Bitcoin's Fixed Supply

0:00
the supply of money has changed. Um, and

0:03
what Bitcoin does is it has a fixed

0:06
supply, so it's a lot easier to plan for

0:09
and it it holds its value, so there's

0:11
more incentive to hold it and so on. Uh,

0:14
which makes for a lot better economics

0:17
and uh and you wouldn't think that

0:19
something like that would affect so many

0:22
things, but it actually does.

Welcome Jimmy Song

0:29
Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

0:31
we welcome Jimmy Song. Jimmy is one of

0:33
the most respected voices in the Bitcoin

0:35
world and known to many as the Bitcoin

0:38
cowboy. After years in the startup

0:40
space, he made the jump into Bitcoin

0:42
early and has since become a developer,

0:44
educator, and author dedicated to

0:46
helping people actually understand

0:48
Bitcoin. He is the author of multiple

0:50
books, including Programming Bitcoin,

0:52
Thank God for Bitcoin, and Fiat Ruins

0:55
Everything. What makes Jimmy's

0:57
perspective stand out is that he does

0:58
not talk about Bitcoin simply as a

1:00
technology or an investment. He talks

1:03
about money as a moral issue, about

1:05
Bitcoin as a human rights tool, and

1:07
about sound money as a form of

1:09
stewardship. Join us as we talk about

1:11
how Bitcoin works, why it's different

1:13
from the money most of us use everyday,

1:15
and the practical first steps for people

1:17
who want to understand Bitcoin and

1:18
blockchain.

Bitcoin Cowboy Nickname

1:20
I have been following you for so many

1:22
years that it it's such a pleasure to

1:24
have you on. Um when I first bumped into

1:27
you, it was when I was trying to learn

1:29
about cryptocurrency uh and Bitcoin and

1:33
I'm sure you've seen this, but people

1:34
call you the Bitcoin cowboy. Um you've

1:37
got a lot of fun nicknames. Talk about

1:40
how you got into cryptocurrency

1:43
early on.

Jimmy's Bitcoin Journey

1:45
Yeah. So, I I got into Bitcoin back in

1:48
2011 when I uh read a story about it on

1:51
a um news for nerds website called

1:55
slasht.org. And I was working at a

1:58
startup and I saw it. I didn't know

2:01
anything about it. And uh you know, I'm

2:03
I'm a programmer by trade so that that

2:05
was how I got into it. I was part of a

2:07
startup as well. Um, and I spent the

2:10
rest of the day like figuring out what

2:11
it was. And uh, and that's how I got

2:14
into it. This is before, you know, the

2:16
cryptocurrency moniker was even a thing

2:19
because uh, back then it was just

2:22
Bitcoin. There wasn't anything else. And

2:25
uh, and yeah, the first altcoins I think

2:28
came like uh, I don't know, six or seven

2:30
months later. Um, you know, I I started

2:33
coding and contributing in 2013. I

2:37
started becoming more of a uh

2:40
personality in the space in 2017 and uh

2:43
you know started writing books and stuff

2:46
in 2018

2:48
uh and now here we are. So yeah that

2:50
that's uh

2:51
yeah it's it's been a interesting

2:53
journey.

Explaining Bitcoin Basics

2:54
For those listening that don't know what

2:56
Bitcoin is or don't understand Bitcoin

3:00
explain Bitcoin and the whole crypto

3:02
space.

3:03
Oh yeah. So, um,

3:06
yeah, it's obviously a big topic and,

3:08
uh, and something that I've, uh, I've

3:11
had to answer quite quite a few times.

3:13
Um, but, uh, but basically, Bitcoin is

3:17
digital,

3:19
um,

3:21
uh, scarce, digital, scarce, and

3:24
decentralized. Those are the three

3:26
properties that sort of make it Bitcoin.

3:28
And it's uh it's unintuitive to most

3:30
people because when they think of

3:32
something that's decentralized and

3:34
scarce, they think, "Okay, it's it's got

3:36
to be something physical like gold or

3:38
something like that." Um or they think

3:41
it's uh centralized scarce and digital

3:43
uh like, you know, um something like

3:46
coupons at at an e-commerce site or

3:49
something like that, one time used

3:50
coupons or u tickets to a concert or

3:53
something like that that you get on your

3:55
phone. Um, those are all digital things,

3:57
but they're scarce because it's

3:59
controlled by a central party. Um,

4:02
decentralized things like gold in the

4:04
physical world. Um, you know, anyone can

4:06
go and dig up. If I if I have gold in my

4:09
backyard and I dig it up, that's mine,

4:12
right? And I can sell it and and that's

4:14
totally fine. Uh something like the US

4:16
dollar though, if I go and print it in

4:18
my backyard, then I'm and I I try to use

4:21
it, people will arrest me because that's

4:25
illegal. All right, it's centrally

4:26
controlled. So for a lot of people, it's

4:28
it's a little unintuitive because it's

4:30
both decentralized, scarce, and or it's

4:34
all three of decentralized, scarce, and

4:36
digital. Um and until Satoshi Nakamoto

4:40
made Bitcoin in 2009, um we didn't think

4:43
that was possible. Anything that's

4:45
decentralized in the digital world is

4:47
like infinitely copyable, right? Like if

4:50
uh I'm sure you're familiar with like u

4:53
a music file or an EPUB or something

4:56
like that. You can copy them with

4:59
perfect fidelity and if it's digital and

5:01
decentralized, it doesn't like there's

5:04
no intuitive reason how it can be uh

5:07
scarce. Uh but you it can be scarce and

5:10
that's what um Satoshi Nakamoto figured

5:13
out with uh with Bitcoin and that's uh

5:15
that's what makes it kind of unique.

5:17
It's scarce digital and decentralized

5:19
and th those are those are properties

5:21
that we've never had in anything before

5:24
and to a large degree that's the only

5:27
it's the only thing that we know that

5:29
has those properties and all of these

5:31
other things in the cryptocurrency

5:33
industry are actually centralized. So

5:36
they're um they're sort of laring as

5:39
something that's decentralized. And uh

5:42
if if you get anything out of this uh

5:44
part of my explanation, it's that uh

5:47
cryptocurrency and Bitcoin are not the

5:49
same thing. Bitcoin and altcoins are not

5:51
the same thing. And Bitcoin is very

5:53
unique in that it is decentralized. All

5:55
of these other things have a creator,

5:57
have a foundation, have some sort of

5:59
central uh organization that determines

6:02
what the supply is. For example, uh

6:04
something like Ethereum, which is the

6:06
second most popular cryptocurrency,

6:08
uh has a uh you know, they they've

6:11
changed their monetary policy something

6:13
like 30 times. And it's not very

6:14
different than the Federal Reserve. So,

6:17
um yeah, it's uh it's decentralized

6:20
digital money. That's that's how I

6:21
describe it. And that's that's what

6:23
Bitcoin is. So when when you first got

6:26
into the space and you were trying to

6:27
understand Bitcoin, uh it was probably

6:29
confusing back then because there

6:31
weren't as many good resources, still

6:33
confusing for a lot of people now, but

6:35
you made a big jump from the startup

6:37
world. Uh and you'd been involved in

6:39
quite a few startups, at least as I

6:41
understand it. Why make the jump from

6:44
startups to being so interested in this?

