Career Realization

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I got to a point in my career where I

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was making more money than I ever

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thought was possible

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and to the point where I was even

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financially taking care of my mother and

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my and some of my brothers and sisters.

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And I remember one day, I I'll never

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forget it. I was uh it was a Friday. I

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was supposed to go to a a um dinner

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party and the stock market closed at 3.

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I went home. started to change and I

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just sat down on the sofa and wondered

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why I wasn't happy.

Introduction to Kent Lou

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Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

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we welcome Kent Lou, the CEO of InTouch

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Credit Union. For more than three

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decades, Kent has led InTouch Credit

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Union, a member-owned financial

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cooperative serving members in all 50

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states [music] and more than 20

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countries. Under Kent's leadership,

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InTouch has built a national reputation

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for community focused banking and has

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[music] championed the fight against

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food insecurity by tying a portion of

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every loan payment and every [music]

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debit card swipe to feeding families in

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the communities they serve. Kent leads

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from a posture of stewardship and

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humility, taking the blame when things

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go wrong, giving away the credit when

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things go right, and consistently

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putting the interests of the credit

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union members and his team ahead of his

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own. In this conversation, Kent and I

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talk about how to think about money and

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better understand how servant leaders

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should think about their finances.

Welcome and Initial Questions

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Kent, thank you for joining us on the

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Servant Leadership Podcast. You're

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welcome, Chris.

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I am so excited. Uh, we're going to talk

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all about your background, but before we

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do, we're sitting in a beautiful credit

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union building. What's the difference

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between InTouch Credit Union and

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something like a JP Morgan Chase Bank

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that somebody would walk into? Wow,

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that's that's

Credit Union Explanation

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we would spend the whole podcast talking

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about that, but simply uh a credit union

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is a notfor-profit cooperative that

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allows individuals to pull their monies

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together and provide financial services

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to each other.

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That's it. And believe it or not,

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there's there's there's because it's not

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a building. Um it there's a lot of

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overlap with with uh churches, believe

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it or not, because the you know church

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isn't a building, it's the people, it's

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the congregation. Well, credit union

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isn't a isn't a building, it's the it's

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the people, but it's trying to and

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because of our cooperative status, our

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members, the customers that we serve are

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the owners of the entity.

Credit Union Benefits

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So, uh for that privilege, uh uh we are

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not for-profit. Uh but we still have to

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earn enough to make sure that we are

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fiscally sound. We pay for the

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government deposit insurance, those

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sorts of things. But for the most part,

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we always try to put the interest of the

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membership before the interest of the

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institution

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before the interest of any individual uh

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uh constituent. And that's the big

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difference.

Choosing Credit Unions

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Wow. So, why would somebody choose to

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bank with a credit union instead of like

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a Chase?

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I don't know why anyone would not choose

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to bank with a credit union because

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there are some already built-in

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benefits. For instance, there uh is a

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federal law that no credit union can

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charge more than 18% interest on any

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kind of loan ever. So, for instance, our

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credit cards are maxed at 17.99.

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So why anyone would have a credit card

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that pays that you pay 20 25 30 35%

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beats me. But I still think we're the

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best kept secrets in sliced bread. Yeah.

Credit Union Movement

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You know, collectively if you take all

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4,500 credit unions in the country and

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pull our assets together, we would only

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make up about seven cents out of every

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dollar there is in the United States.

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And the top four

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uh financial institutions make about

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7075 cents of every dollar.

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So it truly is a David and Goliath kind

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of thing.

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It feels like the movement is growing

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though. Is that true?

Credit Union Growth

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Well, [snorts]

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um I would that's probably true from the

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from the sense of the number of US

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consumers we have as members of credit

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unions is probably is higher than it's

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ever been. But in terms of share of

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wallet, credit unions collectively about

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20 25 years ago only had seven cents out

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of every deposit in the United States.

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And 20 25 years later, we still only

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have about seven cents out of every

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dollar in the United States.

Personal Journey

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Wow. So your journey to get here, you've

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been in credit unions a long time. Like

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over 30 years.

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Long time. That's correct.

