Certainty and Obedience

0:00
I said, 'You know, it's interesting. We

0:01
don't have to be certain about sin to do

0:03
it, but we somehow we have to be certain

0:06
about about obedience to do it. I think

0:09
the need for certainty is the enemy of

0:12
obedience.

Introducing Clare De Graaf

0:18
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

0:21
we welcome Claire Degraphth. Clare is a

0:23
former entrepreneur who built and scaled

0:25
a manufacturing company only to have his

0:27
definition of success completely

0:29
dismantled by a cancer diagnosis that

0:31
forced him to confront what he truly

0:33
believed. After selling his company to a

0:36
publicly traded company, he made a

0:37
series of decisions to give away the

0:39
majority of his wealth, intentionally

0:41
limiting his lifestyle, and spending the

0:43
last four decades helping start and fund

0:45
venture capital ministry. He's the

0:47
author of the 10-second rule, a simple

0:49
but deeply convicting framework for

0:51
everyday obedience. and his work

0:52
consistently challenges people to

0:54
rethink materialism, generosity, and

0:56
what it actually means to follow Jesus.

Welcome Clare De Graaf

0:59
Claire, thank you for joining us on the

1:01
Servant Leadership Podcast.

Clare's Business Background

1:03
Thanks, Chris.

1:04
I'm so excited. I've had you speak at an

1:06
event before many years ago, and people

1:09
still talk about your story. One of the

1:12
things that they talk about is how you

1:14
had such a unique business experience

1:17
getting involved in business early or

1:20
starting businesses early and how you

1:22
grew something pretty substantial.

Clare's Childhood and Drive

1:24
Can you talk a little bit about your

1:26
childhood and where your business drive

1:29
came from and then maybe a little bit

1:31
more about what you went on to build?

1:34
Yeah, my um I was raised in a great

1:37
Christian family. I went to church twice

1:39
on Sunday. Went to Christian schools all

1:41
of my life. Um, believed the Bible to be

1:45
true. I had great parents. I tell people

1:48
the only gripe I have with my parents is

1:50
I can't blame my dysfunctions on them.

1:52
They're they were really nice people,

1:55
but they were simple people. My dad uh

1:57
quit dropped out of school in 10th grade

2:00
to to join the Navy World War II. Um,

2:03
and uh and so he was in the building

2:07
business. And in the recession of 1957

2:10
or 58, I was 10 years old at the time,

2:14
uh, he went bankrupt and we lost our

2:17
house. And so we had to go to work for

2:20
my grandfather in a small machine shop

2:22
that my grandfather owned with my uncle

2:25
called Gordon Manufacturing Company. And

2:28
they just had, I don't know, 10

2:29
employees, something like that. And um,

2:32
at the time they made these screws that

2:35
made office chairs go up and down. So,

2:37
in the olden days, you had a screw and a

2:40
nut that you had to adjust to make the

2:41
the chair go up and down. And that's

2:43
primarily what we made for a number of

2:45
different manufacturers, but my dad

2:47
didn't own any part of it at all. Um,

2:51
and he just worked as a machinist in the

2:53
factory. But I noticed that they

2:56
struggled financially even though they

2:59
did everything to hide protect our kids,

3:01
the kids from uh um what they were going

3:05
through. Um, but they would be sitting

3:07
there every week trying to figure out

3:09
how to make $5 work. And I thought to

3:13
myself, sometime in seventh or eighth

3:16
grade, I'm going to be rich someday, so

3:17
I never have to even think about money.

3:20
And um, and it was kind of a foreign

3:23
concept to my parents cuz they're not

3:26
aggressive or greedy or anything, but I

3:29
was. And I began to just daydream about

3:32
having private jet money. I mean, I was,

3:35
you know, Yeah. Oh, yeah. And, you know,

3:38
I began to uh shovel driveways and cut

3:41
grass in the summer and sell things

3:44
doortodoor. I did everything I could to

3:46
earn money. Then I would invest it. Um

3:49
had a I was trading stocks in 10th grade

3:51
at Murland First, Penn Smith, and just

3:54
hanging out with all these rich guys. At

3:56
the time it was like auditorium seating

3:58
where you just sat with with with people

4:01
and watch the ticker tape quotations on

4:05
come by and I would just watch these

4:08
guys and see once how did they enter a

4:10
room, how did they handle a fork when

4:12
they ate, how did they talk about I mean

4:14
I wanted to be how did they dress? I

4:16
wanted to be just like them and and

4:19
unfortunately I did actually become just

4:22
like them, you know. So I joined Boy

4:23
Scouts and and uh and within four years

4:27
I was an Eagle Scout and so I was just

4:30
the original Yepy before there was

4:31
actually a term. Um but I just had these

4:34
visions of sugar plums dancing in my

4:37
head. And when I was in 10th grade, my

4:41
grandfather died. The business was not

4:43
going all that well. So my dad had a

4:45
chance to buy the whole business for

4:47
10,000 bucks, $500 down because the

4:51
business wasn't doing that well. that

4:53
what he but he and my mother um she quit

4:56
her job as a clean lady for the Zanderan

4:58
family and she and and my mother and he

5:02
um managed to turn the business around

5:05
and to grow it a little bit and to where

5:08
by the time I was in college we had

5:11
probably 20 employees 22 employees

5:13
something like that he was making 25,000

5:17
bucks a year which was beyond his

5:19
wildest dreams and so he didn't want. He

5:23
didn't really want much more. He was

5:25
very content, but that 25,000 would not

5:28
get me private jet money. So, I was I

5:30
was I had a severe sin issue at the

5:34
time. I just didn't know it was sin. I

5:37
just thought it was being all American

5:39
and kind of capitalism and and Dutch

5:42
work ethic and Calvinist work ethic. So,

5:45
anyway, um uh I began to work in the

5:48
business part-time even while I was in

5:50
high school.

