Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast we welcome Scott Sonju, longtime sports executive, leadership coach, and senior advisor. Scott grew up in the sports world — his father was the founding president and general manager of the Dallas Mavericks — and he has built his own remarkable career across professional baseball, rugby, and international sports. Scott led the Frisco RoughRiders for thirteen years, where more than one hundred and twenty-five players developed before going on to play for the Texas Rangers. He helped train the Chinese national baseball team, launched the Dallas Jackals in Major League Rugby, and today teaches sports sponsorship at SMU while coaching CEOs and executives across the country. In this conversation, Scott and I talk about how blind spots show up at the highest levels of organizations and what servant leadership really looks like when you have to make the hard call.
Episode Transcript
Velvet Covered Brick
0:00
He always called it a velvet covered
0:01
brick. You know that you want to be uh
0:03
as tender as possible, you know, but as
0:05
firm as necessary.
Welcome Scott Sonju
0:12
Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,
0:14
we welcome Scott Sanju, longtime sports
0:16
executive, leadership coach, and senior
0:19
adviser.
Scott’s Sports Background
0:20
Scott grew up in the sports world. His
0:22
father was the founding president and
0:24
general manager of the Dallas Mavericks
0:26
and he has built his own remarkable
0:28
career across professional baseball,
0:30
rugby, and international sports.
Frisco Ruff Riders Leadership
0:33
Scott led the Frisco Ruff Riders for 13
0:35
years where more than 125 players
0:38
developed before going on to play for
0:39
the Texas Rangers.
International Sports Experience
0:42
He helped train the Chinese national
0:43
baseball team, launched the Dallas
0:45
Jackals and Major League Rugby, and
0:47
today teaches sports sponsorship at SMU
0:50
while coaching CEOs and executives
0:51
across the country. In this
Conversation with Scott
0:54
conversation, Scott and I talk about how
0:56
blind spots show up at the highest
0:58
levels of organizations and what servant
1:00
leadership really looks like when you
1:01
have to make the hard call.
Podcast Introduction
1:03
Well, Scott, thank you for joining the
1:05
servant leadership podcast.
1:06
A pleasure to be with you.
Backyard Interview Setting
1:08
This is so fun. We are sitting in your
1:10
beautiful backyard. Uh, and I am excited
1:12
to talk with you.
1:14
I delighted to be with you. I noticed a
1:15
plane is flying over right as we start
1:17
talking, so hope it’ll pick that up. We
1:18
didn’t think that through.
1:19
Didn’t think that part through, but
1:20
it’ll work, I’m sure.
Sports Family Background
1:21
Yeah, there’s not too many of those.
1:23
So, okay, we’re going to talk a lot
1:25
about your background, a lot about what
1:26
you’re doing today, but you’ve been in
1:29
the sports world basically since you
1:31
were a kid. Talk about what sports has
1:33
meant to you and your family and how you
1:35
even got into this world. Yeah. So, um,
1:38
as you referenced, I grew up kind of in
1:39
a sports family and then my father was
1:42
the founding president and general
1:43
manager of the Dallas Mavericks. So,
1:44
that was the family business growing up.
1:46
And around the dinner table, you learn a
1:47
lot being around that industry and
1:48
running around the stadium and kind of
1:50
being around that side of it. And for my
1:53
uh brother and sister and I, that was
1:54
kind of normative. We just thought that
1:55
was uh, you know, what what maybe a
1:58
typical family is. And then as you get a
1:59
little bit older with your friends, you
2:00
find out, oh, it’s kind of a unique, you
2:02
know, unique upbringing that we had.
Unique Upbringing
2:03
Very unique. And and we were very
2:05
blessed uh for that. But it was kind of
2:06
fun growing up around seeing the
2:08
business side, not just the competitive
2:10
side of sports. And then coming out of
2:12
undergrad at Texas A&M, I went to go
2:14
work for the Dallas Mavericks uh for a
2:16
couple years. And so it was kind of fun
2:18
being able to see behind the curtain
2:19
firsthand and being uh there. And I will
2:21
say this, when you go to work for uh for
2:24
the team that your father was the the
2:25
founding, you know, CEO and is the
2:28
current CEO, no one there really likes
2:29
you that much. you know that they liked
2:31
you when you were in junior high in high
2:32
school running around the stadium and
2:33
you were a nice polite kid but now it’s
2:35
like okay there’s some nepatism why is
2:36
this kid here and I made it very clear
2:39
my intent was not to stay real long and
2:40
I was going to outwork everybody and
2:42
really made sure to earn their respect
2:44
and only stayed for about two years but
2:46
ended up becoming one of the top
2:47
salesperson uh there in a entry- level
2:49
position
Short Tenure at Mavericks
2:50
and it was really a wonderful experience
2:52
why did you not want to work there long
2:53
term
2:54
yeah well um I think that uh at that
2:56
time in my life I don’t know I had a
2:58
great vision for what how I want to
2:59
deploy away my my um my skills and my
3:03
interests in those things plus limited
3:05
skills at that point and want to get
3:06
more skilled. Uh but I had a real heart
3:08
for a place in upstate New York called
3:10
Camp of the Woods which was a 501c3
3:12
nonprofit. It was a Christian family
3:14
camp, like a family resort. And it was a
3:17
place that my parents actually met on
3:18
the summer staff in the 1960s. And so
3:20
we’d been going there for uh the summers
3:22
for many, many years. And I saw that as
3:24
a place that I love to work. I love the
3:26
outdoors and it’s in the mountains. And
3:28
I saw it as an opportunity as a young
3:29
person. I was 24 when I got hired there
3:31
to get way more responsibility than I
3:34
would in the kind of real world if that
3:36
makes sense. And so as a 24 year old,
3:37
all a sudden I was responsible for 270
3:40
uh summer staff, college students, high
3:42
school students, internationals, and uh
3:44
some adults about 35 full-time
3:46
year-round staff. And so it was
3:47
tremendous amount of leadership
3:49
opportunity at a really young age uh
3:51
there. And really love that experience.
Leadership at Camp of the Woods
3:53
Wow. Okay. So think about the difference
3:55
between what you saw in leadership at
3:57
the Mavs then what you experienced in
3:59
leadership at that camp early on. How
4:02
did that shape how you view leadership
4:04
and what were some of the good and bad
4:05
that you saw from from both areas? you
4:07
know, any place that you go to work, you
4:09
know, that you’re looking forward to
4:11
being joining a certain company, an
4:12
entity, a ministry. Uh sometimes when
4:14
you see behind the curtains, you get uh
4:15
you can get a little disillusioned and
4:17
uh in the in the former case with the
4:20
Mavericks, it was really a wonderful
4:21
experience seeing all types of folks
4:23
there and just uh my father is a great
4:25
example of of a servant leader and it
4:27
was just fun to um uh to be there as he
4:30
was running it. At the same time,
4:31
there’s a pressure on you a little bit
4:32
when it’s a family uh thing. And so I
4:34
try to kind of you stay below the uh the
4:36
surface there and and just seeing the
4:38
the different department heads and
4:40
different folks how they are empowered
4:40
and the ways they make decisions. You
4:42
always learn from folks who are leaders
4:43
above you. Sometimes you’re learning
4:45
things to emulate. Sometimes you’re
4:46
learning things you might want to do a
4:47
little differently. Sometimes you’re
4:48
learning things that you’re not going to
4:50
do, you know. So it’s still valuable
4:52
though. It’s still valuable lessons. And
4:53
I had a lot of great leaders though uh
4:55
around me that I was able to learn from.
Leadership Lessons
4:57
and then going to uh full-time there at
4:59
camp of the woods. It was a wonderful
5:00
experience as well and one learning from
5:02
people who were there who’ve been doing
5:03
those things at the same time getting a
5:06
bigger platform and opportunity to
5:07
really start exercising a lot of my
5:08
leadership. I look back and I think um
5:11
you know I know I I learned a lot and I
5:14
think did well in many ways but I also
5:15
look back at some uh uh young arrogance
5:17
I think I had. I think I thought that I
5:19
was probably, you know, the uh maybe I
5:22
was the brightest one in the room uh
5:24
type thing and uh that was is really um
5:27
not the right scenario, not not the
5:28
right mindset, I think. Uh not that it
5:30
was that way all the time, but uh the
5:32
flip side, there’s also that youthful uh
5:34
enthusiasm and not necessarily uh seeing
5:37
how daunting certain challenges can be.
5:38
So, you just go for it in a lot of ways.
5:40
And I think that’s very valuable as
5:41
well. Uh and so in my life though being
5:45
around I always look at leaders see what
5:46
I can learn and see what I can learn
5:48
about leadership not just from the
5:49
people who are leading me or guiding me
5:51
mentoring but also the people also
5:53
through books and different things you
5:54
want to read and learn uh because I
5:56
think leadership some people more
5:57
naturally have more charisma some people
6:00
naturally have more what we consider
6:02
they look like leaders uh sure but it is
6:05
a skill people can get better no matter
6:07
what your baseline is you can be a more
6:10
effective leader some comes to you more
6:11
naturally some it
Leadership Development
6:12
But anyone can improve and enhance and
6:14
it’s been a lifelong quest of uh of
6:16
leadership development. It’s something
6:18
I’m very passionate about.
Importance of Rest
6:19
Yeah. Something I’m curious about and
6:21
and it relates to the family camp
6:22
experience. Uh I view that or when you
6:25
talk about it, I think of it as like
6:27
rest and recuperation. Um is that why
6:30
people end up at a family camp? And if
6:32
so, uh how has that been formative for
6:36
you like in terms of how you rest?
6:38
because and we’ll get into it, but
6:40
you’ve run hard in your career running
6:42
some pretty big things. Um, how have you
6:46
thought about rest because of that
6:47
experience? Yeah, I think rest and uh uh
6:51
restoration is very very important for
6:53
for anyone especially for for leaders
6:55
and at camp of the woods you had all
6:58
these guests coming each uh week of of
7:00
the summer where it was such an
7:02
important respit for them and a chance
7:04
for them to reconnect with family
7:05
members to heal to learn by great chapel
7:08
speakers and teachers and music programs
7:10
and just it was very holistic how it was
7:12
approached and just a wonderful thing
7:14
for rest and recreation. I think those
7:16
are high callings important things Jesus
7:18
uh uh modeled uh for us, God modeled for
7:20
us in the in creation itself on the
7:22
importance of rest. And it’s important
7:24
to not just go go all the time because
7:26
eventually you’re going to burn out. And
7:28
there’s a difference between I remember
7:29
a pastor friend of mine made this
7:30
comment difference between burnout and
7:32
worn out. You want to be you worn out uh
7:35
there because you’re working in the
7:36
power of God working through you and
7:38
you’re giving a lot of energy, but
7:39
you’re being calculated. You’re taking
7:41
proper rest, but you’re worn out. Burned
7:43
out is not something you want to end up
7:44
at. And burned out happens too when you
7:46
don’t have rest and recreation,
7:48
right?