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Talk about what it was like, how you got

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into this, why you got into it, and what

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it's been like.

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It's interesting. I I I I'm a degreed

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accountant. I started my career that way

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and just uh didn't like it very much.

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And I um I um uh eventually ended up

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getting a job at Maril Lynch

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and did that for almost a decade. Not

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quite. But I it occurred to me one

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growing up in a large family and

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relatively poor uh and being a very

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immature Christian at the time uh I

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thought that if I made more money it

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would solve all of my problems or it

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would solve a bunch of my problems. And

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I ended I got to a point in my career

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where I was making more money than I

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ever thought was possible

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and to the point where I was even

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financially taking care of my mother and

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my and some of my brothers and sisters.

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And I remember one day I'll never forget

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it. I was uh it was a Friday. I was

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supposed to go to a a um dinner party

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and the stock market closed at 3. I went

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home and started to change and I just

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sat down on the sofa and wondered why I

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wasn't happier

Realization and Change

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and and I ended up not going. I ended up

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in fact staying home that whole weekend

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and realized that,

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you know, something was sorely missing

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and it had nothing to do with finance.

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It had to do with my walk with God. And

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so from that point on, I realized that

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um

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uh making the wealthy wealthier, making

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companies

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financially more sound wasn't

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uh

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wasn't motivational for me anymore. Mhm.

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And so one of my very best friends

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was working at a credit union

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and he said, "Kent, you ought to come

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work over here because we're looking for

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people with your kind of expertise." And

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I said, "Credit union? What's a credit

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union?" I didn't know. And so I went on

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the interview, I got the job, discovered

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about credit unions, and just fell in

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love with industry because it was a way

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for me to use my financial expertise and

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education to help people of modest means

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to help people finance mortgages and

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cars and first homes and pay for stuff

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and help them uh uh you know, put

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groceries on the table and things of

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that nature. And I thought, okay, this

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is a way that I can give back.

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And that was 1991, 199 1992. Haven't

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looked back.

Giving Back

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Wow. Well, I'm not sure if it's because

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of your faith [snorts] or because of the

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credit union business, but you've been

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able to do a lot of giving back. Uh I

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was reading some stuff you've done

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related to food insecurity.

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Mhm.

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And it's amazing some of the stuff

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you've done. Talk about like what led to

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that.

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That was interesting. You know, we a as

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CEO of a credit union, you get lots of

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requests for um assistance. You know,

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people want money from you. [laughter]

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Well, but for nonprofit assistance, can

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you help this charity? Can you help that

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charity? And you can't help them all.

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And so, I decided that um this needed to

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be not a Kent thing, but a credit union

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thing. So I decided to do a survey and I

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asked the I asked the staff and I said

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this is completely anonymous. It was a

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survey monkey anonymous survey and I

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said if we can only support three

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entities if we can only solve three

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problems. Give me your top three. Well,

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food insecurity was either number one,

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number two, or number three on 90% of my

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staff's list.

Food Insecurity Initiative

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And so I said, "Okay, that that resolves

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it for me." So I said, "Okay, then we're

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going to champion. We'll still support

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some other things here or there, but

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we're going to do our best to try to

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champion food insecurity." And it was

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right around the time of of COVID and we

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were seeing food lines like we hadn't

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seen in decades and so forth. And so the

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idea came that why we not only did we

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want to support this but we wanted to

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get the members we served involved. M

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so we came up with the idea of uh taking

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a portion a small portion of everyone's

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loan interest payment and a small

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portion of the interchange income that

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we get if a member uses a debit card and

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a credit card and we would put that

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aside for food security.

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Wow. And so it gave members an

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opportunity to say, "If I do business

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with InTouch Credit Union, I'm helping

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my community. I'm helping my fellow man

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put food on tables to put food in

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pantries and so yeah, we've we've given

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a few dollars away and that's been

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great."

