00:00:00
Right now, you're more likely to get

00:00:01
struck by lightning than prosecuted for

00:00:04
owning a slave. And so, traffickers

00:00:06
operate with an insane amount of

00:00:08
impunity. They can get away with this.

00:00:11
It's a high reward, lowrisk crime. And

00:00:15
we've got to invert that. We've got to

00:00:16
make this a high risk, lowreward crime

00:00:20
if we're going to make a difference.

00:00:27
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

00:00:29
we welcome John Richmond, chief impact

00:00:31
officer at Atlas Free. John formerly

00:00:34
served as the highest ranking role in

00:00:35
the US government, dedicated to fighting

00:00:37
human trafficking as the US ambassador

00:00:39
to combat trafficking. Before being

00:00:41
appointed as an ambassador, Jon helped

00:00:43
found the human trafficking prosecution

00:00:45
unit at the Department of Justice,

00:00:47
served as a federal prosecutor, and

00:00:49
worked internationally with

00:00:50
organizations like International Justice

00:00:52
Mission. join us and learn from the

00:00:54
family principles that he and his wife

00:00:56
developed that will help you become a

00:00:58
better servant leader.

00:00:59
John, thank you for joining us on the

00:01:01
servant leadership podcast.

00:01:03
It's great to be with you.

00:01:05
This is so fun. You ended up in the

00:01:09
highest ranking position in the US

00:01:11
government to combat human trafficking.

00:01:13
That is a crazy position. How does

00:01:15
somebody even end up there? What was the

00:01:18
career trajectory to get there?

00:01:21
You know, it it's interesting. I was

00:01:23
recently talking to some law students.

00:01:24
They asked me like h how did your career

00:01:26
progress and did you always want to do

00:01:28
these jobs? And I reminded them that

00:01:30
when I graduated from law school, it was

00:01:32
before uh Congress passed the

00:01:34
Trafficking Victims Protection Act. It

00:01:36
was before the human trafficking

00:01:38
prosecution unit was formed at the

00:01:40
Department of Justice. It was long

00:01:41
before there was ever an ambassador at

00:01:43
large for monitoring combating human

00:01:45
trafficking. So, I had no idea uh what I

00:01:47
was doing. Um, I knew I wanted to be

00:01:50
involved in things that mattered and um,

00:01:53
I wanted to be involved in things that

00:01:54
were kind of leaning into how we improve

00:01:58
systems and how we improve the delivery

00:02:00
system of justice and and services to

00:02:04
people who need the most. And so I ended

00:02:06
up I was practic law for about four

00:02:08
years at a firm um, and then had the

00:02:11
opportunity to go with an NGO called

00:02:13
International Justice Mission just as it

00:02:15
was starting up. They were kind enough

00:02:17
to let my wife and our little daughter

00:02:19
at the time move to India where I lived

00:02:22
for a little over three years and really

00:02:25
learned for the first time what human

00:02:26
trafficking looks like and how

00:02:29
traffickers think and what survivors

00:02:31
really need. Um, we built that office

00:02:34
and built some sustainable leadership

00:02:36
and I handed that off to some great

00:02:38
friends who continued to grow it and

00:02:39
came back to the United States and was a

00:02:41
federal prosecutor at the Department of

00:02:43
Justice, helped found the human

00:02:44
trafficking prosecution unit at Justice

00:02:47
and then got to try cases all over the

00:02:49
United States, uh, sex trafficking and

00:02:51
labor trafficking cases. um that were

00:02:54
just an incredible opportunity to really

00:02:56
understand um how this works and how how

00:02:59
our criminal justice system and our

00:03:01
social service systems um respond. And

00:03:04
while I was at justice, I got the

00:03:05
international portfolio. So I spent a

00:03:07
lot of time at the United Nations um in

00:03:09
the United Nations office on drugs and

00:03:10
crime thinking about policy issues which

00:03:13
ultimately I think led to a chance to

00:03:16
serve um as the US ambassador on

00:03:19
trafficking in persons. uh thinking

00:03:22
about it from a foreign policy uh lens

00:03:25
and thinking about how do we get

00:03:26
countries around the world to do better

00:03:29
on this? How do we advance American

00:03:32
values around human dignity on the

00:03:35
foreign policy landscape with all the

00:03:37
other geopolitical interests that are

00:03:39
that are happening? So, it's been a

00:03:41
meaningful career, but definitely not

00:03:43
one that I plotted out or planned from

00:03:45
the beginning. I think it was just a

00:03:47
series of opportunities to take some

00:03:49
risks, to make some left turns, to leave

00:03:52
great jobs in the hope that we could do

00:03:55
something even more significant on the

00:03:57
other side.

00:03:58
Wow. Did you know the ambassador

00:04:00
appointment was coming when it came or

00:04:02
was it a surprise to you?

00:04:03
I knew it was in the works. Uh, and I

00:04:06
had known the prior ambassadors. Uh,

00:04:08
we're kind of all friends. The

00:04:09
anti-trafficking world is pretty small.

00:04:11
um and is a a political space that is

00:04:14
they're champions on trafficking on both

00:04:16
sides of the political aisle. Um and so

00:04:18
the the prior ambassadors were were were

00:04:21
kind and gracious to me and encouraging.

00:04:23
Um and so but as it came I I wasn't a

00:04:27
typical uh appointee in the sense that I

00:04:30
never made a political donation in my

00:04:32
life to any candidate. Um and so I I had

00:04:36
very little to fill out on those forms

00:04:38
about uh about what you're doing. And so

00:04:41
it was pretty clear. The one thing is

00:04:42
true is I didn't buy my appointment.

00:04:45
That that is for certain. But my mom is

00:04:47
really proud to say that the the Senate

00:04:49
unanimously confirmed me. She likes to

00:04:51
say that the the Senate can't agree on

00:04:53
much except her little boy. Um and I

00:04:56
think that's a mom's prerogative uh to

00:04:58
make that case. But we're glad to have

00:04:59
consensus and be able to lead through

00:05:01
that.

00:05:02
I love that. When we talk about

00:05:04
trafficking, that might be a new term to

00:05:07
some people. What all does human

00:05:09
trafficking entail, especially as you've

00:05:11
been in this industry for so long?

00:05:14
That's a fair question because I think

00:05:16
there's a lot of confusion about what

00:05:17
trafficking is and partly because we

00:05:19
have these really complicated domestic

00:05:21
and international definitions, but then

00:05:23
also we see different media

00:05:24
representations and so we might see a TV

00:05:26
show or a 30inut news magazine or hear a

00:05:29
story and we think that's what

00:05:30
trafficking is. The reality is

00:05:33
trafficking is just compelling someone

00:05:35
to work or compelling them to engage in

00:05:37
a commercial sex act. And all the

00:05:40
emphasis is on compelling. That is the

00:05:42
real question is, are you free to quit

00:05:44
your job and go work elsewhere if you

00:05:46
want to? And if someone's keeping you

00:05:49
from competing in the marketplace for a

00:05:51
different job, they're taking away your

00:05:54
liberty. So, if you work at Burger King

00:05:56
and you get tired of your manager and

00:05:57
you want to go do French fries at

00:05:59
McDonald's, you ought to be free to

00:06:01
compete for the next job at at

00:06:03
McDonald's. If the Burger King guy is

00:06:05
preventing you from moving on, that's

00:06:07
wrong. And that's what happens honestly

00:06:09
to a lot of people around the world is

00:06:11
they get trapped by nefarious um

00:06:14
employment schemes that say they don't

00:06:16
get to quit and go work elsewhere if

00:06:19
they want to or they don't get to make

00:06:21
the most basic decisions like when they

00:06:23
wake up, where they work, and who

00:06:25
touches their bodies. And if someone

00:06:27
else is profiting from the commercial

00:06:29
exploitation of someone's sexuality or

00:06:32
the exploitation of their labor and they

00:06:34
can't alienate their labor in free

00:06:36
markets, then we then we really run a

00:06:38
foul of the principles that prevent us

00:06:40
from slavery.

