James Baker's Reflection

0:00
James Baker, chief of staff to President

0:02
Reagan, speaking at the National Prayer

0:05
Breakfast 30, 40 years ago, talks about

0:10
being driven in as you are with the

0:12
chief of staff, you have your own

0:13
security detail, driven into the White

0:15
House, seeing a former White House chief

0:18
of staff a few blocks from the White

0:19
House standing all alone at a street

0:21
corner waiting to cross the street. And

0:23
it was just a reminder to him of how

0:25
fleeting power is.

0:28
And all the accutrants and accolades

0:31
that go with it, they're all temporary.

0:33
And one day I will stand before God no

0:36
more important than anybody else in the

0:38
world. And it's like I want to be able

0:40
to hear from the Lord, well done, good

0:42
and faithful servant. And I honored God

0:44
with the power that I was given. And I

0:46
used it not for myself but for service

0:48
to others.

Introducing Bill Wichterman

0:55
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

0:58
we welcome Bill Wickerman. Bill served

1:00
as a senior adviser in Washington,

1:02
including as a special assistant to

1:04
President George W. Bush and held senior

1:06
roles on Capitol Hill, working on

1:08
justice-driven policy. Bill has been

1:11
shaped by a deep conviction that

1:12
everything we have is entrusted to us by

1:14
God. That conviction eventually led to

1:16
two books, Dying to Live: On Surrender

1:19
and Disciplehip and Stewards Not Owners,

1:21
co-written with his wife, Dana. Join us

1:24
as Bill shares what it looks like to

1:25
steward power without being consumed by

1:27
it, why humility is one of the most

1:29
underrated leadership virtues, and how

1:31
stewardship is the most important part

1:33
of becoming a great servant leader.

Bill's Career Journey

1:36
Bill, thank you for joining us on the

1:38
servant leadership podcast.

1:39
Thanks for having me, Chris. I am really

1:42
excited because a dear friend introduced

1:45
us and one of the things he told me

1:48
before he introduced us was that Bill

1:51
has had an amazing career in consulting

1:55
and policy and politics and then when I

1:58
looked up that you've been an adviser to

2:00
the president and done other things I

2:02
was like wow I would love to have Bill

2:04
on. How did you first get into politics

2:08
in your career?

Bill's Early Career

2:10
Good question. Actually, uh I was

2:12
planning to be a pastor or missionary

2:14
when I was in college and I did in fact

2:18
spend the first year out of college then

2:19
as a missionary to Turkish guest workers

2:21
in what was then West Berlin, Germany.

2:24
And my little claim to fame, Chris, is

2:26
is that uh I heard that President Reagan

2:29
was going to be speaking at the

2:30
Brandenburgg Gate in 1987. So I

2:33
contacted the embassy and got a ticket

2:35
and I was there for his famous speech,

2:37
Mr. Gorbachoff, tear down this wall. So,

2:39
uh, but I became a student government

2:42
president in college and I found out,

2:45
boy, I loved politics. And so, but I

2:48
thought if I don't go and be a

2:49
missionary first, I'll never be able to

2:51
extricate myself from politics. So, I

2:53
went and did missions first. Did not

2:57
like it. Believe in it. Did not like

2:59
sitting around tea houses all day. I'm a

3:02
very a type guy. And thankfully the Lord

3:04
gave me permission to then go and begin

3:07
working on Capitol Hill uh second year

3:09
out of college and I just worked my way

3:11
up and within about seven years I was a

3:13
chief of staff to a congressman and then

3:15
I went on to policy adviser to the

3:17
Senate majority leader a guy named Bill

3:19
Frist and then special assistant to

3:22
George W. Bush in the White House and

3:24
had a great 20-year run until my wife

3:26
blew the whistle on my career and said,

3:28
"I cannot take your career anymore

3:31
because I would work all the time and it

3:34
would always fall on her. I used to call

3:36
my kids from the empty rotunda, US

3:39
capital, after all the tourists had gone

3:41
for the day and I needed a quiet empty

3:43
place to talk to my kids to say good

3:45
night to them and I would do it from the

3:47
rotunda." So it it was just uh fun,

3:50
intense, long-distance sprint. I didn't

3:53
get tired, but my wife did.

Insights on Government

3:56
When as you were starting at Capitol

3:58
Hill and slowly working your way up,

4:01
what were some of the things you noticed

4:03
about government that you might have

4:06
gone in thinking was true and realized

4:08
wasn't true at all?

4:10
Well, one thing I would say is I think

4:12
there's a a a rampant res perception

4:16
that politics is just a cesspool of

4:19
corruption. Um, and it's not what I

4:22
found. Um, I could probably count on one

4:25
hand the number of truly corrupt people

4:28
I've met in politics over the last 40

4:30
years. Um, I'm not saying they're not

4:33
there, but uh, if you watch House of

4:36
Cards, which I watched one episode of, I

4:39
thought, great drama. Thank God it's not

4:41
like that. Um, so it's not really uh I

4:45
think it's widely perceived to be just

4:49
deeply corrupt. Um, and that's that was

4:52
not my experience at all.