Community Focus

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Wow. that you talk about the word

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community and

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I don't know if it's credit unions in

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general or if it's just inTouch but but

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you guys have a really strong community

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and it's not just here in North Texas

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it's like all around the country how do

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you make it feel like such a community

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bank even though you're spread out

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around the country

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well part of that is from our roots and

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you know InTouch credit union before we

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were in touch we were EDS credit union

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uh which is stands for electronic data

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systems Ross Perrell's country a company

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and they were very much about community

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and family and service and so uh uh a

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lot of our start a lot of the credit

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union start comes from that place but uh

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when uh HP uh purchased uh Inestouch

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credit union back in 2009 it wasn't it

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wasn't shortly after I got a call from

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general counsel that said you know we're

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we own that trademark now and we're

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going to retire So you guys have to call

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yourself something else. And so we

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thought about how we were going to do it

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and we looked at tons of names and the

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marketer that we worked at the time

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said, "Well, you guys try so hard to

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stay in touch with everybody that you

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know and and everybody that you serve."

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And we looked at that name and it wasn't

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available in this space and said, "Okay,

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well then we're just going to change our

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name to InTouch Credit Union." And so uh

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at the time of the acquisition uh EDS

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was like 103 104 on the Fortune 500 list

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had 125,000 employees worldwide. And so

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a lot of that constituency were members

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of the credit union. So uh EDS uh EDS

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had uh uh employees in all 50 states and

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20 foreign countries. We still have

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members in all 50 states and 20 foreign

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countries. couple dozen foreign

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countries. So, it was important for us

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to try to recognize that a credit union

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is not a building. It's a community.

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It's a group of

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people that have a lot of things in

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common that want to continue to serve

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and give back and make life better. And

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so, we've tried really hard to continue

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that uh to to continue that tradition.

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And so even though um um uh EDS isn't in

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existence anymore, the idea of community

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is still strong with this colle this

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collection of members. So, we've

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continued to try to make in investments

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in physical communities that we're in

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because we still have branches in uh

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Detroit suburbs and in Las Vegas and in

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uh North Texas, but we also leverage

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technology to try to communicate in a

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way to keep that community presence. H I

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mean when [clears throat] I walked in

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this morning I said to you it it's a

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beautiful facility first of all but then

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I was impressed by the tech and you're

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like oh that's old tech like we've we've

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had that for over a decade and to me I

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was like I've never seen this. How are

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you thinking about technology? Like it

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feels like it's moving faster than ever

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with AI and everything. How does a a

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credit union think about tech?

Technology in Credit Unions

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Well uh how a credit union thinks about

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tech and how we think about [laughter]

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tech aren't isn't necessarily the same.

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there uh there are some credit union and

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we don't try to be uh bleeding edge when

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it comes to technology but one of the

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things that we recognize is the fact

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that um uh technology is coming

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whether or not we want to accept it or

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not. So we either have a choice that we

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can lean in and embrace it and look for

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those particular ways of being that

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represent a critical mass of adoption or

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represent the kind of idea that uh this

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would make it easier for us more

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convenient to serve the members that

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we're trying to serve. And so part of

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our way of being is trying to take a

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look at what makes sense especially

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given the fact that we still have to

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compete with entities like Chase and BA

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and city and wells and so forth. So how

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we can kind of be the best of both

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worlds kind of uh still have an intouch

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personalized feeling without necessarily

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being in person. So we are looking for

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technology and looking for uh for ways

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to looking for technology uh to do that.

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Uh you know if you think about

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technology from uh history standpoint

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there's always been innovation whether

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it was from the plow to the tractor from

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the stage coast to the motorized vehicle

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uh from trains to airplanes. There's

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always been advancements. And it's lit

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and it and it typically takes a while

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before our critical mass accepts it, but

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once they do, it's you know, like

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lightning speed. So, uh uh uh no

0:15:36
disrespect to the company, but you know,

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one of the things that my staff hears me

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say all the time is that I don't want to

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be the last Blockbuster. I don't want to

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be the last entity that's holding on to

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that oldtime traditional the way it was

0:15:50
for you is the way it has to be. You

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know, I want to be able to recognize

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that um uh we have to be relevant. You

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know, in fact, one of the things I share

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with our board of directors is I said,

0:16:05
unlike a lot of the certificates that we

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um get our members to invest in, uh

0:16:13
credit unions, uh do not have a maturity

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day.

