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When you learn to live without

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expectations, everything becomes a gift.

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How do you do that?

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Oh,

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today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

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we welcome New York Times bestselling

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author Paul Young. Originally written as

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a Christmas gift for his children, The

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Shack has gone on to sell more than 25

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million copies and became a major motion

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picture starring Sam Worththington,

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Octavia Spencer, and Tim McGrath. Paul's

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journey is anything but conventional.

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Raised among a stone age tribe in the

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highlands of New Guinea, he later worked

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three jobs while writing The Shack on a

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commuter train. After 26 publishers

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rejected the book, he and two friends

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self-published it with just $300 in

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marketing and watched it become one of

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the most read books of the 21st century.

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The real story behind The Shack is the

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11-year unraveling that came before it.

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A story of failure, forgiveness, and the

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kind of grace that only shows up when

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you've stopped pretending. Join us as we

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talk about leading through hidden pain,

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the cost and freedom of forgiveness and

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his long- awaited sequel, Return to the

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Shack.

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Paul, welcome to the Servant Leadership

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Podcast.

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Absolutely honored to be with you. My

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whole life has led up to this moment and

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I don't want to be anywhere else. I

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mean, think about it. Our whole lives

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from moment of conception have now led

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up to this moment.

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It is crazy that I love that

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perspective. Uh that's one of the things

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that makes you unique. You see the world

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differently.

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Missionary kid.

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Yeah. Talk about people obviously know

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you from the shack, but talk about your

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growing up experience because you had a

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crazy experience growing up.

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Yeah. When you grow up, you think your

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experience is normal kind of. And uh I

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was born Canadian. At a year old um my

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I'm firstborn missionary kid, preachers

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kid. So at 8 months they packed

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everything up and we moved to the

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interior highlands of New Guinea uh at

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the time and Netherlands New Guinea.

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Then it became under Indonesian control

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different and now it's West Papua mostly

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is how it's known and um uh very

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primitive beautiful tribal people that

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had never seen a white person before.

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And I'm a year old and so my first

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language was the name of the tribe was

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Donnie. and uh first dreaming language.

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I grew up thinking that I was a person

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of color and and when I was sent away to

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boarding school, it was a it was not a

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good shock. It was I lost everything

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because um my dad was an abusive

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disciplinarian, but at the time I didn't

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know that he he had been somewhat

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destroyed by his father and his father

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before him. And I I was still part of

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that legacy. Um, and then some other

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really tragic thing, sexual abuse

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started.

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And I don't know yet, I don't even know

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if if in the context of the culture that

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it was a targeted thing um or that it

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was just part of the culture. But then I

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was sent to boarding school at six and

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inside a Christian missionary boarding

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school, the sexual abuse continued as a

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six-year-old. And uh but

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around 10 we went back to Canada. My dad

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became an itinerant preacher 13 schools

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before I graduated high school. Complete

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me uh mess. Porn addict by 12. Um hated

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myself.

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Perfectionist performer. Always

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responding to the world um in front of

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me changing. I didn't think I was smart

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or creative. I just thought I knew how

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to fool people. lying was a survival

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skill. And um dragged all of that into

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marriage to Kim and

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to go to the other end and see

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backwards. Kim and I have now been

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married almost 47 years and we are the

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best we've ever been. Um six kids. We

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now have 17 living grandchildren and

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we're not done. Um, but I dragged all

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that crap into my marriage and and uh 13

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years in when Matthew was born, the

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youngest of our kids, I Kim caught me in

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a three-month affair with one of her

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best friends, and it literally blew up

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the world. And I had to make a decision,

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either see if there was a way to heal or

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kill myself. And suicide had always been

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the last way to run away. Um, but this

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this was the crisis and uh I decided to

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give it one more shot to see if there

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was a way to change. Pulled the yellow

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pages off. Kim, you got to understand

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Kim is not a meek, mild, submitted

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woman. I mean, she was born in North

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Dakota. Mine not of all places. And u

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and five sisters and her are called the

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force. And you know, may the force be

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with you. So, part of what saved my life

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was the intensity of Kim's fury.

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And uh the only reason she allowed me to

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stay inside the marriage was because she

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believed I'd hit the bottom. And I did.

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When you hit the bottom, you don't point

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fingers at anybody anymore. You own what

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you've done. Um, I pulled the yellow

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pages off the shelf, looked under

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counselors, saw one that had in their

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box specializing in sexual abuse

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histories, and walked into total

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strangers and for the first time in my

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life uttered these words, "Can you help

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me?"

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And I, wouldn't you know it, ran into

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the perfect person for me, Scott. And uh

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later he became my friend which probably

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violates some rule somewhere but uh he

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didn't care and I was grateful. Um and

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uh slowly it took Kim and I 11 years to

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heal. 11 years

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before I knew for sure that she now

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trusted me and she had every reason to.