Clare's Business Success

5:52
and uh and college. Got married when I

5:54
was 19 uh to my high school sweetheart.

5:58
We were married 30 57 years now. And uh

6:02
and so my father um I said to my dad,

6:07
you know, we're never going to get him

6:08
while we're this job shop thing because

6:10
we could win or lose a contract for half

6:12
a penny for these screws. And I said,

6:16
"We need a product of our own." Like

6:18
these tilt mechanisms that go underneath

6:20
the chairs. We we provided the screw,

6:22
but the mechanism underneath the chairs

6:24
are like six or seven bucks, and the

6:26
screw is 65 cents, so that's where the

6:29
money is. And he said, "Well, that's

6:30
fine, but we don't have a product like

6:32
that." So when I was a senior at Kelvin,

6:35
I got my first patent on a tilt

6:38
mechanism that eventually became the

6:40
largest selling mechanism in North

6:42
America. But my dad really never lived

6:44
to see the success of it because he had

6:47
lung cancer. He was a smoker and died at

6:50
47. And I took over the business while I

6:53
was still just out of college. And um

6:57
and just gave it my all for 10 years.

6:59
And so by the time I was 31 years old,

7:03
we had 175 employees, you know, um um no

7:08
debt. I was vacationing in Europe weeks

7:10
at a time at a cottage in Lake Michigan

7:13
we paid cash for and you know life was

7:16
exactly where I wanted it and then I

7:20
found out a few days before I was 31

7:22
years old that I had non-hodkins

7:24
lymphoma and the doctor said you

7:27
probably won't see your 40th birthday

Clare's Spiritual Awakening

7:30
and that really caused me to begin

7:34
assessing where I was spiritually

7:37
because I knew there were people people

7:38
in church were really turned on to Jesus

7:40
in a way that I wasn't. They all they

7:40
had these big zippered Bibles and they

7:44
were always hugging people and praising

7:46
the Lord and and I just thought they

7:48
were like the Eagle Scouts of

7:49
Christianity. Good for them. I just

7:50
didn't see the point. I didn't need box

7:52
seats in heaven. How bad can the

7:53
bleachers be? I was in, you know, and um

7:56
but as the weeks went by, I

8:01
um I started to think maybe what they

8:04
have is the real thing and what I've

8:06
been doing is playing at this thing

8:08
called religion

8:10
and maybe that's what it really looks

8:12
like. So I went to pastor friend of mine

8:13
and I said, "What do they have that I

8:15
don't have? They've got a relationship

8:17
with Jesus Christ." Well, okay. I've

8:20
heard about that, but how does that

8:21
happen? and he's lives in heaven in a

8:23
galaxy far far away. I how do how can I

8:26
get to know him? So he said, "Here's

8:28
what I want you to do. I want you to

8:30
read the Bible. Read the book of Luke a

8:32
chapter a day for the next month."

8:34
There's 28 chapters in Luke. Come back

8:38
the next month. But before you do, I

8:39
want you to pray this prayer every day.

8:42
God, teach me everything you want me to

8:43
know and give me the courage to live it,

8:46
to obey what you said. And he said,

8:49
'Well, come back in a month and tell me

8:51
what you found out. It didn't take a

8:52
month. Inside of two weeks, the kind of

8:55
person that Jesus described as one of

8:56
his followers bore no relationship to me

8:59
whatsoever.

9:00
I was the proverbial rich young ruler

9:04
just sniffing around the trap trying to

9:06
find plan B, a less costly, less

9:09
intrusive way to follow Jesus than

9:11
actually obeying Jesus. And of course,

9:14
there isn't. And uh but I spent 6 months

9:17
really trying to figure out plan B. And

9:21
finally one February morning I said to I

9:25
knew that I was about to sign what I now

9:28
refer to as a blank check to Jesus.

9:31
And that scared the wit out of me. I've

9:33
never done that in my life. But it I

9:36
knew that once I signed it, I would

9:39
depend on Jesus to actually um put in

9:43
the amount. And I no sooner did that

9:47
than I had an insatiable appetite for

9:50
scripture.

Clare's New Path

9:52
Um I began to pre present what I learned

9:55
from to other business people and they

9:57
would get excited about it. And so after

10:00
about four years, my leadership team at

10:02
the company came to me and said, "You

10:03
know, you own 94% of the company. It's

10:06
too big for us to buy. We think you

10:08
ought to sell the company because your

10:10
head's not in here anymore. All you

10:13
think about is Jesus." And they were

10:14
actually right. So at age 1984, 35 years

10:18
old, I sold the company to a company

10:21
called Liot and Plat on the New York

10:22
Stock Exchange. And um so life's been

10:27
interesting ever since. It's been 40

10:29
years, a little 41 years since I sold

10:32
the company. I didn't plan on living

10:33
this long. And people said, "If you knew

10:35
you're going to live this long, would

10:35
you have sold the company?" I don't

10:38
know. I can't say that. But I think God

10:41
knew the answer to that question. And

10:42
that's all that really matters.