Return to Sports
7:48
And don’t have balance,
7:49
right? Okay. So, talk about after the
7:52
camp, you got into some really fun stuff
7:54
that happened to be back in the sports
7:55
world later. Why jump back to the sports
7:58
world?
7:58
Yeah. So, after leaving Camp of the
8:00
Woods, I went to get my NBA out of
8:01
Northwestern and had those two years
8:03
there to try to figure out what it is I
8:05
want to do. And one thing I saw when I
8:07
was there was some of the most
8:08
fascinating people I met uh some fellow
8:10
students some of them international some
8:12
of them from the US who were passionate
8:14
about their faith but passionate about
8:16
the marketplace and really wanted to uh
8:18
integrate their faith with the
8:19
marketplace. they feel a calling to uh
8:21
to be great business leaders.
Minor League Baseball
8:23
And I thought that was really
8:24
interesting uh to see because I’d been
8:26
kind of in a different uh cloistered
8:28
environment for for a while. And so I
8:30
really felt okay, I really want to go
8:31
into the marketplace now. And as I
8:32
looking at the things I like, I love
8:34
small business. I love entrepreneurship.
8:35
I like cleancut wholesome family
8:37
entertainment. And that all kind of
8:38
coaleses into minor league baseball. And
8:40
so kind of going through the network of
8:42
different relationships, I connected
8:44
with a guy named John Spolstra who um
8:46
was an old family uh friend. And John
8:48
was the president at that time of
8:49
Mandandalay Entertainment on their
8:50
sports side. They had multiple minor
8:52
league baseball teams. And uh so I sent
8:54
him a a letter sent him actually a
8:55
letter with a with a jock strap in it.
8:57
Uh which got to differentiate yourself,
8:59
right? Get noticed. And that was a kind
9:01
of an inside joke cuz he had a book
9:03
where he references this uh uh promotion
9:06
they did where they sent out thousands
9:07
of jock straps to season ticket holders
9:09
about renewing. It was very clever how
9:11
they did it. So I did that and then he
9:13
he called me and it was really fun to
9:15
connect and thankful for the opportunity
9:17
I got to come to the Dallas area and
9:18
I’ve been out of state for about seven
9:20
years and so it was fun to come back to
9:22
uh close to where I grew up and be part
9:23
of that first year when we launched the
9:25
Frisco Ruff Riders AA team for the Texas
9:27
Rangers
Ruff Riders Success
9:28
and correct me if I’m wrong but that
9:30
team uh not only had on the field
9:33
success but off the field it became like
9:36
a fan favorite in the area more so than
9:39
any other DA team. Is that true? Yeah,
9:41
we were very blessed. Yeah, we had a
9:42
wonderful staff and it was, you know, it
9:44
was mom and apple pie. It was cleancut,
9:46
affordable family entertainment. It’s
9:47
everything that’s right with sports.
9:49
Young guys chasing a dream, players who
9:50
still think it’s cool to sign
9:51
autographs, who are very accessible. And
9:53
we said, okay, pound-for-pound, we want
9:55
to be more involved in the community
9:56
than any other sports team. And we
9:58
wanted to really control the things we
9:59
can control. We can’t control the team
10:01
plays. We can’t control who the team is.
10:03
You know, it’s the Texas Rangers who
10:04
decide what personnel we have on the
10:06
field, but we can control the
10:08
environment, the atmosphere, the
10:10
cleanliness of the facility, the food
10:12
and beverage, the between innings, you
10:13
know, skits and stunts and all the
10:15
shenanigans, the music, the the full fan
10:17
experience from when the gates open
10:19
until the gates close. And so, we tried
10:21
to do all those things correctly. So,
10:22
whe whether we win or lose, people have
10:24
a great experience. And that’s the nice
10:25
thing about minor league baseball. If
10:27
you were looking at people’s expressions
10:28
when they left our ballpark, you would
10:30
think we won every game. They had a
10:32
great experience. In fact, if you asked
10:33
a lot of them what the score was or who
10:34
won, I bet you a fair amount couldn’t
10:35
even tell you. But they had a great
10:37
time. Their whole all ages. It’s hard to
10:39
find something, Chris, that a
10:40
four-year-old, a 14year-old, and a 40,
10:42
50, 60, 70y old can all enjoy. And they
10:45
can do that with minor league baseball,
10:46
and especially the Rough Fighters the
10:47
way we ran things. Uh, and it was also a
10:49
fun challenge because we were kind of
10:51
David in a Goliath market. Most minor
10:52
league baseball teams are in secondary
10:54
or tertiary markets where we’re in the
10:56
suburbs of Dallas Fort Worth, you know,
10:58
the fourth or fifth largest market in
10:59
the country. And so it was really fun to
11:01
carve out our success and uh but it
11:04
really made a huge difference. We had
11:05
great systems in place, great people to
11:07
execute those systems and we really had
11:09
a special relationship with the
11:10
community.
Launching the Team
11:11
Yeah. What was it like when cuz you were
11:14
early on helping start that initiative.
11:17
I mean what was it like in terms of the
11:20
dreams and what were some pitfalls that
11:21
you bumped into along the way where you
11:23
were just like boy we did not expect
11:24
this coming in?
11:25
Yeah. So the um when you’re starting or
11:29
part of the launch of any uh great
11:30
venture, you know, there’s a lot of
11:32
blood, sweat, and tears that goes into
11:33
that and a lot of that took place before
11:34
I I even came on because the things
11:36
really the the heavy lifting of getting
11:38
the team that was going to happen
11:39
happened before I got there and then I
11:41
came in during that first year uh with
11:43
that and it was just fun to see uh even
11:45
from there all these things that still
11:47
needed to come to fruition and all this
11:48
work. you plan and you execute and then
11:50
you got to audit and see how things are
11:52
going and you learn and you iterate uh
11:54
there and it’s easy for the folks who’ve
11:56
been there for a long time to get a
11:57
little burned out too because there’s
11:58
been so much but also it’s a very
11:59
energizing for for people uh when uh
12:02
when you see things now starting to
12:03
really come alive and you have to learn
12:05
how to adapt things that you were
12:06
planning you got a certain vision in
12:07
mind how this was going to play out and
12:10
it might be that things happen where
12:11
it’s not going to be quite that way so
12:12
you have to improvise and adapt and and
12:14
keep going and uh not not slow down and
12:17
so I think that uh that team in
12:18
particular really uh launched well and
12:21
then maintained that momentum and and
12:24
was always very good at each year adding
12:26
new things or changing up things a
12:27
little bit. You always want to be fresh.
12:29
Always say you have to have a certain
12:30
level of consistency when people come
12:31
back and they they know this brand and
12:33
they want to be a part of it but also
12:34
you need to add new things uh layer on
12:36
top of that to always make it fun and
12:38
exciting and fresh.
Business Model and Creativity
12:39
Talk about the the business model
12:41
because the Rangers are involved in it
12:43
but they’re also not involved in it,
12:45
right? You you kind of have two pieces.
12:47
How much of the show did they dictate
12:49
versus or was it just like players and
12:51
that’s it? And then how much did you
12:52
have to think through your own business
12:54
model and creativity without them?
12:56
Yeah. So we had 100% control of the
12:58
business model of the brand, the sales,
13:00
the marketing, the food service. We
13:02
controlled the lease at the the venue
13:04
and all the the community outreach we
13:05
did. And then what we did is we provided
13:07
the infrastructure, the backdrop for the
13:09
player development side. So the uh Texas
13:11
Rangers would provide the coaching staff
13:13
and all the players. And then we
13:16
provided a great facility and just all
13:18
the support to make a great place for
13:20
them to to develop. And then we’d have
13:21
lineup housing for them and you these
13:23
different things for the players. And so
13:24
it’s interesting business model because
13:25
the players are actually contracted to
13:27
your major league partner. They’re not
13:28
employees of the Rangers, excuse me, of
13:30
the Ruff Riders. They are employees of
13:31
the Rangers. Uh but once the players
13:33
worn our uniform, we have the use of
13:35
their likeness in that uniform, you
13:36
know, for for life. And so it’s great
13:38
for marketing purposes. And we really
13:39
wanted to help build into these players
13:41
while they’re with us. we can’t control
13:42
how long they’re with us, but it was fun
13:43
because DA baseball, that’s really where
13:45
the stars are made. And we’re not far
13:46
from Arlington where the where the
13:48
Rangers are are, uh, home field is. And
13:51
so, uh, we had all the great players. In
13:53
fact, my years there, 13 years there, I
13:54
think we had 125 players or so come
13:56
through Frisco who went on to play for
13:58
the Texas Rangers for at least a certain
14:00
portion of time, uh, there. Some for
14:02
career, some for, you know, limited
14:03
time. And so, it’s just really fun in
14:05
the development side to see that bench
14:06
strength and players get called up. And
14:08
then the, you know, 2010 and 11 World
14:10
Series teams of the Rangers, you know,
14:11
more than half those rosters came
14:13
through Frisco. And so that was really
14:14
fun for us to see.
Player Development
14:15
That’s a lot. That feels like more maybe
14:18
being called up than others. Is that
14:19
true or is that pretty common where it’s
14:21
that many over the course of a decade
14:22
getting called up into the majors from
14:24
other teams,
14:25
you know, to be candid, I don’t I don’t
14:27
even know the answer to that. You know,
14:28
I so focused just on the stuff that that
14:30
we did. Uh I do think that’s on the high
14:31
side. And I think part of that is
14:33
proximity that they want to keep an eye
14:34
on their stars. you want to keep them
14:35
where you know their GM, their scouts,
14:38
they could come in person and and see
14:39
regularly because we’re so close. We
14:40
also got the choice rehab assignments uh
14:42
because you could send the player could
14:43
still stay at their house at night and
14:45
see their team doctors but then you know
14:46
rehab in Fris you know 45 minutes away
14:49
from Arlington and so that really worked
14:51
out uh well for for the Rangers.