4:54
um a lot of good people including people

4:56
with whom I disagree strongly

4:59
whom I think are doing the wrong things

5:02
but I think in most cases they're doing

5:04
the wrong things for the right reason

5:05
that they're really trying uh to pursue

5:08
justice as they understand it and it's

5:10
it involves a lot of sacrifice to be in

5:12
politics you know if you're a rock star

5:14
which is really what I should have done

5:16
Chris I missed my calling I'm a drummer

5:19
and I really should have been a rockstar

5:20
but everybody likes you or not your

5:23
flavor of music, but there's not many

5:25
people who hate you.

5:26
In politics, generally half of the

5:28
people are going to hate you and you're

5:30
not going to get paid much money. And

5:33
every day you're going to wake up and

5:35
feel like your words were twisted and

5:37
your intents your intentions were

5:40
misunderstood or misconstrued or it's

5:44
it's a tough business and uh it really

5:46
is public service. So I find that most

5:49
people are in politics for um good

5:52
reasons.

Servant Leadership in Politics

5:53
Yeah. I mean it truly is public service.

5:56
So

5:56
yeah.

5:57
Uh as you were working with such great

6:00
leaders in becoming a better leader

6:02
yourself. We talk a lot about servant

6:04
leadership on the podcast. How did you

6:07
see servant leadership playing out with

6:09
the various representatives you worked

6:11
with or presidents or various campaigns

6:15
you worked on? That's such a good

6:16
question and I love the fact that this

6:19
is about servant leadership because to

6:21
me I mean that's what we're called to

6:23
do. We are called to be servants. Uh I

6:26
don't even like using the word love

6:28
because love is now perceived as a noun

6:30
instead of a verb and I'd rather using

6:32
the word serve uh because that's what

6:35
we're called to do. We are called to

6:36
serve. Um doesn't matter how we feel. Um

6:40
our our our call service is the call for

6:43
all of us. service and surrender. That's

6:46
the normal Christian life.

6:48
Um, you would think that pride and

6:53
hubris are the tickets to success in

6:56
politics.

6:58
And there are are exceptions to this.

7:00
I'm not going to name names right now,

7:03
but I would say in general um humility

7:08
uh is an incredibly powerful

7:11
uh political attribute

7:13
and that people perceive it. So some of

7:16
the people for with whom I've worked and

7:18
for whom I worked were so good about

7:22
really paying attention to people,

7:25
looking them in the eye, not looking

7:26
over their shoulder to see who else is

7:28
more important, who else they can

7:30
network with. And I remember meeting

7:33
George HW Bush the first time I met him.

7:36
And it was like in this room full of

7:38
people, I was the only person in the

7:40
world to him.

7:41
Um he just lasered in, looked right at

7:44
you. And I think that sense of um ser

7:48
the sense of service um is very strong

7:52
in some of our best leaders. Uh George

7:54
W. Bush for whom I worked in the White

7:55
House was an incredibly servant-hearted

7:59
guy. Um everybody who worked around him

8:02
from the lowest position to the highest

8:04
position. Um uh he treated with respect

8:08
and dignity and civility and kindness.

8:11
uh just a a really an awesome um way to

8:15
to uh proceed in how he did his

8:18
political life. So I had tremendous

8:21
respect for him. I worked for another

8:23
Bill Frist was that way. Um taking

8:26
senators to Africa on these missions

8:28
trips. Uh Joe Pittz, a congressman

8:32
servant leader. U and I think um I

8:36
remember when I had a lot of power. I

8:38
don't have a lot of power now, but I had

8:40
a lot of power at some points in my

8:41
career. And I remember driving into the

8:46
uh the Capitol building and my office

8:50
was right off the rotunda and kind of

8:53
thinking like,

8:55
you know, you're pretty important,

8:56
Wickerman. And the Holy Spirit was right

8:59
there saying, I gave you this power so

9:03
that you could serve it on behalf of the

9:05
least of these, the voiceless and the

9:07
defenseless. I did not give you this

9:08
power so that you could build up your

9:11
own kingdom of sand. And I think that

9:15
Holy Spirit always being there,

9:19
you know, kind of chiding me, reminding

9:22
me, don't think too much of yourself.

9:24
When I went into the White House, my

9:26
wife, who's a wise, kind, godly person,

9:29
uh said, "Take all the compliments

9:31
you're about to get and cut them all in

9:33
half." Because a lot of them are be

9:36
flattery because people want something

9:37
from you. And so I kept next to my desk

9:40
uh a verse verses from Psalm 103. As for

9:43
man, his days are like grass. He

9:45
flourishes like a flower of the field.

9:47
The wind blows over it and it's gone and

9:50
its place remembers it no more. Uh, just

9:53
remember that this doesn't last. Great

9:56
story. James Baker, chief of staff to

9:59
President Reagan, speaking at the

10:01
National Prayer Breakfast 30, 40 years

10:04
ago, talks about

10:07
being driven in as you are with the

10:09
chief of staff. You have your own

10:10
security detail. driven into the White

10:12
House seeing a former White House chief

10:15
of staff a few blocks from the White

10:16
House standing all alone at a street

10:18
corner waiting to pass, waiting, waiting

10:20
to cross the street.

10:22
And it was just a reminder to him of how

10:24
fleeting power is

10:27
and all the accutrants and accolades

10:30
that go with it. They're all temporary.