Reflecting on Wealth

10:45
What a crazy journey.

10:48
Even so I I have questions about that

10:51
journey, but even talk about when you

10:53
sold the company because most people

10:54
when they sell a company and you had

10:56
private jet money at this point, you you

10:58
had a lot of money, but you started to

11:01
realize that money didn't necessarily

11:04
scratch the itch, if you will. Talk

11:06
about what that journey was look like

11:08
selling the company and realizing you

11:10
don't really have to work anymore.

Foundation and Venture Ministry

11:13
Well, yeah. So, one of the things we

11:16
did, which was I still can't believe

11:18
that we did it, is that it scared me to

11:21
death because I we I owned Wall Street

11:24
Journal said that I owned 5.1% of a

11:26
company on the New York Stock Exchange.

11:28
So, we donated the majority of the sales

11:30
to a foundation to paint ourselves into

11:33
a corner. So, we didn't have all that

11:35
money available to use on oursel. So, we

11:39
started a foundation that today has

11:41
still has more net worth than we have.

11:44
And um and that foundation we've used um

11:49
to fund what I call venture capital

11:51
ministry. So, we don't write a whole

11:53
bunch of checks to other 501c3s.

11:56
The Lord will bring to my wife or I an

11:58
idea or a person that we really believe

12:01
in that wants to start this ministry or

12:04
just a small ministry. And once we

12:06
decide to to help them, we kind of go

12:08
all in. So I had an office for many

12:11
years with spare offices and computers.

12:15
And so we'd let them use our offices,

12:18
use our copers, so they didn't have to

12:20
spend money doing that. And we'd

12:22
actually pay their salaries for the

12:24
first couple of years so they could

12:25
actually do what they're going to do.

12:26
and we'd kind of get them up and running

12:28
and then work out a plan over the next

12:31
five to you know three to five years to

12:34
to exit u being financially involved

12:37
with us and then we'd pray for the God's

12:39
next assignment. So God has allowed us

12:41
to begin substantially be involved in

12:45
five or six different ministries and and

12:49
my office did a lot of the back office.

12:51
So, my assistant um would register

12:54
websites. We'd handle my attorney would

12:57
handle legal expenses. Um we'd set up a

13:00
501c3 for them. So, all the stuff that

13:03
founders don't know how to do. And so,

13:05
that appealed to my entrepreneurial

13:08
skills because I like starting things

13:10
and I knew how to start things and um

13:13
and I could connect with people, but I

13:15
didn't run most of these ministries. So

13:17
any of them that were successful, it's

13:19
because I've Lord brought me somebody

13:22
who is incredibly capable, incredibly

13:25
spiritual and and I just came alongside

13:28
of them. I was usually the chairman of

13:30
the board, organized their the the board

13:33
and everything else and then exit after

13:35
3 to 5 years. So that was it appealed to

13:38
me rather than just writing checks to a

13:40
bunch of ministries and going to a bunch

13:42
of banquetss and founders presidents

13:45
weekends kind of stuff. that doesn't so

13:47
we don't write a lot of checks to to

13:49
other 5013C

Living with Purpose

13:51
ministries. So that's that's kept me

13:55
fresh after all of these years that that

13:55
as I said I painted myself in a corner

14:02
so that we didn't have too much money

14:06
and um and it allowed me to fund a lot

14:10
of ministries. So, I've had I tell

14:12
people people say, "Oh, it's so nice,

14:14
Claire. You sold your business and you

14:16
volunteer for the Lord." And I said,

14:17
"Hey, I get up almost every morning

14:20
doing exactly what I want." And I have

14:23
rarely worried about finances. There are

14:26
people who sacrifice for Jesus. I'm just

14:28
not one of them. So,

Obedience and Generosity

14:31
I mean, even that decision that you made

14:34
to put that money into a foundation is a

14:37
really big decision, especially when you

14:39
consider the value there might be higher

14:41
than your net worth personally. That

14:43
takes a lot of obedience. And I've heard

14:45
you talk about obedience. Talk about the

14:47
journey of how you even got to that

14:49
point because people listening to this

14:51
are probably thinking you're crazy or

14:54
you didn't keep enough. Um, and talk

14:57
about how how you got to the point where

14:59
you felt good about it.

15:01
You know, I don't really recall,

15:02
frankly. Uh we were um we were my wife

15:05
and I had only been serious followers of

15:07
Jesus for like three or four years at

15:09
the time. But but I noticed that a lot

15:13
of the guys successful men in our

15:15
community who had tons of money just end

15:18
up buying condos and and places out west

15:21
and boats and they could never actually

15:23
serve in local churches cuz they're

15:25
never home. They were gone all winter in

15:27
in Naples and stuff like that. And I

15:29
said that can't be a good thing. I can't

15:31
imagine that God wants us to have so

15:34
much money that we can't actually be

15:35
available for God. That just seems

15:38
that just didn't make sense to me. So,

15:41
um I didn't I don't recall ever talking

15:44
to anybody about this. We just thought

15:47
it was pretty good thing. If if it all

15:49
belongs to God,

15:51
then I don't have the option to use it

15:54
for myself.