00:06:43
How big is the issue both in the US and

00:06:46
internationally? Because when I walk

00:06:48
around just living in the suburbs of

00:06:50
Chicago, I I would think that human

00:06:52
trafficking doesn't exist.

00:06:55
Our

00:06:56
best global prevalence estimate came out

00:06:59
in 2022 from the International Labor

00:07:01
Organization and that estimated that at

00:07:04
any given moment in time there are 27.6

00:07:08
million victims of sex trafficking and

00:07:11
forced labor. Um, and just to put that

00:07:14
into uh some level of of relevance and

00:07:18
and reference, um, there were about 12

00:07:22
million people exploited during all 400

00:07:24
years of the transatlantic slave trade.

00:07:27
And so there are twice as many people

00:07:29
now actually being exploited in human

00:07:32
trafficking than the entire

00:07:33
transatlantic slave trade. Um, more

00:07:36
people than ever before in human

00:07:38
history. The global estimates up 10%

00:07:40
from the prior estimate. Um, so it feels

00:07:43
like we're going in the wrong direction

00:07:44
in terms of the of the number of people.

00:07:47
So it's a big issue. It's found

00:07:49
everywhere in the world. I did a case

00:07:51
years ago in the suburbs of Chicago, a

00:07:54
big a big force labor and sex

00:07:55
trafficking case. Um, it happens all

00:07:57
over. It's just where we look for it.

00:07:58
And it's something that's been happening

00:08:00
throughout all of human history. And so

00:08:01
it's something we really have to fight

00:08:02
against.

00:08:03
Well, I mean, I know you and many others

00:08:05
are fighting against it, but you're

00:08:07
talking about it growing. Is this

00:08:08
something that can be solved? Is it

00:08:10
something that is you're just trying to

00:08:12
lessen it? Are you just trying to stop

00:08:13
it from going as fast as it is but

00:08:15
knowing it will always grow?

00:08:17
You know, I think there are two

00:08:18
different ways to look at that. I think

00:08:21
um we're never going to just like change

00:08:23
human nature. There's always going to be

00:08:24
scoundrels out there who want to exploit

00:08:26
other people and cheat other people. We

00:08:28
have to be vigilant against that. But

00:08:30
what we can end is uh human trafficking

00:08:34
that's institutionally protected, that's

00:08:36
democratically approved, that's

00:08:37
religiously condoned. um we can end the

00:08:41
systems of slavery that that that

00:08:43
operate and we've done that in the

00:08:45
United States and the United States once

00:08:47
had wide open slavery. Um it was

00:08:49
government approved and sanctioned. Uh

00:08:52
it's in our constitution in three places

00:08:54
and we moved away from that. Now we

00:08:56
still have some human trafficking but on

00:08:58
a much smaller degree. It has to be

00:08:59
hidden by traffickers. They can't be

00:09:01
open and notorious like they once were.

00:09:04
But there are many places around the

00:09:05
world today where trafficking is wide

00:09:07
open, where it is culturally protected

00:09:10
and institutionally protected and we can

00:09:12
end that and move ourselves to a place

00:09:14
of vigilance, where we just have to be

00:09:15
vigilant against the individual bad

00:09:17
actors that are out there.

00:09:20
We talk a ton on this podcast about

00:09:22
servant leadership. How do you see

00:09:24
servant leadership show up in such a

00:09:26
dark space like human trafficking?

00:09:30
Well, I think in a couple ways. one is

00:09:32
that servant leadership for the the

00:09:35
whole idea is that is that the leader is

00:09:38
actually putting someone else's

00:09:39
interests above their own um in order to

00:09:42
pursue a greater good. You know, I think

00:09:46
the tipping point for really combating

00:09:47
trafficking is that when people who when

00:09:50
people decide that they're going to care

00:09:52
more about individuals they do not know

00:09:54
and who cannot benefit them traffickers

00:09:57
care about their own illicit profits.

00:10:00
That's the tipping point. like we have

00:10:02
to actually care about people on the

00:10:03
other side of the world or the other

00:10:05
county who are struggling, people who

00:10:08
are on the margins, people who maybe

00:10:09
have been discarded by society or deemed

00:10:12
spoiled um and say they matter, they

00:10:16
actually have inherent value and treat

00:10:18
them as if they really are our brother

00:10:20
or sister or daughter or son and go

00:10:23
after and try to help them become safe

00:10:25
so that they can flourish, so they can

00:10:27
have a shot at prosperity.

00:10:30
Right now, I think traffickers rely on

00:10:32
the idea that most people don't care

00:10:35
enough. Uh we're busy. We've got agendas

00:10:38
and lives and Netflix series to watch.

00:10:40
We've got kids sports games to go to. Um

00:10:43
there's a lot competing for our time.

00:10:46
And so, how do we think about these big

00:10:47
global issues in the midst of our busy

00:10:49
days? And I think there are ways there

00:10:51
are ways to to accelerate this work for

00:10:53
people who are full-time. There are ways

00:10:55
to support them and encourage them. And

00:10:56
there ways to get involved in our local

00:10:58
communities. Uh, but I think the real

00:11:00
tipping point is going to come when we

00:11:01
decide that we care more about people we

00:11:03
don't know than traffickers care about

00:11:05
themselves.

00:11:06
Wow. As you were in government at such a

00:11:10
prominent in such a prominent role, what

00:11:13
did you learn that was different during

00:11:15
your time there than when you went in

00:11:17
thinking this is what we'll be able to

00:11:19
do?

00:11:21
Oh my goodness. You know, government

00:11:23
moves slowly. Um, government is a

00:11:27
lagging indicator. If you think about it

00:11:28
in economic terms, um rarely do great

00:11:32
innovations come from government. Um

00:11:36
government solidifies progress and helps

00:11:38
us not not sort of backslide, but it

00:11:42
rarely is on the cutting edge. And I

00:11:43
think one of the things that frustrates

00:11:45
a lot of folks that go into government

00:11:46
is they come in with big ideas. They

00:11:48
want to change things. They want to they

00:11:49
want to move quickly. Government's not

00:11:52
made to move quickly. You know, our

00:11:53
founding fathers made government, you

00:11:55
know, biccameal legislature, checks and

00:11:57
balances. It's all intended to go slow

00:12:02
and that can be frustrating. People can

00:12:03
chafe against that. But it's probably a

00:12:06
good hedge around around changes. I

00:12:08
think what's inspiring though is that

00:12:11
the real innovation and change comes

00:12:12
from outside government and then

00:12:14
government can capture that and solidify

00:12:16
it. So here's an example. you know,

00:12:18
there was never uh regular order, what

00:12:20
they call in Washington, like bills

00:12:22
going through committee for the Civil

00:12:23
Rights Act of 1964.

00:12:26
Um, it wasn't as if a bunch of senators

00:12:28
were arguing with each other for years

00:12:29
and years about whether we should have a

00:12:31
Civil Rights Act, whether should we end

00:12:32
Jim Crow, do we do we need white and

00:12:35
colored water fountains? Is this the is

00:12:36
this who we want to be? Never happened.