From Startups to Bitcoin

6:48
Well, I I was uh kind of I I guess

6:52
blackpilled. you you could say uh during

6:55
the 2008 financial crisis. I'm sure you

6:58
remember that was a that was kind of a

7:00
big moment for a lot of people like uh I

7:04
I still remember watching on TV as uh I

7:07
think it was George W. Bush and then uh

7:09
Barack Obama right after him saying, you

7:12
know, we we need these bailouts for

7:13
banks and it's going to cost $800

7:15
billion. And you know, that doesn't

7:18
sound like that much money now. that's

7:19
like less than the market cap of uh of

7:22
Google or Facebook or and Nvidia and all

7:26
those other companies. But back then

7:28
that was just like an unfathomable

7:30
amount of money for anyone that was

7:32
around back then. It was just kind of

7:33
like $800 billion are like federal

7:36
deficits only 4 trillion. How like where

7:39
is this money coming from? And uh and

7:42
when I investigated that that was um uh

7:47
you know I I learned that it it wasn't

7:49
going to be through taxes. it was just

7:51
going to be through money printing that

7:52
it was just, you know, uh, the Federal

7:55
Reserve just creating this money out of

7:57
nothing and essentially giving these

7:59
banks a bunch of loans that, you know,

8:02
with very little collateral, uh, or it

8:05
it had collateral, but it was like on

8:07
nominal terms and stuff. And all this

8:09
stuff, uh, from 2008 kind of prepped me

8:12
for when I learned about it in 2011,

8:15
where I kind of got it right away. uh

8:18
because I had read uh you know Ron

8:20
Paul's and the Fed and uh you know

8:22
learned about monetary policy and stuff

8:24
and honestly for a lot of people that

8:26
stuff is boring and dry and they don't

8:28
really understand it but when it finally

8:30
hits you right like with inflation or

8:33
something like that then you start

8:36
asking questions and this is exactly the

8:38
rabbit hole you end up going down. It's

8:40
like why why are beef prices, you know,

8:42
double what they were before the

8:45
pandemic or some in some cases like

8:47
triple, right? Uh and you find out it's

8:50
because there's a larger supply of

8:52
money, right? That's that's all it is.

8:54
There's more money chasing the same

8:56
amount of goods. Uh the production of

8:58
beef hasn't gone up that much, but the

9:00
production of dollars has, and therefore

9:03
it's going to cost more. Um and that

9:05
that's essentially what's happening. Uh

9:07
same thing with real estate and many

9:08
other things. So, um, so I I was, I

9:12
guess, predisposed to understanding it

9:15
when I met it. And, and that's kind of

9:17
what happened. And I mean, that's not to

9:20
say that I quit the startups or

9:22
whatever. I I did more startups uh, from

9:26
on. I uh, I actually like didn't get

9:29
into the Bitcoin space until 2013, 2014.

9:33
And at one point, I had a full-time job

9:35
while, you know, doing Bitcoin on the

9:38
side. Uh and and then I joined a couple

9:41
of um different Bitcoin startups and it

9:45
wasn't until 2017 really that I you know

9:48
decided to go off on my own and uh and

9:51
try something and uh and honestly that

9:53
was one of the best decisions I ever

9:55
made.

Bitcoin vs. Fiat Currency

9:56
Wow. I I mean you talk about that

9:58
example of just there's more money

10:00
pouring in and it causes prices to go

10:02
up. It doesn't actually change the

10:03
supply. I've heard you talk about how

10:05
Bitcoin is the fix to a lot of bad

10:07
money. Uh explain why Bitcoin is

10:11
different than than what you just

10:14
explained in terms of how the US or

10:16
other countries are printing money.

10:18
Yeah. So the big thing about um fiat

10:22
currency is that it does have what they

10:25
call an elastic supply and um you know

10:29
not surprisingly it's always elastic

10:31
going outward, right? doesn't contract

10:33
very often and uh and does so very very

10:37
rarely and only for very short periods

10:39
of time. It's constantly expanding. To

10:42
give you an idea of how much it's

10:44
expanding, um the M2 money supply, which

10:47
is one measure of how much money there

10:50
is in the world, right, of a particular

10:52
currency, uh of the US dollar in 1959

10:56
was $289 billion. That was all the money

11:00
that was all the dollars that existed in

11:03
in uh in this particular uh if if you're

11:06
counting it in this particular way. Um

11:09
by 2022,

11:12
right? Uh it was some the M2 money

11:15
supply was somewhere around 22 trillion.

11:18
Okay, so it went from 289 billion to$22

11:24
trillion. That's about a 70x increase,

11:27
right? That's that's an enormous

11:29
increase. So if you had a dollar in

11:32
1959,

11:34
that dollar was it it was one over 289

11:40
billion of of the supply. But if you

11:44
kept it, then now it's one over 22

11:47
trillion of the supply. So it it's

11:50
there's way more dollars uh you know 70

11:54
times more dollars. And obviously it's

11:56
uh not just in the United States spread

11:58
all over the world. If if you know

12:00
anything about uh other countries uh

12:03
especially ones undergoing

12:04
hyperinflation they want dollars because

12:06
it's more scarce than their currency

12:08
which is even worse uh often times uh

12:11
hyperinflating and things like that. So

12:14
the uh supply of fiat currency is

12:17
elastic. The supply of Bitcoin is fixed.

12:21
It's at uh 21 million. It will never

12:24
increase and it's uh enforced by code.

12:27
It's uh and unless literally everybody

12:30
on the network agrees for agrees to

12:33
change it uh it's going to stay at 21

12:36
million. And that's uh most people get

12:39
into it for that reason because it's

12:41
something scarce. And that's uh that's a

12:44
very important property of money. And

12:46
this is why gold works so well for so

12:49
long was because the supply is actually

12:53
very difficult to increase for gold. And

12:55
historically um it has increased at

12:59
maybe 2% a year. Uh the supply of gold

13:02
uh and you know above ground gold is uh

13:05
is relatively rare, right? it it's it's

13:08
actually very difficult to go mine for

13:10
gold and the cost of mining for 1 ounce

13:13
of gold tends to uh trend towards the um

13:17
actual value of 1 ounce of gold the

13:20
those two meet. So that's what makes uh

13:24
uh Bitcoin so powerful because it's

13:26
absolutely scarce and you can predict uh

13:29
you know how much purchasing power

13:32
you're going to have with that uh and

13:34
you can plan for the future that way.

13:36
Whereas if you're holding the dollar,

13:38
it's kind of a melting ice cube. Again,

13:40
if you held since 1959, you would have

13:43
170th of the uh of the supply uh that

13:48
you had back in 1959. Uh which is why

13:51
like it used to be a big deal to be

13:53
quote unquote a millionaire uh because

13:56
that was actually a significant part of

13:58
the supply. It's it's not so much

13:59
anymore, right? Because there's so much

14:02
of a supply and all all of these uh

14:04
companies that had like trillion dollar

14:06
valuations that was unheard of even like

14:09
a decade ago. And the reason why is

14:12
because there's way more money, right?