15:56
I mean, I I mean, obviously a certain

15:58
amount we do. Um, I'll use this example.

16:01
If we are Christ's ambassador,

16:05
the question should really be is what um

16:08
what does it take to keep my embassy

16:10
open?

16:12
And um in fact, I gave a talk one time

16:15
to um a group of men up at a golf resort

16:20
for Focus on the Family. They had about

16:22
70 of their big-time donors out. And so

16:24
Jim Daly asked me if I would do the

16:27
morning talk. And so I I said, "Well,

16:29
how much is enough?" That's the name of

16:30
my talk. and uh and and they and I just

16:35
talked about we my wife and I set a

16:37
finish line of how much we wanted to

16:40
live on and how much net worth we

16:43
actually needed and u based on Ron

16:46
Blue's um book generous living and um we

16:51
had heard him talk uh like 25 years ago

16:54
and so I just told him this is our

16:56
journey and when I got done one of the

16:58
guys raised his hand he said well how in

17:00
the how in the world can you know How

17:02
much is enough? I mean, really with any

17:04
certainty. And I said, you know, guys,

17:06
this is not my first rodeo. I mean, all

17:09
of you guys ran companies or had

17:11
practices or sit on ministry boards and

17:14
I don't think you had any problem

17:15
figuring out how much is enough for all

17:16
the people who work for you, but somehow

17:18
for yourself, this is some unknowable

17:20
mystery of the universe really.

17:24
And then so one guy said, "Well, that's

17:26
easy for you to say. You don't have to

17:27
work for a living anymore." And I said,

17:29
I doubt whether there's anybody in this

17:31
room except if you work for Focused on

17:32
Family who is working for a living

17:35
anymore. You're working for a lifestyle

17:37
or just because you enjoy it, but you're

17:39
not working for a living. So, let's not

17:41
hide behind that skirt. So, I never got

17:44
invited back and you can tell why.

The 10-Second Rule

17:47
Well, talk about I know you have the

17:49
10-second rule as something that you

17:52
developed over time. Talk about how that

17:53
became a thing.

17:56
Well, it wasn't my idea. Actually, a

17:58
pastor um in China came back to it came

18:02
end up in Grand Rapids where I live and

18:05
he spoke and he talked about the 10-cond

18:07
rule and he said, "I just noticed how

18:09
many times I would have this impression

18:11
to do something good for someone or to

18:14
keep from doing something I knew was

18:16
sinful. And if I waited too long, the

18:20
moment would pass." And I realized what

18:23
I was doing is I was actually training

18:25
myself to be disobedient because I

18:27
noticed that obedience always cost me

18:29
something. Time, money, embarrassment,

18:32
something. But disobedience saved me all

18:36
of that, at least in the short run. And

18:39
so he said, "The only way I could train

18:41
myself to be obedient is start to obey

18:42
the 10-second rule." And uh I said,

18:45
"What's that?" and he said, "Just do the

18:47
next thing you're reasonably certain

18:49
Jesus wants you to do, and don't

18:51
overthink it." Now, my disclaimer is

18:54
don't ever use the 10-second rule to

18:56
decide who you're going to marry,

18:58
investments, um, uh, you know,

19:01
ministries you're going to be involved

19:02
in. I mean th those take um fasting,

19:07
prayer, good godly counsel and uh and

19:10
time. But it's for those everyday

19:13
pedestrian kinds of things where we

19:16
sense from God, I ought to actually do

19:18
this for this person. And then if we

19:21
don't, the moment usually passes and

19:25
we're kind of glad it passes because we

19:28
can move on with our life. And so I

19:30
think it's it's kind of like when Paul

19:32
says, "Train yourself in godliness.

19:36
If I was going to run in the Boston

19:38
Marathon, I couldn't just read a book

19:40
about it and with a bag of potato chips

19:42
laying on a couch. I'd actually have to

19:44
get up and run and I might for the first

19:47
week I'd probably only make it around

19:49
the block and then the next, you know,

19:51
but if I did these little things to

19:53
begin training for it, eventually I

19:55
might end up running the Boston

19:57
Marathon. And so I I call the 10-cond

20:00
rule obedience for dummies. And it's

20:03
just a place to begin when you know

20:06
you've you've had a habit of saying no

20:09
to God in little things. Because if we

20:12
say no to God in little things, why

20:14
would he ever entrust us for bigger

20:16
things?

Encouraging First Steps

20:18
Wow.

20:19
A lot of people hear that and they might

20:22
think that's good for somebody else and

20:24
they might immediately think of five

20:25
people who they're very close with who

20:25
need to apply that themselves and they

20:28
might not realize how they should apply

20:30
it. When you encourage people and talk

20:33
to them, how do you tell them to take

20:35
the first step? I because it sounds so

20:37
simple but yet it's probably hard for a

20:39
lot of people to actually do that.