Stewarding the Team
14:53
Wow. That that would have been just such
14:55
a fun experience. Uh in thinking through
14:57
it, you’re kind of stewarding your team
15:00
there. uh you’re stewarding the fan
15:02
experience, but also you’ve got all
15:03
these players that are under your care
15:06
temporarily or partially and they’ve all
15:10
got hopes and dreams. How did you think
15:12
about leading well with such different
15:15
people in the organization? Uh and what
15:18
did you learn about leadership while you
15:20
were running that?
Leadership with Players
15:22
Sure. So, you know, with the players, it
15:24
was fun. Um, for some of these players,
15:26
uh, they’ve been chasing their dream,
15:27
and this is going to be the end of their
15:28
dream is is Mor League Baseball, which
15:30
is a very high level success, but it’s
15:32
obviously not, you know, the the big
15:33
leagues. Uh, and one of the things we
15:35
would do is we had a game program. We
15:37
gave out every game that had a different
15:38
cover, and we’d rotate different players
15:40
who might be in that cover or a mascot,
15:42
those types of things. But when it was a
15:44
player on that cover, we would uh take a
15:46
stack of those and put them in that
15:47
player’s locker uh there. So when they
15:49
came to the game that day, they had a
15:51
big stack with a little note from us,
15:52
you know, congratulating them because we
15:54
wanted them be able to send them to
15:54
friends and family, those types of
15:56
things. If a player got up to the Texas
15:58
Rangers, uh their first game there, we
16:00
worked it out with the clubhouse
16:01
attendant, the Rangers. We’d have a
16:02
gift, you know, there and something in
16:04
their uh in their locker uh w
16:06
congratulating them their first day
16:08
making it to the show. You know, those
16:09
are little touches you do uh to really
16:11
build into folks uh there. We also did a
16:13
lot of orientation where players would
16:14
start uh with us of how to make a great
16:16
experience here and we gave them lots of
16:18
opportunities also to uh be involved in
16:20
the community and to serve and and to
16:21
make little extra money doing things. We
16:23
always had players signing autographs
16:24
before every game uh there uh at the
16:26
main entrance and so those are fun
16:28
little touches you do. And with uh my
16:30
focus overwhelmingly was on our
16:32
full-time staff. We had about 55
16:34
full-time employees, about 16 interns,
16:36
maybe 300 part-time, you know, game day
16:38
staff over the course of the season. And
16:40
so since we weren’t uh uh the ones
16:43
responsible for the actual development
16:45
of the players, it’s the Rangers taking
16:46
care of that. We really were focusing on
16:48
the development of our employees, of the
16:50
staff, all of our sales folks and uh all
16:52
the folks running our stadium
16:54
operations, team operations, all those
16:56
aspects. And so what was fun on that is
16:58
all the little things we would do to
16:59
build a great culture and that really
17:01
helped them kind of like players. Many
17:02
of them wanted to get to the NBA or MLB
17:06
or NFL or Major League Soccer, whatever
17:08
it is. And so we tried to really help
17:10
them reach those goals and make this a
17:12
great launching place to really equip
17:14
them, build into them, and then help
17:15
them get that next opportunity. I think
17:17
we placed more people into significant
17:18
jobs in the next level of of
17:21
professional sports than probably any
17:22
minor league team in the country. We did
17:24
that for many, many years. It was very
17:26
rewarding to see that. And often times
17:27
it’ be someone who 6 months later, a
17:29
year later after they had left us to uh
17:32
another position at the professional
17:34
leagues, I’d get a note, an email or a
17:36
letter to saying, “Hey, looking back at
17:37
someone, I didn’t realize how special
17:38
that environment was. I didn’t realize
17:40
how unique our culture was. Thank you
17:41
for, you know, investing in me.” That
17:43
type of thing. And so it was very fun to
17:45
help them get where they wanted to go.
17:46
Uh similar to players.
Stepping Ground for Everyone
17:48
Yeah, that’s interesting. I didn’t think
17:50
about that, but really it was a stepping
17:51
ground for like everyone in the
17:53
organization.
17:54
uh and you had the responsibility and
17:57
opportunity to actually lead them
17:59
through like developing themselves as
18:02
you would instill into your leaders
18:04
knowing that they’re going to be leaving
18:06
you uh to go somewhere else or knowing
18:08
that they wanted to go somewhere else
18:09
after maybe to the NBA or maybe to the
18:12
Rangers wherever they wanted to go. What
18:14
were some of the things that you tried
18:16
to instill in your staff and your team
18:18
of great leadership principles?
Instilling Leadership Principles
18:20
Yeah, so one thing it’s important to
18:22
instill those things. There’s a couple
18:23
ways that needs to be done. One, you
18:25
have to know what you want to instill.
18:26
But two, you have that in the way of of,
18:29
you know, mentoring and certain folks
18:31
you’re building into directly, your
18:32
direct reports in those things. Uh, two,
18:34
setting up a certain culture that
18:36
rewards or or celebrates certain things
18:38
that you want to encourage. Uh, and then
18:41
you also have, excuse me, you have, um,
18:45
as you get to know each of these staff,
18:46
getting to know what their goals and
18:47
objectives are and really see, okay, how
18:49
do we get them from here to here and
18:51
help them think through what those goals
18:52
and objectives uh, are. But you have to
18:54
model things
18:55
in that uh, is you model the type of
18:58
leadership you want and and I’m very
19:00
imperfect. My other leaders were all
19:01
imperfect and flawed. But that’s part of
19:03
what you model. You model apologizing.
19:05
You model when you screw up, owning
Modeling Leadership
19:08
and making it right. And if you need to
19:10
ask for someone’s forgiveness, you do
19:11
that. If you need to do that publicly
19:13
because you did something publicly uh
19:14
there, you do it publicly in front of
19:16
the whole staff. You know, you apologize
19:17
to someone. Uh and that’s modeling for
19:19
them as well. Uh and so it’s important
19:20
to model that uh of how how you
19:23
reconcile, how you apologize, how you
19:25
confront, how you make decisions, how
19:27
you lead, uh how you encourage, all
19:29
those things. And so I think modeling is
19:31
very important. uh and then having uh
19:33
you know mentoring uh uh opportunities
19:35
but then creating an environment in a
19:37
culture where people can really flourish
19:39
and one ways we approach it Chris is we
19:41
really want to help people thrive not
19:43
just professionally
Holistic Development
19:44
but personally we we are holistic people
19:46
and so we want to think of it
19:47
holistically not that we wanted to you
19:49
know tinker and interfere in people’s
19:50
lives but we were had a lot of staff
19:53
they were with us during fascinating
19:54
life stages a lot of them just graduate
19:56
from college they’re going to go through
19:58
maybe an engagement they’re renting um
20:00
leasing their first car, buying their
20:02
first car, buying their first house,
20:03
birth of a first child. We had a lot of
20:04
firsts with staff who were with us. And
20:06
so, it’s really fun to walk with them
20:08
through that as much as they wanted us
20:09
to walk through with them uh those
20:12
things, but really trying to help them
20:13
see a balanced life and integrating the
20:15
the whole and they knew, hey, we really
20:17
care about them personally as well as
20:19
professionally.
Leadership in Practice
20:20
Yeah. And I guess it’s something that we
20:20
don’t talk about enough on the podcast
20:24
is it’s not just about what you want to
20:26
instill in people, it’s how you want to
20:29
instill it in them. and to kind of walk
20:31
the walk with them and really do life
20:33
with them and show them this is what
20:35
leadership looks like. Sometimes that’s
20:35
even better than trying to instill
20:38
whatever leadership principles that
20:40
people have. So, I love that.
Career Transition
20:41
Um, so you kind of got into this trend
20:45
that maybe it followed after your dad a
20:47
little bit of like helping start
20:49
organizations and helping kind of be the
20:51
spearhead person in a new thing. So,
20:55
after minor minor leagues, what did you
20:57
go on to do after that? And let me say
20:59
this too, Chris. The word minor leagues
21:01
is a terrible marketing word because the
21:03
word minor sounds insignificant where
21:04
minor league baseball to me is just it’s
21:06
it’s awesome. I love minor league
21:07
baseball and it is, you know, they have
21:09
upwards of almost 50 million people a
21:11
year around the country going to minor
21:12
league baseball games uh there. And so
21:14
if if any of the listeners have not been
21:16
to minor league baseball game, I hope
21:18
that they will uh go find one and take
21:20
an opportunity to see that because it’s
21:22
it’s really really fun. So from there uh
Consulting and Entrepreneurship
21:24
I went and started doing some uh some
21:26
consulting. First of all, when I left
21:27
the Ruff Riders, I took a few months
21:29
just to uh do a whole bunch of deferred
21:30
maintenance around the house. A lot of
21:32
honeydew lists to kind of decompress uh
21:34
because you work a lot of games. You
21:35
have 70 games, you know, each season.
21:37
So, it’s a lot of dinners you miss. And
21:39
uh there that I wanted to have more time
21:40
with the family for a little bit and
21:41
really build into them that summer and
21:43
then started getting more involved in
21:44
some other uh projects. And that really
21:46
ended up becoming much more time with
21:48
one of my clients and and then was
21:50
running um with some others uh group
21:53
called Nelte Sports. And Neltex was uh
21:55
was a lot of fun with that. Uh it was
21:57
small entrepreneurial. We did a lot of
21:59
unique fun things including you. We
22:01
acquired the sports leadership institute
22:02
and put on these different events for
22:04
the industry. The global sports summit,
22:05
the collegiate sports summit, uh the
22:07
global sports summit for u owners and uh
22:10
team um presidents, GMs, those types of
22:13
things. It was invite only. And with
22:15
with Nelteex, uh the nail of Nelte was
22:18
Donnie Nelson, who was the then
22:19
president and general manager on the
22:21
basketball side there for the Mavericks.
22:22
and sports being a small world. He was
22:24
my cabin, you know, camp counselor at
22:25
summer camp when I was a kid. So, you
22:27
know, we went uh way back and Donniey’s
22:28
a wonderful guy.
International Sports Projects
22:30
Uh he had a lot of relationships, a lot
22:31
of relationships in China
22:32
uh there. The first NBA player from
22:34
China ever drafted was by Donnie UI.
22:38
People know Yaoing was the first bigger
22:39
name that was there, but Donnie was kind
22:41
of very connected there. Lots of
22:43
relationships. And so through his
22:44
relationships, we ended up with an
22:46
opportunity to uh train the Chinese
22:48
national baseball team. And so he put me
22:49
in charge of kind of spearheading that
22:51
project. and we brought the Chinese
22:52
national baseball team to North Texas
22:54
and they were the roster of an
22:55
independent team that Donnie owned. Wow.