00:12:39
What it was was really ambitious leaders

00:12:43
like Dr. King and James Farmer and

00:12:47
others who said, you know, we're going

00:12:49
to push, we're going to innovate, we're

00:12:51
going to do lunch counters in Greensboro

00:12:53
and freedom rides and boycots and we're

00:12:56
going to we're going to challenge an

00:12:57
evil system that is hurting people. Um,

00:13:01
and they they they created a movement.

00:13:03
It was actually a fairly small group of

00:13:05
people that actually moved the whole

00:13:06
culture to the point where Congress

00:13:08
relented and passed the Civil Rights

00:13:11
Act. In a sense, they grabbed hold of

00:13:12
the momentum of the movement and they

00:13:14
solidified it in law so it couldn't

00:13:16
backslide. And I think that's what we

00:13:18
want to do is we want to see regular

00:13:21
people, you know, moms, dads, teachers,

00:13:25
coaches, firemen, like say this is what

00:13:27
we want our culture and society to be

00:13:29
and to press forward and then look to

00:13:31
government to pass a law that sort of

00:13:32
solidifies the progress that's been

00:13:34
made. But rarely does does innovation

00:13:38
and progress originate in Congress.

00:13:41
So sitting here listening and listening

00:13:44
to all like all the people listening,

00:13:46
what do you recommend people even do?

00:13:48
Like what is that step if because people

00:13:51
hear it and they're like, "Oh, that

00:13:52
sounds wrong, you know, but it's I

00:13:54
wouldn't even know what to do as a next

00:13:55
step."

00:13:56
You know, I think there are a couple

00:13:57
things that people could do. First is be

00:14:00
open to learning a little bit more. So,

00:14:03
whatever you know about trafficking,

00:14:04
there's probably some there's probably

00:14:06
some nuance. There's probably a couple

00:14:08
different turns to that screw that need

00:14:09
to be explored where it's not just what

00:14:11
you saw in one movie. It's not just what

00:14:13
you heard in one article and become a

00:14:16
little more educated about what's

00:14:17
happening. The other thing you can do is

00:14:19
learn about the signs of trafficking in

00:14:21
your own community. Uh where, you know,

00:14:24
we worry that individuals that are

00:14:25
cleaning rooms in hotels or in washing

00:14:28
dishes in restaurants might be forced to

00:14:30
work. um deeply worried about kids

00:14:33
moving through the foster care system,

00:14:35
being targeted by traffickers at the age

00:14:37
of 12 and 13 after they've been through

00:14:40
10 homes and being placed out on the

00:14:42
street or put up on an internet website

00:14:44
and sold for sex. Uh people without

00:14:46
family relationships um that might

00:14:50
protect them or even worse family

00:14:52
relationships that are actually the

00:14:54
relationships that are exploiting them

00:14:56
where home is not safe. Um, we want to

00:14:59
be aware of these signs and signals in

00:15:01
our communities because the demand to

00:15:03
purchase commercial sex remains

00:15:05
incredibly high. The number of people

00:15:07
who want to sell sex remains incredibly

00:15:09
low. And so traffickers are compelling

00:15:12
women, primarily women, uh, to to engage

00:15:15
in this behavior that they really don't

00:15:17
want to. And so we need to know that

00:15:19
that's happening in every city in

00:15:21
America. And how do how do we be aware

00:15:23
of those signs? And then once we're

00:15:25
aware, how do we engage? You know, ev

00:15:27
every community has an elected district

00:15:29
attorney. You know, folks can meet with

00:15:32
them, have a conversation. What are you

00:15:34
doing on trafficking? Uh how how do you

00:15:36
approach the people purchasing sex as

00:15:38
well as those who were forced to sell

00:15:39
it? How do we make sure we're not

00:15:41
prosecuting victims of trafficking for

00:15:44
the unlawful acts their traffickers

00:15:46
compel them to engage in? Uh right now

00:15:48
you're more likely to get arrested as a

00:15:50
as a trafficking victim than you are as

00:15:53
a trafficker all around the world,

00:15:55
including in the US. Um and so we want

00:15:57
we want our law enforcement to be

00:15:59
trained. And so get to know the police,

00:16:02
get to know the detectives, um have some

00:16:04
meetings, find out what their needs are.

00:16:06
Like do they have a task force? Do they

00:16:07
have an agent who's focused on this? Do

00:16:09
they have an officer in charge on this

00:16:11
issue? How can we support our them in

00:16:13
our community? um bring a flat of donuts

00:16:15
or whatever and sit down and just have a

00:16:17
conversation uh with what is possible,

00:16:20
what do they need, how can we support

00:16:22
them, what are they seeing, and then

00:16:24
there are probably some nonprofits in

00:16:26
your community that are working on these

00:16:29
issues. Um I'm a big fan of supporting

00:16:31
things that are local that you can see

00:16:33
and touch and so maybe you decide you

00:16:35
want to encourage them or support them.

00:16:38
Uh but there also international groups

00:16:39
that are working, policy groups. Um I'm

00:16:42
fortunate enough to get to work with an

00:16:44
organization that has a network of

00:16:46
anti-trafficking groups, over 150 of

00:16:48
them all over the world. Um and they

00:16:50
resource and support that group. It's

00:16:52
it's called Atlas Free. Um and I'm

00:16:54
really grateful for the work that they

00:16:56
do. But there are other policy based

00:16:58
organizations that are looking for

00:16:59
better laws. Um international

00:17:01
organizations that are focused globally.

00:17:03
So, whatever your interest is, you if

00:17:05
you've got an interest in a particular

00:17:07
country, um you could probably learn a

00:17:09
great deal about what trafficking looks

00:17:11
like there. And it's a great way to

00:17:14
animate and discuss with our kids what's

00:17:17
going on in the world. you know, if we

00:17:19
start like if if your student um has a a

00:17:23
project on the Congo, what a great

00:17:26
opportunity to talk about cobalt mining

00:17:28
in the DRC and what it's like for little

00:17:31
kids there who are forced to work in

00:17:33
cobalt extraction. Um and like how could

00:17:36
we pray for them? How could we protect

00:17:37
them? How could we support groups that

00:17:39
are working there? And all of a sudden

00:17:41
it becomes less about memorizing that

00:17:43
the capital is Kin Sasha and more about

00:17:45
like how are the kids in Kin Sasha

00:17:47
doing. Um and I think that changes the

00:17:50
way we learn because it becomes a story

00:17:52
and not just a fact.

00:17:54
Wow, that's so good with with I didn't

00:17:57
even realize that there are

00:17:59
organizations all around the country and

00:18:01
around the world trying to combat this.

00:18:03
How how are they or how are you

00:18:06
measuring success? like is is this

00:18:09
working, you know, especially with it

00:18:11
slowly growing?

00:18:13
Yeah, honestly, this is an incredible

00:18:15
question because um we're seeing profits

00:18:18
from from trafficking are skyrocketing.

00:18:21
We're seeing higher numbers of victim

00:18:23
identific victimization of individuals.

00:18:25
So, the global estimates increasing and

00:18:28
we're seeing a decreasing rate of

00:18:29
convictions uh for trafficking around

00:18:31
the world. And so, the numbers feel like

00:18:33
they're going in the wrong direction.