14:15
Where way more supply of money. And

14:17
that's that's why uh you know the these

14:20
companies are worth so much and these

14:21
houses are worth so much and so much uh

14:24
and so on because the supply of money

14:27
has changed. Um and what Bitcoin does is

14:30
it has a fixed supply. So it's a lot

14:33
easier to plan for and it it holds its

14:36
value so there's more incentive to hold

14:38
it and so on. uh which makes for a lot

14:42
better economics and uh and you wouldn't

14:44
think that something like that

14:47
would affect so many things but it

14:49
actually does and I I document uh a lot

14:52
of those things in my uh in my various

14:55
books especially the latest one fiat

14:57
ruins everything. How does Bitcoin hold

14:59
value? Because when people talk about

15:01
the dollar, they often talk about how

15:03
it's tied to gold and backed by gold and

15:06
there's like an asset and obviously one

15:08
of the things that people talk about

15:10
with Bitcoin is it's just made up and

15:13
there's nothing it doesn't it's not

15:15
backed by anything. Talk about where

15:17
that uh understanding might be

15:19
misinformed or or how you view that.

Bitcoin's Value and Misconceptions

15:22
Yeah. So first of all, the US dollar is

15:24
not backed by gold. it it stopped being

15:26
backed by gold in 1971 which is 55 years

15:30
ago. And uh and the reason was because

15:34
the uh excess of the 60s essentially the

15:37
Great Society programs and the war in

15:40
Vietnam uh made it so that the US

15:44
printed way more money uh than and uh

15:48
distributed it throughout the world um

15:51
to fund those things rather than

15:53
actually tax. uh and the bill

15:56
essentially became due in the 70s and

15:58
you saw a lot of inflation in the 70s

16:01
not just in the US but all over the

16:03
world. Um but that uh that was uh Nixon

16:09
essentially uh you know untying it from

16:12
gold. It used to be that uh nominally at

16:15
least uh uh 1 ounce of gold was $35 and

16:20
that uh it was that number from 1934

16:25
uh when FDR changed it from $2067.

16:30
And the reason why he did that was to

16:32
expand the money supply so he could uh

16:35
fund all the u new deal programs and so

16:38
on because you know he didn't uh taxes

16:40
were unpopular and he he didn't want to

16:42
go down that route. So he used uh

16:45
inflation which is essentially a stealth

16:47
tax and that's uh that's what it all is.

16:50
So, um, the notion that, uh, you know,

16:56
we're backed by gold or that the US

16:58
dollar represents anything is is kind of

17:03
not the right, uh, way to view things.

17:05
It's it's actually backed by nothing.

17:06
It's it's backed by, you know, quote

17:09
unquote the full faith and credit of the

17:11
US government. But, I mean, they they

17:13
just print more money um, whenever they

17:16
need to. And uh you know the the uh

17:19
national deficit is like one of the ways

17:22
in which you can see just how much

17:24
excess that they've spent over the

17:26
years. Um but you know it's it's always

17:29
kind of printed into existence because

17:31
the Federal Reserve is the de uh lender

17:34
of last resort and you know when no one

17:36
buys the treasuries uh that that's who

17:39
ends up buying those treasuries that no

17:41
one else wants. Um and that's happening

17:43
more and more because a lot of other

17:45
countries are not buying US treasuries

17:48
instead they're buying gold right now.

17:51
Uh because the petro dollar standard

17:54
essentially ended like three or four

17:55
years ago um when uh Saudi Arabia

17:59
started selling their oil for uh the

18:03
yuan and euro. So um you know the the

18:07
entire edifice is kind of kind of

18:09
crumpling around uh the the dollar. So

18:12
this is where um Bitcoin is very useful

18:15
because it's it's absolutely scarce. Um

18:19
and you know this idea that it needs to

18:21
be quote unquote backed by something

18:23
real uh or something physical that's

18:26
unfortunately

18:28
uh a bias of people that tend to be

18:30
older and don't understand that digital

18:32
things can have value. uh you know I

18:35
mean how you you pay for Netflix that's

18:37
obviously all digital and it has value

18:39
for you uh why why you know why why

18:43
can't other things and you know younger

18:45
generations they they kind of understand

18:47
they they've bought I don't know like a

18:49
nice sword or something on a MMO or RPG

18:53
or something like that um and it's

18:56
completely digital or a skin on like

18:58
Counter Strike or something like that

19:00
they they understand that digital things

19:02
can have value so they they don't have

19:04
uh as much of uh hesitation around it

19:08
but for older people they they get

19:11
caught up on that but I would tell you

19:13
that vast majority of the US dollar is

19:16
also digital um something like uh 3 to

19:19
4% of all US dollars are physical the

19:23
other 96 95 96%

19:27
they're they're all digital you know

19:29
their numbers on in some database uh

19:32
maybe at your bank or something like

19:33
that and you know for large transactions

19:36
you very rarely you know take a suitcase

19:38
of uh $100 bills and go pay for a house

19:41
or something like that that that just

19:43
doesn't happen except in maybe

19:45
hyperinflating countries or something

19:47
like that. Um vast majority of time you

19:50
get a certified check and and give it to

19:53
the other person or do an a transfer or

19:56
something like that. It's all digital.

19:58
It's it's

20:00
not physical at all. It's not backed by

20:02
anything. So, like, yeah, I that's

20:05
that's how the world works already. It's

20:07
it's just uh people kind of have a

20:11
special case for Bitcoin because they

20:12
it's new and they don't understand it

20:14
and they want to figure figure out

20:16
what's wrong with it or something like

20:18
that.

Money as a Moral Issue

20:19
Well, it's it's helpful to have that

20:20
understanding. One of the things that I

20:23
that drew me to your content was how you

20:26
talk about money regardless of Bitcoin

20:28
or US dollars or any currency. how you

20:32
talk about money and how it's really a

20:34
moral issue. Uh talk about how you kind

20:38
of went down that path and realized that

20:40
money is a moral issue versus just

20:44
money.

20:46
Yeah, I money is a moral issue. And uh

20:49
usually when uh Christians talk about

20:52
money, it's it's about what you're doing

20:55
with it, right? They they see it as sort

20:57
of like this uh morally neutral tool.

21:00
And the only thing that matters is what

21:02
you actually do with the money itself.

21:04
So if you're using dollars to um I don't

21:08
know create a well in Africa, that's a

21:10
good thing. But if you're using dollars

21:12
to go hire a prostitute or uh you know

21:15
buy drugs or uh gamble or something,

21:17
then then then it's bad. And that's the

21:19
only sort of relationship money might

21:22
have with morality. uh but actually if

21:25
you if you look back at uh you know

21:27
Christian history and uh read the

21:31
analysis of a lot of uh a lot of

21:34
Christian intellectuals throughout

21:35
history I mean like going way back um

21:38
you know Nicolme who's a who's a French

21:42
bishop from the 13th century

21:45
um wrote about

21:48
uh wrote about money and the production

21:50
of money and whether uh you know that

21:52
was ethical or not. And back then, the

21:54
way that money uh inflated was through

21:58
debasement. So, you would have a coin

22:00
that was made out of metal and uh and

22:03
you know, it it would say, I don't know,

22:05
some like 1 ounce of silver or something

22:07
like that. And uh and by the way, this

22:09
is why almost every unit of money is

22:12
like a unit of weight. It used to be

22:15
that um uh you know, something like LRA,

22:18
pound, shekele, these are all units of

22:21
weight. And that's how much metal was

22:24
supposed to be in a particular coin.