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The beginning of the 12th year was the

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year I turned 50. I uh I looked around

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and thought

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my

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my I was so amazed like I'm the

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healthiest person that I know or at

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least one of them

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and I had no addictions. I had no

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secrets. I I was the same person in

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every situation. I didn't know that was

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possible. Um joy had become a constant

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companion. I had learned how to stay

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present to the moment and not future

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trip all kinds of tragic fantasies or,

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you know,

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huge success or all that kind of crappy

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stuff that you want to imagine for

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yourself based on fear. And uh and my

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relationships were were healing. I'm

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still after all these years dealing with

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the consequences of the choices that I

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made because they ripple out. I am

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resolved and uh there's been

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reconciliation in many of my

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relationships but some of them still no

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um you can forgive someone without ever

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trusting them again but rec reconciling

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is for the sake of the one who did the

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harm and that's a rugged road. Um, so

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year I turned 50,

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I thought, you know, I think I'm finally

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healthy enough to to do this little

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thing that Kim's been asking me to do

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for about four years. And that's someday

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as a gift for our kids. Would you just

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write in one place how you think because

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you think outside the box? And she

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didn't tell me that she was thinking

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four to six pages. Um and uh and so I

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wrote a story for Christmas. It was the

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only Christmas present I had. We were we

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had lost everything on our journey to

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learn how to trust. The 11 years was

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about learning how to trust, you know,

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not manage, not control. Um which is

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from my history was something that I had

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no capacity to. And inside my religious

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upbringing,

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it it wasn't about trust, it was about

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performance. And uh and so the a lot of

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things came undone and started you know

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from the roots. Some people in their

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process of healing they need an art

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restoration expert. They need somebody

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who can slowly and carefully remove the

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pieces that that shouldn't be there that

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cover up the truth of a person's being.

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Me I needed a sledgehammer and a you

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know a battering ram. Um, I mean there

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were the still the kind of gentle

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unravelings, but man, uh, I was so stuck

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inside of performance perfectionism.

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And, uh, so I wrote a story for my kids.

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Uh, Christmas comes.

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Um, Kinko's has it for I can get eight

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copies for X, but across the street,

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Office Depot had a sale and I could get

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15 copies for the same price. I make 15

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copies on their photocopier.

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Gave my kids a Christmas present of a

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book that I wrote called The Shack, you

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know. And uh I never thought of myself

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as anyone who could ever be a published

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author. It just wasn't on my radar. Um I

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read good books growing up, the

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classics. And and I think that's where I

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at least learned to write in a

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bluecollar kind of way. And uh plus

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I'd always had this longing for beauty

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and longing for authenticity

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and longing for

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more more of for wholeness

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and uh and that always drove me. I I

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loved Jesus. I just didn't trust God the

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Father. And uh cuz I'd painted God with

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the face of my own dad. And uh so I had

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to become an atheist about that kind of

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God which is always a movement toward

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Jesus. I think uh halfway from relig

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religion I think and uh but I'm I'm done

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creating divisions in the world. I don't

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want to do that. Um I think love is the

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most powerful agent in the world that

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violence or evil only compounds

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the destruction that uh we know exists

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around us. And uh um I think that love,

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kindness, gentleness,

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uh confrontation in terms of care, um

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those things actually change the world.

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and that uh we're surrounded by

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institutional structures and systems

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that that rely on fear fundamentally in

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order to keep their systems alive. And I

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kind of challenge that. But I'm not

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after hurting anybody in the midst of

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those kinds of challenges. I don't feel

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like I'm I'm here as some kind of sage

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or prophet or any of those things. Um,

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I'm here as someone who has moved in the

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direction of authenticity and I want to

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live that way relating to the person who

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is in front of me which is you, Chris,

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in this moment. In this moment, you

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matter more to me than the entire cosmos

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because I think whether you do or not I

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and I and this is true about every

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person that I'm in front of. I think I'm

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in front of someone who is an eternal

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being

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who is indwelt by love. and the truth of

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their being is good. Period.

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Period. That's some of my friends.

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Period. And made in the image of a God

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who is good. Period. And uh and that's

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from where I live. And I and I get to

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watch

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unbelievably beautiful things occur in

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the hearts and lives of many of us who

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were really

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torn apart and uh and get to watch

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healing and wholeness happen from the

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place of affection and care and

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kindness.

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You you can't self-discipline yourself

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into wholeness where the where the ways

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of your being match the truth of your

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being. And I think a lot of us feel that

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that breakage in us where we can't get

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we can't get from

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seeing the good to actually living the

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good.

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And um so and I think there are are

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realizations on the road where we can

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begin to live that way where where the

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ways of our being the choices we make

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actually are expressions of the truth of

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our being. But most of us or many of us

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were were not given the truth of our

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being as good. We're given something

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else. Both in religious frames of

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reference and you know the trauma and

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tragedies that we experienced growing

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up. They've all pounded into us that

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were just useless

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uh pieces of [ __ ] And and frankly my

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theology did the same thing. I had to

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start from scratch at the beginning of

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those 11 years. I am so so grateful

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every moment of every day. And uh so

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that's the overview. Well, it's

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interesting. There's a lot of people

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listening to this that are probably in

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eerily similar situation to you where

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they've got their life together or so

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they think, but deep down they know

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their life is not put together and they

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know there's something wrong and they

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haven't hit maybe the rock bottom you

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hit. Um,

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and they're praying still at this point

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that they don't hit that rock bottom so

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that they can keep living maybe a double

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life, you know, or keep keep living two

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parts. How how do you talk to those

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people?

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First, I want to say that on the

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elevator going down, you can get off at

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any floor, you know, but you cannot do

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it in isolation. You will not. We're I

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think we're created as relational beings

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and that we need a somewhat even if it's

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one person you have to pay to start

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caring for you that uh that we're we're

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designed as community people. That's

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part of the truth of who we are. So, how

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do I how do I and what do I say to a

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person? And I talk to people all the

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time

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that are caught in the same web of

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having to put on a face for the audience

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that they're in front of where there's

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they're not living from authenticity.