00:18:36
And so I think it's worth asking what do

00:18:38
we need to do and I think what we have

00:18:39
to look to is where have we seen success

00:18:42
and we've seen success where we have had

00:18:44
focus. Um you know everybody knows that

00:18:48
if you've got eight projects 70%

00:18:50
completed you've done you've

00:18:52
accomplished nothing in a sense like

00:18:53
you've got you put a lot of work in but

00:18:55
you haven't got anything across the

00:18:56
finish line. And when that happens we

00:18:58
all feel a little anxious. And the key

00:19:00
is to slow down, pick one of them, and

00:19:03
finish it. And then pick the next one

00:19:05
and then finish it. Our challenge

00:19:07
sometimes is that we're focused on too

00:19:09
many things all at once. And we got to

00:19:11
get focused. If we want to make a dent

00:19:13
in trafficking, if we really want to

00:19:15
address this, we've got to make it a

00:19:17
priority. And we've got to resource and

00:19:19
fund and and staff these organizations

00:19:23
and agencies around the world to

00:19:25
actually take this fight to traffickers.

00:19:29
Right now, you're more likely to get

00:19:30
struck by lightning than prosecuted for

00:19:33
owning a slave. And so, traffickers

00:19:35
operate with an insane amount of

00:19:37
impunity. They can get away with this.

00:19:40
It's a high reward, lowrisk crime. And

00:19:44
we've got to invert that. We've got to

00:19:45
make this a high risk, lowreward crime

00:19:49
if we're going to make a difference. And

00:19:50
I think we can do that. But we have to

00:19:52
use the tried andrue tested methods of

00:19:55
fighting crime that we've done in the

00:19:57
past, which is creating specialized

00:19:59
units like focusing in agents and

00:20:01
officers on this task where the way they

00:20:04
get promoted, the next patch on the

00:20:05
uniform is to actually do one of these

00:20:07
cases. We need fasttrack courts. We need

00:20:10
folks who understand trauma. We need to

00:20:12
train our law enforcement and our our

00:20:14
our first responders and why people

00:20:17
don't tell the truth the first time they

00:20:19
meet authorities. Uh, you know, I think

00:20:21
it's really hard for people to

00:20:22
understand that if you're a victim of

00:20:24
trafficking, you're probably not going

00:20:25
to tell the authorities the truth about

00:20:28
what's happened to you when you first

00:20:29
meet them.

00:20:30
You don't trust them. The traffickers

00:20:32
probably told you to lie. Uh, you're

00:20:34
worried you're going to get in trouble

00:20:36
for the things that you've done. Let me

00:20:38
say it this way. Um, years ago, my my

00:20:41
daughter's bike got stolen in our

00:20:43
neighborhood and man, she was she was

00:20:46
upset. We called the little town police.

00:20:48
An officer came by. He was so gracious

00:20:50
and he listened to her explain every

00:20:52
detail about her bike, the tassels, the

00:20:54
bell, the basket, the purple sparkles,

00:20:56
the whole thing. And she told him all

00:20:59
and she wanted whoever stole her bike to

00:21:02
be found and she wanted her bike back.

00:21:04
And there was no worry from my little

00:21:07
girl that if her friends found out her

00:21:09
bike was stolen that they wouldn't want

00:21:11
to be her friend anymore. There was no

00:21:13
worry that if her parents, if we found

00:21:15
out that her bike got stolen, that we

00:21:17
would disown her or that we wouldn't

00:21:19
want to be her parents or she wouldn't

00:21:20
be welcomed in our family. There was no

00:21:22
worry that she would be condemned by her

00:21:27
faith for having her bike stolen. But

00:21:30
there are a lot of sex trafficking

00:21:31
victims that very much worry that if

00:21:34
people found out that they were a sex

00:21:35
trafficking victim, their friends

00:21:37
wouldn't want to spend time with them

00:21:38
anymore. their families would kick them

00:21:40
out or disown them and their faith would

00:21:42
condemn them forever. And so there's a

00:21:45
lot of reason that people might be

00:21:46
hesitant to tell the truth if they've

00:21:48
experienced some sort of trauma,

00:21:50
particularly sexually based trauma. And

00:21:53
we need to give space and room for that

00:21:55
as we train law enforcement, as we train

00:21:57
first responders, as as we train NOS's

00:22:00
and churches and synagogues and temples.

00:22:02
like they need to know that people

00:22:05
who've experienced abuse are hesitant to

00:22:08
tell the truth until they feel safe.

00:22:10
We've got to help stabilize them and

00:22:12
help them feel safe so that we can then

00:22:14
get to the truth so that so that we can

00:22:17
ultimately stop the the abuser.

00:22:21
This makes me wonder, I I know we talked

00:22:23
about this a little bit earlier, but

00:22:26
it's not like an immediate I am not

00:22:29
being trafficked and now I am being

00:22:30
trafficked. There's some process where

00:22:33
somebody goes through to become

00:22:35
trafficked. I I don't think people

00:22:36
desire that off the bat and they might

00:22:39
not realize they're in it until it's too

00:22:41
late. What's a common scenario you see

00:22:44
where it happens and somebody doesn't

00:22:45
even know it's happening until it's too

00:22:47
late where then they end up in that

00:22:48
situation?

00:22:51
One common scenario on the forced labor

00:22:53
side is people respond to an a

00:22:55
recruitment ad for a job in the Gulf or

00:22:57
a job in this other country. Um, and

00:23:01
once they get there, the terms of the

00:23:02
job are not what they say they're going

00:23:04
to be and their passports are taken and

00:23:07
their their freedom of movement is

00:23:08
limited. Uh, and they're forced to do

00:23:10
something else or they're not paid for

00:23:13
what they do and they get trapped.

00:23:14
They're far away from home. They don't

00:23:16
have means to get back. They lack

00:23:17
resources. Um, and so like fraudulent

00:23:21
recruitment schemes are a really common

00:23:23
way that good people get tricked.

00:23:27
But there's also in the sex trafficking

00:23:29
context, um there are numerous ways that

00:23:31
people get trapped. But I I can tell you

00:23:34
that I was speaking with one trafficker

00:23:35
about how he recruited people, who he

00:23:38
targeted, and he was explaining to me

00:23:41
that everybody has a dream. He said, "I

00:23:44
just sell people their dream. So if I

00:23:46
meet a young girl and she's from a bad

00:23:48
family, a dysfunctional family, a broken

00:23:50
family, um and her dream is to just have

00:23:54
a family, I become a father figure. I

00:23:57
sell her that we're a family. We're the

00:23:59
family you never had. We're going to

00:24:00
love you no matter what in a way that

00:24:02
you never got from your original family

00:24:04
of origin. If they want a boyfriend, he

00:24:08
became Romeo. He became he became the

00:24:11
romantic lead. Um if they wanted to be

00:24:15
in music videos, be a dancer in music

00:24:18
videos, he became a producer. You know,

00:24:20
whatever it is that they wanted, if they

00:24:22
wanted fame, he became an agent. you

00:24:24
know it if he want they wanted money. He

00:24:26
became a a funer for their for their

00:24:29
like a VC funer for their work. It was

00:24:32
all a lie. It's all a trick. He would

00:24:34
just figure out what do they care most

00:24:35
about? What do they want? Then I sell

00:24:37
them on what they dream about. I sell

00:24:39
them their dream and then I trap them.