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We were designed to run into perpetuity.

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And so

0:16:23
having that mindset, realize that I'm

0:16:26
just the current steward in place that

0:16:29
is responsible for managing this

0:16:31
institution until the next CEO and the

0:16:35
next generation comes along. So I need

0:16:37
to be very faithful to that.

Stewardship and Money

0:16:39
Wow.

0:16:40
And technology is it has to be a big

0:16:42
part of that.

0:16:43
You talk about the idea of you're just

0:16:45
the current steward. um talk about how

0:16:48
you think about money personally, you

0:16:50
know, because I know you're coming at

0:16:51
this from a faith standpoint as well.

0:16:53
I am. uh money. Uh it it's interesting

0:16:56
you would say that uh because my

0:16:59
relationship with money changed

0:17:03
somewhat

0:17:04
with my relationship in my faith

0:17:08
because um uh uh about uh a really good

0:17:13
friend and co-orker about oh probably 20

0:17:16
years ago

0:17:18
asked me

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um

0:17:22
uh if I tithed and if I did I tithe on

0:17:25
the gross or the net. [laughter]

0:17:27
And I said, "Well, absolutely. I tithe

0:17:29
and I tithe on the net." And she said,

0:17:31
"Oh, that's not biblical." I said, "What

0:17:33
do you mean? I can't I as soon as I get

0:17:36
it, I give." And they said, "You aren't

0:17:37
putting God first. You're putting the

0:17:38
government first." And he she said, "Do

0:17:40
me a favor. Go ask your pastor this

0:17:42
weekend uh when you go to church." So, I

0:17:44
asked my pastor, and he said, "Well, I'm

0:17:47
not going to give you an answer, but he

0:17:49
gave me a Bible and three references."

0:17:51
Said, "I want you to do the research

0:17:53
yourself." And when I did the research,

0:17:55
I was like, "Oh, man.

0:17:57
He, you know, she's right. You know, if

0:18:00
I tithe on the net, I'm letting the

0:18:02
government be first in line."

0:18:04
And so I decided at that particular

0:18:07
time, uh, uh, no, I should be tithing on

0:18:10
the gross. And so my pastor I had at the

0:18:12
time said, "Well, would you share that

0:18:14
lesson with the congregation?"

0:18:16
And I'm thought and I've never been in

0:18:18
front of a congregation. And I'm like,

0:18:19
"Well, um,

0:18:22
yes." And so he and he wanted me to do

0:18:24
it on watch night on New Year's Eve. You

0:18:26
know, we had a special service for New

0:18:27
Year's Eve. I'm thinking, I have no idea

0:18:30
how I'm going to how I'm going to bring

0:18:32
this subject up because, you know,

0:18:36
church growers and money is a really

0:18:38
interesting thing. I I don't know how

0:18:40
pastors do it, but quite frankly, but um

0:18:44
my uh my sister make it to try to make

0:18:47
long story short, my sister invited me

0:18:49
to Thanksgiving and she had three small

0:18:52
kids at the at the time and and uh I uh

0:18:55
I was single at the time and I said,

0:18:57
"Yeah, I'll go." And so I went and had a

0:18:59
great time. Didn't expect to have a

0:19:00
great time.

0:19:01
And so she said, "The kids had such a

0:19:03
great time with you. Would you come back

0:19:05
for Christmas?" And so I did. I went

0:19:07
back for Christmas. And then out on

0:19:09
Christmas day, my niece and nephew, they

0:19:12
were like uh 5, three, and two at the

0:19:15
time, they came over and said, "Uncle

0:19:16
Kent, there's a gift for you. Uh uh

0:19:18
there's a gift for you under the tree."

0:19:19
I said, "No, there's no gift." And my

0:19:20
sister said, "No, there's a gift for you

0:19:21
under the tree." Sure enough, there is a

0:19:23
gift to Uncle Kent. So, I opened it and

0:19:26
it was a a old pair, worn pair of

0:19:30
leather gloves. And it was cold. I was

0:19:32
living in Indiana at the time. It was

0:19:34
cold. And I put them on and I said,

0:19:36
"These fit perfectly. Thank you so much.