20:41
Yeah. So I ask them why wouldn't you

20:43
take the first step? I mean, if it's

20:45
something little, uh you you know that

20:47
you see somebody struggling on the you

20:50
know, you're in your car and they're

20:51
struggling with something on the side of

20:53
the road, why wouldn't you stop? Um uh

20:56
if it's if it's um a person that you

21:00
having trouble in a in the checkout line

21:02
at a supermarket and they their credit

21:05
card get bounced, why wouldn't you help

21:07
them? I mean, if you can. And so that's

21:10
the real question is that why wouldn't

21:12
we actually help?

21:14
And and the truth of the matter is

21:16
because we don't want to be bothered.

21:19
And and ob disobedience

21:22
has become a habit for most Christians.

21:25
And the only way to begin to be obedient

21:27
is to begin being obedient with little

21:29
things. And as you do, I've had people

21:32
who have eventually made career choices

21:34
because they started out just being

21:36
obedient in little things. And pretty

21:38
soon they found that they could trust

21:40
God to provide guidance, wisdom, and uh

21:45
and so yeah, that's the big thing. I'd

21:47
ask people, why wouldn't you be

21:48
obedient? And and and they say, well,

21:51
you know, I'm not certain, you know, I

21:54
said, you know, it's interesting. We

21:55
don't have to be certain about sin to do

21:57
it, but somehow we have to be certain

22:00
about about obedience to do it. I think

22:03
the need for certainty is the enemy of

22:05
obedience.

Certainty and Obedience

22:07
And um and I I put that statement

22:10
several times in the book. And so as a

22:13
when people say, "Well, are you sure you

22:15
get these impressions from God? They're

22:16
from the Holy Spirit." I said, "No, I'm

22:18
not sure." I wouldn't actually dare

22:21
stamp thus sayeth the Lord on anything

22:24
outside of scripture.

22:26
But when we're talking about these

22:28
little bitty things, let's just say I

22:29
help somebody with their groceries. Um

22:33
how can that not be the will of God? I

22:35
can't believe someday Jesus is going to

22:36
say, "I can't believe you helped those

22:38
people with groceries. You go to the

22:40
back of the line." Really? You know, so

22:43
I just think we should not overthink

22:45
obedience. And it should just become a

22:48
habit.

Servant Leadership and Obedience

22:49
It's interesting. We talk a lot about

22:51
servant leadership on this podcast. And

22:54
o

22:55
over the years, I don't think obedience

22:57
has come up as something that is so

22:59
important for being a servant leader.

23:01
But when you think about that,

23:03
it's it's so obvious, right?

23:06
That's that's a funny concept. When you

23:09
think through servant leadership, what

23:11
lens do you think through like how does

23:14
obedience tie to it? Or is it just that

23:16
is being a servant leader is being

23:17
obedient?

Clare's Leadership Insights

23:19
Well, you know, in some quarters you

23:21
think of that as an oxymoron as a

23:23
servant leader. And um but my the litmus

23:27
test I give for servant leadership is

23:30
would anyone follow you if they didn't

23:32
have to?

23:33
Now I say that because if you're a

23:35
general in the army, you can make people

23:37
follow you or otherwise they have to

23:38
they go to the brrig or they get shot or

23:41
something else. But whether you are in

23:44
your family or whether you're in a

23:46
company, would people follow you if they

23:48
didn't have to simply because they trust

23:50
you as a person? And that knowing that

23:53
you could make a mistake, but that your

23:55
heart is such that they trust you to

23:59
make decisions even if they're wrong

24:02
because they trust your motive and they

24:03
trust your heart. So that's that to me

24:06
is the litmus test of a servant leader.

24:09
And it isn't it isn't kind of what they

24:11
do or don't do kind of thing. It's how

24:13
you do it and how do you win the

24:15
confidence of the people you lead. I one

24:18
time told a group that um uh that I led

24:22
um we had about 30 staff people and they

24:25
were not wild about um me stepping in

24:29
for another president of the

24:31
organization. I stepped in temporarily

24:34
and um and I could tell they were not

24:36
happy about it at all. So I gathered all

24:37
of them together in a lunchroom and said

24:41
um listen I want to tell you I want you

24:43
to give me 60 days to win your

24:45
confidence. I can't ask you for your

24:48
confidence because you can't by an act

24:50
of the will have confidence in me. It's

24:52
my job to earn your confidence. So one

24:55
guy said well how you going to do that?

24:57
I said I have no idea but I do

24:58
understand leadership to know that it's

25:01
my job to win your confidence. just give

25:03
me in 60 days so that I can help figure

25:08
this out. I can listen to you what needs

25:09
to be done in this organization and if

25:11
at the end of that time we'll take a

25:13
vote and if 75% of you don't want me to

25:16
stay, I'll quit the next day. So the

25:19
worst that'll happen is I'll be a leader

25:20
for 60 days. They said, "Well, okay."

25:24
And we got to that time and and I think

25:27
I got 79%. just snuck under the wire.

25:33
But I do understand I think what that

25:35
looks like and so let's not this idea of

25:38
servant leadership when we talk about

25:40
Jesus and that's I I understand all of

25:42
that but I I think it really means do

25:46
people trust that you will care for them

25:50
that you'll listen to them that you'll

25:52
take their opinions seriously and that

25:55
you have their good at heart.