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And I can talk in generalities about

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general things, but when I'm actually

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with a person, their story is what what

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really matters. And the response to

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their story is going to be unique. It's

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like raising kids. If you're going to

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have a good book on raising kids, you

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need one per child, you know, because

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because you can think you got it

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together after the first one. Introduce

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a second one and and you're dealing with

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an entirely different form. Um entirely

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different wonder. So,

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and this happened with my dad. Um my dad

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and I struggled in our relationship all

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the way up till when he turned 80 and he

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passed at 90 92 93 and um and it wasn't

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I mean I forgave him you know for all

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the damage

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but I didn't release him from my

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expectations.

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I didn't and I didn't realize that I had

00:16:02
him. But they were the bombs that I

00:16:04
planted in the fields I invited him onto

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and eventually he just blew one up. And

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when I realized that that's what I was

00:16:11
doing, I let him become a human being

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rather than my dad because he he didn't

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have a capacity to be a a a father like

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a dad. And suddenly his story mattered.

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Suddenly his responses mattered. And I I

00:16:30
learned a an absolutely significant

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thing. When you live without when you

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learn to live without expectations,

00:16:39
everything becomes a gift.

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And uh

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how do you do that?

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Oh, one incremental

00:16:47
fire at a time, you know, but but for

00:16:50
one thing, you have to realize that a

00:16:54
human being is more important than the

00:16:55
categories that we put them in. And that

00:16:58
includes right down to things like

00:17:00
father or dad because not everybody's a

00:17:03
dad.

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Everybody's a human being. So dad is a

00:17:08
compartment that is less than a human

00:17:11
being. It's a great honor and it's all

00:17:13
of those things. And if you're ever if

00:17:15
you're ever healthy to some degree and

00:17:17
you you get to be a dad or a mom or an

00:17:20
aunt or you know it's one of the

00:17:23
greatest

00:17:25
wonders and joys of existence. But but

00:17:29
in this journey,

00:17:31
you have to

00:17:34
recognize that the person in front of

00:17:36
you is greater than

00:17:38
the trap that they're caught in, the

00:17:41
false persona that they present, the

00:17:45
anger that they use for control, all of

00:17:48
those things. Inside of all of that,

00:17:51
there is a human being and there's

00:17:53
truth. There is truth about that human

00:17:55
being. And it's not the destruction that

00:17:57
not the survival mechanisms that they

00:18:00
use to perpetuate their self-existence,

00:18:04
self-control,

00:18:05
self promotion, self-p protection are

00:18:09
evidences of false personas.

00:18:12
And that that's not to give you power

00:18:14
over them. That's to recognize there is

00:18:17
a reason that those things exist. And

00:18:20
suddenly their story matters. And when

00:18:22
you when you draw a line beneath which

00:18:25
nothing's acceptable as a gift, you

00:18:27
won't recognize a gift that that is

00:18:29
right in front of you because it it you

00:18:31
know it's like the kid at Christmas who

00:18:33
wants the bike, right? That's all he

00:18:36
wants. That's the expectation. And he'll

00:18:38
rip through every present looking for

00:18:39
the bike and when it's not there, it was

00:18:41
a terrible Christmas. but they didn't

00:18:44
recognize any of the gifts and the

00:18:46
kindnesses and and uh the giftgiving joy

00:18:49
of anybody that offered them something.

00:18:52
So false personas and self uh uh self-p

00:18:58
protection, self-promotion, all of those

00:18:59
things are evidences that somebody's

00:19:02
caught in some kind of web that has done

00:19:05
a significant amount of damage to them.

00:19:08
The hard part of all this is to not get

00:19:10
sucked into uh creating an identity

00:19:13
around what you've built, what you've

00:19:16
created, your performance, your false

00:19:18
persona, any of that stuff. I mean, you

00:19:21
attach your identity to it. It's just a

00:19:23
matter of time. You know, when you go to

00:19:26
someone's funeral,

00:19:29
they e you'll you'll either hear lies

00:19:33
or you you'll hear relational impact.

00:19:37
And uh and I don't think lies should be

00:19:39
ever told at a funeral. Um but we do it.

00:19:43
Um and you'll you'll see the ones who've

00:19:46
been harmed who have to be there and and

00:19:49
put a persona on at the funeral. The

00:19:53
what what you'll hear in a funeral of

00:19:55
health is how someone loved someone.

00:19:59
You're not going to hear about well

00:20:01
let's see how much money they made or

00:20:04
let's see what kind of empire they built

00:20:06
you know as look what a great life

00:20:11
you'll either hear the good the bad and

00:20:12
the ugly right when we buried my dad it

00:20:14
was a very small group and uh and there

00:20:18
were like 13 of us and and we didn't lie

00:20:22
we told the good the bad and the ugly um

00:20:27
we allowed

00:20:28
It took a long time. My expectations

00:20:30
locked my dad into a prison and myself

00:20:32
into a prison. But we we told

00:20:37
the truth and we and as I aged,

00:20:41
I got rid of the prison. That's part of

00:20:43
the expectations were part of that

00:20:45
prison. And that allowed my dad even in

00:20:48
my own understanding to change. I have a

00:20:52
bunch of friends on death row. I'm

00:20:53
literally a bunch of friends on death

00:20:55
row uh in Tennessee.

00:20:58
And one of the things that they say is

00:21:00
it's a horrible thing to be only known

00:21:02
for the worst day of your life.

00:21:05
And they say, "You know what? In this in

00:21:08
this world, judgment is vengeance."

00:21:12
And and so you're not allowed to change.