22:26
When when you had a temple shekele, it

22:28
was literally a particular weight of

22:31
silver. And that's that's what the coin

22:33
represented. Now, if you're a sovereign,

22:36
if you're a king or something like that,

22:38
uh you you you issue these coins saying

22:41
this this has this much weight in it.

22:43
But uh the temptation was always to you

22:46
know take these and instead of putting

22:49
that much it's supposed to have like one

22:52
uh one pound of silver in a particular

22:56
coin or something like that. Instead you

22:59
reduce it uh right and put half a pound

23:02
of silver and put half a pound of some

23:05
other metal and just uh you know but it

23:08
still says one pound or something like

23:10
that. That is what the basement was,

23:13
right? And this was something that a lot

23:15
of kings did. And Nicolola Resme in in

23:19
the 13th century wrote about how that is

23:22
just straight up theft and it's deceit

23:24
and it's wrong and the money itself is

23:28
immoral if you're doing that right. Uh

23:30
and uh now with something like metal,

23:34
it's uh it's actually kind of costly to

23:36
do. You have to melt it down, recast it,

23:38
and do all this other stuff. uh with

23:42
digital fiat money, right? Uh the

23:45
at least the system that we have now, it

23:48
is infinitely easier cuz it is literally

23:51
just pressing a button. It's you don't

23:53
you don't you don't even have to print

23:54
paper. Um you you can do it really

23:58
really easily. And um that's what we

24:01
talk about in thank God for Bitcoin is

24:03
is the morality of the moni monetary

24:06
system itself. If if it's got a lot of

24:10
vulnerabilities, if it's got this uh way

24:14
to abuse it very very easily,

24:17
then the system itself is kind of

24:19
immoral, right? And and it it it's uh it

24:24
it's leading you to unrighteousness in

24:27
ways that uh other systems might not.

24:29
So, you know, if if you have um a system

24:34
that does make immoral behavior much

24:38
much easier, then it's a worse system

24:40
than one that makes it more difficult.

24:43
And that's essentially why we argue that

24:45
Bitcoin is a more moral money because it

24:48
makes cheating, right, stealing, all of

24:52
those things much much more difficult uh

24:55
than than in a fiat system, which is

24:58
where people are stealing and they don't

25:00
even know it, right? Like

25:01
the fact that you can take out a

25:03
mortgage uh current I think 30-year

25:06
mortgage rates are five or 6% somewhere

25:09
around there. That is a very very low

25:12
rate. And you have to ask yourself why

25:15
why are the rates so low? Because if you

25:17
think about it, who's on the other side

25:19
of that trade, right? Who is willing to

25:23
loan you half a million dollars for 30

25:26
years at 6%. Like who's making that

25:30
investment? If you know anything about

25:32
investing, that is a terrible return.

25:34
the term is too long, the amount too

25:36
high and you know the interest rate not

25:39
high enough. Um like the hurdle rate

25:42
right now is at least 7%. Right? Like

25:45
that that you can easily get that in the

25:47
S&P 500. You can easily get that in a

25:50
lot of real estate and stuff like that.

25:52
Why why would you do that? Why why would

25:55
you do that? And the answer is that no

25:58
one is on the other side of the trade.

25:59
The other side of the trade is the bank

26:01
printing money on your behalf. So, a lot

26:04
of people don't realize when they're

26:06
taking out a mortgage, they're actually

26:08
expanding the money supply. And who who

26:10
does that hurt? Well, doesn't hurt any

26:12
one person in particular. Hurts

26:15
everybody. Everybody's dollar is uh

26:19
reduces in purchasing power just a

26:21
little bit by you expanding the money

26:24
supply by $500,000 or whatever it is. Um

26:28
the bank makes interest on the payments

26:30
that you make. So, they they benefit.

26:32
you get access to capital at a very

26:34
cheap interest rate. And uh but who it

26:38
hurts is everybody else that's holding

26:40
the dollar. And it's not just the people

26:42
in the United States, it's people around

26:45
the world. Um a lot of people don't know

26:47
this, but one of the the the most

26:50
desirable currency in the North Korean

26:52
black market is physical US dollars. So,

26:56
there's a lot of people around the world

26:58
that hold US dollars, including people

27:00
in North Korea who are getting diluted

27:04
when you take out your mortgage, which

27:06
not a lot of people make that

27:08
connection, but it's true, right? Uh

27:10
you're you're actually stealing just a

27:13
little bit, not very much, but it's it

27:15
it adds up when you uh uh add it up over

27:18
all the different people that that are

27:20
holding the dollar. But you're stealing

27:23
from North Korean orphans, right? Like

27:25
you're you're stealing from the Nigerian

27:28
businessmen. You're stealing from

27:30
Venezuelans that are trying to

Unrighteousness in Money

0:27:33
bread, right? Like that that's that's

0:27:36
what you're doing. And a lot of people

0:27:38
don't even realize that they're doing

0:27:39
that when they're taking out these loans

0:27:41
for, you know, half a million dollars or

0:27:43
whatever. And and that's the

0:27:45
unrighteousness that needs to be rooted

0:27:48
out. And this is this is what I mean

0:27:50
when I say that it is a lot easier uh to

0:27:54
practice unrighteousness under an

0:27:56
immoral money and a lot harder under a

0:27:59
sound money under good money.

Bitcoin as Human Rights Tool

0:28:02
Well, I've heard you talk about Bitcoin

0:28:04
as a human rights tool, right? Not

0:28:06
necessarily an investment, but a human

0:28:08
rights tool. And I think it goes to

0:28:09
that. But how is it different when the

0:28:14
value of a bitcoin becomes harder and

0:28:16
harder and harder for people to attain

0:28:19
any portion of a bitcoin? Um

Egalitarianism and Bitcoin

0:28:23
how how is it that it becomes a human

0:28:26
rights tool that is inclusive more than

0:28:28
exclusive?

0:28:30
Well, I mean, the underlying assumption,

0:28:34
I think, for a lot of people that argue

0:28:36
that way is that everyone should have an

0:28:38
equal amount or something like that. And

0:28:40
it's a it's sort of taking

0:28:43
egalitarianism to the extreme, which I I

0:28:46
don't think has any biblical basis

0:28:47
whatsoever.

Scarcity and Value of Bitcoin

0:28:49
when when you're buying Bitcoin, uh you

0:28:52
when you're trading exchanging your fiat

0:28:54
money for Bitcoin, you you get some

0:28:56
amount and because of its scarcity, um

0:29:00
the value is going to hold and that's

0:29:03
all it is. It's a it's a savings

0:29:04
technology. Um now, is a person that got

0:29:08
in, you know, in 2013

Fairness in Bitcoin Investment

0:29:12
going to have more Bitcoin than somebody

0:29:14
that gets in now? Absolutely. because

0:29:17
they understood it earlier, they

0:29:19
recognized it earlier and they held for

0:29:22
all of that time. Um, is that like the

0:29:26
the sort of objection that a lot of

0:29:29
people might have is okay, is that

0:29:31
really fair, right? Uh, in some cosmic

0:29:34
way or whatever. Uh, but that's true of

0:29:37
anything, right? like I I if I got

0:29:40
something mature if I had an investment

0:29:44
in some property uh you know a hundred

0:29:47
years ago and it's uh increased in value

0:29:51
quite a bit because uh the city that I

0:29:53
bought it in was you know wasn't very

0:29:56
popular back then but is popular now.