Empathy in Leadership

25:59
Yeah, I' I've heard you give a talk on

26:01
empathy, too, and that reminds me of

26:03
just the importance of leading with

26:05
empathy um in in all that you're doing.

26:09
Well, one of the things that you

26:10
mentioned to me is that you're going to

26:13
be

New Book Discussion

26:15
coming out with a new book. I would

Book Audience Concerns

26:18
love for you to share what that's about

26:19
with our audience.

26:21
Well, the I don't know if anyone's ever

26:23
going to buy this book. So, because when

26:25
I did the 10-second rule, I had to

26:27
self-publish cuz I because I couldn't

26:29
find a publisher. They thought, "Who in

26:32
the world knows Clarity Graph outside of

26:34
West Michigan?" So, um I could never

26:38
find one. So, um um

Previous Book Success

26:41
did okay, actually. That one did pretty

26:44
good.

26:44
It It did okay. And um because I end up

26:47
selling books self-published and then I

26:49
end up getting an offer from Simon and

26:51
Schustster and so I sold the book. But

New Book Title Explanation

26:53
so I don't know if this book is even a

26:56
narrow audience because the title is a

26:59
rich the rich Christian's Bible. And in

27:01
the introduction I say that you probably

27:03
may not have noticed but the title is in

27:06
quotation marks because there's actually

27:09
if God owns everything there are no rich

27:12
Christians. We just think we are.

Book's Central Message

27:14
And uh the second part is that they

27:17
don't have their own Bible. Um uh but

27:19
whether you're rich or poor, each one of

27:23
us um look for verses and stories in in

27:27
the Bible that confirm what we want to

27:29
believe about ourselves and about life.

27:31
And we tend to dismiss those

27:34
inconvenient, costly ver pesky verses

27:37
that would that would keep us from the

27:39
kind of life that we want to live. And

27:42
uh and so every Christian ends up

27:43
believing their own version of the

27:46
Bible. And I I said then I've got the

27:48
same problem because when I write this

27:51
book I don't know what I don't know and

27:53
so you should test everything that I say

27:54
against scripture and not what

Concept of Stewardship

27:58
clarigraph says. So then it goes into

28:00
you know that whole idea of how much is

28:05
enough and um and how that affects how

28:07
we make decisions. In fact, you and I

28:09
were talking before we started. There

28:11
was a guy from Indiana and I spoke at a

28:13
group uh down there and one time they

28:16
asked, "How much should Christians give?

28:18
Is it 10%. Does it include Christian

28:21
school tuition? Is that just my church?"

28:23
Um, you know, of that kind of thing. And

28:25
I said, "Well, I think you're asking the

28:27
wrong question. So, the question you

28:30
have to ask is how much of what you own

28:32
belongs to God and how much belongs to

28:34
you?" M

28:36
and he said, 'Well, why does that

28:39
matter? And I said, 'Well, if it all

28:41
belongs to God, then the only question

28:43
is, what is he going to allow you to

28:47
live on to manage his resources?

Managing God's Resources

28:49
I said, I've got a really close friend

28:51
who manages billions of dollars for a

28:54
wealthy family here in West Michigan.

28:56
And if you ever went to them and said,

28:58
"How much of all the re money you've

29:01
given me to invest do you want back?"

29:02
They would neither laugh or cry over

29:05
that. It was want it all back. The only

29:06
question is what are we going to pay you

29:08
to manage our money and to keep our

29:12
office open. And so I said, you know, I

29:14
maybe that for some people that they

29:17
literally have to give away 90% because

29:20
it'd be bad stewardship to even keep 10.

29:22
So um I think we're just asking the

29:24
wrong question. So I get into that in

29:27
the book and and and but it's just so

29:29
counterintuitive

Western Christianity Critique

29:30
because

29:34
evangelical Christianity in the West is

29:37
some dangerous amalgam of Bible

29:38
doctrine,

29:41
uh church tradition, Calvinist work

29:45
ethic, um capitalism, democracy,

29:48
you know, where where we actually think

29:49
we're entitled to life, liberty, and the

29:52
pursuit of happiness. And Jesus actually

29:53
didn't promise any of that.

29:56
He just asked us to work for that on

29:59
behalf of other people, not ourselves.

30:01
And but but that whole idea is like,

30:03
whoa, what are you talking about?

30:04
Actually, I think I'm talking about what

30:07
Jesus is talking about. So now I'm an

30:09
imperfect practitioner of it. So I'm

30:12
better off in theory. I I have the same

30:14
problem everybody does. I like nice

30:18
things. And so um uh how many times have

30:21
I violated my own rule? too many times,

30:24
but it has been something that I've had

30:26
to think about and taught other people

30:29
to think about because I'm confident

30:32
it's true. If it all belongs to God and

30:34
we are his trustees,

Living as Trustees

30:37
then the only question is what will he

30:40
allow me to keep for my lifestyle and

30:42
all the rest should be returned to him

30:44
and not after we're dead. I'm not sure

30:46
we actually get credit for leaving money

30:49
after we're gone because it requires no

30:52
sacrifice. You know, David when he had

30:54
um when he was looking for a altar and

30:56
the guy offered to give it to him and he

30:58
said, "No, no, I can't do that. I'm not

30:59
going to give God something. It cost me

31:02
nothing." And the the widow and the and

31:04
the you know the pennies and the rich

31:07
guy and he and and Jesus said she gave

31:09
away more than the guy with a ton of

31:11
money. So, I'm not sure we get any

31:13
credit for money we leave after we die,

31:16
unless it's just, you know, that we died

31:18
unexpectedly or, you know, prematurely

31:22
or something. But I think that Jesus is

31:25
also very concerned about if it all

31:27
belongs to me, are you making it

31:30
available to me in your lifetime when

31:32
it's inconvenient for you when you might

31:34
have to say no to yourself?