0:19:38
And the kids hugged me and I hugged them

0:19:39
and so forth. I said, "Wow, I can't

0:19:41
believe how perfectly these fit." And

0:19:43
and and

0:19:45
I said, "You know, I had a pair of

0:19:47
gloves like this at one point in time. I

0:19:48
lost them." My sister said, "I she said,

0:19:50
I know those are yours. You left them

0:19:51
here at Thanksgiving." [laughter]

0:19:53
And the very first thought that came in

0:19:55
my head was, "Well, but that's no gift.

0:19:58
You're just giving me back what I

0:19:59
already owned."

0:20:00
And I thought, "Bingo."

0:20:02
It didn't occur to me, but that's, you

0:20:04
know, God owns everything. M

0:20:06
and so from that point on

0:20:09
it placed in my heart that there is no

0:20:12
uh limit to his abundance.

0:20:14
And so if I just give and give and

0:20:18
interesting I thought okay well I'm just

0:20:19
going to give until it hurts. And

0:20:21
unfortunately or fortunately depending

0:20:23
on how you look at it [laughter]

0:20:25
the more I gave the more he gave me. And

0:20:29
the more I gave from that the more he

0:20:31
gave me. And it's just worked out that

0:20:33
way. And I thought, "Okay,

0:20:35
okay, okay." And so it continues to work

0:20:37
out that way. The more and more he

0:20:39
gives, the and so the more obedient I

0:20:43
try to be, the more he puts on me. And

0:20:46
so,

0:20:47
uh, it's just

0:20:49
it's it it's just evolved to that.

Servant Leadership

0:20:52
I love that. Uh, that's a really cool

0:20:54
story. And it just like paints a clear

0:20:56
picture of what that looks like, too. I

0:20:58
love the physical example.

0:20:59
Yeah. So, it just it's okay. Okay. just

0:21:02
give and give and give and give and

0:21:04
give.

0:21:04
Yeah. One of the things that um we talk

0:21:07
about a lot is servant leadership,

0:21:09
right? And and some of the things that

0:21:11
I've read about what people say about

0:21:13
you that have worked with you, which is

0:21:15
always dangerous. I'll preface.

0:21:16
[laughter] Uh but but they talk about

0:21:18
you and literally use the word servant

0:21:20
leadership, which I find surprising in a

0:21:24
credit union or banking kind of world.

0:21:25
Like that's not normal language, I would

0:21:27
think. uh talk about what servant

0:21:30
leadership has looked like for you in

0:21:31
the CEO role.

Leadership Philosophy

0:21:33
Well, uh it's interesting. Um

0:21:37
uh one of the things I remember

0:21:40
uh oh about 30 years ago I was CFO at a

0:21:44
credit union in Indiana and we had a

0:21:47
break room that uh um in the facility

0:21:52
that we had that had two entrances. one

0:21:55
that went into the kitchen and one that

0:21:58
went into where the seating area was,

0:22:00
but they were connected. And so one

0:22:02
morning I went into

0:22:05
the kitchen area to get a cup of coffee

0:22:08
and I could hear two employees talking

0:22:11
on the other side and I heard one of

0:22:13
them say, "You know that there's an

0:22:15
opening in Kent's area and I'm going to

0:22:17
and I'm going to apply for it." They

0:22:19
said, "Why are you going to do that?"

0:22:20
And I couldn't help but stay. I

0:22:22
[laughter] wanted a year. He said,

0:22:24
"Because, well, think about it. He's

0:22:26
always willing to support. He He

0:22:29
supports his team. He takes all the

0:22:33
blame for anything that goes wrong. He

0:22:36
gives you all the credit for anything

0:22:38
that goes right. He's willing to let you

0:22:41
learn as much as you want to learn. Why

0:22:43
wouldn't anybody want to work for that?"

0:22:45
And I felt embarrassed, so I just kind

0:22:46
of snuck back out the way I went in. And

0:22:49
I thought about it and I said, you know,

0:22:51
I didn't know that that's what I did,

0:22:53
but that is a a a good way of being.