22:57
Texas Airhogs for a couple of summers
22:58
and that was a great project. So much
23:00
fun. Spent a lot of time in Beijing
23:01
getting those deals done and bringing
23:02
those and we were kind of turnkey for
23:04
our Chinese partners. We would provide
23:06
all the the housing, the medical, the
23:08
food, the baseball, the instruction, the
23:09
coaches and really make it just a
23:11
wonderful experience uh in that they are
23:13
not a uh baseball is not a tradition
23:14
there in that country and they didn’t
23:16
have much infrastructure. So the best
23:17
place for them to get better was to come
23:19
to the United States. It was a great I
23:21
thought we were doing our part for
23:22
cross-cultural relationships, you know,
23:23
there and things weren’t quite as
23:25
geopolitically tense as they are today,
23:26
but really made some great friends. That
23:28
was really a fun project that we did. We
23:30
also launched a professional rugby team
23:32
called the Dallas Jackals, which was a
23:33
fun experience. Major League Rugby
23:35
launched in 2017, and I didn’t know much
23:37
about the sport, but I knew a lot about
23:38
business and and uh about the sports
23:41
business there, and it was really a fun
23:42
challenge to bring that to life. And
23:44
there was uh uh folks there in the
23:46
beginning of that, Phil Cam, who really
23:47
is the one who really got that thing
23:49
lined up and and spent years on this and
23:51
then was able to help uh with the launch
23:54
of the team itself and uh we end up
23:56
selling that to the Texas Rangers uh
23:58
there. And it’s just rugby is a great
23:59
sport uh there. It’s not well known in
24:01
the US as it is in the British
24:03
Commonwealth uh countries and whatnot,
24:05
but as you learn about it and some of
24:06
the traditions of it, it’s fantastic.
24:08
Like I’m not sure if you know much about
24:09
rugby Chris, but one of the things we
24:11
loved is postmatch, this is all over the
24:13
world, the two teams would get together
24:15
and have uh have dinner and drinks.
24:17
Uh and the refs, they all got together.
24:19
The the the sport transcended rivalry,
24:22
transcended politics, religion, all
24:23
these different things. It really was a
24:25
unifying thing that uh folks would get
24:27
together afterwards, which I thought was
24:28
a great tradition. We did that. We did
24:30
that with our season ticket holders to
24:31
be able to join with that. And uh that
24:33
was a fun experience uh as well.
Cross-Cultural Leadership
24:35
Wow. Okay. thinking about Chinese
24:38
national baseball team real quick
24:40
leading a leading in a completely
24:43
different culture. I know it was here
24:45
but still interacting with people who
24:47
view leadership differently culturally
24:49
are very different potentially
24:51
especially because that was so new. Uh
24:53
what was that like? Yeah, you know that
24:56
was a fascinating uh experience and part
24:58
was partly what was helpful for me was
25:00
getting uh a quick education from some
25:02
friends who were um bicultural friends
25:04
you know Chinese friends who are very
25:05
much uh uh familiar with American
25:08
culture who spent half their time in the
25:09
United States half their time in in
25:10
China just to learning some of the
25:12
cultural nuances uh there because there
25:14
are differences in how you communicate
25:15
how you relate and uh those different
25:17
things at the one level though humans
25:19
are humans all over the world and so
25:20
there there is that but there are some
25:22
cultural nuances that are important to
25:23
be uh aware of uh for example uh with
25:26
certain decisions we’re trying to get
25:27
made or certain things we had presented
25:29
uh it was when there was a prolonged uh
25:31
not getting an answer a friend of mine
25:33
finally explained that’s they’re trying
25:34
to help me save face and that that means
25:36
no you know like okay well that’s
25:38
helpful to know you know so don’t keep
25:39
having to you know go after it and so
25:41
things like that were great when we
25:42
would travel over there they provided
25:44
such hospitality to us our Chinese
25:46
partners it was really uh just they
25:48
became friends it was great relationship
25:49
when they were here we tried to really
25:50
roll out the red carpet make a great
25:52
experience
Team Dynamics
25:53
uh for them as well. And then on the
25:55
baseball side though, we had a manager
25:57
who was just wonderful with uh
26:00
developing people, developing players,
26:02
but really had a heart for building into
26:03
these folks. I had a pitching coach who
26:06
um uh is the only person in the planet
26:07
with this qualification. He was a
26:09
college pitcher then pitched in Major
26:10
League Baseball uh the St. Louis
26:12
Cardinals organization for uh for a
26:14
period of time and then ended up uh uh
26:17
was overseas for a number of years.
26:18
actually spoke Mandarin and so he spoke
26:21
Mandarin and was qualified in the
26:22
baseball side and just fantastic person.
26:25
He was a huge
26:27
huge uh part of what we were doing those
26:29
two years when we had the Chinese
26:30
national team uh out here uh that made a
26:33
difference. Now where things transcend
26:35
uh there in that team we had a few
26:36
Dominicans, a few Americans but was
26:38
mostly Chinese on that roster. We had
26:40
some of the other players from uh you
26:41
know the US and um say Dominican because
26:44
to enhance their experience uh for the
26:46
Chinese players help develop them and
26:47
and just make the team more competitive.
26:49
Uh what was fun is seeing if the team
26:51
was going to gel was early on in the
26:53
season when uh one of u one of the
26:55
American players got hit by a pitch uh
26:58
that was you know thrown deliberately
27:00
and uh went to see what happened. Our
27:02
entire Chinese dugout rushed the the the
27:05
field as they should have. Yeah. And it
27:07
was like fun to see, okay, you know,
27:08
these guys have jelled, you know, there
27:10
there’s some things that that transcend
27:12
cultural and language barriers and all
27:13
that and they were a team, you know,
27:15
which was fun, but I think it was a
27:16
great experience for the players
27:18
uh of wherever they’re from who who were
27:20
there and great experience for the
27:21
community. I was glad we were able to do
27:23
that project.
Rugby Challenges
27:24
Wow. Okay. So, you’d seen basketball and
27:27
the launch of the Mavs, you’d seen the
27:29
launch of like DA team and been involved
27:33
in baseball.
27:35
Rugby feels really out there like that’s
27:37
not as popular when you think of
27:39
basketball and baseball. Were you
27:41
nervous getting into rugby or what was
27:43
the thought behind it and what was some
27:44
of the exciting stuff and what was some
27:46
some of the challenges? Yeah. Well, the
27:48
exciting thing was was a new challenge,
27:49
you know, with that uh in that hey, can
27:51
we make this thing viable uh here in the
27:53
states? It’s not as well known. The US
27:55
has has um
27:56
uh won the 2031 uh rugby world cup is
28:00
going to be in the United States. And so
28:02
we thought, okay, that’s which is
28:03
actually the second largest World Cup in
28:04
the world. It’s just not again as known
28:06
here. And so they’re trying to really do
28:07
a marketing push world rugby is and
28:09
really grow the sport in uh United
28:11
States. And I think as it
28:12
catches on, I think it really will
28:14
become successful uh there. what the
28:16
sport could really use is kind of like
28:18
Rexom, you know, you need the Ryan
28:20
Reynolds of the world. You need some big
28:21
personalities with big platforms to get
28:23
behind it. If if that was the case, they
28:25
could put it on the map and really make
28:26
it successful. Uh because it’s a great
28:28
sport, you know, there and it’s uh has
28:30
lower concussion uh index than American
28:32
football, you know, per per hour played
28:35
or whatever metric you want to use. And
28:36
these guys aren’t wearing the helmets.
28:38
Maybe that’s why because, you know,
28:39
they’re very careful how they tackle.
28:40
You can’t leave with your head. You
28:41
know, those
28:41
lots of different rules. But I saw it as
28:44
just a a fun u project, a fun uh uh goal
28:48
to see, hey, can we get this thing up
28:49
and running, get it through. I stayed
28:50
through that first season u and got it
28:52
uh uh going before we moved on to other
28:54
other projects.
Rugby Growth Potential
28:56
Uh and the league is still uh still
28:58
there. They’ve added uh more teams and
29:00
there’s been a couple teams that have
29:01
left. It’s it’s a tough uh tough
29:03
business as it is for many different
29:05
types of startup leagues. Uh but it’ll
29:07
be fun to see what uh what happens in
29:08
the coming years with rugby. Well, you
29:10
bring up the Rexom example and now
29:13
influencers getting are getting involved
29:14
all around the world in different sports
29:16
ventures. Some at really beginner level
29:19
or entry level to professional and some
29:21
at the highest levels. Uh what do you
29:23
think that’s doing for sports, good and
29:25
bad?
Influencers in Sports
29:26
Yeah, I think in general uh with with
29:28
some high-profile people getting behind
29:29
sports, I think that’s that’s good for
29:31
those teams, for those leagues, uh good
29:33
for the personal brand maybe of the of
29:35
the influencer. Uh and so I think there
29:37
can be certainly some value on that from
29:39
a marketing perspective. Uh there what’s
29:42
uh what’s a little bit uh you didn’t
29:43
quite ask this but the area that that’s
29:45
interesting is the whole NIL area there.
29:47
I teach a sports sponsorship class at
29:49
SMU the last seven years and that’s been
29:51
a hot topic last few years. I bring in
29:53
an expert to really help talk to the
29:55
class on those topics and it’s just it’s
29:57
very of a lot of interest to the
29:58
students and student athletes who are in
29:59
my class uh there and that it’s kind of
30:01
become a little bit of the wild wild
30:02
west. And I’m not an expert in those
30:04
things, but it’s um it seems like it can
30:06
incentivize uh I’m all for people to be
30:09
able to earn money, you know, there, but
30:11
it incentivizes people to build up their
30:13
own following, you know, and to uh
30:15
probably be as outlandish and as as
30:17
attention seeking as possible uh in
30:19
order to get uh more uh followers to
30:22
help your personal monetization of your
30:24
NIL. And uh I don’t know that that’s
30:26
great for for team sports or different
30:28
things. Um uh I’m not in the locker
30:30
room. I don’t know how those things work
30:31
and stuff, but there’s something that
30:33
seems unsavory uh or to a lot of folks.
30:35
I think I think we all realize there’s
30:36
something not quite right, but I don’t
30:37
know that there’s an easy solution
30:39
uh to those things. It’s amazing how
30:40
technology can really change the sports
30:42
and change the game. uh especially now
30:45
you have you know the major uh
30:47
professional sports athletes you know
30:48
making more money off the court off the
30:50
field uh than they are uh playing their
30:53
sport because of uh social media has
30:55
enabled uh amazing earning power uh as
30:57
these players have become brands in and
30:59
of themselves.