00:21:14
He said, "We have a sign on our door on

00:21:17
our cages, animals." And so from the

00:21:20
outside,

00:21:23
you'll just put them into a category and

00:21:25
then assassinate the category. And and

00:21:27
one of my friends, Terry, he's got this

00:21:29
great line, proximity changes

00:21:32
everything. When you actually get to

00:21:34
know a human being and you allow

00:21:36
yourself to enter that story, you're

00:21:40
going to lead completely differently

00:21:43
than when they are just cogs in the

00:21:45
wheel and they're just something about

00:21:48
mechanics. And once you enter that

00:21:51
world, your business, no matter what it

00:21:54
produces that is helpful and good,

00:21:57
if it is harming those who are in it,

00:22:01
you have a human trafficking

00:22:02
organization. That's what you have.

00:22:04
And I don't care if it's religious or

00:22:06
business or marketing or whatever. If

00:22:09
the people that are in your and you

00:22:10
wonder why are people just leaving in

00:22:12
droves from the businesses that are out

00:22:15
there because they want to belong. They

00:22:18
want to belong to something that is more

00:22:19
than the ROI. And um and so the

00:22:23
relationships are what

00:22:26
matters. And and part of that is caring

00:22:30
for whether the people in your community

00:22:34
of business

00:22:36
are involved with something that fits

00:22:40
for them their way. Their way. And if it

00:22:44
doesn't, help them find what fits. You

00:22:48
know, just don't lock them into, well,

00:22:50
you're either helping our ROI or you're

00:22:53
an inhibitor to ROI. No, this is a human

00:22:57
being. And when when you have turned

00:23:00
them into

00:23:03
a cog for success or an inhibitor from

00:23:05
success,

00:23:07
then you've dehumanized them. And if

00:23:10
business becomes more significant

00:23:13
than the relationships of those who are

00:23:16
in it,

00:23:18
then

00:23:19
your funeral is going to be a very sad

00:23:21
event

00:23:23
rather than a celebration of life.

00:23:26
Wow.

00:23:27
I love I love your perspective. Um

00:23:31
there's just so much wisdom. You know,

00:23:33
one of the things that's interesting is

00:23:35
that some of this is just who you always

00:23:37
have been. learned more about yourself

00:23:39
over the years. When you handed over

00:23:42
those copies for Christmas of The Shack,

00:23:46
you had no idea what was to come after

00:23:49
that.

00:23:50
No idea.

00:23:51
What was your expectation

00:23:54
um from your kids standpoint of like how

00:23:56
they would receive it? And then for our

00:23:59
audience that doesn't know how much this

00:24:01
blew up, talk about the after.

00:24:04
Well, you know, you give your kids a

00:24:06
book and it's like, "Thanks, Dad. A

00:24:08
book."

00:24:11
Me, I'm writing it as uh as fiction that

00:24:16
encapsulates.

00:24:18
The two main character are Mac, who's

00:24:20
the dad, and Missy, who's the daughter

00:24:24
who's abducted. And both of their names

00:24:26
spell map. Because my sexual abuse

00:24:30
experience, right, that's Missy. you

00:24:33
know, where

00:24:35
in a sense the child in me was murdered

00:24:37
and it took me 50 years to even begin to

00:24:40
understand what it must have been like

00:24:41
to be a child. Mac Mackenzie Ellen

00:24:44
Phillips spells map. Melissa and

00:24:46
Phillips spells map. McKenzie is much

00:24:48
more my journey, you know, um

00:24:52
detoxifying my relationship with God.

00:24:54
the uh uh getting to a place of of

00:25:00
scrapping my way with uh the kindness of

00:25:03
beauty or you know the higher power love

00:25:07
um to get to a place where there was

00:25:09
enough wholeness that I lived what I

00:25:11
knew had to be true. Um so I you know I

00:25:14
give this book to my kids and literally

00:25:16
I had nothing else that year. I was

00:25:17
working three jobs. Um, most of them

00:25:20
were bluecollar and there were some that

00:25:22
interchanged during those those years,

00:25:24
but

00:25:26
we had we had lost pretty much

00:25:28
everything and uh and stumbled our way

00:25:31
into

00:25:34
a couple two and a half three years of

00:25:36
some of the greatest years of our lives

00:25:38
even though the transition sucked. So,

00:25:41
um, this book I just went back to work.

00:25:43
I gave it to my kids. I had extra

00:25:45
copies. Thank you, Office Depot. and uh

00:25:48
I gave them to my friends and I went

00:25:50
back to work. It was done. Those 15

00:25:52
copies did everything I ever wanted that

00:25:55
book to do. And my friends kept giving

00:25:57
it away and it started a chain reaction

00:25:59
that

00:26:01
I mean you would laugh about the kinds

00:26:04
of things that that were a part of this

00:26:07
whole craziness. Um, in a world where

00:26:12
four to six thousand copies of a book is

00:26:14
considered a bestseller in the first 13

00:26:17
months with no I mean we did sorry we

00:26:21
did almost no marketing because we

00:26:23
didn't have any money and 26 publishers

00:26:25
had already turned it down. Couple guys

00:26:28
created their own publishing house with

00:26:29
one title and uh because they wanted to

00:26:32
do some books for themselves too. And um

00:26:36
in the first 13 months we spent we less

00:26:39
than 300 bucks. We think it's for an

00:26:41
internet ad that never ran. And um and

00:26:44
we get this genius. We put the name of

00:26:47
the website. We created a website could

00:26:49
so people could buy the book. We put the

00:26:51
name of the website at the back of the

00:26:53
book.