10:32
And one day I will stand before God, no

10:35
more important than anybody else in the

10:37
world. And it's like, I want to be able

10:40
to hear from the Lord, well done, good

10:42
and faithful servant. And I honored God

10:44
with the power that I was given, and I

10:46
used it not for myself, but for service

10:48
to others.

Working with George W. Bush

10:50
Wow. That's so powerful. And in that

10:53
visual, thinking about the psalm that

10:55
you just shared, I mean, such a good

10:58
visual. As you were working with George

11:00
W. Bush, what were some of the things

11:03
that you got involved in that really

11:04
impressed you about his leadership and

11:07
how did it impact your leadership

11:09
because you did have a really prominent

11:12
position?

11:14
Well, you know, as I said, he was he was

11:16
great about loving everybody who came

11:18
into the office, powerful, not powerful,

11:21
and people who served him, guys who

11:24
helped him with weight training, the

11:25
Secret Service. I mean, he was just a

11:27
guy who was he was a very downto-earth

11:30
person. Um, and even though he had this

11:33
swagger, um, it was all an external

11:37
thing. It inwardly he was just a humble

11:40
guy. And, um, I I mean, like politics

11:44
uh, is about power, but not as an end,

11:47
as a means. Um, power, we're supposed to

11:50
use power. It's the handmaiden of

11:52
justice rather than the end itself.

11:55
And justice is the reason that we should

11:58
be in politics. Um, and it's to restrain

12:00
injustice and it's to further justice.

12:03
So I think it's hugely critical that um

12:07
that we think of power as temporary and

12:10
a tool and something on loan from God uh

12:15
to be used for his glory and honor, not

12:18
for ourselves. And I think it look

12:20
really easy to get caught up in our own

12:23
um power as we go and to really think

12:26
that we're important and um there's this

12:30
great these great verses that I love.

12:31
I've always thought about my death a

12:34
lot. Not a day passes that I don't think

12:36
about my death. Not because I'm a morbid

12:38
person, but because

12:41
um it helps frame my life. I want to

12:43
live in light of my death. Psalm 39:4-7.

12:47
Show me, oh Lord, my life's end and the

12:48
number of my days. Let me know how

12:51
fleeting is my life. You've made my life

12:53
a mere hand breath. The span of my years

12:56
is as nothing before you. Each man's

12:58
life is about a breath. Man is a mere

13:00
phantom as they go as he goes to and

13:02
fro. He bustles about, but only in vain.

13:04
He heaps up wealth, not knowing who will

13:06
get it. But now, Lord, what do I look

13:09
for? My hope is in you. The sense of my

13:14
days are numbered. I will be forgotten.

13:17
I'll be a lucky man if my great

13:19
grandchildren can even cobble together

13:21
two sentences about me. Right? Um I will

13:24
be long forgotten like everybody else.

13:27
You're ever at a stadium for a sporting

13:29
event, you see like tens of thousands of

13:31
people and you think hundred years from

13:32
now these people will all be gone,

13:35
right? They're gonna they're not going

13:36
to be here and life will have moved on.

13:38
And the question is truly what do we do

13:42
with the time we're given and the power

13:43
we're given? Um it's uh goes to the book

13:46
that we my wife and I just wrote,

13:48
Stewards Not Owners. Uh there's nothing

13:50
we have of which we're not a steward. In

13:52
fact, I would even contest the fact that

13:54
and this is might sound a little bit of

13:57
uh some of your listeners might disagree

13:59
here, but

14:01
my life is not a gift to me. My life can

14:05
be a gift to other people, but my life

14:08
is a responsibility that I've been given

14:10
to steward.

Stewardship and Responsibility

14:12
And the question is, how will I use this

14:16
responsibility that I've been given? Am

14:18
I going to use it well or am I going to

14:20
use it poorly? Am I going to make my

14:22
life be a gift to others or not? But

14:25
it's not a gift to me. It's not

14:27
something a gift to me kind of conotes

14:30
that I get to use it how I want. I don't

14:33
I don't get to breathe any breath except

14:36
unto God. I don't get to have any money

14:39
except unto God. I don't get to have any

14:41
power or children or influence or

14:44
anything except to be used for the glory

14:46
of God. What's the the Westminster cate

14:49
the shorter catechism I think says what

14:51
is the chief end of man to glorify God

14:53
and enjoy him forever. Our job is like

14:57
it says in 1 Corinthians 10:31 so

14:59
whether you eat or drink or whatever you

15:01
do do it all for the glory of God. That

15:03
is our job. or Colossians 3:23,

15:06
"Whatever you do, work at it with all

15:07
your heart as working for the Lord, not

15:09
for men, since you know that you will

15:11
receive an inheritance from the Lord as

15:13
a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are

15:15
serving."

15:16
So all of our life, we never get a

15:18
vacation from serving God.

Writing 'Stewards Not Owners'

15:21
Well, I I love all of that. And you

15:23
bring up the book that you and your wife

15:25
wrote together. Talk about how that even

15:28
came to be and what the book is about in

15:30
a little bit more detail. Well, in a

15:32
sense, we've both been writing this this

15:34
book our whole lives, uh, or at least

15:37
preparing to write it. But I'd say that

15:40
in it really, uh, took root in us when

15:43
we were young married couple, um, going

15:47
to church on Capitol Hill and there were

15:50
some folks there, Dennis and Eileen

15:53
Baky, um, who became billionaires,

15:56
um, and who had such a stewardship

15:58
mindset. Um, I have we have a section of

16:02
the book called Billionaires Who Clean

16:04
Bathrooms because they said for our

16:07
church, we shouldn't hire a custodian.

