Look, I've I've got to be on my game now. I have to be focused on being the

9:30
best in every possible way in all of these spheres now." Uh, and so it was a

9:36
um it it was it was a like like just a very sharp call uh across the spectrum

9:43
of of of what I needed to do. Well, you talk about jumping into a role

Servant Leadership In Difficult Environments

9:48
that probably most people wouldn't want to jump into uh given the difficulty at

9:55
hand. And one of the things I've heard from a number of people is your ability

10:00
to lead well is extraordinary. Uh it's just people talk so highly of you. We

10:06
talk a lot about servant leadership on this podcast. How did you think about servant leadership at all or just how to

10:13
lead in that type of environment? stepping into just like you talked about a team with low morale and maybe not

10:20
getting the results that anyone wanted. Yeah. So I think as a person in a role like

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that and truly any leader I've learned that you have to know what your mission is, believe in that mission and believe

10:35
that kind of like you know you've been placed on earth to advance that mission and then that mission needs to animate

10:42
all that you do, right? You need and and if you do that well, you need to engage

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every gift, every competency, every morsel of energy you have in service to that mission. And I believe when you do

10:54
that, the best of what you have to give as a leader comes out. It comes out almost naturally because you're so

11:00
engaged and you're so focused on on all of the different things that need to happen to be successful.

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um you really do find yourself um really I I guess just once again giving the

11:13
best that you have in every realm in a crisis like this or in times of great change. People need clear decisive

Importance Of Clear, Decisive Leadership

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leadership that they can trust. Now they don't they don't expect all the answers. They don't expect you to know

11:28
everything. They don't expect perfection. But they need to know that the leader has his or her hands firmly

11:33
on the wheel. that once again they're completely committed to the mission. It's not about them, it's about the

11:38
mission and also that they will be their advocate and supporter through the storm. And that was very important

11:44
through the SBA. PE people in the agency would read my comments in the press and if I was advocating for them, it was it

11:51
was a it was really important for them to see that. I think the other thing is especially in a crisis

11:58
is it's really important to speak honestly about the severity of the issues because when you do that you take

Honesty Concerning The Severity Of The Crisis

12:06
you you gain credibility and you focus everybody on solutions. I think one of the worst things you could do is

12:11
downplay the severity of a situation. People have to know that you get it and if you get it and if you state honestly

12:18
that you get it, they understand that you're you're committing yourself to to fix it. Now, both of those things,

12:25
committing to the mission and committing to your leadership role within that mission, focuses on something that's bigger than you. And when you take your

12:32
eyes off yourself, I think you have a much much better ability to stay above

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the frame. Uh, and I, you know, I would just say, uh, especially in public

12:43
roles, um, you're often subjected to some really bad things. I mean other

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than just the risk and fear of failure um you can become subject to very

12:54
personal attacks, very difficult attacks. Some of them are completely untrue. Um those are very difficult

13:01
situations when you're in a a public or sort of quasi public situation.

13:07
But those situations have consistently sharpened my view of who I need to be as

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a leader. And they've often strengthened my resolve, ironically, to stand strong. I mean, they've also helped me affirm um

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the importance of being somebody who needs to be accountable uh uh again and

13:24
again to something that's bigger than myself. And when you can when you can keep your eye on the bigger mission, all

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of those secondary things kind of fall away to the degree that it's possible um

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because you're you're you're holding on to something bigger. in in your role at the SBA, people from both sides of the

Selection As Secretary Of Housing And Urban Development

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aisle talked extremely highly of you. Maybe after the fact, maybe not in the midst of it, but after the fact, people

13:48
really like the work you did. And you got thrown into another even tougher role, I'd say, right after that, serving

13:55
as the secretary for housing and urban development. Um, was that a change you

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saw coming or was that thrown at you or why did you even decide to make that jump?