00:26:55
I mean think about the genius, right?

00:26:57
And and so it turned into word of mouth.

00:27:00
13 months we shipped 1.1 million copies

00:27:04
of the shack and then it blew up. Hashet

00:27:07
the publishing company got involved. It

00:27:10
just became this thing in the world and

00:27:13
uh so somewhere like it's north of 25

00:27:16
million or something like that and um

00:27:21
it it is as surreal today. But here's

00:27:23
the impact.

00:27:25
All the things that mattered to me were

00:27:28
in place before I wrote.

00:27:31
Um, and and that includes identity and

00:27:34
worth and value and significance and

00:27:36
security, meaning, community, all those

00:27:40
things that matter were in place. And

00:27:42
I'm so grateful for that because I the

00:27:45
way I grew up, I had such a sucking

00:27:47
wound that would have taken any of those

00:27:49
things and I'd placed them right inside

00:27:51
of a book or inside of success and it

00:27:55
would have just ripped through my

00:27:56
relationships in in not good ways.

00:27:59
But because they were in place, I can

00:28:01
say that the only real gift that the

00:28:06
shaq gave to to me and my family and my

00:28:09
friends was that I get a constant

00:28:12
invitation to walk on the holy ground of

00:28:14
other people's stories

00:28:16
cuz people write me and beautiful

00:28:20
responses to how this little book has

00:28:24
ripped into some of the dark places in

00:28:26
their souls and some of the some of the

00:28:29
transformation formational kinds of

00:28:30
things. That's holy ground. Every human

00:28:33
being is holy ground. There's a burning

00:28:35
bush. Yeah. And uh but the beautiful

00:28:38
thing about that burning bush that comes

00:28:40
from Moses' experience in the wilderness

00:28:42
is that it burns away everything that is

00:28:45
not of love's kind. Leave leaving and

00:28:48
exposing everything that is everything

00:28:51
that keeps us from being fully human and

00:28:54
fully alive gets destroyed in the

00:28:56
process of of human growth and uh the

00:29:00
healing of all the things that that kept

00:29:03
us from being fully human and fully

00:29:05
alive. And uh so that's

00:29:10
you know

00:29:12
I'm grateful for it. My identity is not

00:29:14
in it. I don't need it. um don't need a

00:29:17
movie uh don't need all all those things

00:29:21
which are temporary in this world and

00:29:24
valued by this world not the eternal

00:29:26
things like relationship and love and

00:29:29
transformation and wholeness but the

00:29:32
things which are valued because the

00:29:34
world values them they are basically

00:29:38
what's called unrighteous wealth

00:29:40
and uh and unrighteous wealth is is to

00:29:45
be utilized for the sake of the other,

00:29:48
not for the sake of the self, not for

00:29:49
self-p protection, not for

00:29:51
self-promotion, not for identity, not

00:29:53
for worth. If you do that, you're just,

00:29:55
you know, covering your ass. And uh it's

00:29:58
all self-centered. But when it's used

00:30:00
for the sake of the other, it doesn't

00:30:03
change that the wealth is still

00:30:04
unrighteous,

00:30:06
but it allows us

00:30:09
to to uh not manipulate. What's a good

00:30:14
word? It allows us to utilize those

00:30:18
things which really have no true value

00:30:22
for the sake of the other. Other

00:30:25
centered, self-giving, co-suffering,

00:30:28
radically forgiving ways that can then

00:30:32
ripple into the world and change things

00:30:34
for the good. And I absolutely believe

00:30:37
that. I believe every person at the core

00:30:39
of their being is good, not evil. I

00:30:42
think evil is always a a tearing down or

00:30:45
an attempt to cover what has been good

00:30:48
from the beginning and uh and I see that

00:30:51
in every person that I meet.

00:30:53
Well, it's a fascinating story because

00:30:55
like you said, 25 million books sold,

00:30:58
right? And and you didn't need that for

00:31:00
sure because you'd already accomplished

00:31:02
what you wanted setting out before any

00:31:04
of that happened.

00:31:06
But then to see the blessing it turned

00:31:07
out to be is really cool. And then you

00:31:12
said you don't need a movie, but then

00:31:14
about hund00 million dollars later of a

00:31:17
movie that that does amazing at the box

00:31:20
office and then impacts lives for years

00:31:22
to come. How did the movie come about?

00:31:25
Well, the guys that created the little

00:31:28
publishing house from the very beginning

00:31:30
wanted to make a movie that and and that

00:31:33
was their their desire. And we published

00:31:36
the book because if basically if you can

00:31:40
get Hollywood

00:31:42
um if you can sell a 100,000 copies,

00:31:44
Hollywood will want to talk to you.

00:31:46
Somebody will, especially in this age

00:31:47
where content is becoming king, at least

00:31:50
for a while. And um and so that was the

00:31:53
goal. We were hoping to get through

00:31:54
10,000 copies in two years and then up

00:31:56
to a 100,000 in five years. And then and

00:31:59
you have to realize I knew nothing about

00:32:01
any of this stuff. Not about movies, not

00:32:04
about publishing, not about being a

00:32:05
writer, any of that stuff. And uh so I'm

00:32:08
like, okay. I mean, you live in the

00:32:10
moment's grace.