16:10
We should all take turns cleaning the

16:12
church on weekends. And so I remember

16:15
one time being assigned the same time

16:17
they were and billionaire next to me

16:20
cleaning the stall next, you know, and

16:23
it would such they were such models of

16:26
looking at all things as belonging to

16:28
God. and the Dennis who taught Sunday

16:32
Sunday school classes on financial

16:33
stewardship. So from the start um of our

16:36
marriage uh now 36 years ago we were

16:39
thinking about how um our money is a

16:44
love letter to God and what we do with

16:48
our money shows what where our hearts

16:51
are. Jesus said for where your treasure

16:53
is there your heart will be also. And

16:56
the question is then how what do we do

16:58
with our money and how does it reflect

17:00
our faith in God? Would you be

17:02
comfortable having God look at your

17:04
finances? Oh, and by the way, he can see

17:06
them. Uh, you know, but like is this the

17:08
kind of thing you could sit down and

17:10
say, "Yes, I'm proud of where I'm

17:11
spending, giving, saving, investing."

Financial Stewardship Journey

17:17
Um, and so over time, um, we just kept

17:21
leaning into this. We kept track of all

17:23
of our expenses for all 36 years of our

17:26
marriage. Um, and which by the way,

17:29
that's a superpower strength that if you

17:31
learn that one and anybody can do it.

17:34
Um, especially now it's so easy with

17:36
Quicken or other programs where you just

17:39
automatically download things from your

17:41
debit and credit card and just assign it

17:44
to category. Take an hour a month and

17:46
now you know where your money is going.

17:49
Then you can start from there saying,

17:51
"Okay, is this where my money should be

17:53
going?" Because it's really hard to have

17:56
that discussion. If you don't know where

17:57
the money is going, find out. Live the

17:59
examined life.

18:02
And then uh and we tithed right from the

18:04
beginning of our marriage. And you know,

18:06
before we were both tithers, tithe and

18:09
gross because it's first fruits. Uh, but

18:12
I actually don't even like getting

18:13
involved in that discussion of tithing

18:16
and net versus gross verse too much

18:18
because it's too uh narrow of a

18:21
discussion. That still can often

18:23
presuppose this notion that um what's

18:26
God's cut? Kind of like your taxes.

18:29
Well, federal government, Uncle Sam's

18:31
going to take a cut. The rest is mine.

18:33
With God, it's all his. It's not just

18:37
the 10% he wants. He wants all of it.

18:40
God calls few of us to give away all of

18:43
our money like he asked told the rich

18:46
young ruler to do. But he does ask all

18:49
of us to surrender all of our money.

18:53
And surrender is different than giving

18:55
it away. It's it entails stewardship.

18:59
And so we just got into this community

19:02
of givers and then a community of

19:04
investors of very godly people who were

19:08
sold out and surrendered to God who were

19:10
using their money in fully in service to

19:13
the Lord which didn't mean that they

19:16
didn't go on vacation which didn't mean

19:18
that they didn't maybe some of them have

19:20
drive nice cars or live in nice homes

19:22
and it's different for every person but

19:24
it does mean this that every expense we

19:27
have is under his lord. lordship

19:30
um that there's no part and that God is

19:32
way more interested in owning all of our

19:35
money and by the way all of us

19:39
um and him owning our money is a

19:41
reflection of him owning all of us uh

19:44
than he is in just getting a cut so that

19:47
it goes to the missionaries. It's really

19:49
not his thing. God is not short of cash.

19:52
Um, and so

19:54
we just leaned into living this for, you

19:58
know, a long time, uh, 35 years of our

20:00
marriage before. And then, so we just

20:03
said, let's let's put this down in a

20:04
book. Uh, see how it comes out. It was

20:07
my second book, my wife's, uh, first,

20:09
and we did it together. Uh, we're like

20:12
Run DMC, that old 80s, uh, hiphop, uh,

20:16
group that, uh, completes one another's

20:18
sentences. Um, so you're getting the

20:21
lesser half right now, Chris. Uh, my

20:24
wife is uh more articulate and

20:26
thoughtful and warm uh than I am. When

20:29
people meet my wife, they're like, "Huh,

20:31
maybe Bill's not such a jerk."

Stewardship and Money

20:36
So, yeah, I that we we could talk about

20:41
money all day long. um because there's

20:44
so many aspects to it that I think have

20:46
been underappreciated by the church for

20:48
a long time and kind of a

20:51
two-dimensional view of this is the way

20:53
to fund the church and missionaries as

20:55
opposed to nope this is much bigger than

20:58
that the project of money is really

21:00
about furthering the kingdom of god and

21:02
so we started on the philanthropic side

21:05
of like how do we lean into giving how

21:07
do we get to what's called our finish

21:09
line which we reached a few years ago

21:11
where we said Okay, we now have enough

21:13
money. We could retire. Which is kind of

21:16
normal for people my age. I'm about to

21:18
turn 62. Get a lot of people in this age

21:20
where they're like, "Okay, I can retire

21:22
now." And instead, we were inspired by

21:26
others who said, "Keep going. Just keep

21:29
working and give away everything you

21:31
earn after you pay your taxes." And I

21:34
know that sounds radical to people

21:35
because it's sort of this notion of

21:37
like, well, if I earn, then I should get

21:38
to keep it. It's like, well, it's not

21:40
yours to begin with. And so we're made

21:42
to work. Also, the American dream of

21:45
having these golden years of being a

21:48
professional leisure seeker, I think is

21:51
enimyical to the biblical model for us.