14:07
Well, so a couple things. First of all, um I did actually people on the other side of the aisle did come out and

14:13
support me for the HUD job. It's one of the reasons I got a I got uh confirmed so quickly and I was confirmed unanimously. Uh John Kerry was the head

14:20
of my oversight committee in the Senate. Dick Durban was the head of my appropriations committee in the Senate and both of them went to Senate

14:26
leadership at the time which was Democrat and said please get him confirmed quickly. It was it was just a

14:33
tremendous uh bit of gratitude that I had and I was very different from both of them politically. They knew from a

14:39
policy perspective I had very different views but we always worked with their people very closely when we were

14:45
addressing these things. So that's number one. Uh number two I was um I was

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not a traditional choice for HUD secretary. I didn't have a poverty housing background. It really wasn't uh

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a lot of the unique uh programs that HUD um had were not things that I was I was

15:05
particularly familiar with, but I was I was I sort of checked some very unique

A Square Peg For A Square Hole

15:10
boxes and as a result I was sort of a square peg for a square hole at that point in time because the housing crisis

15:18
was exploding. The housing crisis was very much about the mortgage market.

15:23
Well, I had been an investment banker for many years and I'd been a CFO. So the whole idea of mortgages and

15:29
securizations and how those were sold in the market, the credit risks and the risks to the market, all of those were

15:36
the kinds of things that I did have a background in. Uh so as a result I stepped into that. Number two is I had

15:43
just run an agency in crisis in national crisis. And so I had been tested

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um in my uh uh in my work as a um

15:56
somebody who drove deep change, operational change at the SBA. We really

16:01
restructured all the processes. We improved technology. we we we really kind of turned the place upside down to

16:08
um get it get to a place where we performing well. So, I'd had this experience getting my hands dirty in a

16:15
federal agency uh with all kinds of um uh challenges

16:20
and difficulties. And um and then the third piece was I, you know, I I'd had

16:26
to do a lot of media, frankly. It had to be a public person uh representing the administration and being able to

16:34
talk about um the issues uh the need h how how to address those issues uh uh

16:42
and how to be in the middle of working groups across stakeholders to bring

16:47
forward solutions. So it was um for that point in time I you know it was

16:53
something that I had sort of been battle tested on in a number of fronts and um

16:58
and and and frankly I was known to Congress and I was known to the administration and all of that worked

17:04
worked well. After that period of serving, you became an adviser and a

Accepting The Goodwill Position

17:10
mentor to so many other people. And at some point, this opportunity of Goodwill came along. And one of the things I find

17:16
really interesting is just you would have had a really unique perspective now having gone through all of basically

17:24
that ' 06 to 2010 time frame serving people who really probably had been

17:30
benefiting from Goodwill. I know a lot more, but but you just had a really unique view. So what interested you

17:36
about the role at Goodwill and its mission and what they were doing? Yeah, that's an that's an interesting

17:41
connection point. Uh the end recipients of some of those services are probably end recipients of of Goodwill services.

17:49
So this is something um that was embedded in me for many years when I was

17:55
a um a young banker uh in New York City, single guy. Um, I spent my weekends uh

18:03
working with young people in tough neighborhoods, uh, tutoring them, uh,

18:09
being a mentor to a couple of them, and then ultimately leadership of a couple programs that served uh, young people in

18:15
those communities. And in almost all of those cases, the focus was to help those

18:21
children and teens get the support they need, get the education they need, get the visibility into other possibilities

18:27
that they needed to help them. um be able to overcome their circumstances and

18:33
get on a different pathway. And um and it was just it was just such a you know

18:38
uh for me I just it was it was just sort of something I loved at the time because I loved being with kids and you know I

18:45
came from a big family and you know it was just it was just something I loved and that just fed my heart. Uh and

18:51
obviously I had a deep deep concern for those kids and wanted what was best for them. Well, you know, fast forward 15

18:58
years, uh, I was running the Department of Housing and Urban Development, which is really the federal agency that deals

19:06
most with poverty issues. And I felt like I saw what happened to many of those kids who weren't able to break out

19:13
of their circumstances. And they did end up um in intergenerational poverty. uh

19:18
they did end up in situations where they weren't able to take advantage of pathways to a different kind of future

19:24
than their um than their parents uh or other people in their communities had had. And it really um uh it it just um

19:36
impacted me greatly to see the degree of brokenness we have in our communities and sort of the degree of u despair and

19:45
and and and the lack of of vision that people have for what's possible in their

19:50
lives because they'd never had access. They'd never seen those pathways. they didn't have examples in their lives to

19:56
to help them make different kinds of decisions, whatever. And so when I came

20:01
out of the federal government and I I I went and as I mentioned before, I ran a couple of companies, most of my um

20:07
volunteer and sort of philanthropic energies were focused on adults with various challenges in life uh in

20:14
programs that help them move forward. And when I left the second company, I wrote a mission statement for myself.