Distribution and Morality

0:30:00
Well, I mean do people have a right to

0:30:03
you know that same land at the same

0:30:05
price that I bought it a 100 years ago?

0:30:07
That's that doesn't really make sense.

0:30:10
Uh that the distribution of things is

0:30:14
not a moral issue. That's that's just

0:30:17
people having foresight or uh

0:30:20
understanding things better. It just

0:30:22
because somebody understood it earlier.

0:30:25
I mean like the fact that somebody

0:30:27
understood it earlier or acted earlier

0:30:30
like that's just life. like that's that

0:30:34
that's not you know unfairness or uh you

0:30:38
know lack lack of egalitarianism or

0:30:41
something like that. Um so I the the big

0:30:45
thing though is that I I don't think

0:30:48
most people really understand Bitcoin,

0:30:50
right? Uh and I I suspect that's true of

0:30:52
your audience. uh and until they do and

0:30:57
once you do and a lot of people go

0:31:00
through this, you kind of get into it uh

0:31:04
a lot lot more a as the price increases

0:31:08
and you realize, oh wow, this really is

0:31:11
something that is very valuable. Uh and

0:31:15
it becomes a bigger and bigger part of

0:31:17
your portfolio until it pretty much

0:31:19
overtakes everything else. um which has

0:31:21
happened to a lot of people in the

0:31:22
Bitcoin space and that's that's uh

0:31:25
that's a you know I I I don't know if

0:31:28
there's like a moral thing uh connected

0:31:31
to that but that's just reality that's

0:31:33
that's how assets behave when they're

0:31:36
scarce.

Bitcoin as Stewardship Tool

0:31:37
Well, you talk about Bitcoin being a

0:31:39
tool for stewardship, right? And and I

0:31:41
love how you talk about it in in your

0:31:43
books and how you talk about it online.

0:31:45
A lot of people who don't understand

0:31:47
Bitcoin or who are new to Bitcoin uh or

0:31:50
really and some people really interested

0:31:52
in Bitcoin view it as gambling, right?

0:31:55
And and more like a like a digital

0:31:57
casino that's legal. Um how do you

0:32:00
balance the view of stewardship versus

0:32:02
that like gambling view that you hear

0:32:05
people talk about?

Bitcoin and Gambling

0:32:07
Yeah. And there are certainly a lot of

0:32:08
people that do use it as a gambling tool

0:32:11
and and that's very difficult to prevent

0:32:14
with money, right?

0:32:17
Uh that that's something that people

0:32:19
have been doing with any every kind of

0:32:21
money uh since since I don't know money

0:32:26
started. I think I I mean there's you

0:32:28
know Roman soldiers used to play dice

0:32:30
for money, right? like that that was

0:32:32
like a thing and you kind of see it in

0:32:35
the gospels when you know they're doing

0:32:37
that even for Jesus's clothes. It's it

0:32:40
was uh it's um it's hard to prevent. Uh

0:32:45
I will say though that the vast majority

0:32:47
of the gambling aspect of Bitcoin um

0:32:51
comes through fiat money. the loans that

0:32:54
people are able to get in the fiat

0:32:56
economy um uh you know what what you

0:32:59
call leverage is almost entirely on the

0:33:02
fiat side. So if you want to bet uh you

0:33:06
know 10x on uh you with 10x leverage on

0:33:10
Bitcoin uh that's relatively easy to do

0:33:13
only because fiat money is not scarce

0:33:16
and loans can come out of nothing and

0:33:18
that's that's what a lot of these

0:33:19
platforms allow. Uh so you can go on uh

0:33:23
you know Binance or whatever and do 10x

0:33:26
leverage and do whatever and you know

0:33:28
bet and gamble or whatever. Um but

0:33:32
that's not Bitcoin's fault. That's just

0:33:35
uh you know how people are using it. It

0:33:37
it tends to be a little more volatile

0:33:39
than other things. So that that's what's

0:33:42
attractive about the gamblers is that

0:33:45
it's a market that's open 24/7 and you

0:33:49
know they they can do it because of the

0:33:51
fiat loans that are available. But

0:33:52
that's I mean that's not something you

0:33:55
can really prevent within the within any

0:33:58
kind of monetary system. Uh and yeah the

0:34:02
the people and it's not really Bitcoin's

0:34:06
fault. It's it's within the heart of

0:34:08
man. that that part is not really

0:34:11
preventable or it I I think it would

0:34:13
greatly reduce if the fiat money aspect

0:34:15
wasn't there just because you'd actually

0:34:18
have to have the Bitcoin to do the um

0:34:22
gambling part or you would need somebody

0:34:24
to lend you real Bitcoin which would

0:34:27
incur a much higher interest rate which

0:34:29
would uh discourage them to from doing

0:34:32
that. Uh but that's that's the reality

0:34:35
of it. Uh, and I think we need to

0:34:38
acknowledge that it's more on the fiat

0:34:40
side. Anyway,

Bitcoin and Faith

0:34:41
so you've dealt a lot with Bitcoin, not

0:34:43
just from a money standpoint, but from a

0:34:45
faith standpoint. Talk about how this

0:34:48
became so integral for you and for

0:34:51
others in deepening your faith.

Bitcoin and Christian Faith

0:34:55
Well, um the big thing I've learned

0:34:58
within Bitcoin uh about my faith is that

0:35:03
uh well, so I I talk about what I do as

0:35:08
um two things. It's either orange

0:35:11
pilling Christians, which means telling

0:35:13
Christians about Bitcoin, um and Christ

0:35:16
pilling Bitcoiners, right? uh telling

0:35:19
Bitcoiners about Christ and and that's

0:35:22
purposeful because uh telling people

0:35:25
about Bitcoin or Christ actually has a

0:35:28
lot of parallels and I I don't want to

0:35:30
sound heretical or anything but

0:35:32
oftentimes like uh you know I I the way

0:35:35
I used to talk about Bitcoin with people

0:35:37
was hey you got you you really need to

0:35:39
learn about this thing it's it's like

0:35:41
this you know absolut uh you know it has

0:35:44
absolute scarcity it's digital it's

0:35:46
scarce it's decentralized eyes and it

0:35:48
it's this new financial system. It's way

0:35:51
better than the fiat one, blah blah

0:35:52
blah. And their eyes would glaze over,

0:35:55
right? They they don't know anything

0:35:57
about the monetary system and you know,

0:36:00
uh there and I would talk about it and

0:36:02
they they just sort of politely nod but

0:36:05
not know what to do about it at all. Um

0:36:09
and it got to a point where my wife

0:36:11
would be like, "Can you just kind of

0:36:12
stop talking about Bitcoin when we have

0:36:14
friends over? like they're you're kind

0:36:15
of freaking them out or whatever. And I

0:36:18
realized that wasn't the right approach,

0:36:20
right? Um after a while though, uh they

0:36:23
I I changed my approach to just being

0:36:26
like, "Hey, you know, I I I'm a Bitcoin

0:36:29
expert. This is what I do." Um you know,

0:36:32
if you're interested, ask me questions,

0:36:34
but I'm not going to talk about it

0:36:36
otherwise, right? Like I I just make it

0:36:40
clear that this is what I'm into. If you

0:36:42
have questions then then talk to me

0:36:44
about it. Um and you know the people

0:36:48
that are interested do come and find me

0:36:50
and go well you know I'm I I want to get

0:36:53
in I I don't really understand it. Well

0:36:55
here here are a couple books go watch

0:36:57
this podcast or go go do this and you'll

0:37:00
you'll understand it better. Thank you

0:37:01
so much. I bought some I started buying

0:37:03
some at this date or whatever.