NIL Explained
31:00
Yeah. For those that are not following
31:03
sports closely and don’t know what the
31:05
NIL means for players, uh, explain name,
31:09
image, likeness a little bit and what it
31:12
was like and then what it is like now. I
31:14
didn’t even realize that you were kind
31:16
of teaching in that area SMU. So
31:18
yeah. So um so a few years ago Supreme
31:20
Court and Oban case um basically uh so
31:23
it’s went all the way up you the Supreme
31:24
Court that college athletes, amateur
31:26
athletes could have the right to use
31:27
their name, image and likeness to
31:29
monetize that uh there where before
31:31
amateur athletes if you had payment for
31:32
things you know would uh um nullify
31:35
their ability to be an amateur sports
31:37
and so that has changed. And so then um
31:40
you have all these uh uh different
31:42
co-ops and different things have set up
31:44
trying to figure out how how to leverage
31:46
this. there wasn’t great rules in place
31:48
uh on this uh there and so it’s been
31:50
interesting how different schools and
31:52
different boosters have kind of uh
31:53
approached these things but a player uh
31:55
who has a huge following you know can uh
31:57
have sponsors who come to them and want
31:59
him that player him or her to promote
32:01
that sponsor with a certain amount of uh
32:04
uh posts each year and certain amount of
32:06
appearances those types of things and
32:07
basically letting their likeness be used
32:11
uh and they get paid for it and to the
32:13
numbers of you have some of these
32:14
players uh millions of dollars
32:16
Some will make more money in college
32:18
sports in NIL than they will at the next
32:20
level because they have such a huge
32:21
following but maybe they’re not going to
32:22
actually be hugely successful in the
32:24
career that doesn’t always correlate
32:26
uh on those things. Uh and then you have
32:28
others who have make very modest
32:29
amounts, you know, so it’s we hear about
32:31
the certain names that are making four,
32:32
five, six, seven million a year uh
32:34
there. So essentially they’re kind of
32:35
professional athletes the platforms that
32:37
uh that they got. Um I don’t pretend to
32:40
know what a good solution is or answer.
32:42
Um it’s interesting because now it’s
32:44
also that uh schools are going to be
32:46
paying athletes
32:47
uh as well for their time and and doing
32:50
that and this depending sport it does
32:52
provide a lot of money for the school.
32:53
Most sports don’t provide money for the
32:54
school. They’re they’re a cash. They’re
32:56
an expense.
College Sports Evolution
32:57
Uh but it’s you know basketball or
32:58
football and basketball that kind of
33:00
maybe underwrites everything else uh for
33:02
that. And so um uh at the same time I’m
33:06
wondering how long till the band starts
33:07
saying well where’s mine? You know, I’m
33:09
we’re putting a lot of hours on this too
33:10
and performing and so it’s tricky if
33:12
you’re going to start paying athletes.
33:13
Uh but maybe that is the right thing to
33:15
do. I don’t take a strong opinion to see
33:17
me equivocating because I just really
33:18
don’t haven’t thought it through enough
33:19
to know and I’m not full-time in college
33:21
sports.
33:22
Yeah.
33:22
Uh but it just seems like the uh days of
33:25
innocence have been gone uh for a long
33:27
time though. Well before NIL. Well, and
33:29
it seems like uh for the longest time,
33:33
the majority of what you heard in the
33:35
news was that the idea of a college
33:38
athlete making money was just ludicrous
33:41
and they’re getting a great education
33:42
and the opportunities it’s opening up.
33:44
It’s crazy. And then kind of once that
33:46
Supreme Court decision happened, you
33:48
still had like a year of flux. But now
33:50
that it’s happening, it’s kind of like
33:51
everyone is like, well, of course they
33:53
get paid. Of course they would do this.
33:54
Like this is what they do and this is
33:55
what they do for the school. So, it’s
33:56
funny how even in the last less than 10
33:59
years, things have changed so much and
34:01
and I do think there’s other areas. Uh,
34:04
it’s interesting you brought up band,
34:05
but I think there’s other areas like
34:07
that where it’s like who knows what’s
34:09
going to change in the next 10 years.
34:10
Super interesting as leaders are trying
34:12
to think through that.
Opportunities in College Sports
34:13
It is very interesting time in college
34:15
sports which is creating opportunities
34:16
for different uh entities as well.
34:18
You’re also seeing more private capital
34:20
go into college sports
34:21
which is really interesting uh there
34:23
that uh I think your your major um
34:27
sports programs at different
34:28
universities are going to be I think
34:29
you’re see it much more starting to be
34:31
like pro sports uh there and they’ll
34:32
have GMs and they’ll be uh you know the
34:34
way they recruit and the payments they
34:36
do and it’s just uh it’s a fascinating
34:38
time.
Consulting and Leadership
34:39
Yeah. All right. So, at some point you
34:41
left the rugby world and went back to
34:43
consulting, uh, helping lead new
34:47
divisions in consulting. Talk about what
34:49
you’re doing today and how that even
34:51
came to be.
34:52
Yeah, so, uh, I think it was about three
34:54
years ago, um, I went with a friend of
34:56
mine I’ve known for 25 years, uh, Jim
34:58
Wilkinson, who’s another great example
35:00
of a servant leader. And Jim, uh, had
35:02
founded a company called Trail Runner
35:03
International, which is a strategic
35:05
communications firm with offices, uh,
35:06
all over the world, all over the US. uh
35:08
they really do tremendous work and they
35:10
were getting more sports clients on
35:12
helping uh different projects and they
35:14
thought hey Jim thought let’s go and
35:15
launch a sports division and so uh Jim
35:17
brought on three folks uh Maddie, Jamie,
35:19
myself uh to help launch Trailrunner
35:21
Sports uh offering these same um
35:24
specialized services to the sports
35:26
industry and so the work would be
35:28
fulfilled by our our full-time folks
35:29
within Trailrunner who are all the
35:31
communications experts and then through
35:33
Jamie, Maddie and myself and our
35:34
relationships and we help develop the
35:36
strategy and then launch of Trail Runner
35:38
Sports and try to get uh folks to uh uh
35:40
understand how we can be of assistance
35:42
to them in public private partnerships
35:43
or on media rights negotiations, NIL
35:46
things, all different types of ways that
35:48
we can consult and be of help uh for
35:50
those folks. And so it was really a fun
35:52
uh project and something to be part of
35:54
uh there. Wonderful company. Really
35:55
enjoyed uh being there for um for a
35:58
couple of years there. and then I phased
36:00
out of that last um fall uh and I’m
36:02
still a senior adviser uh with uh with
36:04
Trail Runner but then to start doing my
36:06
own uh more individual uh consulting
36:08
advisory and uh leadership development
36:10
speaking executive coaching
Leadership Development Focus
36:12
uh so I get to work with different
36:14
clients a lot of times it’s in the
36:15
seauite working with some very smart
36:17
talented folks helping them uh think
36:19
holistically and have balance personally
36:20
and professionally help them uh increase
36:23
their emotional quotient uh emotional
36:25
intelligence and uh and how they handle
36:27
conflict how they get along with one
36:28
other how they think uh strategically
36:30
those different aspects and just
36:31
encourage them as well. Work with some
36:33
sports clients where I might get into
36:35
more level of detail on the whole
36:37
business side. Uh and then on the
36:38
non-sports clients it’s more on the
36:40
leadership development. Sometimes it’s
36:41
also come up with programs for the next
36:43
level of bench strength and really help
36:45
build that VP level to get them ready to
36:47
take those next uh those next steps
36:49
forward. And so it’s really fun getting
36:51
to work with uh influential people and
36:53
people who carry some real weight and
36:54
real um stress as well and really help
36:57
them navigate the complexity of uh of
36:00
business and of life.
Blind Spots in Leadership
37:02
It’s interesting because from a young
37:04
age you were surrounded by top
37:06
performers and some of the top leaders
37:08
and and in all of your different
37:10
positions that you held you you were
37:13
helping lead big initiatives and were
37:15
surrounded by other great leaders. Now
37:17
you’re doing the cult, the coaching, the
37:20
consulting. Uh what are some things that
37:23
you see from a blind spot standpoint
37:25
that you think are common among leaders
37:28
in today’s world?
37:29
Well, I think that um uh it’s pretty
37:32
seems to be a universal truth that that
37:34
everyone has blind spots. And then of
37:36
course it makes you hopefully pause to
37:38
think, well, what are my blind spots?
37:39
And hopefully you have a a loved one or
37:40
a colleague or someone who can point out
37:42
our blind spots to us if we initiate or
37:44
ask them or maybe they’ll initiate and
37:45
let us know. uh there because it’s easy
37:48
to uh u self-deception is a very common
37:50
thing for uh for for folks. Some of the
37:53
common themes I see with a lot of uh
37:55
people is u uh many times it is not um
37:59
being aware of the the impact they’re
38:01
having on those around them.
38:03
Uh there uh it’s not being as in tune
38:05
with the uh the EQ aspect of it. uh that
38:09
um there there might be a price to pay
38:12
uh there or or things that are costing
38:14
within the business uh because of
38:15
interpersonal skills uh there that uh
38:18
that they don’t have an appreciation for
38:20
the impact they’re having in a way
38:22
that’s not always positive uh there. I
38:24
think that’s a pretty common uh one.
38:26
There’s also sometimes a blind spot of u
38:29
folks who who think that they are much
38:31
more um uh others oriented or much more
38:35
in tune with a organization than they
38:37
probably really are.
38:38
They don’t quite have the pulse that
38:39
they think they have. It’s easy to get
38:41
isolated when you’re in top positions uh
38:43
there and have folks who who really kind
38:45
of will reinforce or say the things that
38:47
uh that they think you want to hear. Uh,
38:49
and it takes a rare leader to be able to
38:52
see through that and ask the
Blind Spots and Feedback
38:53
questions or to elicit an environment
38:56
where they can get the more candid
38:57
feedback that might be more helpful to
38:59
them. Uh, where they might not really
39:01
have their finger on the pulse as much
39:02
as they think they do. I think that’s a
39:04
common one as well.