00:24:42
This is what scoundrels are doing. They

00:24:44
are way they are laying in weight with

00:24:46
wicked schemes to oppress the poor. And

00:24:50
I I think we've got to be cogniz

00:24:52
cognizant of that. And one just teaching

00:24:54
people that like you know some things

00:24:56
aren't just too good to be true but also

00:24:59
you know you're not going to change

00:25:00
someone is not going to come along and

00:25:02
improve your life and change your life

00:25:03
like you're the the the ladder towards

00:25:06
self-improvement the ladder towards

00:25:08
flourishing and prosperity is going to

00:25:09
be one that every one of us climb and we

00:25:11
don't get to skip a rung. Uh it's going

00:25:14
to be slow and gradual until it's all at

00:25:16
once at the end. And like you there is

00:25:20
no there is no uh elevator to to to the

00:25:23
top of this mountain. It's a mountain we

00:25:25
all have to have to walk up.

00:25:27
And I I think we can help people be

00:25:28
resilient so that they're less likely to

00:25:31
fall prey to the schemes of traffickers.

00:25:33
Yeah. Well, one of the things that was

00:25:36
interesting, I don't know how many

00:25:37
months ago, but a few months ago, I was

00:25:40
in Seattle and that's where we met and I

00:25:42
got to hear you talk about trafficking.

00:25:44
One of the things that conversation

00:25:46
turned in a great direction. It was like

00:25:49
a great talk and then it became an even

00:25:50
better talk because then you started

00:25:52
talking about stuff that you do with

00:25:54
your family. You have these 10

00:25:55
principles and as you're talking about

00:25:57
like how do you prep people? How do you

00:25:59
prep your family? Can you get into how

00:26:02
you even came up with your family

00:26:04
principles? And I don't know if you're

00:26:05
willing to share those or not on here,

00:26:07
but uh they were super impactful for me

00:26:09
and Jen. H well I'm I'm glad to hear

00:26:12
that they've been impactful for us as

00:26:13
well. I mean one of the things that we

00:26:15
really believe is that um is the power

00:26:17
of with uh this incredible preposition

00:26:21
this word with. It connects us to other

00:26:24
people. And we really believe that our

00:26:26
family we are meant to be with each

00:26:29
other. We're to be with each other in

00:26:30
our messes and our successes. I'm to be

00:26:33
with my kids on the things that they are

00:26:34
passionate about. there to be with us in

00:26:36
our work and um in our passions as well.

00:26:41
And this is what caused me to go to way

00:26:43
too many competitive cheerleading

00:26:45
competitions and sit on the floor of

00:26:46
gyms for years when my daughter was

00:26:49
competing. I had no interest in this

00:26:51
topic at all. But I cared about her,

00:26:54
right? And if she's passionate about it,

00:26:56
I'm going to get passionate about it.

00:26:57
We're going to be with her in it.

00:27:00
And so we've wanted our kids to be with

00:27:01
us in this work, obviously in an age

00:27:03
appropriate way over the years. and

00:27:05
think about like right and wrong, think

00:27:07
about how do we pursue justice for

00:27:09
people. Um, and so we developed when we

00:27:13
first started um thinking about being a

00:27:16
parent, I was a little overwhelmed,

00:27:18
probably like most uh to soon to be

00:27:21
dads. I was thinking, I've got a plan

00:27:23
for almost everything in my life. We've

00:27:24
got contingency plans and operational

00:27:26
plans. I've got no clue how to be a dad.

00:27:28
I've never done it before.

00:27:30
um feels really I feel inexperienced and

00:27:33
unprepared for this. uh back then like

00:27:36
the only book around was like what to

00:27:38
expect when you're expecting and offered

00:27:40
me very little practical advice uh

00:27:43
beyond how to change a diaper like how

00:27:45
do you raise a kid and I think what we

00:27:47
what we learned really quickly was the

00:27:49
main goal of parenting and this is the

00:27:51
thing we have to figure out what's the

00:27:52
what's the main thing for your company

00:27:54
what's the main thing for your brand

00:27:55
what's the main thing for your for your

00:27:58
organization and we realized the main

00:28:00
thing was not to have well- behaved

00:28:02
children the main thing was to launch

00:28:06
successful adults. Like that's what we

00:28:09
want to do. And so parenting is a lot

00:28:11
more about molding character than

00:28:14
managing situations. And of course we

00:28:16
have to manage the situations, but the

00:28:18
main thing is helping helping grow these

00:28:21
these young people into the adults that

00:28:24
they're going to they're going to

00:28:25
become. And so to do that, we came up

00:28:27
with a couple principles that would

00:28:30
guide us. And we wanted some principles

00:28:31
that would apply when you're when you're

00:28:34
four, when you're 14, when you're 44,

00:28:36
and when you're 84, like to be lifelong.

00:28:39
Um, we wanted them to be flexible. Um, I

00:28:42
never liked the word rules, but my my

00:28:44
rest of my family did. They thought it

00:28:45
was more practical. I I wanted more

00:28:47
nuance to them because the last thing

00:28:48
the world needs are more rules and

00:28:50
policies. Uh, but we want to get things

00:28:53
done. And so we came up with a few basic

00:28:55
ones and we wanted them to cover a range

00:28:57
of ideas but one was um about the

00:29:01
purpose of life. Rule number one was

00:29:02
like understanding your purpose,

00:29:04
understanding why you were created. Uh

00:29:07
what are you about? And uh you know for

00:29:11
people of faith I think it's really

00:29:13
clear um we were created for God's

00:29:15
glory, for his pleasure. That's our

00:29:17
purpose in life. And so we taught our

00:29:19
kids from early on like you don't have

00:29:20
to wander. You know, I watch people

00:29:22
wander all around India to different

00:29:24
asherons trying to figure out the

00:29:25
purpose of life. And they're good people

00:29:27
and it's an interesting journey, but we

00:29:29
don't have to solve a grand cryptic

00:29:32
puzzle. This is not Indiana Jones level

00:29:34
cryptography and jumping over stuff like

00:29:37
scripture lays it out pretty clearly for

00:29:38
people of faith. I think it's to please

00:29:40
God. So, rule number one for us was

00:29:42
please God. For people who aren't coming

00:29:44
from a faith perspective, I think it's

00:29:46
still important to figure out what's the

00:29:47
overarching purpose of what you're going

00:29:50
to do on the planet. The second rule um

00:29:54
after please God was know your name and

00:29:57
it's all about life's identity. Uh this

00:30:00
sense that everybody um has a name. We

00:30:04
in a sense have a name tag and the world

00:30:06
tries to write all over our name tag.

00:30:09
You know, if you if you don't make

00:30:10
varsity, it wants to scribble loser on

00:30:12
your name tag as if that's your name. If

00:30:14
you get cut from this, if you don't get

00:30:17
the lead role in the play, if you don't

00:30:19
make partner at the right time, whatever

00:30:22
the ladder you're climbing, if you're

00:30:24
not achieving, uh, the world wants to

00:30:26
either write a negative or if you are

00:30:28
achieving, write a positive name on your

00:30:30
name tag. We wanted to let them know

00:30:32
that, hey, you're on team Richmond.

00:30:34
We're a family. Like, we've picked

00:30:35
sides. I'm I am not ambivalent. I I want

00:30:39
my kids to win. I'm on their team and

00:30:42
they're on my team. And our identity as

00:30:45
people of faith is rooted in who Jesus

00:30:48
is.