Sharing Faith in Bitcoin Community

0:37:06
Um, and I found that that's an approach

0:37:09
that works pretty well for Christ as

0:37:13
well, right? And this is something that

0:37:14
I I uh started doing when I became more

0:37:18
of a a a micro celebrity within the

0:37:21
Bitcoin space is just let people know

0:37:23
that I'm a Christian, right? I and I and

0:37:27
honestly that's

0:37:29
like that it it doesn't sound like a

0:37:32
hard step but I think for a lot of

0:37:34
people it kind of is because you know

0:37:36
they're maybe in a job and they feel

0:37:38
feel like um you know it might

0:37:40
jeopardize something or get them

0:37:42
cancelled or whatever. And that was I

0:37:44
think the hesitation I had coming from

0:37:47
like the startup world or the corporate

0:37:48
world where you know saying something

0:37:51
like that just feels a little off and it

0:37:54
feels like uh you know people might

0:37:56
start attacking you or whatever. But I

0:37:58
started doing that and I found uh almost

0:38:01
the exact same dynamic where if you talk

0:38:04
about Christ and hey you have to do this

0:38:06
or whatever a lot of people eyes glaze

0:38:09
over it. They don't want to argue about

0:38:11
it. they, you know, and they just sort

0:38:13
of politely should, you know, like

0:38:15
change the conver uh ch change the topic

0:38:18
or whatever. Um, but if you let people

0:38:20
know that you're a Christian and sort of

0:38:23
live out that way, then people start

0:38:25
seeking you out because you're the one

0:38:27
that raised their hand, right? Um, there

0:38:29
might be other people that are Christian

0:38:31
within the same social circle, but they

0:38:34
don't even know that that person is a

0:38:36
Christian, so they don't they don't know

0:38:38
that's a resource available to them. And

0:38:40
then you get you get people asking you,

0:38:43
"Hey, like um I'm starting to

0:38:47
understand what Christianity is about. I

0:38:49
I agree with it morally. I'm I'm just

0:38:52
having like some intellectual like I I'm

0:38:56
not sure it actually happened. That's

0:38:57
the only part that, you know, that that

0:39:00
that's uh that I'm struggling with." And

0:39:02
you know, I'll be like, "Okay, you know,

0:39:04
you should you should go read this book

0:39:06
or you know or or this book here. here's

0:39:09
a few resources or do you want to come

0:39:11
to Bible study with me and we could talk

0:39:13
about it or hey um you know Easter's

0:39:16
coming up why why don't you check out my

0:39:18
church right like there there's so many

0:39:21
more opportunities to

0:39:23
talk about Christ in those ways when

0:39:27
people are more receptive and obviously

0:39:30
they're more self- selecting and

0:39:32
honestly it's not that difficult I feel

0:39:34
like it it's so so little risk involved

0:39:38
It's you're you're not going to heathens

0:39:40
and you know like uh you know ha having

0:39:43
the risk of your head being chopped off

0:39:45
or anything like that. It's just saying

0:39:47
hey I'm a Christian that's it. Um even

0:39:50
that is very difficult for a lot of

0:39:53
Christians. I I find that to be a little

0:39:54
bit of a shame. Uh I was there. I I I

0:39:57
understand why. Uh but doing that is uh

0:40:02
I found is extremely effective in in

0:40:05
getting a lot of people uh to ask

0:40:08
questions or h just be a resource for

0:40:11
them. And um and for me I I I've seen a

0:40:15
lot of my Bitcoin friends go from

0:40:18
hardcore atheists to like fellow

0:40:21
believers. And that's uh that's been one

0:40:24
of the most um unexpected uh blessings

0:40:29
in my Bitcoin journey is is just seeing

0:40:33
so many of them come through Christ.

Bitcoin Community Bond

0:40:34
Part of it is you do have such a strong

0:40:36
community and that's what helps make

0:40:38
those conversations easier. Um

0:40:41
why is it so tight-knit?

0:40:44
Yeah, I think um we're we're all kind of

0:40:46
oddballs in the Bitcoin space, right?

0:40:48
like we we're all like uh we're we're

0:40:52
the ones sort of asking the questions

0:40:54
that no one really wants to ask. How

0:40:56
does money actually work, right? Like uh

0:40:58
what what what's the mechanism and you

0:41:01
know is what we're doing actually good

0:41:03
or bad or how how is it affecting like

0:41:06
what what where where does inflation

0:41:08
come from and going down the rabbit hole

0:41:11
and all those things. Um, so a lot of

0:41:14
Bitcoiners tend to be first principles

0:41:16
thinkers and uh and we talk about stuff

0:41:19
that are not Bitcoin related but also

0:41:21
from first principles. So for example,

0:41:23
I'm a carnivore, right? I I only eat

0:41:26
meat and animal products. Uh, which a

0:41:30
lot of people find very curious. It's

0:41:32
like what wait what that like don't you

0:41:34
need fiber and how do you get your

0:41:36
vitamin C and aren't you going to you

0:41:39
know get scurvy or something right? Um,

0:41:41
but you know, I I've done my research. I

0:41:44
I' I've actually reasoned things out

0:41:46
from first principles and that's the

0:41:47
conclusion I came to. A lot of other

0:41:49
people in the Bitcoin space have also

0:41:51
done the same thing and have come to the

0:41:53
same conclusion. Um, and we talk about

0:41:56
that stuff, right? Uh, and it's not just

0:42:00
uh, you know, Bitcoin and the moni and

0:42:02
monetary policy. We also talk about okay

0:42:05
forms of government, you know, uh we we

0:42:08
we talk about diet, we talk about

0:42:10
exercise, we talk about family formation

0:42:13
and dating and uh and homeschooling and

0:42:16
raising kids and all that stuff. All all

0:42:19
those things are common um topics of

0:42:23
conversation among Bitcoiners uh because

0:42:26
we are sort of thinking through things

0:42:28
from first principles and figuring out

0:42:30
whe whether it's good instead of sort of

0:42:33
taking the narrative that's given to us

0:42:35
uh that uh a lot of propagandists would

0:42:38
like for us to swallow and you know

0:42:41
bitcoiners are just sort of not like

0:42:43
that. So I think there's uh definitely

0:42:46
um a strong bond that comes from

0:42:50
uh you know not being conventional if

0:42:54
you will um which I I think should be

0:42:58
the case for Christians too right like

0:42:59
we're we're thinking things very

0:43:01
differently and uh unfortunately like a

0:43:06
lot of Christianity is cultural these

0:43:08
days and I think it's

Christianity and Community

0:43:11
um

0:43:12
uh for a a lot of people it's it's

0:43:14
what's respectable um and not what's

0:43:17
true. Um and that's that's what drives a

0:43:21
lot of the bonding in a community is you

0:43:25
you actually really believe it and if

0:43:28
you have somebody that believes it next

0:43:30
to you, you know, it's uh it's a closer

0:43:33
bond than somebody that's in it more for

0:43:36
social reasons or something like that,

0:43:38
which I I think tends to happen in a lot

0:43:41
of other communities.