Awareness of Blind Spots
39:05
You know, we hear that we all have blind
39:08
spots and most of us, I would think,
39:12
think we are aware of those blind spots,
39:14
right? we see areas in ourselves that
39:16
are blind spots and it’s what like well
39:18
I know that’s a blind spot but I’m
39:19
purposefully ignorant to it um for
39:22
whatever reason and then there’s all
39:23
these blind spots that others see um
39:27
that that maybe the leader just has no
39:30
idea about and if you told them they
39:32
wouldn’t even believe it you know if I’m
39:33
like Scott this is what I see in you and
39:35
I see some great stuff but here’s an
39:36
area that you need to work on you might
39:38
be like Chris you are nuts like I I know
39:40
that I’m good at that everyone tells me
39:42
I’m good at that how do you even
39:43
approach those conversations because
39:45
you’ve had some tough conversations
39:47
leading all these different things and
39:48
even just from a consulting standpoint.
Weaknesses vs. Blind Spots
39:50
Yeah, you know, those are those are
39:52
tricky things. And also, let me make a
39:53
distinction, Chris, between uh
39:54
weaknesses and blind spots. And there’s
39:56
also sometimes where someone has certain
39:58
things that that they’re uh or issues.
40:01
They’re aware of them. It’s just it’s a
40:02
weakness. It’s not a blind spot. they
40:04
might ignore it or they might uh not uh
40:06
be too concerned about it, but it’s and
40:08
so also when your uh their colleagues or
40:11
their um direct reports might see these
40:13
things as as they see the weaknesses,
40:15
but they know they’re not blind spots
40:16
because the boss is aware of them. And
40:17
then blind spots might be something
40:18
where obviously the person is not aware
40:20
of of what it is. I think that um uh for
Confronting Blind Spots
40:23
for folks I’m thinking of my own life
40:26
too. I remember um in college one time
40:28
some some folks who uh were uh good
40:30
friends who loved me who confronted me
40:32
on something that uh uh had caused me
40:34
pause because I didn’t think they were
40:36
right, you know, uh there but I wanted
40:38
to listen to it because they took the
40:39
time and the risk of the relationship to
40:41
you know to to speak up on something and
40:44
and so then uh it was then asking a
40:46
couple other folks to see with the
40:48
humble heart. It’s helpful to get other
40:51
comments to see were they on to
40:53
something and I think you know they were
40:54
on to something you know that was
40:55
helpful. I’m grateful that they that
40:56
they spoke up. There might be other
40:58
times though where someone uh if one
41:00
person addresses you or it’s like if
41:02
you’re getting surveys, they’re staff
41:04
surveys and you see some person one
41:06
person wrote something about you a
41:07
certain way. You want to think about it
41:10
and take it seriously, but you think,
41:11
okay, is this person have axe crime?
41:13
What’s the situation? What’s the
41:14
context? Is it legitimate?
Validating Feedback
41:16
It might be. Your default mode should be
41:18
it probably is, but then look for
41:20
trends. Is the second person, third
41:22
person, fourth person commenting on
41:24
something similar? Okay. Well, then that
41:25
that should help solidify that, yeah,
41:27
there’s something there. If it is a
41:29
one-off, sometimes someone uh there’s a
41:31
personality quirk of something or
41:32
somebody is judging you on one
41:34
interaction on something that’s not
41:36
really fair or characteristic of of you
41:39
overall. Uh and so I think you know you
41:41
you got to be wise on on the different
41:43
feedback uh that that you get but you
41:44
always need to be open that that the
41:46
feedback might be valid you know uh and
41:48
you should be thankful that people are
41:49
giving you feedback
360 Stakeholder Analysis
41:50
uh there and then you can do with it you
41:52
know what you want and how you want to
41:54
deal with it. One of the techniques I do
41:55
with uh certain say decision makers or
41:57
CEOs is kind of I call it a 360 u
42:00
stakeholder uh uh project stakeholder
42:02
analysis where I’ll have them pick you
42:05
know seven eight nine 10 key
42:06
stakeholders for them and then pave the
42:08
way for me to reach out to all of them
42:09
and I’ll sit with them each oneonone and
42:12
ask kind of several questions about the
42:14
person uh to get feedback and then I can
42:17
distill it and I can put it all where
42:19
it’s going to be anonymous but I’ll draw
42:21
out the themes and then work with that
42:23
CEO and with themes are and one to help
42:25
protect the people. It’s a third party
42:26
doing it and they understand that
42:27
nothing’s going directly to the you know
42:29
to the person uh because I’m the filter
42:31
for that. So then I can hopefully get a
42:33
more honest feedback and sometimes
42:34
especially in small companies when you
42:36
have uh uh 360s you know on on you know
42:39
in the computer you can kind of tease
42:41
out who said what. You know people might
42:43
be maybe are not as quite as forthright
42:45
because they’re concerned uh uh on if it
42:48
might come back to haunt them. And so
42:50
this is a technique that I can do that
42:52
that helps protect people to get more
42:54
honest feedback because that’s what a
42:55
CEO should want. And then from that we
42:58
can draw out stuff uh and sometimes
43:00
it’ll validate things that are already
43:01
aware of uh that are good. Sometimes
43:04
it’ll identify some areas of opportunity
43:05
and help them have a map help them map
43:08
it out going forward of how to best lead
43:10
and how to incorporate this knowledge
43:13
into how they make decisions and how
43:14
they lead. when you do those 360s in
Leader Awareness
43:17
general, uh, is it what the leader
43:20
thought or are they surprised? Like how
43:22
aware because these are some of the most
43:24
successful people. How aware are they?
43:27
Um,
43:29
yeah, just when when you go through that
43:31
feedback with them.
43:32
U, my experience, Chris, has been it’s
43:33
rare for a CEO not to have some level of
43:36
some blind spots that these will these
43:38
will tease out uh like the 360 there.
43:40
Some are more in tune with themselves
43:42
than others. uh some have better
43:43
feedback mechanisms than than others uh
43:45
there. Uh and and so it’s a it’s a wide
43:47
range. For some it’ll be okay, this is
43:49
uh pretty good feedback on stuff that
43:51
validates this is kind of what they
43:53
thought at least now they know.
43:54.
Uh but it’s rare that there’s not
43:56
something that’s uncovered a little bit
43:57
that’s going to be helpful to them that
43:58
they’re not quite aware that something
43:59
that they’ve
Effective Communication
44:01
a way they’ve been operating has not
44:02
been landing like they thought it was.
44:04
Uh and it’s just helpful for them to
44:05
know that so they can course correct a
44:07
little bit. uh there occasionally will
44:09
be something where there’s significant
44:10
things uh uncovered and usually there’s
44:12
some cultural issues and other things
44:14
that um I already kind of can be aware
44:17
of uh on a company if if if someone’s
44:19
that out of touch uh but most you know
44:22
these folks they want to be good leaders
44:24
you know and with their key stakeholders
44:26
know is hey it’s better for your CEO to
44:30
be a great leader you want to give good
44:31
feedback and help them thrive you want
44:33
to make them look good you want to make
44:34
them really
44:35
be great because that’s good for the
44:36
organization good for you you everyone
44:37
wins when a leader gets better
44:39
uh there and so the important thing like
44:41
on that type of exercise with a 360 is a
44:43
CEO who’s open-minded on whatever we
44:47
learn from this we have to realize that
44:49
this is not from a sample size of one
44:51
this is from key stakeholders so
44:52
therefore let’s take it seriously
Leadership Lessons
44:54
I’m guessing because you’ve been doing
44:55
this for so long that there’s some
44:58
things even though people are giving
44:59
feedback on their CEO let’s say um after
45:04
enough of them there’s some things
45:06
probably that you take way as leadership
45:08
lessons just from oh here’s some common
45:11
themes that I’m bumping into with all
45:13
these CEOs like what are some things
45:15
you’ve learned along the way that have
45:16
stood out and been like wow here’s an
45:18
area that I really need to pay attention
45:19
to as I lead at the next level
45:21
you know one of the areas Chris that
45:23
that seems to be uh common for for
45:26
companies and for leaders is uh leaders
45:30
rarely are as effective communicators as
45:32
they think they are
45:34
uh and so being an effective
45:35
communicator means meaning that uh uh
45:38
you’re you’re transparent where
45:39
appropriate, but you’re regular uh
45:41
there’s a regular cadence of it. You’re
45:43
really um very uh intentional about
45:46
communication uh there. Uh small
45:49
companies or large companies uh the
45:51
communication generally is not where it
45:53
could be. Uh there a lot of times we
45:54
think smaller companies, smaller
45:55
entities, it’s easier you think and
45:57
communication issues will not be uh as
45:59
pronounced. Uh that’s not necessarily
46:01
the case. You can have a lot of
46:02
communication dysfunction within small
46:04
companies too. But but uh most leaders
46:06
are uh are not as strong of
46:09
communicators. Now, if they’re given a
46:11
speech or something and they have their
46:12
stuff, they’re fine on that. I mean,
46:14
from the day-to-day within the
46:16
organization of really um uh hitting the
46:19
key things and figuring out who needs to
46:21
know what, how do we make sure this gets
46:24
out to folks? How do we make sure that
46:25
it lands that they understand? Uh there
46:28
um and it’s not that they’re trying to
46:29
necessarily hold things close to the
46:30
vest. um a lot of times it’s just not
46:32
thinking it through or not having
46:34
mechanisms in place to really make sure
46:35
that they’re communicating very very
46:37
clearly throughout the organization. I
46:39
think that’s one of the big ones.
Communication Challenges
46:40
Yeah.
46:40
I think another one is um that uh um
46:44
there are many uh leaders who really
46:48
don’t have the understanding that they
46:50
think they do two layers down. they they
46:53
understand a little bit more on their
46:54
direct reports, but uh the next layer
46:57
down or one below that, there’s times
46:59
they’re not nearly as in tune with
47:01
what’s going on, what people are
47:02
thinking or feeling uh that uh than they
47:06
should be.
47:07
Uh and uh I think that’s important for
47:09
them to uh to mitigate those things uh
47:12
so you can lead. Not that you can’t have
47:13
50 direct reports, but you have to have
47:15
a better understanding of how things are
47:16
going at all the layers through the
47:18
company. Yeah, the communication one
47:20
especially is interesting because that’s
47:22
an area where we’ve even talked about as
47:24
as a team in some of the stuff that I’m
47:26
involved in where I feel like I’m
47:28
communicating constantly the vision, the
47:32
mission, the values, the the critical
47:34
success factors each month. Like I feel
47:37
like I’m overdoing it and then often the
47:40
feedback is like we still have no idea.
47:43
Like we’re we’re just not tracking. What
47:45
are some ways that you think great
47:47
leaders communicate well and effectively
47:49
throughout an whole a whole
47:50
organization?