21:54
Um, we are made to work. We worked

21:56
before the fall in the garden. Read

21:59
Randy Alorn's book on heaven. We will we

22:01
will work in heaven. Um, work is what

22:05
we're called to do. The thorns came as a

22:09
result of the fall, but the work was

22:11
already there. And the work was what God

22:14
did, he said. Um, and it's what we're

22:17
supposed to do as well. So, um, even if

22:20
you do stop working for pay, you

22:23
shouldn't stop working.

Balancing Stewardship and Trust

22:24
I'm curious, there's two different

22:27
dynamics that sometimes people hear and

22:29
might be confused by. In the Bible,

22:32
you've got like the parable of the

22:33
talents, which seems like a stewardship

22:37
concept. Yes. And maybe

22:40
uh an alternative viewpoint or different

22:42
conversation is not to store up your

22:45
treasure here on earth and don't worry

22:46
about tomorrow uh because God has is

22:51
sovereign over everything, right? And

22:53
there's this whole concept of like be

22:55
good stewards, but also don't store up

22:58
too much here and don't worry about

22:59
tomorrow, right? because God has your

23:01
back. How do you balance both of those

23:04
things at the same time when you think

23:05
about stewardship?

23:06
So, let me add some more in there

23:08
because we've got Proverbs which has the

23:10
grasshopper and the ant. And the ant is

23:12
the one commended for storing up for the

23:14
future for having savings. You've got

23:17
James 5 which says, "Woe to you rich

23:19
people. Weep and wail because of the

23:20
misery that is coming up upon you and

23:23
infections against um hoarding uh and

23:27
infections against exploitation. We've

23:30
got the guy who had a bumper crop so he

23:32
built bigger barns. So he said, "Ah, I

23:34
can now, you know, I can just be merry

23:36
all of my days, not have to work

23:39
anymore." And God said, you know, this

23:41
fool, this you fool, this day your life

23:43
will be required of you. So you have

23:45
these balances in scripture. So we are

23:47
supposed to be the ant. We are supposed

23:50
to be savers. We're supposed to be

23:51
preparing for the future and we're not

23:53
supposed to be hoarders. So between

23:55
those two poles of be a saver, don't be

23:58
a hoarder. Where's the right mix? Uh

24:02
there is no formula for this that I can

24:05
give you or that anybody can give you

24:07
because it's going to be a different

24:08
question, a different answer for each of

24:10
us. But if we're surrendered to God and

24:14
we talk to the Lord, talk to other godly

24:17
people in community with us to help

24:19
figure this out. Um, and then we say,

24:22
"Well, what is what is God's answer for

24:24
us?" So, if one person can drive a

24:26
really nice car or live in a really nice

24:28
house and the next person can't do that

24:30
at all, this is a conversation between

24:33
you and God. Um, and ultimately the

24:36
question is, are you willing to do

24:37
whatever he asks you to do? And the

24:40
answer has to be yes. if you're a Christ

24:41
follower and then once you've answered

24:43
that now the question is and what is it

24:45
you want me to do right and that's not

24:47
going to be the same answer for each of

24:49
us um we have found because we were

24:52
inspired by the model of others that

24:55
sharing your finances with at least some

24:58
other godly people in your life is

25:00
lifegiving

25:02
and um really revolutionary

25:05
because very often people just if you're

25:07
married it's just you and your spouse if

25:09
you're not married it's maybe nobody.

25:11
And yet, I think we're made to live in

25:14
community. I think we're afraid of being

25:16
judged and so we're afraid to tell other

25:19
people. But we open our books with

25:22
another couple. They see everything.

25:25
They know everything we have. They see

25:27
our budgets. They know our net worth.

25:29
That the whole shmear and vice versa.

25:31
And I think that is so

25:35
uh as I said, lifegiving. Um and then um

25:39
you really think with others about and

25:41
you you kind of like you listen. So in

25:44
my life so often the Lord speaks to me

25:45
through other people. My wife a lot

25:48
obviously through the word. I'm a big

25:50
Bible memorizer as you've probably

25:52
already seen. Um but through community,

25:55
listening to other people's stories,

25:57
which is why we put in our book 24

25:59
stories of people who are great

26:01
stewards. And sometimes you'll hear a

26:04
story and you think doesn't have my name

26:06
on it. another one you're like, "That's

26:07
got my name on it." How do you know

26:10
this? Spend time in Bible study and

26:12
prayer and community with others and

26:14
just pray about it and you get good at

26:17
learning to listen to the Lord's voice

26:20
about how we steward. But it's an

26:22
exciting journey and I think it's one

26:25
too often neglected uh by

Discussing Financial Sharing

0:26:28
Christians of

0:26:30
seeing how finances and all of their

0:26:34
money is uh a way of honoring God.