Altcoins and Cryptocurrency

0:43:43
Yeah,

0:43:44
you touched on this a little bit

0:43:45
earlier, but altcoins and cryptocurrency

0:43:48
as a whole, right? I know you you're a

0:43:51
big fan of Bitcoin. Um, a lot of people

0:43:53
might listening, they might think, well,

0:43:56
why doesn't somebody just create

0:43:57
Bitcoin, too, or

0:43:59
jump into all these altcoins? Can you

0:44:01
kind of explain the

0:44:03
explain the difference and just a little

0:44:05
bit more for our audience?

Centralization of Altcoins

0:44:08
Yeah. Uh so all coins are almost uh they

0:44:12
they almost always have some sort of

0:44:14
creator found uh foundation or somebody

0:44:18
that controls things and that's

0:44:20
essentially the difference. So there's a

0:44:23
there's a lot of coins that have like

0:44:26
some sort of council or somebody that

0:44:28
leads the development and can change the

0:44:30
rules at any time. Um and that's what

0:44:34
makes it centralized. And if it's

0:44:36
centralized and the rules can change,

0:44:38
then it's not actually really credibly

0:44:41
scarce in the long term. And that's what

0:44:44
makes the difference uh for uh versus

0:44:47
something like Bitcoin which is

0:44:48
decentralized and has credible long-term

0:44:51
scarcity. You could create Bitcoin 2

0:44:53
tomorrow and it might have more features

0:44:56
or whatever, but it doesn't have the

0:44:59
credible scarcity that Bitcoin has

0:45:01
because if you created it, then you can

0:45:04
probably change it, right? Like you can

0:45:06
uh you can say, "Oh, this isn't really

0:45:08
Bitcoin 2 or this is Bitcoin 2 and we're

0:45:11
we're going to change it from 21 million

0:45:13
to 42 million." uh because we're going

0:45:16
to subsidize all all these people that

0:45:19
are going to develop or all these people

0:45:22
that are going to use it as merchants

0:45:24
and all all these other people that we

0:45:27
think deserve it or or something like

0:45:29
that. And that that happens to all of

0:45:32
these altcoins is that they're they um

0:45:35
end up subsidizing different things

0:45:37
within their community or whatever.

0:45:39
There was um there was a supposedly de

0:45:42
decentralized finance protocol called

0:45:44
Arbitum that uh where you know somebody

0:45:48
hacked something and they decided we're

0:45:50
going to revert a bunch of these things

0:45:52
and uh you know return the money to the

0:45:55
rifle owner or whatever. Um that's the

0:45:58
centralization that um sounds good in

0:46:02
theory, right? This is also what happens

0:46:04
with the dollar is that if uh if

0:46:07
something goes wrong then uh then

0:46:10
there's a central authority to reverse

0:46:11
all of it. But that same power can be

0:46:14
used to print more money right steal

0:46:16
from you. And that's uh it's it's a

0:46:19
double-edged sword. There's a you know

0:46:21
what you might consider good on one side

0:46:24
is also bad on the other. And all of the

0:46:26
altcoins have are centralized and don't

0:46:30
have um this property where you you know

0:46:34
what it's going to be in the future. Uh

0:46:37
whereas Bitcoin is decentralized and

0:46:40
yeah it's it's uh it it allows you to

0:46:43
actually own your money and there's it's

0:46:46
unconfiscable. no one can take it from

0:46:49
you uh without you know like I don't

0:46:53
like like going and actually stealing

0:46:56
your seed phrase if you have it stored

0:46:57
anywhere or something like that. So um

0:47:00
it's actually self- sovereign money uh

0:47:03
like holding your gold but you know

0:47:06
someone can actually come and physically

0:47:08
take your gold. It's harder to take

0:47:10
something digital because you can put it

0:47:11
behind passwords and uh distribute it

0:47:14
and things like that. If Satoshi's

0:47:16
wallet ever gets used, right, the

0:47:19
creator of Bitcoin,

Impact of Satoshi's Wallet

0:47:22
does that kind of make everything go

0:47:24
kaputs or what happens if that if that

0:47:27
event ever happened? I'm sure you guys

0:47:29
talk about that or have talked about

0:47:31
that a lot.

0:47:32
Yeah, I mean that's uh it's

0:47:36
what what happens if China dumps all US

0:47:40
treasuries on the market, right? Like

0:47:42
that's kind of the uh the similar a

0:47:46
similar kind of issue. You you don't

0:47:48
know what a private actor is going to do

0:47:50
and you don't know how the market is

0:47:52
going to react to what the private actor

0:47:54
does. Um and that it's um you know

0:47:59
especially when there's like one holder

0:48:01
that has a significant amount of it. But

0:48:03
that's that's true of any anything in a

0:48:06
market. If if one holder has a lot of it

0:48:10
and they dump it on the market,

0:48:12
obviously the Pike's going go down, at

0:48:14
least in the short term, but uh in the

0:48:18
long term, it might be, oh, okay, it's

0:48:19
actually getting distributed to the rest

0:48:21
of the community. So, we don't have to

0:48:23
worry about this anymore. There's more

0:48:25
certainty it might go back up again,

0:48:26
right? Like,

0:48:27
it's a it's a sort of thing where it's

0:48:29
very hard to predict how um

0:48:34
how the market reacts. you you have a uh

0:48:39
have an intuition at least in the short

0:48:40
term of what will happen but uh long

0:48:43
term

0:48:45
like it it's very difficult to tell and

0:48:47
I I I would not uh believe anybody that

0:48:51
said oh this is definitely what's going

0:48:53
to happen uh Bitcoin's going to die

0:48:54
because there's going to be a million

0:48:56
more uh bitcoins out there well maybe

0:48:59
but it's also possible that there there

0:49:02
are people that want that much and would

0:49:04
buy it at market price just so they can

0:49:07
own that much and they weren't

0:49:09
interested if they had to go and

0:49:11
accumulate it over a long period of

0:49:13
time. But if they can just go get a

0:49:15
million right away, then then that's

0:49:17
something that they would be interested

0:49:19
in. You you don't you don't know what

0:49:20
other market actors there are and how

0:49:23
markets uh sort of react to those kinds

0:49:27
of things. So I yeah I I I I don't think

0:49:30
anyone knows and I don't think it's

0:49:32
really possible to know until it happens

0:49:34
but generally I think it'll it'll be a

0:49:37
long over the long term it'll be

0:49:39
positive.

Getting Started with Bitcoin

0:49:40
Yeah. Well one thing people who are

0:49:42
listening to this might not have any

0:49:44
Bitcoin or have had interest before this

0:49:47
now they want to get into it. they've

0:49:49
got they'll look up how to buy Bitcoin

0:49:52
on Google or chat or whatever

0:49:54
and they're going to see things called

0:49:56
ledgers and other things. They're going

0:49:58
to see like Robin Hood and Binance like

0:50:01
what do you encourage people who are

0:50:03
interested what like what's the right

0:50:06
way to get involved?

Buying Bitcoin

0:50:09
Well, if you want to buy Bitcoin, it's

0:50:11
pretty straightforward. There's uh you

0:50:13
know, if you have Cash App, which is

0:50:15
very similar to Venmo on your phone,

0:50:17
then you can literally buy it. I think

0:50:19
you can also buy it on Venmo even. Um

0:50:21
though they they do more altcoins and

0:50:23
stuff. You can also buy on Swan or

0:50:25
River. Uh many other exchanges.