00:30:49
And he decided our identity. So I just

00:30:51
had um Chris, I'm happy to tell you on

00:30:53
Monday, our oldest child promoted my

00:30:56
wife and I to grandparent status. I now

00:31:00
have a grandson. He's four days old. Um,

00:31:03
I am happy to report that his favorite

00:31:06
activities right now are sleeping,

00:31:09
eating, and long walks around the house

00:31:12
in his father's arms. Um, he has yet to

00:31:15
accomplish anything. He has not build an

00:31:18
hour, landed a client. He has not drawn

00:31:21
a picture,

00:31:23
passed a test. He's done absolutely

00:31:25
nothing. That dude is so valuable. Like,

00:31:28
my wife is on cloud nine. This afternoon

00:31:31
I'm driving over to hold him again. Like

00:31:33
I'm so stoked about this little dude.

00:31:35
He's never accomplished a thing and his

00:31:37
value is already infinite. And I think

00:31:40
we get confused when we think that our

00:31:41
identity, our name gets tied up in our

00:31:43
accomplishments or our failures.

00:31:46
Everybody is valuable. You know, I just

00:31:48
got back from visiting San Quentin

00:31:51
prison in California with some friends

00:31:53
and we were meeting with inmates there,

00:31:55
many of whom are serving life who've got

00:31:58
all over their name tag the word felon,

00:32:01
uh, offender, um, incarcerated, and just

00:32:04
sitting with them, not to take away the

00:32:06
responsibility for whatever they did,

00:32:08
but be like, you know what, you still

00:32:09
matter. You still have value. There's

00:32:11
still hope, uh, in your future. It's a

00:32:14
really powerful moment. And so I think

00:32:16
throughout life, if we know our name, we

00:32:18
don't get a big head when things go well

00:32:21
and we don't think we're trash when

00:32:23
things go poorly. That old Billy Joel

00:32:25
song, you know, the good days weren't

00:32:26
always good and tomorrow tomorrow ain't

00:32:28
bad as it seems kind of thing. Um I I

00:32:31
think we we we stay more level when we

00:32:33
have our identity secure. And then it

00:32:36
becomes a lot more practical after those

00:32:37
first two. Those first two rules, please

00:32:39
God, purpose, know your name, identity,

00:32:42
I think are the foundation. Um, rule

00:32:44
number three, people are more important

00:32:47
than stuff.

00:32:49
This idea, if you ever have to choose

00:32:50
between stuff and people, you're

00:32:52
probably making the right choice if you

00:32:53
choose people.

00:32:55
So, when the kids were little, it was

00:32:57
about sharing. You know, we never had to

00:32:59
teach my kids the word no. They came no

00:33:02
in mind came like pre-programmed in our

00:33:04
children. Uh, we had to teach them how

00:33:06
to share. We had to teach them how to

00:33:08
take something that's yours and that you

00:33:10
want to play with and you're going to

00:33:12
let someone else use it instead of you

00:33:14
for a while even though you don't want

00:33:15
to. Um, that's a powerful concept and it

00:33:19
applies throughout life. This people are

00:33:22
more important than stuff. When if

00:33:24
you're in a nonprofit and there's a

00:33:25
donor that's being really inappropriate

00:33:28
with one of the major gifts officers,

00:33:30
uh, you need to let her know like they

00:33:33
don't get to treat you that way. even if

00:33:34
they're the donor, like you're you're

00:33:36
more important than the donation that

00:33:37
they might give or they're the sales rep

00:33:40
who's out there like they don't deserve

00:33:42
to be harassed or mistreated. Um, we

00:33:45
want to make sure that everywhere people

00:33:46
are more important than stuff. Rule

00:33:49
number four is speak truth and love.

00:33:52
This idea there's two tests for

00:33:53
everything we say. It needs to be true

00:33:55
and it needs to be loving. Um, just

00:33:58
because it's true. And a lot of people

00:34:00
are brutal with truth. Truth can be

00:34:02
really mean. You know, you can walk to a

00:34:04
Walmart and say that lady's fat, which

00:34:07
could be totally true, but really not a

00:34:09
loving thing to say at all. Um, or you

00:34:13
know, you know, it's just something even

00:34:14
if you didn't like the dinner we had at

00:34:16
a friend's house, what if you just say

00:34:17
like something true and loving like,

00:34:18
"Thanks for taking the time to have us

00:34:20
over and make this as opposed to saying

00:34:22
it's the best dish ever," like which you

00:34:24
didn't actually believe. you can find

00:34:26
something true and loving to say and

00:34:28
keep us out of this idea of of deception

00:34:31
but also keeps us towards what's best.

00:34:34
You know, what we focus on, what we look

00:34:36
for, we we'll find and what we focus on

00:34:39
will magnify. And so, let's find good to

00:34:41
magnify and invest in. And then rule

00:34:45
number five is perhaps the most

00:34:46
challenging uh for most people, which is

00:34:49
feelings are not actions.

00:34:52
And it really has this idea that

00:34:54
feelings matter. Our emotions are real.

00:34:57
They're not to be swept under the rug,

00:34:59
ignored, or denied. They really do

00:35:01
matter. They also don't decide how we

00:35:03
act. We have agency

00:35:06
that we don't have to act consistent

00:35:08
with our feelings if our feelings aren't

00:35:09
leading us towards goodness,

00:35:12
you know. And so, there was a time when

00:35:13
our kids were little, they were playing

00:35:14
Monopoly. My daughter was cheating

00:35:17
against her little brother. He finally

00:35:19
figured it out. He was furious with her.

00:35:21
And so with all the energy of his

00:35:23
three-year-old body, he balled up his

00:35:25
right hand into a fist and threw it

00:35:28
right at her nose. Did no damage, but

00:35:31
she cried. They ran to me. And uh and he

00:35:36
decided he was going to make his case.

00:35:37
You know, I figured out she was fine.

00:35:40
She was upset. She was a little drama,

00:35:41
too. She was playing it up. And uh he's

00:35:45
like I'm like, "Hey, man. What

00:35:46
happened?" He goes, "She was cheating."

00:35:48
And I'm like, totally true. I watched

00:35:50
her do it. I was a little disappointed

00:35:51
it took you that long to figure it out,

00:35:53
but I get why you're mad. He's like, and

00:35:55
I'm mad. That's his second argument. So,

00:35:57
first is she's cheating, which is true.

00:35:59
Second argument was, I'm upset. I'm mad.

00:36:01
Every right to be mad. I'd be mad. I

00:36:03
don't want anybody to cheat against me.

00:36:05
He's like, "So, I punched her in the

00:36:07
nose and I do it again." I'm like, "This

00:36:09
is where your error comes." Right? Just

00:36:12
because you're mad doesn't mean you get

00:36:14
to punch her in the nose, right? your

00:36:16
offense actually trumped hers.

00:36:18
But here's what most people don't

00:36:19
realize is just because you think your

00:36:23
secretary's cute and you like the

00:36:25
attention she gives you doesn't mean you

00:36:26
should go away on the weekend with her

00:36:28
instead of stay home with your wife.

00:36:30
Just because you feel something doesn't

00:36:33
mean you should act on it. Even if the

00:36:35
feelings are really understandable, are

00:36:37
really legitimate. Um it's this idea

00:36:41
that we have agency. Most of the people

00:36:43
that I got to prosecute and put in jail

00:36:45
didn't learn this rule. They didn't

00:36:47
understand that just because they felt

00:36:49
something doesn't mean they have to act

00:36:51
on it. Now, when our feelings do align,

00:36:53
it's great. When our feelings align with

00:36:55
goodness and joy and the virtues that

00:36:57
that we're seeking, we have the

00:36:59
opportunity to act on those. And to not

00:37:02
act on goodness would be an error. But

00:37:04
when our feelings are not aligned, you

00:37:06
know, like I don't feel like going to

00:37:08
the gym, I probably should go anyway.