0:26:34
What if people did want to start sharing

0:26:36
their finances with another couple,

0:26:38
let's say,

0:26:39
that feels like a really awkward

0:26:41
conversation to have with somebody? How

0:26:43
do you even approach that? And what do

0:26:45
you share is how do you even do that?

0:26:48
Because it it sounds really interesting,

0:26:50
but it feels hard to do.

Challenges of Financial Transparency

0:26:52
Really hard. Um, we found that when when

0:26:56
we started trying to do it with some

0:26:58
people in our lives, it was it was as if

0:26:59
we were saying to them, "So, could you

0:27:01
tell me about your underwear?"

0:27:03
It's like that's weird. That's none of

0:27:06
your business, right? Uh and we're not

0:27:09
encouraging people to talk about their

0:27:10
underwear, Chris. But

0:27:13
money is that that's kind of a it's off

0:27:16
limits for a lot of people. By the way,

0:27:18
there's other countries in the world

0:27:19
where this is not the case. If we lived

0:27:20
in Israel, I could ask you, Chris, what

0:27:22
do you make?

Privacy and Financial Openness

0:27:24
And you would be expected to answer and

0:27:25
you'd say back to me, Bill, what do you

0:27:27
make? I mean, it's amazing, right? So we

0:27:30
have though this real privacy this uh

0:27:33
that I think is is unhealthy doesn't

0:27:36
mean that we share it with everybody all

0:27:37
the time. Um there has to be and and to

0:27:40
what end right it can be boastful it can

0:27:43
be um it can provoke jealousy or

0:27:46
covetousness

Benefits of Financial Sharing

0:27:48
but there are times and places where I

0:27:50
think we should be sharing this with

0:27:51
others and um I I think there's just

0:27:55
been too little of this and so finding

0:27:58
the people I mean we go to conferences

0:28:00
where this is an open thing to do uh an

0:28:02
accepted thing u one of the great things

0:28:05
place to go is called uh generous giving

0:28:08
um great awesome organization. Um the

0:28:12
gathering is another one. Um practis

0:28:15
faithdriven investor. Anyway, you find

0:28:17
people who see

Stewardship of God's Resources

0:28:20
uh that all of their everything they

0:28:23
have belongs to God. And so it's more

0:28:26
like let's say Chris, you and I were um

0:28:30
asset managers for somebody else's

0:28:32
money, some wealthy billionaire. You and

0:28:34
I would compare notes about how we're

0:28:37
managing the billionaire's assets. And

0:28:39
we wouldn't feel any sense of like who's

0:28:41
better, who's worse. We're just it's not

0:28:43
our money. We're just we're managing the

0:28:46
assets of this billionaire for whom we

0:28:47
work.

Joyful Financial Stewardship

0:28:49
That's the way I think we should see our

0:28:50
money. It's like it's not ours. We both

0:28:53
belong to God. It's his money. The

0:28:56
question is, how do we steward this in a

0:28:58
way that honors him?

0:29:00
So, I have lots of stories about this,

0:29:02
but of people who who, you know, wrestle

0:29:05
with this, but it's a good wrestling.

0:29:06
It's a joyful wrestling. It's one, it's

0:29:08
a lifegiving wrestling. Um, you'll make

0:29:12
mistakes, but you know, where do you

0:29:14
start with this? Start by keeping track

0:29:16
of your expenses.

Practical Financial Advice

0:29:18
Um, and start saving. Um, living below

0:29:21
your means. Uh, make sure you're tithing

0:29:24
as just as a floor. and then you know

0:29:27
maybe make plans for increasing your

0:29:29
tithe uh year by year. And um so there's

0:29:33
a if you read our book or or if you

0:29:36
don't want to buy the book, the website

0:29:37
is free. www.stewardsowners.com

0:29:42
stewards.com.

Resources for Financial Stewardship

0:29:45
all kinds of resources for you there of

0:29:47
things to read, stories you can hear um

0:29:50
where you can get started on this

0:29:52
journey of making sure that as we say it

0:29:54
in the subtitle of our book, the joy of

0:29:56
aligning your money with your faith.

0:29:58
It's a joyful journey. It's not a

0:30:00
guiltridden journey. It's not an

0:30:02
aesthetic journey. It's not a well there

0:30:04
goes my vacation. Well, I guess no more

0:30:06
eating out kind of journey because the

0:30:09
Lord says via Paul in 1 Timothy 6 um

God's View on Money

0:30:13
that he gives every gives us everything

0:30:15
for our enjoyment and he's clearly

0:30:18
referring about money here. Um and the

0:30:21
Lord is not a divine killjoy.