Improving Communication
47:51
Well, first of all, Chris, it’s great
47:52
that you’re being deliberate about that
47:54
and you very well could be doing all
47:56
those things, communicating uh u
47:58
appropriately uh and then it’s a matter
48:00
of then okay, why is it not being
48:02
absorbed or landing and so some of that
48:04
is within your one-on ones having folks
48:06
repeat things back to you uh there make
48:08
sure they understand it. Sometimes it’s
48:10
could be through uh doing a survey
48:12
periodically. no one’s in trouble with
48:13
this, but that you want to see if people
48:15
have grasped these things. And so you’re
48:17
having them the wise of a company. How
48:20
many of them can actually give you the
48:21
mission statement, you know, on a survey
48:23
without having in front of them. How
48:24
many can know the values of the company?
48:25
How many know the strategic initiatives
48:27
that are, you know, being worked on? Uh
48:29
and then as you get that feedback on a
48:30
on a survey, then you know, okay, when
48:32
our next uh staff meeting we’re going to
48:34
or staff retreat, we’re really going to
48:35
have to go a little bit deeper on these
48:36
these things uh with folks because uh
48:39
it’s true there’s times that I feel like
48:41
I’ve really communicated clearly, you
48:42
know, a few times and somehow it’s not
48:44
sinking in. Happens to our kids too
48:45
sometimes, right?
48:46
Uh there and and communication, you
48:48
know, it’s a responsibility of the
48:50
communicator. You know, we have to make
48:51
sure that it’s upon us to make sure that
48:54
people are are it’s landing that people
48:55
are absorbing this. And it’s frustrating
48:58
because there’s never going to be
48:58
perfect communication, but all we can do
49:00
at our end is make sure that we’re being
49:02
intentional, being deliberate on, uh, on
49:05
communicating. Uh, but then kind of
49:07
spot-checking it periodically, too. I
49:08
used to do that at staff meetings
49:09
sometimes, too. Uh, where I would just,
49:12
uh, kind of pick on someone to say and
49:14
ask them a certain question or see how
49:16
many people and then people start
49:17
learning, they be prepared when they
49:19
come to meetings. Yeah.
Coaching and Communication
49:20
But, uh, if they understand these
49:21
things, not that’s trying to got you,
49:22
it’s just coaching teaching moments. As
49:24
a leader, you’re always looking for
49:25
coaching moments,
49:26
right? You know, that’s that’s where so
49:27
much uh value takes place is you’re
49:29
coaching people all the time.
49:31
Yeah. I love the two things that stand
49:34
out there for me. It’s on the
49:36
communicator to make sure they’re
49:38
communicating well, which is so obvious,
49:39
but so often in a leadership role, it’s
49:42
like, well, I already communicated it,
49:44
so if they don’t get it, that’s on them,
49:46
right? And that’s just a natural
49:47
default, which is like, okay, how do you
49:48
get out of that mindset? And then um
49:52
yeah, secondly, just thinking through
49:54
how do you help people with that level
49:56
of preparedness uh and taking ownership?
49:59
Like there’s just some really good
50:00
thoughts there. Something that um that I
50:04
think is really cool is and I know
50:07
recently the Mavs honored your dad uh in
50:10
a in a really special way, but I think
50:12
it’s cool how close you and your dad
50:14
seem to be from the outside and how uh
50:17
really he’s instilled a lot of amazing
50:19
leadership uh insights and and traits,
50:23
leadership traits in you. Talk about
50:25
what it was like growing up with your
50:27
dad.
Father’s Influence
50:28
Yeah, so you know, great question. Love
50:30
my father. very blessed with a great dad
50:32
and mom uh who just coming off of
50:33
Mother’s Day here recently and so
50:35
thankful for my parents and my brother,
50:37
sister and I uh were it’s a close-knit
50:40
family. So thankful for that. Now it
50:42
doesn’t mean there wasn’t some level of
50:43
of of you know baggage you bring out.
50:45
Every family has something you know
50:46
there but it was a wonderful family you
50:48
know and so much to be thankful for
50:50
uh with my parents and my father was an
50:52
extraordinary leader. uh he had great
50:54
vision and just uh he had a lot of
50:56
enthusiasm and ability to really you
50:57
know get things done and get things done
50:59
through other people and some of the
51:00
things I saw through him that uh were
51:02
fun is one he spoke a lot uh when he was
51:05
you know president of the Mavericks that
51:06
was a platform for him to speak at lots
51:07
of things and growing up a lot of times
51:09
I get to go and hear him speak at
51:10
different things he speak a lot of uh uh
51:13
community events and business functions
51:15
lunchons banquetss but also Christian
51:16
things and and it’s just kind of fun to
51:18
hear him how he communicates uh and how
51:20
he leads and some of the principles he’s
51:22
always teaching principles He’s always
51:24
sharing stories, storytelling. That’s
51:25
one of the ways that you lead is by
51:27
sharing stories. You know, it’s what
51:28
Jesus did. He shared lots of stories,
51:30
lots of his parables there. And that
51:33
stories and so it used to be a think,
51:35
well, he’s said the story. I’ve heard
51:36
this a lot of times. I can tell the
51:37
story and then thinking, well, maybe
51:38
he’s telling it because I’m not it’s not
51:40
sinking in fully and I need to keep
51:41
doing it stuff. But also, they’re great
51:42
points and principles that are in
51:44
stories that uh were good. Uh he was
51:46
also very good at at the importance of
51:48
uh of pulling the weeds you know there
51:50
as far as staying on top of issues you
51:52
know confronting things that need to be
51:53
confronted you know being you know
51:55
direct he always called a velvet covered
51:57
brick you know that you want to be uh as
51:59
tender as possible you know but as firm
52:01
as necessary this is in Galatians 6:1
52:03
talks about if anyone’s in sin you you
52:06
restore him you want to restore that
52:09
brother
Leadership Principles
52:09
but you restore them uh the Greek word
52:12
for restore is a medical term talking
52:13
about setting a broken bone and So if
52:15
someone is is uh is uh misaligned and
52:18
you have to deal with them, you want to
52:20
restore that broken bone, but you want
52:22
to do it as gentle as possible but as
52:24
firm as necessary. You have to be firm
52:26
enough to set that bone correctly uh
52:28
there. And so I thought that was a great
52:30
uh model that uh that he had. He’d also
52:33
share a lot from like Proverbs 15:1 uh
52:36
gentle answer turns away wrath or harsh
52:37
words stir anger talking about the
52:39
importance of not escalating things or
52:40
having you know a gentle response. uh he
52:42
made a comment one time uh when he was
52:44
speaking that he has his MBA from
52:46
University of Chicago. He said he’s
52:47
learned more about uh dealing with
52:49
people and running a business uh from
52:51
the book of Proverbs than he has from
52:53
his MBA, you know, and I kind of kid
52:56
around and said, “Well, that’s because
52:56
it’s Chicago Northwestern where I went,
52:58
you know, if you know more.” But uh he
53:00
loves the book of Proverbs. He’s given
53:02
out thousands of copies of of the living
53:04
proverb, his little booklet to to folks
53:06
because there’s so many general truths
53:07
in there, so many things about the human
53:09
condition and about decision-m and uh
53:11
how you deal with how you deal with
53:13
people uh there. And so he’s one of
53:15
those unique personalities to you
53:16
though. He’s very type a cleric and
53:18
strong uh and that can uh uh
53:20
personalities like that can accomplish a
53:23
lot and there’s certain folks who the
53:25
personality type it’s it’s hard harder
53:26
for them when someone is so strong. And
53:29
yet I’d call him a servant leader in
53:30
that I see him so often behind the
53:32
scenes, the stuff he does and does for
53:33
people. I’ll give you one example.
Servant Leadership
53:35
Uh so for 33 summers he ran a basketball
53:37
clinic in upstate New York uh there and
53:39
he’d bring different pros and college
53:41
athletes and uh and a bunch of you know
53:43
staff for 130 campers and it was really
53:45
unique place and and it was just one
53:47
week of the summer. He did this while he
53:48
was running the Mavericks too. He
53:49
started it before he was in basketball,
53:51
before he was with the Mavericks, but he
53:52
did it all those years. And one of the
53:54
unique things, distinctives is this is
53:56
up in the Aaron Mountains, is that each
53:58
of the campers, one day during the week,
54:00
we put in three groups would go on a day
54:02
hike where we take them in the mountains
54:03
in a beautiful hike with the players and
54:04
stuff. And it was just really a fun
54:05
experience to to get out there. And so
54:07
there’s like three days in a row, we’d
54:09
have groups going out for hikes, uh, for
54:11
day hikes. And the group would come back
54:13
and then they all had cantens. My dad
54:16
would have them all filled up with, you
54:17
know, cold water. He’d set them up in
54:19
the big fridge and all the cantens. He
54:21
would take all of them, take them to the
54:22
accommodation he had there in the camp
54:24
with the little kitchen and he would
54:26
take them all out of the little uh
54:27
canvas covers that they’re in. He’d
54:29
clean them all and then uh dry them and
54:32
fill them with water and then hang them
54:35
uh uh on the thing to dry and then put
54:38
them in the big fridge for the next day.
54:40
There’s like 40 of them and he would do
54:41
them all by hand every time. And he went
54:44
in be have their first sip on the
54:45
mountain. He wanted to be cold water. So
54:46
he had made sure they were put in the
54:47
refrigerator all night uh to they were
54:50
sanitary and they were clean and he
54:51
could have delegated that or something
54:52
but it’s something he just wanted to do
54:53
and make sure it was done right and no
54:54
one knew he did that. I did because
54:57
sometimes I was helping them, you know,
54:58
there. But, uh, it was nice when
55:01
someone’s willing to do a lot of behind
55:02
the-scenes things and the whole topic,
55:04
if I could for a minute, Chris, on on
55:06
servant leadership,
Defining Servant Leadership
55:07
it’s such a important topic and it’s
55:10
something that always needs to be
55:11
defined
55:12
uh there because it can be a little
55:13
tricky in that uh
55:15
uh for some folks servant leadership
55:16
like in say Christian circles is uh it
55:20
can end up being reduced to, you know, a
55:22
young man doing whatever the women in
55:24
his life are telling him to do. you
55:25
know, is what the cynic says, you know,
55:27
and so you can create some passivity and
55:30
uh uh sometimes uh you serve by leading
55:34
as part of servant leadership, you know,
55:35
and so there’s a time when when you have
55:37
to be you have to make the decision. You
55:38
make it though on the behalf of what you
55:40
think is the best for the group, for the
55:41
person and all that. You’re you are you
55:43
are sacrificing and bleeding for others.