00:32:12
You don't you're not freaking out about

00:32:16
outcomes, you know? So So I'm like,

00:32:19
okay. And uh it came a point where

00:32:24
I had I had all the rights to the films

00:32:26
and all and and all that but they had

00:32:28
the desire and I thought and I told him

00:32:31
from the beginning I'll I'll give you

00:32:33
the movie but there was a timing to it

00:32:36
and I think there's always a timing to

00:32:38
our lives where we recognize and if I

00:32:40
had listened to Kim more

00:32:44
I'd have done so much better in my life

00:32:46
about a lot of things. I think women

00:32:49
generally speaking have great [ __ ]

00:32:52
detectors and um and red flags about

00:32:56
something that's not right and and but

00:32:59
there is a timing to relationships and

00:33:01
there is a timing to choices and uh

00:33:04
there came a time where it was the right

00:33:07
thing to do to give away the movie to

00:33:09
them and that's what I did and I gave

00:33:12
away all creative control all uh income

00:33:15
from it all uh uh rights to it and it

00:33:19
was by far the right choice within the

00:33:22
context of the timing that it was and

00:33:24
then I didn't expect to be involved and

00:33:26
I got invited to be involved many many

00:33:29
ways in many many times and it was

00:33:32
absolutely a gift and a joy for me but

00:33:35
again when you when you learn to live

00:33:38
without expectations everything becomes

00:33:40
a gift and uh

00:33:42
so you know it's a beautiful movie they

00:33:44
did a great job and I'm so grateful that

00:33:47
it exists this. But people would say to

00:33:49
me, what if they make a really crappy

00:33:51
movie? And I'm like, you know, if the

00:33:56
purposes of God are such that more will

00:33:58
be accomplished by a crappy movie in

00:34:00
people's lives,

00:34:02
I'm in. I'm in. because I don't I don't

00:34:05
need a great movie

00:34:08
to build my my true

00:34:13
wealth,

00:34:14
you know, the love and relationships,

00:34:17
the authenticity, being a trutht teller,

00:34:20
being kind, you know, the the things

00:34:23
that actually matter. But creativity is

00:34:26
incredibly cool. I love beauty. I love

00:34:28
art. I think it sneaks past our watchful

00:34:31
dragons. um they have a way to our to

00:34:34
our heart in a way that that blossoms

00:34:38
and we might try to shut it down but we

00:34:41
all get touched by something you know

00:34:43
child's smile a sunset looking over a

00:34:47
canyon um watching dance watching a good

00:34:52
film and uh reading a great book

00:34:57
listening to poetry I don't know there's

00:34:59
a bazillion things that that enter in

00:35:02
and begin to whisper to us that there's

00:35:04
more there's there's more real than what

00:35:08
we may be participating in. Well, you

00:35:11
talk about timing and almost this

00:35:13
perfect or providential timing of how

00:35:15
all that came to be. Uh I find it

00:35:18
interesting and one of the one of the

00:35:20
things I was most excited about to have

00:35:22
you on is the timing of later this year

00:35:26
uh return to the show.

00:35:28
Yes. what made you finally go back to

00:35:31
the shack and like just share some of

00:35:33
that journey?

00:35:34
Yeah. 20 years later, right? 18 from

00:35:37
when it when we've printed it. Um and

00:35:40
people would ask me, "Do you think

00:35:42
you'll ever write a sequel for The

00:35:43
Shack?" And I'd go, "No, I doubt it." I

00:35:46
mean, how do you write a sequel for The

00:35:47
Shack? If any one out there is familiar

00:35:50
with it, it is such a broad spectrum of

00:35:56
conversations about so many things that

00:35:58
are important and uh and it's like h and

00:36:03
I don't think you can write a sequel for

00:36:04
the shack, you know, it's it's not going

00:36:06
to it's it's not and you don't want it

00:36:09
to compare or compete. That's a that's a

00:36:11
scarcity mindset. And um when you when

00:36:14
you have a scarcity mindset about the

00:36:16
world, you're always going to end up in

00:36:18
violence and fear is going to be your

00:36:19
motivator. When you have an abundance,

00:36:21
like you know, creativity has no limits

00:36:24
and um and you don't need to compare and

00:36:27
compete at all. It's about

00:36:29
community and cooperation and those

00:36:31
kinds of things. And that's that's

00:36:34
pushed forward. The motivator is love.

00:36:36
And uh so I'm not I'm not afraid to have

00:36:40
written something that that uh is 20

00:36:44
years more mature cuz I'm 20 years more

00:36:46
mature. It started with this. I told you

00:36:50
I have a bunch of friends on death row

00:36:52
and without them this the sequel would

00:36:55
not exist. Um, that happened because a

00:36:59
friend of mine in in Nashville said,

00:37:01
"Hey, there's a guy on death row who's

00:37:03
been absolutely

00:37:05
impacted and transformed by the shack.

00:37:08
If I buy a copy, would you sign it and I

00:37:11
can take it in?" And I said, "No."

00:37:14
I said, "But you can buy the book and

00:37:17
I'll sign it, but I'll give it to him.

00:37:20
Get me in." And that's how my

00:37:22
relationship with Terry King began. And

00:37:24
then Ron Cawthorne was there and then it

00:37:27
be just it just blew from there. It was

00:37:29
never a religious thing or a ministry or

00:37:32
although

00:37:34
God bless the people that are involved

00:37:36
in those kinds of kindnesses

00:37:39
but it was just a relational building

00:37:42
kind of thing. Um, so

00:37:46
it's been nine years now that I've known

00:37:48
these these brothers and uh and they

00:37:51
really are they all come from different

00:37:54
walks. Um, most of them like Terry's

00:37:57
been in on death row for 43 years. Uh,

00:38:01
KB and Akquil for 33 years. Um, while

00:38:05
I've been there, there have been four

00:38:07
four men exonerated because of DNA

00:38:09
evidence. One of them had been on death

00:38:11
row for 41 years.