Visualizing Financial Stewardship

0:30:25
Well, I I think that visual of two

0:30:29
people managing a billionaire's money

0:30:32
talking together about how to manage it

0:30:34
is an amazing visual if you actually

0:30:37
think that the money you have comes from

0:30:39
the Lord. Uh that is such uh I think a

0:30:45
you help people with with that um just

0:30:48
break down a barrier that that they feel

0:30:50
like I know you've told me that you're

0:30:52
working on another book on profit. Uh

Upcoming Book on Profit

0:30:56
how did that one come up and what will

0:30:58
that one be about? So when we were

0:31:00
writing this the the last book we wrote

0:31:02
together, stewards not owners,

0:31:04
it kind of dawned on us the extent to

0:31:06
which profit is part of God's design

0:31:09
before the fall in the garden. God

0:31:12
planted a garden. It didn't say God said

0:31:14
Shazam and a a garden appeared. It said

0:31:17
he planted it and he gave to Adam and

0:31:20
Eve all of the seedbearing plants. Why

0:31:23
did he say why didn't you say a plants?

0:31:25
seedbearing implicit in that is because

0:31:28
they're going to be seeds that you're

0:31:30
going to go plant yourself, do like I

0:31:32
did. Um, and then he said, you're going

0:31:35
to cultivate this garden. What is

0:31:37
cultivation? Cultivation is profit. You

Understanding Profit as Cultivation

0:31:41
don't plant a seed so you can harvest a

0:31:43
seed in the fall. You plant a seed to

0:31:45
harvest much more than a seed. The delta

0:31:48
between the seed and the harvest, that's

0:31:50
called profit. This was before the fall.

0:31:53
It's God's design. Like every good gift

0:31:56
from God, sex, money, everything, it can

0:31:59
be twisted and used for ill, but not

0:32:03
inherently so. And it's there as a way

0:32:07
to contribute to human flourishing.

Profit and Human Flourishing

0:32:09
Profit gives us R&D for new drugs and

0:32:13
cures that beautify our lives. It gives

0:32:16
us clean water. Um, it enables us to

0:32:20
give send our kids to school. Profit is

0:32:23
the driver. Nonprofits only live and

0:32:26
survive because of forprofits somewhere,

0:32:29
right? That's how they can continue.

0:32:32
Forprofits are not just a utilitarian

0:32:35
way of funding nonprofits.

Profit as a Divine Gift

0:32:38
They're the principal way that God uses

0:32:41
to change the world. When you look at

0:32:44
this pie chart in our book of all the

0:32:46
liquid investable assets in the United

0:32:49
States, there's a tiny little slice of

0:32:52
less than 1% slice of pie that's

0:32:55
charitable giving in the US. The other

0:32:58
99% is not charitable giving. I think a

0:33:01
lot of people and even that should be a

0:33:03
bigger pie, piece of pie obviously, but

0:33:05
even if it's 10% or 20% or whatever it

0:33:07
is, it's still not as big as the rest of

0:33:09
the pie. So part of what we uh look at

0:33:11
in our book um and what in our last book

Investment Ethics and Faith

0:33:14
and we're going to be talking in the

0:33:15
next one is what do you do with that in

0:33:17
with your investments? Do you invest in

0:33:20
strip clubs or pornography because

0:33:22
they're doing really well and giving

0:33:24
great returns so you can give more money

0:33:26
to the missionaries? Of course not.

0:33:28
Right? God wants no illotten gains.

Aligning Investments with Faith

0:33:32
So we ought to be thinking about where

0:33:35
we're investing, not just what our risk

0:33:37
tolerance is.

0:33:40
And so we talk about aligning your

0:33:42
investments uh with our with our faith

0:33:45
as well. But uh the the whole notion of

0:33:48
profit is something to be celebrated,

0:33:49
not to be felt guilty about. And we

0:33:51
don't think, well, they're really good

0:33:53
business. They minimize their profits.

0:33:55
That might not be the way God wants,

0:33:57
right? So um can't turn into

0:34:01
exploitation. That's wrong. Can't turn

0:34:04
shouldn't be used in greedy ways. That's

0:34:06
wrong. Um, we shouldn't be exploiting

0:34:08
workers. That's wrong. Um, but profit is

0:34:12
a good gift of God that we should

0:34:14
celebrate.

Bill's Career in Policy

0:34:16
Wow. So, after a political career, you

0:34:20
started writing some books. You also got

0:34:22
into a lot of consulting and public

0:34:25
policy. Talk a little bit about what

0:34:28
that even means because I hear people

0:34:29
after a political career get involved in

0:34:32
public policy and consulting. What does

0:34:34
that look like? And why is that

0:34:36
something that interested you as a

0:34:37
leader?

Bill's Passion for Justice

0:34:38
Yeah. Well, I've been in policy now for

0:34:40
four decades. I mean, policy is for me

0:34:42
about justice, right? And I want just

0:34:45
policies and I want to stop and inhibit

0:34:48
um unjust policies. So, when I worked in

0:34:52
politics and government, I had bosses,

0:34:54
the president of the United States, the

0:34:56
majority leader, a member of Congress.

0:34:58
Uh now I have uh clients that are

0:35:01
corporations. Um, and I do things that I

0:35:04
agree with and that I think are

0:35:06
furthering justice. So, I do a lot in

0:35:08
the real realm of patent policy. Um,

Patents and Creativity

0:35:10
which I could wax eloquent about how

0:35:13
patents are near and dear to God's heart

0:35:15
because God is creative and he made us

0:35:17
to be creative and patents encourage and

0:35:20
incentivize creativity and innovation

0:35:23
which God loves and they lead to human

0:35:25
flourishing. So, um, I'm still in the

0:35:28
justice realm uh, albeit with now

0:35:31
private sector uh bosses for whom I work

0:35:34
rather than public sector bosses for

0:35:37
whom I had worked. Um and so yeah, I

0:35:40
love I it's macro, it's justiceoriented.