Practical Application

31:37
Wow. How does somebody even take that

31:39
and do something with it? Because a lot

31:42
of people might feel like they're living

31:44
paycheck to paycheck or they're saving

31:46
but they've got a savings fund and they

31:48
they need to save as much as they can

31:50
cuz they're young and they're in their

31:52
30s or their 40s and don't know what the

31:54
future has in store.

31:55
Yeah. There's a local guy who's a

31:58
realtor and about 20 years ago I kind of

32:01
gave this talk to a group of people and

32:03
so he and his wife decided what would it

32:06
take to make a really good living and at

32:08
the time they said if we ever made

32:09
70,000 bucks a year that would be

32:12
amazing. So they set a budget themselves

32:15
and said everything over 70,000 bucks a

32:17
year and they indexed it every year for

32:19
inflation. They were going to give away

32:24
50% of anything over 70%. I mean 70,000.

32:26
Well about four years ago I talked to

32:29
him and he was making like 450,000 bucks

32:32
and their budget was now like

32:34
180,000 with inflation and everything

32:36
else. But they were giving away hundreds

32:39
of thousands of dollars because when

32:41
they didn't have money, they set a

32:43
finish line. And so everyone thinks it's

32:45
a good idea. But if you don't set it

32:48
now, when you're in your earning thing,

32:50
it's very difficult because there's no

32:52
alarm bell that goes off. You've got

32:53
enough

Setting Financial Limits

32:57
because we wa watch programs like Fixer

32:59
Upper and we see these really nice

33:00
houses and they're very cool. My wife

33:02
says, "How come we can't remodel our

33:06
kitchen for a $145 like they can or you

33:09
know

33:11
and and you learn to get nicer and nicer

33:13
things. And so as your income grows,

33:15
your your appetite for more and more

33:18
grows. And I and so I urge younger

33:21
people to set a finish line for how much

33:24
they need to live on and index that for

33:26
inflation

33:29
and pledge what they're going to do um

33:31
um beyond that. I also have a lawyer

33:34
friend who um when he got out of law

33:36
school decided to give away start giving

33:40
away 5% a year and increase that by 1% a

33:43
year. It's been 46 years. He's given

33:45
away over half of his income because it

33:47
only went up 1% a year. The guy's

33:49
incredibly generous. He just cuts a

33:52
check right out of his his firm's

33:56
account um uh um every single month. and

33:59
he said, "I end up with tons of money in

34:00
this giving account that I would never

34:03
have had the discipline to do." So,

34:04
there are ways you can actually begin

34:07
doing this before we have a company that

34:09
you're going to sell. And, uh, in fact,

34:11
sometimes when I'm giving these talks,

34:13
um, I'll occasionally get someone, a

34:15
group of young entrepreneurs and

34:17
business guys, and I'll say, "I know

34:18
exactly what you're thinking. I'm going

34:19
to do what Clare did. I'm going to work

34:21
my butt off, make a ton of money, and

34:24
then I'll I'll donate my time and a lot

34:26
of the money to God. And I said, you

34:28
know, that's like making a decision.

34:30
You're going to binge drink in college

34:32
for four years and then stop when you

34:36
get done. Materialism is an addiction.

34:38
And I said, I know I'm a recovering

34:40
materialist myself.

Materialism as Addiction

34:43
So don't consider that. That is not a

34:46
plan. That's a plan for failure. Because

34:48
there are very few people who once

34:51
they'd make a ton of money have the

34:55
discipline to say no.

34:56
Wow.

34:57
Anyway,

Rapidfire Questions

34:59
this is so good. Claire, I want to

35:01
finish the last minute with 10 rapidfire

35:04
questions where you just say the first

35:05
thing that comes to mind and there's no

35:07
wrong answer.

35:10
Okay. Is this like a roar shark test for

35:10
Yeah, maybe they're

35:13
psychologist or something.

35:15
Okay. Who's the first person you think

35:18
of when I say servant leadership?

35:21
Wow. I would have to say um a guy like

35:24
David Green at Hobby Lobby. Here's a guy

35:27
that has all the resources in the world.

35:30
In fact, one time I saw him in O'Hara

35:32
airport. He was he had missed a flight

35:34
and and he had a whole bunch of luggage

35:36
and his wife was sitting on his luggage

35:38
in O'Hara airport and I came up to him

35:40
and I said, "It's right now with a

35:43
netjet um uh brochure. would come in

35:44
really handy, would it?" He said, "Oh,

35:46
yeah, for sure." But his wife his

35:48
they've decided that they were going to

35:50
live simply and they didn't at the time

35:52
they didn't own a corporate jet because

35:54
not because they couldn't afford it, but

35:56
they just said, "No, we're not going to

35:59
spend money that way." I I consider him

36:01
a servant leader.