00:37:10
you know, I don't feel like like turning

00:37:12
in my expense report on time because I'm

00:37:14
busy and I just really hate that kind of

00:37:15
stuff. I should probably shut up, sit

00:37:17
down, and do the thing I don't like to

00:37:18
do. Get it done and move on. We all have

00:37:22
stuff we don't like. We all have a full

00:37:23
array of feelings and we need to move

00:37:25
through it. And then rule number six is

00:37:28
know how to stop. It's all about life's

00:37:30
limits. That everything is more fun if

00:37:35
you can stop. Like riding a bike, tons

00:37:38
of fun if you know how to stop. If every

00:37:40
bike ride ends in a crash, bike riding

00:37:43
is no fun at all. You know, skiing,

00:37:45
totally true. If you don't know how to

00:37:47
stop when you're skiing, you're not

00:37:48
having a fun time on the slope. But it's

00:37:50
true about everything. Know how to stop

00:37:52
working, know how to stop gardening,

00:37:54
know how to stop working out, know how

00:37:56
to stop watching sports, know how to

00:37:58
stop drinking bourbon, know how to stop

00:38:00
eating that those French fries, whatever

00:38:02
it is, it's more fun and your life will

00:38:05
go better if you understand the limits.

00:38:08
We tell our kids this all the time when

00:38:09
they were little, like, "Hey, be just

00:38:10
don't be the last kid to stop

00:38:11
roughousing." When the teacher or the

00:38:14
parent shouts down to the basement and

00:38:15
says, "Hey, it's time to come up." Just

00:38:17
don't be the last kid. It's only the

00:38:19
last kid that gets in trouble.

00:38:20
Like, as long as you're not the last

00:38:22
kid, um you'll be fine. And so, the

00:38:24
extra 5 seconds of enjoyment is not

00:38:26
worth whatever the punishment is going

00:38:28
to be. Just don't be last. And then rule

00:38:31
number seven is about work ethic. It's

00:38:34
finish the job. It's said in all things

00:38:36
we want to we want to be finishers. We

00:38:38
do not want to be people that get stuff

00:38:39
halfway done. And so if your job is to

00:38:42
empty the dishwasher, you're emptying

00:38:43
the whole thing all the way to the

00:38:45
utensils. Like we're finishing the job.

00:38:47
If we're painting a uh the side of the

00:38:49
house, it's you're cleaning the brushes

00:38:50
all the way to the end. Like we're

00:38:52
getting we finish things. Um and it's

00:38:56
only fun. Like we hear this all the time

00:38:57
when my kids played soccer. Finish,

00:38:59
right? You can you can have beautiful

00:39:00
crossing shots all day long. If

00:39:02
someone's not putting it in the net, it

00:39:04
just doesn't count. There's no stat for

00:39:07
the number of perfect crosses in soccer

00:39:09
during a game. And so, we got to be

00:39:11
finishers. Land the client, close the

00:39:14
deal, get the get get the transaction

00:39:16
done.

00:39:18
And and then rule number eight is be

00:39:20
generous.

00:39:22
We want a generous posture. We live in a

00:39:24
world of abundance, not scarcity. Uh we

00:39:27
want to be thinking about how do we

00:39:28
share how do we share credit? um as

00:39:32
leaders with our our direct reports with

00:39:34
people beneath us, how do we give them

00:39:36
credit? How do we elevate them? If we

00:39:38
elevate our team, we're elevating

00:39:40
ourselves. You elevate yourself without

00:39:42
your team and they're going to resent

00:39:44
you. You're going to undermine your own

00:39:46
leadership. Uh you know, it's that old

00:39:49
principle that like don't take the seat

00:39:51
of honor. Like let someone bring you up

00:39:53
to that seat of honor or stay back. Like

00:39:56
you do not want to be the guy that gets

00:39:57
pushed off the deis. And so I think what

00:40:00
we want to do is think about how can we

00:40:02
be generous with our time, with our

00:40:06
efforts, how can we be generous and

00:40:08
available? And the only way you can be

00:40:10
available is to have margin. So if

00:40:13
you've scheduled your life to the to,

00:40:15
you know, to the point where you have no

00:40:16
margin, you've got no room to be

00:40:18
available. If you're so busy that you

00:40:21
can't stop for anything, you're probably

00:40:24
out of balance. You need rest. You need

00:40:26
time. So this my wife and I were just

00:40:28
talking about the only people who can

00:40:29
really be spontaneous and take advantage

00:40:31
of great opportunities are people who

00:40:34
are well organized who are not in

00:40:36
crisis. If you're on the if you're run

00:40:38
around by the seat of your your pants

00:40:40
like a chicken with your head cut off

00:40:41
you have no room to actually take

00:40:44
advantage of spontaneous new

00:40:45
opportunities that come up because

00:40:47
you're you've got no margin. And so if

00:40:49
you're going to be generous, you have to

00:40:50
be generous out of margin.

00:40:52
And then um rule number nine is happen

00:40:55
to your life. It's this idea of agency

00:40:59
and intentionality.

00:41:01
And so we we talk a lot of this idea

00:41:02
that we control nothing but we influence

00:41:05
a lot. People who want to control things

00:41:08
are going to disappoint themselves and

00:41:10
drive everyone around them crazy. There

00:41:12
is no control. We don't control

00:41:14
anything. But we have tons of influence.

00:41:16
like I can't control um if my son gets

00:41:21
to make the soccer team or the

00:41:22
basketball team. Um but he has

00:41:24
influence. He can't decide for the

00:41:26
coach, but he decides how much he

00:41:27
practices. Is he going to drill and

00:41:29
shoot free throws all day um and get it

00:41:32
and nail it down? Is he going to put in

00:41:34
the time and the effort? He can put

00:41:36
himself in a position to influence what

00:41:37
will happen, but he can't control it.

00:41:40
Every bride wants to get married on a

00:41:43
sunny day. A third of brides get married

00:41:46
on damp days. And so you can't control

00:41:49
the weather. And you got to send out the

00:41:50
save the date way before the weather

00:41:52
report comes. And so you decide, are you

00:41:54
going to be the bride that throws a fit

00:41:56
because it rained on their wedding day

00:41:58
or are you going to dance with

00:41:59
umbrellas, right? You're like the people

00:42:01
at the wedding are going to enjoy one

00:42:02
more than the other. And so we just have

00:42:04
to realize we're not in control of

00:42:05
everything.

00:42:06
We're not in control of anything, but we

00:42:09
do have influence. And so like I'm not

00:42:11
in control of my kids. They can make

00:42:12
good decisions and bad decisions as

00:42:14
adults. Um, I can uh have a closed mouth

00:42:17
and an open door and when they ask for

00:42:19
counsel, I can give it to them. And when

00:42:22
we have the opportunity, we can we can

00:42:25
we can coach. But the reality is they

00:42:28
get to make their own choices. And we

00:42:30
get to have influence, but we don't get

00:42:32
to have control. We can't fix our kids,

00:42:34
can't fix our spouse, can barely fix

00:42:36
ourselves. Um, but we can have influence

00:42:39
on how we love people well. And then the

00:42:41
final rule is is outwardly focused. It's

00:42:44
about um how do we engage the world? And

00:42:48
that is uh um make wrong things right.