0:50:28
Depending on where you are in the world,

0:50:30
there's probably one that's uh very

0:50:31
local to you. Uh but I I I would say

0:50:35
learn about Bitcoin first and what it is

0:50:38
uh before you move on to any of those

0:50:40
other things because uh like you

0:50:43
suggested before there are a lot of

0:50:44
people that do use it for gambling and

0:50:46
instead of as a savings vehicle which is

0:50:49
what it actually is. Uh so learning

0:50:52
about it uh you know understanding the

0:50:54
history of money and what what makes

0:50:56
Bitcoin diff different will give you

0:50:59
that conviction. Um it's uh it's a lot

0:51:02
like Christianity in that uh it's easy

0:51:05
enough to go to church and do all the ex

0:51:10
uh uh external signs of being a

0:51:13
Christian but to really develop that uh

0:51:15
that conviction you have to have a

0:51:17
relationship with God. And that's that's

0:51:20
ultimately what uh what gives you that

0:51:23
uh conviction. Uh so learn more about

0:51:25
him, spend time with him, right? Um, and

0:51:27
that's what I would encourage your

0:51:30
listeners to do is actually go and

0:51:32
understand Bitcoin. Go read some books.

0:51:33
Go watch some podcasts. Uh, um, you

0:51:36
know, I I have a few books. Uh, if

0:51:38
you're a Christian, definitely, uh,

0:51:40
thank God for Bitcoin is one that we

0:51:42
wrote specifically to Christians so that

0:51:44
they could understand that stuff. Um,

0:51:47
but there's a lot of other great intros

0:51:50
to Bitcoin. The Bitcoin standard by

0:51:52
Safina Moose is a is a classic. uh and

0:51:55
he shows it from an economics

0:51:57
perspective and it's also a pretty

0:51:59
entertaining read about the nature of

0:52:01
money and what it is and why Bitcoin is

0:52:04
different. Um there's uh you know uh the

0:52:07
bullish case for Bitcoin by VJ Boyati

0:52:09
who's another friend of mine. Uh there's

0:52:11
inventing Bitcoin for a slightly more

0:52:13
technical folks. There's uh um you know

0:52:16
so many other books too. Uh, and I like

0:52:19
there's a lot of resources like you said

0:52:21
in 2011 there really wasn't any of this

0:52:24
stuff. Uh, which which is why like the

0:52:27
people that held from there is are

0:52:31
don't number very many, right? Because

0:52:34
if you didn't really understand it, you

0:52:38
probably sold at some point. And

0:52:40
uh and that's kind of what you want to

0:52:43
prevent is to really understand it so

0:52:47
you're not uh you're continually acting

0:52:50
out on that belief rather than sort of

0:52:53
abandoning it uh at the first sign of

0:52:56
panic which happens often in Bitcoin.

0:52:58
It's uh it's dropped more than 80%

0:53:01
uh from its high like six different

0:53:04
times. So you're going to get tested

0:53:06
because of the volatility. Um, and it's

0:53:10
better if you can hold through it. And

0:53:12
that means actually developing some

0:53:14
conviction around what it is.

Rapidfire Questions

0:53:17
That's so good. Well, Jimmy, I want to

0:53:19
finish with 10 rapidfire questions and

0:53:22
you just answer with the first thing

0:53:23
that comes to mind. No wrong answer.

0:53:25
Sure.

Servant Leadership

0:53:26
Who's the first person you think of when

0:53:29
I say servant leadership?

0:53:32
Jesus.

Describing Jimmy Song

0:53:34
All right. Five words that most describe

0:53:36
you.

0:53:41
Oh man. Uh, extroverted.

0:53:44
Uh, first principles thinker and

0:53:50
um, Christ follower.

Favorites

0:53:53
All right. Favorite book or author?

0:53:56
CS Lewis.

0:53:58
Favorite food?

0:54:01
Steak.

0:54:02
Favorite thing to do in your free time?

0:54:05
Read.

Surprising Fact

0:54:06
Surprising fact about you.

0:54:10
I I I don't know what would surprise

0:54:12
people. Uh I I

0:54:16
I guess I'm a carnivore. That's There

0:54:18
you go.

Teaching and Involvement

0:54:18
I was I was going to interject for the

0:54:21
surprising fact about you. One thing

0:54:22
that I found surprising uh is that you

0:54:25
actually teach people a lot of the

0:54:26
principles. Not just like

0:54:28
all your celebrityism and like your

0:54:31
persona and like all that you talk about

0:54:32
online, but you like do hands-on

0:54:34
teaching and help people go from zero to

0:54:37
serious understanding and getting

0:54:39
involved in this space. So, I found that

0:54:41
surprising when I first bumped into that

0:54:43
and I think it's cool.

Capitalist Endeavor

0:54:44
That that was that was also like a

0:54:47
capitalist endeavor on my part, right?

0:54:49
cuz I I I wasn't doing it for free and

0:54:51
it was uh mutually beneficial which is

0:54:54
which is the ideal thing in any uh any

0:54:58
economy is where you have a win-win

0:55:01
trade where some the everybody is better

0:55:05
off as a result of that interaction.

Favorite Travel Destinations

0:55:08
All right. Favorite place you've been?

0:55:14
Tokyo.

Future Travel Plans

0:55:16
Is there anywhere in the world you want

0:55:17
to go that you have not been to yet?

0:55:20
Oh, um,

0:55:24
Moscow.

Best Advice Received

0:55:26
All right. What's the best advice you've

0:55:28
ever received?

0:55:30
Believe in Christ.

Importance of Servant Leadership

0:55:32
I love that. All right. And finally,

0:55:34
this is a podcast on servant leadership.

0:55:36
Why should people care about becoming

0:55:38
better servant leaders?

0:55:42
It makes you a better person, I think.

0:55:44
Um, it's it's very easy to if you have

0:55:48
the personality for it, it's it's very

0:55:50
easy to be a leader that's egocentric or

0:55:55
thinks they know everything. Um, I think

0:55:58
servant leadership puts you in a mode of

0:56:03
seeing

0:56:06
more what the effect that you're having

0:56:09
in the community. And ultimately that's

0:56:12
that's what you have to uh that that's

0:56:15
what

0:56:16
purifies you in a way cuz it it uh it

0:56:20
puts you in a position outside yourself

0:56:22
and helps you understand what

0:56:25
um

0:56:27
what community you're in and how that's

0:56:30
improving as a result of your

0:56:33
um efforts.

Closing Remarks

0:56:35
Wow. Well, Jimmy, thank you for being

0:56:39
with us. I I know none of this is you

0:56:41
giving financial advice or anything like

0:56:42
that, but just sharing your story and

0:56:44
and giving a lot of wisdom from things

0:56:46
you've learned. So, thank you for being

0:56:48
open and uh we're going to put in the

0:56:50
show notes some links where people can

0:56:52
go follow you and and learn more if

0:56:54
they're interested.

0:56:56
Well, thank you for having me. It was a

0:56:58
pleasure.

Podcast Outro

0:56:59
Thank you for listening to this episode

0:57:00
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

0:57:03
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

0:57:05
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

0:57:07
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0:57:11
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0:57:13
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0:57:15
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0:57:17
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