Steve's Personal Mission Statement

20:21
And the mission statement said something like uh you know running a company that hires uh difficult to employ people um

20:30
uh so they can develop their their talents and and and and find a better pathway in life uh for the benefit of

20:36
themselves and their communities. I should probably memorize what I wrote uh so I so I can say it in a little bit uh

20:43
clearer way. But anyway, that's what it was. And it was really based on this huge burden I felt in my heart for those

20:49
people. And I talked to some private equity firms and could we buy a company? What if we did this? And I realized that

20:55
that it was going to be a very very difficult needle to thread. And then during that period of time,

21:02
probably a little over a year later, uh I got a call from an executive recruiter uh to run uh Goodwill. And I didn't

21:09
really know what Goodwill did. And so I said to the recruiter, like I don't think I really want to do that. And uh

21:16
it was sort of a mid-level person. And she hung up the phone. about it. Two weeks later, I got a call from the senior partner who said, "Actually, you

21:22
know, I've talked to you and I think this is exactly what you want to do and let me tell you a little bit about the

21:28
mission and I think you're just the right person for this." And I said, "Oh my goodness, like this is this is it,

21:34
you know." So, um, and so the interesting thing about the Goodwill job

21:40
is it is very much the mission that for years has weighed heavily on my heart.

21:48
Uh, so it's the thing I care about so much. On the other hand, I love running

21:53
organizations. I love complex business issues. I that that's kind of what I've done. It's the stuff of what I love to

21:59
do. And so Goodwill is a big complicated organization, right? We've got 153 local

22:06
Goodwill organizations. They're all independent. I run the umbrella group that tries to support all of those

22:12
organizations in any number of ways through training and curriculum and technology and funding and and um best

22:19
practices to improve what they're doing. And it's it's just a really interesting job and uh and it just all came together

22:27
for me in a way that was really powerful. Wow. One of the things I've heard you talk about related to goodwill and and

Employment As A Redemptive Force

22:34
I've read some articles is you talk a lot about how employment can be a redemptive force um and how you're

22:41
restoring dignity through work such unique ways. Talk to our audience about

22:46
why that's even important and how as leaders it's more than just the bottom

22:52
line and how actually other decisions can impact the bottom line in some really positive ways.

22:57
Yeah. Well, so we all focus on economic mobility and resources sort of at the

23:04
outset because um about 84% of the people that we serve have a high school degree or less. Many of them are very

23:10
low uh income uh individuals and helping them get on a different pathway

23:16
financially means a lot for them, their families and and and broadly even for

23:22
the community that they live in. So that it we we do we do understand that but work means so much more to people. Work

23:30
is a place where we have an opportunity to be productive and to contribute our

23:36
gifts and our efforts to something that's meaningful. Uh work is a place very importantly especially in our

23:42
culture today where we find community and so many of the people that we serve don't have the right kind of community

23:48
and it's a way that you can connect with people uh in in a meaningful way. It's also very importantly a place uh where

23:56
we can develop those gifts where we can see uh a different kind of future and and and and have goals for what it would

24:03
to to achieve greater things. Uh and ultimately I think when we put all that together it really is a critical way to

24:12
advance human flourishing and I think that's what we all want right that's what I want you know I want

24:17
to flourish in life and and and and I know for me uh what I do in my work is

24:24
really an essential component to that there's so much in me that comes alive in this work and when I talk to our I

24:30
mean I have so many wonderful opportunities to talk to people that have been through their pro our programs A few weeks ago, I I I did did uh six

24:38
video interviews with people. I think five of them had been come come through incarceration, very dark backgrounds.