0:35:43
I love justice. I'm I'm I'm a guy driven

0:35:46
by anger at injustice and love of

0:35:49
justice. And so I get to be in that

0:35:52
field and I consider myself so blessed

0:35:55
that I've been able to have a career in

0:35:56
this space.

Rapidfire Questions

0:35:58
I love that. Well, Bill, I want to

0:36:01
finish with 10 rapidfire questions where

0:36:04
I'm just gonna say quick questions and

0:36:06
you say the first thing that comes to

0:36:08
mind. No wrong answer.

0:36:09
Okay.

Servant Leadership Inspiration

0:36:10
Who's the first person you think of when

0:36:13
I say servant leadership?

0:36:15
H uh other than Jesus, right? Um yes.

0:36:19
So, uh I think George W. Bush is is a

0:36:24
great prominent example. You're the

0:36:26
second person on the podcast ever to say

0:36:28
that, which is great.

Describing Bill in Five Words

0:36:30
Multiple people agree. Um,

0:36:32
five words to most describe you.

0:36:36
Uh, passionate, uh, energetic,

0:36:41
uh,

0:36:43
ideasoriented,

0:36:45
uh, sociable and happy.

Favorite Book and Author

0:36:48
Love it. Favorite book or author?

0:36:51
Uh, not counting the Bible. Um, probably

0:36:54
favorite author CS Lewis hands down and

0:36:57
any one of Lewis's books I could count

0:36:59
almost as a favorite, but I'm going to

0:37:00
say Brothers Caramatov by uh by uh Andre

0:37:04
by um Theodore Dustfski because it was

0:37:08
what helped uh bring me back to faith

0:37:11
when I had lost my faith in college and

0:37:13
had become an atheist after having been

0:37:15
a strong Christian. And I came back to

0:37:17
faith understanding that if there is no

0:37:19
God, everything is permissible. And I

0:37:21
came to realize the shadow proves the

0:37:23
sunshine. I know injustice exists and

0:37:25
therefore there must be a god.

Favorite Cuisine

0:37:27
Wow. All right. Favorite food?

0:37:32
Ethiopian or Indian?

Hobbies and Surprising Facts

0:37:35
Wow. Favorite thing to do in your free

0:37:37
time?

0:37:37
Sailing. I have a sailboat.

0:37:40
Well, and this might fit into that, but

0:37:42
what's a surprising fact about you? Uh,

0:37:45
I look like a conservative Republican

0:37:48
and inside the way I see myself and the

0:37:51
way I feel is I have earrings on both

0:37:54
ears and sleeve of tattoos and long hair

0:37:59
and I like loud, hard, fast rock music

0:38:02
as a drummer.

Favorite Travel Destinations

0:38:04
I like that. Where's your favorite place

0:38:06
you've been?

0:38:09
Oh my goodness,

0:38:11
that's a hard one. Uh, we travel a lot

0:38:13
around the world. Switzerland and we

0:38:16
hail from Switzerland originally when I

0:38:17
did my genealogy. So, yeah, Switzerland

0:38:19
is the best best place.

Travel Wishlist

0:38:21
Is there anywhere in the world you'd

0:38:23
want to go that you have not been to?

0:38:25
Yes, I would love to go to Iran. A

0:38:27
little dangerous right now. I would love

0:38:29
to see North Korea. Um,

0:38:33
I still haven't made it to India where

0:38:35
my wife used to live. So, I've got to

0:38:36
get to India.

Best Advice Received

0:38:38
All right. Best advice you've ever

0:38:39
received.

0:38:42
It's not about you.

0:38:45
Um, it's about serving God.

Importance of Servant Leadership

0:38:47
I like that. All right. And finally, we

0:38:49
talk a lot about servant leadership on

0:38:51
the podcast, as you know. Why do you

0:38:54
think it's important for people to learn

0:38:56
to be better servant leaders?

0:38:58
Because it comports with the way the

0:39:00
world is and it comports with how we're

0:39:02
made. I begin my day with this liturgy

0:39:05
that I made up on my own. Said, "You

0:39:07
made me, you saved me, you own me, and

0:39:09
you love me. There's nothing I have

0:39:10
that's not from you. There's nothing

0:39:12
that I have not not a gift. I will

0:39:14
choose not to fear my future because you

0:39:16
will be with me. And I will choose to

0:39:17
rejoice in today's hardships as an

0:39:19
opportunity to become more like you.

Closing Remarks

0:39:22
Wow,

0:39:23
that's good. You should put that on your

0:39:26
website.

0:39:26
It's in our book.

0:39:28
Okay. Well, that I'm so thankful for you

0:39:31
being on the podcast. We're going to

0:39:33
link where people can go check out the

0:39:35
website, check out the book, multiple

0:39:36
books actually, uh and just continue to

0:39:40
learn from you. Thank you for sharing

0:39:41
your wisdom.

0:39:42
Thanks for having me on, Chris.

Podcast Outro

0:39:43
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0:39:45
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0:39:48
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