55:45
That is servant leadership. Servant
55:47
leadership is not necessarily always uh
55:49
uh getting consensus and doing exactly
55:52
what the majority wants to do. You want
55:53
consensus and you want to get feedback,
55:56
but there are times you’re going have to
55:57
make a decision that you think is the
55:58
right decision even if the group’s not
56:00
quite with you uh there and you try to
56:02
win people over, but you might still
56:03
have to make a tough decision. If you’re
56:04
only worried about uh uh going with the
56:07
group, uh then you’re going to u not
56:10
speak up when you need to. If you’re
56:11
only worried about being popular as
56:13
opposed to being effective,
56:14
uh then uh you’re going to not make hard
56:17
calls sometimes. And so as leaders, you
56:19
have to realize that part of how you uh
56:20
serve is by leading. uh there not just
56:23
uh becoming passive uh and that that
56:26
doesn’t mean service leadership has to
56:28
lead towards passivity properly
56:30
understood it’s not Jesus was the great
56:31
example of it he washed feet uh he also
56:35
uh made a cord of you know made a whip
56:37
out of cords and uh turned up tables you
56:39
know uh in the temple twice you know
56:42
there there’s a variety of ways he
56:44
approached different situations as a
56:45
leader you need the wisdom of what what
56:47
how do I need to be how do I need to
56:49
show up in this situation uh there and
56:51
I’d say he was a servant leader in both
56:53
cases uh there we always identify it as
56:55
the washing of feet part of it but he’s
56:57
also a servant leader when he is setting
56:59
the standard and the example uh and uh
57:01
very strong in his behavior uh
57:03
elsewhere.
Strong Leadership
57:04
Yeah. Well, I love that. I I love even
57:06
just thinking through that because it is
57:08
easy to think through when people think
57:10
of Jesus but only the washing of the
57:12
feet. Um it is sometimes there’s that
57:16
other level of servant leadership which
57:17
is strong leadership uh that benefits
57:20
those around them. So
57:21
yes.
57:22
Yeah. I love that.
57:23
And you have to be willing as a leader
57:24
to realize that you’re going to be
57:25
second guessed and people are going to
57:26
say, “Oh, he’s self- serving. This is
57:28
just for him.” And you make sure you
57:30
know your heart and your motives. Is it?
57:31
You know, you want to make sure you’re
57:32
not being self- serving. But if you are
57:34
really trying to uh do the best thing on
57:36
behalf of your wife, your kids, your
57:38
your co-workers, those things. Uh there
57:41
are times you’re going to be
57:41
misunderstood and you have to be okay
57:42
with that. There are times you’re going
57:44
to be criticized. You have to be okay
57:46
with that and develop some thick skin.
57:49
But you also have to be very open to
57:51
feedback and make sure that you’re uh
57:53
approaching it correctly and you’re
57:54
thinking things through uh correctly uh
57:56
there. But it’s uh one of the very
57:58
important parts of servant leadership is
57:59
the is the leading part.
Rapidfire Questions
58:00
Yeah.
58:01
All right. I want to I want to finish
58:03
this with 10 rapidfire questions.
58:05
Oh boy.
58:05
Where you say the first thing that comes
58:07
to mind. There’s no wrong answer. Who’s
58:09
the first person you think of when I say
58:11
servant leadership?
58:13
Jesus. Okay. Isn’t that the correct
58:15
Sunday school answer there that we have
58:16
to say? Uh um and uh then uh my father
58:20
would be the first human one.
58:22
All right. Um favorite book or author?
58:25
Favorite uh author? Probably Doug Wilson
58:28
or Thomas Soul. I’m going to give you
58:30
two or three if you by the way that
58:31
popped to to uh uh there.
58:34
Uh favorite book? Um I want to say the
58:36
brothers Kamazoff to make me sound
58:38
sophisticated. You know, Theodor Devki.
58:40
Uh but I tried to read it three times
58:42
now and I can’t ever get through the
58:43
first third because the Russian names
58:44
are so long. So, I hear it’s one of the
58:46
best novels ever written, but I haven’t
58:47
I love to read and I haven’t finished
58:48
that. But, yeah, I I do love to read.
58:51
Favorite sports team?
58:53
Favorite sports team? Uh, for me, uh,
58:55
college would be the
Favorite Sports to Watch
0:58:57
where I met my wife and, uh, pro team.
0:59:00
It of course always, the Mavericks will
0:59:01
always be near and dear to me.
0:59:03
Is basketball your favorite sport to
0:59:04
watch or what’s your favorite sport to
0:59:05
watch?
Playoffs and Outdoor Activities
0:59:06
Uh, favorite sport to watch is playoffs
0:59:08
of most sports. Uh, uh, there’s that. I
0:59:11
don’t watch as much sports probably
0:59:12
during the regular season as I uh as I
0:59:14
used to.
0:59:15
But play out the hockey playoffs are
0:59:17
really fun to watch there as well as um
0:59:20
basketball um there. But if it came down
0:59:22
for me between watching a a sports game
0:59:25
or going hiking, I would choose the
0:59:27
outdoors. Do I do love the outdoors?
Favorite Free Time Activities
0:59:29
All right. What’s uh your favorite thing
0:59:31
to do in your free time then?
0:59:32
So favorite time uh would be uh if we’re
0:59:34
out of town would be uh hiking, climbing
0:59:37
mountains and you with the family doing
0:59:39
those things. Yes. What’s a surprising
Surprising Personal Facts
0:59:41
fact about you?
0:59:43
Uh surprising fact, I have some quirks.
0:59:45
Uh my wife would be quick to tell you I
0:59:47
have a lot of interesting quirks there.
0:59:48
Um uh occasionally I’ll go on some
0:59:50
extended fasts. And so uh last year, I
0:59:53
guess two years ago was the last one I
0:59:54
did. I did a 28 day water only fast.
Fasting and Sweet Tooth
0:59:57
Uh so occasionally I’ll I’ll just stop
1:00:00
eating for two, three, four weeks
1:00:02
uh to kind of recalibrate my appetites
1:00:04
and uh and for you know spiritual
1:00:06
disciplines. And it’s just a a unique
1:00:08
exercise. And so that’s I’m kind of all
1:00:10
or nothing. I also uh I have a sweet
1:00:13
tooth and so uh right now I’m off sugar
1:00:15
but refined sugar. I had a few years ago
1:00:17
where my goal was to go off sugar for
1:00:19
the year and I went 364 days in 22 and a
1:00:22
half hours. But it was new New Year’s
1:00:24
Eve 10:30 p.m. and I just really felt
1:00:26
like having a bowl of ice cream and I
1:00:28
thought, you know what, I’m rounding up.
1:00:29
It’s close enough. So I I missed it by
1:00:30
an hour and a half my year of
1:00:32
sugar-free.
Post-Fast Indulgence
1:00:33
Wow. I thought you were going to say you
1:00:34
had 28 days after the water only of just
1:00:38
sugar.
1:00:38
Of just sugar. Yeah.
1:00:39
Well, it used to be if my wife would
1:00:41
leave town for two or three days, you
1:00:42
know, it wasn’t very often, but she went
1:00:44
to go visit her parents, she’d get back
1:00:46
and I’d be thinking, I think 95% of the
1:00:48
calories I’ve eaten since she’s been
1:00:49
gone were bad calories, you know. So,
1:00:52
I’m much I’m getting better, more
1:00:53
sanctified as I get older.
Favorite Travel Destinations
1:00:55
Favorite place you’ve been?
1:00:57
Uh favorite place is probably uh
1:00:58
Grindald, Switzerland. M
1:01:00
went there for a honeymoon and uh doing
1:01:02
a family trip there uh shortly and
1:01:04
stuff, but I love the Swiss Alps.
Travel Bucket List
1:01:05
Anywhere you want to go that you have
1:01:07
not been.
1:01:08
Yeah, I keep a file of a whole bunch of
1:01:10
places. Love to go. Um
1:01:11
top place
1:01:12
there that uh I would love to go to um
1:01:15
uh to Patagonia. Uh and also British
1:01:19
Columbia.
1:01:20
Wow.
1:01:21
I’ve not been to the Canadian Rockies.
Best Advice Received
1:01:23
All right. Best advice you’ve ever
1:01:24
received?
1:01:26
Probably Matthew 22:37 39. you know, um,
1:01:29
love the Lord your God with all your
1:01:30
heart, soul, mind, uh, love and
1:01:33
strength, love your neighbor as
1:01:34
yourself.
1:01:34
And I think if you get those things in
1:01:36
order, loving God enables you to love
1:01:38
people. You know, you get both, uh,
1:01:40
those aspects there.
Importance of Servant Leadership
1:01:41
There’s, uh, um, I’ve gotten so much
1:01:43
advice over the years that’s been great,
1:01:44
it’s hard to probably narrow it down to
1:01:46
just uh, to just one, but that’s
1:01:47
certainly a good one.
1:01:49
All right. And finally, why is it better
1:01:52
for people listening to care about
1:01:53
becoming better servant leaders?
1:01:56
I think that uh why it’s important is
1:01:58
that as you become a better servant
1:01:59
leader uh those around you can flourish
1:02:01
better and you will too and that you
1:02:03
want to see human flourishing in your
1:02:06
marriage in your family in your business
1:02:09
in your community and if we have more
1:02:11
folks who are really being servant
1:02:12
leaders who are really looking out for
1:02:14
the interests of others uh there and
1:02:16
really um modeling that building into
1:02:18
folks loving folks uh making the hard
1:02:20
decisions that need to be done
1:02:21
confronting things that need to be
1:02:22
confronted going to battle when you need
1:02:24
to go to battle on behalf of others. Uh
1:02:26
I think that everyone can thrive and it
1:02:29
can be great for community and so I
1:02:30
think that the world would be a better
1:02:32
place if we had a lot more servant
1:02:33
leaders.
Closing Remarks
1:02:34
Yeah. Well, Scott, thank you for being
1:02:36
willing to be on the podcast and thank
1:02:38
you for sharing your wisdom with our
1:02:39
audience.
1:02:40
Pleasure to be with you. Thanks so much,
1:02:41
Chris. Love what you’re doing here with
1:02:42
the Servant Leadership Podcast.
Podcast Outro
1:02:46
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1:02:47
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1:02:50
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1:02:52
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1:02:54
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