24:45
And when when I listened to them say, "This is what my life was before.

24:50
This is what it meant for me to get a different vision in life and get the support each step of the way to break

24:58
through all those barriers, whether they were addiction, whether they were bad behaviors, whether they were whatever,

25:03
to break through those barriers and find a like a different vision for my life.

25:08
You realize that as human beings, those people are in fundamentally different places. and the level of gratitude and

25:15
hope and excitement that they have for their lives is is just so palpable. And

25:21
uh I got to tell you the those types of engagements are just absolutely uh fuel

25:28
in my tank. I mean Goodwill impacts many millions of

Dealing With The Pressures Of Impacting Millions Of People

25:33
people each year. I'm not sure how many people maybe maybe you know that between staff and also between the customers you

25:40
serve but but it's somewhere that touches people all around the world especially here in the US and and one of

25:46
the things that I'm curious about is that's a lot of pressure on you um that's pretty weighty to think that

25:51
you're having an impact on the lives of millions of people when you think through the impact you're trying to make

25:58
on all of these people. um what kind of weight does that carry and how does it

26:03
help you with decision- making? Yeah, so it carries with it a weight, it's sort of a blessed weight because

26:10
it's a weight that um is supported by a vision of opportunity, right? Uh and so

26:17
when when when I when I look at what's possible, it carries with it a huge weight, but it also carries with it um

26:25
just an incredible amount of motivation and excitement about what's possible. many many impediments to getting to

26:31
those places, but that's kind of what what we're all here to do. The other thing I'd say is the services are

26:38
delivered through 153 local organizations across US and Canada. Each

26:43
one of them has a CEO. Each one of them has a mission leader and those are the people that carry the balls on the front

26:50
lines. And so I'm not in this journey alone. In fact, I don't deliver any of those things. They're the ones that

26:55
deliver them on the front line. And my job is to lock arms at every one of those people and do what I can do from a

27:03
national level uh and a central level to tr to try to bring them all the right

27:08
kinds of support and technology and funding and and the things to help them do the great things they do on the

27:13
ground. So it's sometimes it can feel like a lonely place but but most of the time it feels like I have just

27:21
a a legion of partners and and when I look at at you know when I think about

27:26
those individuals every day and realize that those are the ones that I'm that are I'm serving directly so that they

27:33
can then serve effectively the people they serve. It's um it gives a face to pretty much everything I do. So

Building Trust In People, Teams, and Leadership

27:41
throughout your career, you've jumped into these roles where you're helping set a lot of strategy and helping set

27:48
direction, but it's completely dependent on all the amazing leaders around you, right? Especially here with all of these

27:55
local leaders having to implement uh and really you listen to what they want to

28:00
implement and work together on all of that. How do you build trust among teams

28:05
and among leadership and and as there's so many different visions that people might have? How do you help those come

28:11
to life? Yeah. Well, trust trust is complicated and trust can be elusive and so uh and

28:19
trust is different based on the on where you're building it. Um I think there are a couple of things. So I have my own

28:25
team of direct reports that are that are working with me on on driving a lot of these capabilities. reason that I

28:30
mentioned 153 um local goodwills. Um

28:36
there are a number of ways I think is for both groups. They need to see me out front. They need to see me leading out

28:43
of the right place. And they also need to see me willing to run to the fire instead of away from it. And we have a

28:49
lot of fires that we need to run into. So I need to make sure that people have

28:55
confidence in who I am and how I lead and they build trust in that. I think a

29:01
really important part of that is they need to see my heart. Uh they they need to see why I lead. They need to know why

29:09
I am here. Um people will give you a lot of grace for your imperfections and I got a lot of them. But if they believe

29:17
in your motives and why you're here and they believe in your competency, I do

29:22
believe that's important. Um they will they will line up with you. Uh and the

29:28
other thing is uh I have found that people need to see you in the trenches

29:34
with them. They want to know that I want them to succeed. They want to know that