00:38:13
And uh and yet I've had I've had um just

00:38:18
in 25 I've had three of my friends

00:38:20
executed. Um one one the day before my

00:38:24
dad's birthday and uh and

00:38:30
you know

00:38:32
I didn't write a book to um try to build

00:38:36
an agenda against the death penalty

00:38:38
although I abhore it. Um, I don't think

00:38:41
justice is ever done by killing another

00:38:43
person's life. Most people don't know

00:38:45
that cause of death when someone's

00:38:46
executed is listed as homicide. And um,

00:38:50
and there's a 10% error rate that's

00:38:53
known. It may be way higher than that,

00:38:56
but I'm I'm not willing to live when it

00:39:00
comes to human beings with a 10% error

00:39:03
rate. And um and no, there is there are

00:39:08
so much more restorative and these guys

00:39:10
have worked hard, learned, and they're

00:39:12
not transforming their lives because

00:39:15
they hope for a better outcome. You

00:39:17
know, but like Terry said to me the

00:39:19
other day, he said, "All of the guys on

00:39:21
death row, we have a basis for

00:39:24
relationship because we all have the

00:39:25
same sentence,

00:39:27
you know, here we are, but our prison is

00:39:30
obvious." That's one of the other guys.

00:39:33
Our prison is obvious. So many people

00:39:35
out there outside these ball bars and

00:39:38
this concrete,

00:39:40
they don't know, they don't recognize

00:39:42
the prisons that they're in, some of

00:39:43
which we've already talked about. And uh

00:39:46
so my relationship has grown. They have

00:39:49
they have called me when I've been

00:39:51
through really hard times and helped me

00:39:54
walk through things. You know, they sent

00:39:56
me this absolutely beautiful card after

00:39:58
my dad had been buried and I got back

00:40:00
down to where we live. And uh

00:40:04
it's um it's it's I those guys are more

00:40:08
free than most people I know. And I've

00:40:11
taken other friends in there and these

00:40:13
guys have just blown them away by the

00:40:15
quality of persons they are, by the

00:40:18
freedom that they have inside of

00:40:20
concrete and steel. And uh

00:40:24
so I start thinking, wait a minute, in

00:40:27
the shack I've got um I've got a serial

00:40:30
killer.

00:40:31
What if he ended up on death row where

00:40:33
my friends are?

00:40:35
And um and that started

00:40:39
Mac has forgiven him, but it's one thing

00:40:43
to forgive an idea of a person. What if

00:40:46
what if you have to actually be in front

00:40:49
of the person who did such a horrendous

00:40:52
thing? And and killing of people is a

00:40:55
horrendous thing. Um and the guys on

00:40:58
death row, they don't they don't make

00:41:00
light of that at all. They embrace the

00:41:02
consequences of their choices. And

00:41:04
there's hell as part of that. And I'm

00:41:07
not talking eternal conscious torment,

00:41:08
religious hell, which I don't believe

00:41:11
in, but um I'm talking about the hell of

00:41:14
dealing with your own consequences of

00:41:16
the choices you've made. And um and so

00:41:22
the more I worked on it, the more it

00:41:24
began to form. And last uh last November

00:41:29
uh November 25, I started putting pen to

00:41:32
paper and it and it just it just showed

00:41:35
up. Um and I'm so grateful for it. It is

00:41:39
25 years more mature, but it is

00:41:42
different. But you don't have to have

00:41:43
read the shack in order to read return

00:41:46
to the shack. And the subtitle is uh a

00:41:49
journey into redemption. It's it turned

00:41:53
out beautiful. And that's not a

00:41:54
marketing statement. It's a it's a Paul

00:41:58
Young who's thrilled about giving birth

00:42:01
to another baby. That

00:42:04
is I know totally biased. I get it. But

00:42:07
I I love it. My friends who have read

00:42:09
it, pre-eread it, they love it. And uh

00:42:14
some of them say, you know, we kind of

00:42:16
like this better than The Shack. And I

00:42:17
go, well, it's because you read The

00:42:18
Shack. You know, you have a you have a

00:42:20
context to say that. And uh but you

00:42:24
know, it's an adventure. We'll see how

00:42:26
it spills out. I I write for my kids. I

00:42:29
write for my family. And I write for the

00:42:31
one. And sometimes I'm the one. But I

00:42:34
write for the one out there

00:42:37
who is who feels the burden of the

00:42:39
brokenness of the world as well as

00:42:41
perhaps their own life.

00:42:43
And uh and and I want to give a voice. I

00:42:47
want to say to that person,

00:42:50
I see you.

00:42:52
I see you in the midst of the billions

00:42:54
of people, you know. Um, I have no

00:42:58
expectations.

00:43:00
Everything apart this journey becomes a

00:43:02
gift. And, uh, I don't need it. I don't

00:43:06
need the book. I don't need the movie. I

00:43:08
don't need the shack. I don't I am

00:43:11
thrilled with the process and the

00:43:13
spilling out of what what it's done in

00:43:17
the world, but fundamentally it's

00:43:18
unrighteous wealth. But I'm thrilled

00:43:21
with the way that it has

00:43:24
has has become useful for the sake of

00:43:27
the healing of hearts and the healing of

00:43:30
relationships. Yeah. So, I'm excited

00:43:32
about it. Thank you. This is a this is a

00:43:34
galley copy, which means you can't buy

00:43:36
it.