Personal Reflections

36:03
That's good. Five words the most

36:04
describe you.

36:08
A wouldbe follower of Jesus. When I say

36:10
would be, I'm some days I'm better at it

36:12
than others and other days I want to

36:16
hide all sharp objects. So I, you know,

36:20
favorite book or author?

36:22
Well, obviously got to say the Bible if

36:24
you're a Christian, but other than that,

36:27
um um I really appreciated

36:30
um How Then Shall We Live by Francis

36:31
Schaefer

36:35
and Kingdoms in Conflict by uh Coulson.

36:39
um yeah are wonderful books that help us

36:42
shape a biblical worldview because a bib

36:45
a world view is the sum total of

36:48
everything you believe to be true

36:50
whether it is or not. I mean there's

36:53
things that I believe that aren't

36:55
actually true and so the more we

36:59
actually study scripture we get closer

37:00
to a biblical worldview than Claire's

Favorite Things

37:03
worldview.

37:06
Yeah. All right. Favorite food?

37:09
Oh, pizza. All right. Favorite thing to

37:11
do in your free time?

37:15
I do long distance sea doing. So, we

37:20
have a cottage in Lake Michigan and I'll

37:22
go

37:24
300 400 miles over couple of days on

37:27
Lake Michigan with some friends. We call

37:29
ourselves the wet wild hogs. Now, I'm

37:32
getting a little I'm getting a little

37:34
long in the tooth for that now. So, I

37:36
don't go quite those same distances

37:38
anymore, but I love to go 100 miles, 150

37:40
miles in a morning or afternoon and have

37:43
lunch. And so, that's that's my way of

37:45
recreation. I like to ski.

Surprising Facts

37:48
Wow. I was going to ask surprising fact

37:50
about you, but those are pretty good

37:52
facts. Where's your favorite place

37:54
you've been?

37:55
Oh, I'd say Switzerland. It's just

37:58
amazing.

38:00
Anywhere in the world that you wanted to

38:02
go or want to go that you have not been

38:03
to yet?

38:06
Yeah. Um, New Zealand.

38:09
It's just too far.

Best Advice Received

38:10
All right. Best advice you've ever

38:13
received.

38:15
Um, I once as a young man, I just as a

38:18
new Christian, I went to a Christian

38:20
conference and I forget the guy, but he

38:22
was a he's a patriarch

38:25
um in the in the Christian world. I

38:27
mean, this guy's written a bunch of

38:30
books and everything. I just his name

38:32
eludes me. And I said, "Do you have any

38:34
advice for a young man?" And he said,

38:36
"The three G's." I said, "What is that?"

38:39
He said, "Keep your hands off the gold,

38:41
the glory, and the girls."

38:44
That's good advice.

38:46
And I've taught my grandsons that same

38:48
thing.

Importance of Servant Leadership

38:50
That's good. I should teach my boys

38:52
that. I like that. Um, all right. And

38:54
finally, we talk a lot about servant

38:56
leadership on this podcast. Why do you

38:59
think, and I know you shared this a

39:02
little bit, but why do you think it's

39:04
important for people to learn more about

39:07
being better servant leaders?

39:09
Because that Jesus taught that. And I

39:11
mean the whole New Testament is about is

39:14
about serving others. So it's not

39:17
optional for us to study. It's it's it's

39:19
what Jesus actually expects of of

39:22
Christians. And so I think we need to

39:24
get serious about what does that look

39:27
for me and what does it look like for

39:30
other people and how can I learn from

39:33
it? Because the the alternative is we

39:35
just serve on a bunch of boards. we

39:37
volunteer and do, you know, kinds of

39:39
things. And and I think what it means to

39:41
be a servant leader is that

39:44
Jesus owns you 247.

39:47
And going to church on Sunday, doing a

39:50
Bible study on Tuesday morning with a

39:52
bunch of men, volunteering on Wednesday

39:54
night is is an obedience we can we can

39:56
schedule into our busy lives. But Jesus

39:59
expects us to be available all the time.

40:01
And those are nice activities to do. But

40:04
we need to actually wake up every

40:06
morning and and and ask Jesus, make me

40:09
aware of what your assignment is for me

40:12
today. Even if I don't know that, give

40:14
me radar for people who need help. Give

40:17
me radar for people who don't know you

40:19
that I need to explain who you are to

40:21
them. And so it's just being vigilant

40:24
all the time and not falling into just

40:26
being a religious Christian.

Podcast Closing

40:29
Wow.

40:30
And there's some days I'm better at that

40:33
than others. So that's my that's my

40:35
disclaimer. My family can tell you that.

40:37
Well, thank you so much for being on our

40:39
podcast. Thank you for sharing your

40:41
wisdom. I'm excited to read the book

40:44
whenever it comes out. and uh and thank

40:46
you just for the blessing you've been to

40:48
so many men across the country because I

40:50
know you do uh a lot for all of us.

40:52
Well, thank you, Chris. I've had a great

40:54
time. It's great to get to know you and

40:57
anytime you want me back, I'm happy to

40:58
do it.

41:00
All right, we'll talk soon.

41:01
I'd be honored. Thank you.

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41:02
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41:04
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