29:39
I have their back. They want to know that I will go to work for them. And uh

29:44
this it's really one of the first um

29:50
kind of epiphies I had when I went into the federal government because in a lot of those roles uh the leaders in federal

29:56
agencies are very kind of elevated in the minds of people. I it's not like you

30:02
walk into a room and everybody's saying hi Steve let me high-five you. I mean like it's people would talk about me in

30:07
the third person when I was sitting next to them in meetings. It was crazy. And I remember saying to somebody like,"I

30:14
don't quite get this, right? I'm used to first names, etc., etc. Do I do I like do I need to kind of own this elevated

30:21
thing or how do how do I do this?" Right? And the advice I got was uh you

30:27
got to own the position because people take confidence in the position and they need to know that the person the

30:32
position um which is a position of power and a position of authority um owns it. But my

30:40
for me it was important personally for me to go to people in a very um real productive

30:50
engaged place. So for example when I went into the SBA and we had to redesign

30:55
all of the workflows in a really kind of you know granular way. It was a lot of hard work a lot of complicated stuff. I

31:02
called a three-day working session uh after doing a lot of ground work and uh

31:07
people were like you don't need to go to it. Nobody's nobody's going to think you're going to go to it. Yeah. Are you kidding me? Like I got to be in that

31:14
room. I'm going to be doing the little yellow sticky notes for the for the uh for the idea panels and I'm going to be

31:19
right in the middle of it. I like a I want to know and b like this is what

31:26
we're about as a team. So building trust I think requires a lot of different

31:31
things. Sometimes it's it's specific to the audience. Sometimes it's specific to the situation. But I think those are

31:37
those are some of the elements that I've I've experienced. Uh I think most most strongly

31:43
th this might be a hard question and you can take it anywhere you want, but a lot of the people listening are people who

Advice For Developing Leadership Capabilities

31:49
are trying to grow in their leadership capabilities and you're giving tons of good actionable insights that if people

31:55
grasp on uh there's some some real golden nuggets in here. But for people

32:00
who are just like, uh, you're saying I have influence, you're saying this is how you lead, but you've been successful

32:06
everywhere you've gone. How how do I lead? What's the first step look like?

32:12
What advice would you give somebody who's trying to really develop their leadership capabilities in their local

32:18
community or in the role or leading whatever they're leading? Yeah, I think that's a great question and um it's it's

32:25
pretty easy to, you know, give these thoughts when you've been at the top of

32:31
organizations for a period of time because it's a particular uh it's a particular spot with a particular set of

32:37
needs. Um I was a CFO for many years. I

32:42
was even, you know, I was the level below that uh for for a period of time. And so um uh so I've definitely been in

32:50
those positions where I've had to grapple with this issue. And now as a leader of an organization, I know it's

32:56
important for the people in those positions uh because I I you know they're on my teams. So I would say a

33:02
number of things. Never never underestimate the impact you can have, right? Never underestimate the impact of

33:08
your leadership in terms of giving a message to the people that you lead. even if you're a couple levels uh

33:14
further down the organization to the people that are uh counterparts that

33:19
maybe are at the same level of you in an organization but maybe have different jobs. Standing up for the right things, giving

33:26
the right messages uh you know um uh leading with the right kind of behaviors

33:32
is something that is infectious. people take their um people take their lead

33:38
from the behaviors of other people around them and sometimes uh when you're

33:44
not in that top job those I think those types of leadership capabilities are

33:50
even more profound. The biggest challenges I've had uh over the years as a leader is have been when people a

33:56
level or two down in the organization uh are not exhibiting the right values or the right behaviors or the right

34:02
accountabilities and that's where stuff starts to fall apart because as the leader it's hard to get visibility. It's

34:09
where organizations break and so never underestimate uh what you the impact you

34:14
can have and never underestimate that other people see that and that all

34:20
throughout the organization how that will build confidence uh in you. Um so I

34:26
think that's really important. The other thing I would say is look to the people

34:31
above you and look to them at what they need and put yourself in their position

34:38
and say, "What does that person need from me?" Not just in terms of a work product or an outcome, but advice.