00:43:37
I think people are going to be excited.

00:43:39
I'm and I'm I'm excited. It's It's not

00:43:41
that I'm like some stoic person back

00:43:44
here doing holy things. Um I'm thrilled

00:43:47
about it and uh I'm thrilled about

00:43:52
a lot of things. I I live a life

00:43:57
fundamentally of gratitude

00:43:59
because you look at my history and and

00:44:01
you look at the things that I've done

00:44:02
that is harmful.

00:44:06
I feel that suffering. I don't feel it

00:44:09
as woundedness anymore,

00:44:12
but I but the healthier I I am moving

00:44:16
into more health that I'm moving into,

00:44:18
the more sensitive I am about minor

00:44:21
deviations of harm and of evil. And I I

00:44:25
constantly have to watch words that I

00:44:27
use that I've never thought about that

00:44:29
actually hurt people. And I don't want

00:44:33
to participate in harm. I I get

00:44:36
triggered and stuff like that, but it's

00:44:37
not I recognize that when I do, I tend

00:44:41
to um participate in evil of some sort

00:44:44
and it's time to ask for forgiveness or

00:44:48
you know when somebody tries to harm me

00:44:50
or my family or you know I get I get

00:44:53
called a few names mostly by my own

00:44:55
people and uh not my family but my

00:44:58
religious history people. um but to

00:45:02
extend forgiveness

00:45:04
and uh

00:45:06
we live in a world that needs as much of

00:45:08
that as we can

00:45:10
that we can participate in. Well, this

00:45:13
is where and I told you outside of

00:45:15
recording this podcast, I'm definitely

00:45:17
going to want you back, especially when

00:45:19
this comes out because I think what a

00:45:22
lot of people will realize when they

00:45:24
actually start reading this is that

00:45:27
everyone can relate to feeling wronged

00:45:29
by another person in some deep harmful

00:45:32
ways.

00:45:32
Yeah.

00:45:33
But sometimes uh it's so easy to look at

00:45:36
that and not realize the harm you may

00:45:37
have caused other people around you as

00:45:39
well. And uh just wrestling with that

00:45:42
and wrestling with well if I know

00:45:44
forgiveness is right and I know uh

00:45:48
reconciliation is the right thing to try

00:45:50
to pursue. Um

00:45:53
but then I've got this wrong that's been

00:45:54
done that I can't let go of or that I

00:45:56
thought I already let go of. Like just

00:45:58
yeah

00:45:58
being able to talk through that in a lot

00:46:00
of detail. I'm I'm super excited to read

00:46:02
it and uh and to have you back on.

00:46:05
Oh can't wait. I can't wait. Chris, I'd

00:46:08
love to be back on just to just to talk

00:46:10
to you. You don't even have to record

00:46:11
it.

00:46:13
Well, here here's what I want to do. I

00:46:15
want to finish for those listening with

00:46:17
10 rapid fire questions.

00:46:19
Say the first thing that comes to mind,

00:46:21
no wrong answer.

00:46:23
Okay, fire away.

00:46:24
Who is the first person you think of

00:46:27
when I say servant leadership?

00:46:29
Oh, well, Jesus, of course. There's no

00:46:33
no question.

00:46:34
Five words that most describe you.

00:46:38
Five.

00:46:41
Most describe me now.

00:46:43
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:46:45
Creative,

00:46:47
kind,

00:46:49
gentle, trustworthy,

00:46:53
and good.

00:46:55
Those are good. All right. Favorite

00:46:57
author or book?

00:47:02
George McDonald. One of my favorite

00:47:04
authors. and uh um probably

00:47:10
unspoken sermons, creation and Christ.

00:47:14
And uh you you'll want to get the non

00:47:17
brogue Scottish uh Scottish one. Look

00:47:20
look for one that has been um edited

00:47:23
into something a little more English.

00:47:26
Yeah. All right. Favorite food?

00:47:30
often it's the one that is in front of

00:47:32
me, but probably vanilla ice cream.

00:47:36
That's good. Favorite thing to do in

00:47:38
your free time?

00:47:40
Play with my grandbabies.

00:47:41
Wow. And you've got a lot of them.

00:47:44
I do.

00:47:44
Uh what's what's a surprising fact about

00:47:46
you?

00:47:48
I grew up in Cannibal Valley.

00:47:50
Wow, that's crazy. All right. Where's

00:47:53
your favorite place you've ever been?

00:47:57
And you're talking geographic.

00:48:00
You could take it any way you want.

00:48:06
Holding a new baby.

00:48:08
Wow. I love that. Uh, where's a place

00:48:12
you want to go that you have not been to

00:48:14
yet?

00:48:16
Um, Maine, just because it's the only

00:48:20
state I haven't been in.

00:48:22
All right. Best advice you've ever

00:48:24
received.

00:48:30
Ask for help.

00:48:33
All right. And finally,

00:48:36
why should people care about becoming

00:48:38
better servant leaders?

00:48:43
Because at the end of your life, you

00:48:45
will know you've lived a good life.

00:48:49
Wow. That's so good. Well, Paul, thank

00:48:52
you for being on. Thank you for riding

00:48:54
the shack. I know it's been a blessing

00:48:56
to so many people. Uh, and I know you

00:48:58
didn't even need that, but thank you,

00:49:00
uh, because it is awesome.

00:49:01
You're welcome. I'm thrilled to

00:49:03
participate. Much love to you, Chris.

00:49:06
Thank you for listening to this episode

00:49:08
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

00:49:10
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

00:49:12
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00:49:14
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