00:42:53
This idea of justice. And so my

00:42:55
philosophy professors in school bent

00:42:57
themselves into a pretzel saying they

00:42:59
can't figure out what the definition of

00:43:00
justice is. I kind of think I figured it

00:43:03
out. It's making wrong things right. Big

00:43:06
things, little things, local things,

00:43:08
global things. It's seeing something

00:43:10
wrong and making it right. You know,

00:43:11
it's picking up some litter. It's

00:43:13
pulling the weed out of the garden bed.

00:43:15
It's sitting with your elderly neighbor

00:43:17
across the street and listening to that

00:43:19
story again just to give them some

00:43:22
dignity. It's it's helping our kids

00:43:24
think, "Hey, there's a new kid in

00:43:26
seventh grade. Invite them to the lunch

00:43:28
table." Like, what lonier place in the

00:43:30
world is the cafeteria on your first day

00:43:32
of a new seventh grade school? Like,

00:43:34
just invite him to lunch. uh you don't

00:43:36
be their best friend forever, but like

00:43:38
what if we just like see something

00:43:39
wrong, someone who's lonely, someone

00:43:41
who's outside, bring them in. And if we

00:43:44
do that, we think we can live a more

00:43:46
meaningful life. And so what I what I

00:43:48
share with you guys, um when we met a

00:43:50
few months ago was like we we developed

00:43:52
these principles, we gave them names, um

00:43:55
we talked about them with our kids all

00:43:56
the time. um lots of funny stories about

00:43:59
how they applied them in different

00:44:00
times, how they how they held us to

00:44:02
account um on a number of occasions that

00:44:05
we weren't following them, but it gave

00:44:07
our it gave our family a framework and a

00:44:09
common language to use. And they're not

00:44:13
prescriptive.

00:44:14
People can make up their own frameworks,

00:44:16
come up with your own principles, come

00:44:17
up with your own silly sayings with your

00:44:19
kids. I just think there's a value to

00:44:21
having a plan

00:44:24
in order to live well. a framework to

00:44:27
hang all the the parables and the other

00:44:30
teachings and the good books they read

00:44:32
or the songs they hear onto.

00:44:35
And if we have a good framework, I think

00:44:36
we can make a big difference.

00:44:38
Yeah. I mean, that was so good and it

00:44:40
was so impactful for me, like I said,

00:44:42
and I know people listening to this are

00:44:44
going to be encouraged to maybe go do

00:44:46
this with their own families, which will

00:44:47
be awesome. I want to wrap us up with 10

00:44:50
rapidfire questions, okay?

00:44:52
Where I'm going to hit you with anything

00:44:53
and you come back with just the first

00:44:55
thing that comes to mind. No wrong

00:44:56
answer.

00:44:58
Who's the first person you think of when

00:45:01
I say servant leadership?

00:45:04
Jesus.

00:45:06
All right. Five words that most describe

00:45:08
you.

00:45:09
Intentional,

00:45:12
hardworking,

00:45:13
keraggid, uh, cranky, and listener.

00:45:17
I like it. Uh, favorite book or author?

00:45:21
Favorite author has to be CS Lewis.

00:45:24
Favorite book is probably great divorce.

00:45:26
All right. Favorite food.

00:45:30
Good steak.

00:45:32
All right. Favorite thing to do in your

00:45:33
free time.

00:45:36
Go rescue fish from rivers.

00:45:38
Wow. What's a surprising fact about you?

00:45:44
Probably I was born in Italy.

00:45:47
Wow, that is surprising. All right.

00:45:49
Favorite place you've been?

00:45:52
Machu Picchu. On my 25th anniversary, my

00:45:54
wife and I went there.

00:45:56
Wow. Is there anywhere in the world that

00:45:57
you want to go that you have not been to

00:45:59
yet?

00:46:02
I've been a lot of places. Um, I'd love

00:46:05
to go

00:46:07
to Iran if it could ever become

00:46:10
peaceful. Tran is amazing. Love to see

00:46:12
the Elers mountains. I'd love to to

00:46:15
explore that area if peace would ever

00:46:17
come.

00:46:18
Yeah. What's the best advice you've ever

00:46:20
received?

00:46:22
Listen more and talk less.

00:46:26
All right. And last of the 10. This is a

00:46:28
podcast on servant leadership. Why do

00:46:30
you think it's important for people to

00:46:32
become better servant leaders?

00:46:34
I think that if we're better servant

00:46:36
leaders, we're actually going to

00:46:37
accomplish more of our goals, but we're

00:46:39
going to accomplish them in a way that

00:46:41
brings everybody up with us. So, we're

00:46:43
actually going to be more effective on

00:46:45
both the ultimate sort of objective

00:46:48
scale of goal goal achievement, but

00:46:51
we're going to do it in a way that um

00:46:53
helps the people around us flourish.

00:46:56
Wow, that's so good. One question that I

00:47:00
just thought of, it's totally outside of

00:47:01
the rapid fire questions which you

00:47:02
crushed, but do people ask you and do

00:47:05
you have thoughts on uh kids safety? How

00:47:08
to keep your kids safe online these

00:47:10
days?

00:47:11
Keeping kids safe is so critical. And so

00:47:13
what we thought a lot about is how do we

00:47:15
be with them in that with them in their

00:47:17
devices knowing what they're exploring,

00:47:19
what they're seeing, and what they're

00:47:20
doing. Helping them understand what the

00:47:23
risks are and the warning signs are so

00:47:26
that they can keep themselves safe. But

00:47:27
I what I think is most critical is that

00:47:29
we don't do it in a way that creates

00:47:31
fear in them.

00:47:33
We don't want them to be fearful of the

00:47:34
world. We just want them to be smart

00:47:36
about what the world has to offer.

00:47:39
The most interesting frame for us has

00:47:41
been to help them think about how do you

00:47:44
help your friends if they ever encounter

00:47:47
this.

00:47:48
So it becomes less about what are you

00:47:50
doing online and more about like you may

00:47:52
have a friend that gets hit up in a chat

00:47:55
room or a discussion on a game site

00:47:58
about this or that. If they came to you,

00:48:00
how would you respond? like how could

00:48:02
you like what would be some tools that

00:48:03
you could help them with where we're

00:48:05
equipping them with ideas that they

00:48:07
could pass along or mo most recently

00:48:10
we've seen a ton of um extortion hitting

00:48:15
kids where kids have been baited into

00:48:18
providing photos and then told that

00:48:20
they're going to be released and we've

00:48:22
seen a lot of kids commit suicide over

00:48:23
it. is we've talked a lot about like how

00:48:26
do we help kids know that there is

00:48:28
nothing that could be disclosed that

00:48:29
would actually stop anybody from loving

00:48:31
you. Like most people are just going to

00:48:32
look at that and be like, "Oh, that was

00:48:34
a stupid thing to send." But whatever.

00:48:36
Everyone's done something stupid in

00:48:37
their life. Like this is water under the

00:48:40
bridge. Tomorrow needs you. This is not

00:48:42
the end of the world. And lower the

00:48:45
stakes for kids who might have done

00:48:47
something foolish.

00:48:50
But positioning our kids as folks who

00:48:53
could um give better counsel to their

00:48:55
friends is a way to help them learn the

00:48:57
lesson themselves.

00:48:59
Wow, that's so good. There are so many

00:49:02
nuggets of wisdom all throughout this.

00:49:04
I'm thankful that you were willing to be

00:49:06
on our podcast. Thank you for your time

00:49:08
and all of the wisdom you shared.

00:49:10
Good to be with you.

00:49:11
Thank you for listening to this episode

00:49:13
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

00:49:16
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

00:49:17
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

00:49:19
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