0:22:56
That I was fortunate enough that I've

0:22:59
had uh leaders that I've worked for that

0:23:02
led that way and I've had leaders that I

0:23:04
work for that didn't lead that way. And

0:23:06
I've thought, you know what, if if I

0:23:08
ever get an opportunity to be in

0:23:09
leadership, I want to be that kind of

0:23:12
leader. So, I still try to do that

0:23:13
today. I try to take the blame for

0:23:16
everything that goes wrong. I try to

0:23:17
give credit for everything that goes

0:23:18
right. I try to delegate as much as I

0:23:21
possibly can. I try to um um um uh share

0:23:28
as much as I can because I I I it

0:23:31
occurred to me uh oh probably I don't I

0:23:36
don't know when it it occurred to me but

0:23:39
um unless I live to be

0:23:47
I have to acknowledge that I've got more

0:23:49
highway behind me than in front of me.

0:23:51
Yeah.

0:23:52
So why take it? My responsibility is to

0:23:56
give as much as I possibly can.

Team and Leadership

0:23:59
And so from a leadership standpoint, and

0:24:02
you know, it it's interesting. I've I've

0:24:05
uh I' I've got some uh staff that have

0:24:09
worked for me that don't consider me a a

0:24:12
very good leader at all. I have some

0:24:15
that consider

0:24:17
that really like this this particular

0:24:20
leadership style. Uh and I've got

0:24:23
everything in between. Only thing I can

0:24:26
try to do is stay faithful.

0:24:28
And the best leader I know

0:24:32
that I've ever heard of chose to be a

0:24:35
servant.

0:24:37
And so that's the approach that I wanted

0:24:40
to take. M

0:24:42
when you think through like your team,

0:24:45
you've got a lot of pressure on your

0:24:47
shoulders. This is a big organization.

0:24:50
Uh I even read a few years ago was

0:24:53
ranked in a certain category was ranked

0:24:55
the number one credit union in the

0:24:57
country. Uh and

0:24:59
we had that spot at one point time a

0:25:01
long time ago. But

0:25:01
like you have a lot of pressure here and

0:25:03
you're surrounded with great leaders.

0:25:06
How do you choose who gets to be in

0:25:07
these other leadership seats?

Choosing Leaders

0:25:09
Oh, that's a good question. Well, the

0:25:11
the interesting thing is that the uh

0:25:15
we're somewhat of a an anomaly that the

0:25:19
individuals in the leadership ranks here

0:25:21
are kind of long in the tooth.

0:25:23
Uh I've had a lot of folks that have

0:25:26
come and have refused to leave. So, you

0:25:29
know, the average tenure of my seuite

0:25:32
staff is probably in the 15 20 year

0:25:35
range. M

0:25:36
um uh and I've been a part of great

0:25:39
teams and I've not been a part of great

0:25:41
teams and and

0:25:44
and the interesting thing is that when

0:25:47
you're part of one,

0:25:50
especially when you haven't been a part

0:25:52
of of team great teams at a time, you

0:25:56
recognize it and you really appreciate

0:25:58
what you have. And so one of the things

0:26:01
I would like to think is that my staff

0:26:04
really appreciates what what we have

0:26:07
here and so they refuse not to they

0:26:10
refuse to leave. The other thing is that

0:26:13
I try to pay my staff really really well

0:26:15
because they work really hard and they

0:26:19
um uh put the interests of their staffs

0:26:23
first and the membership first because

0:26:25
the the the thing that we've tried to I

0:26:27
I've tried to instill is the best way to

0:26:31
be a good leader is to put everybody

0:26:34
else's interest first. M

0:26:37
uh regardless how hard it is, regardless

0:26:39
of how difficult it is, is try to put

0:26:42
and and your your constituencies always

0:26:46
don't see it that way, you know,

0:26:48
especially if they when something is

0:26:51
done wrong to them

0:26:54
and and you see it well, they want to

0:26:58
see the punishment, you know. of all I

0:27:00
will I I firmly believe that you praise

0:27:05
in public you be critical in private

0:27:08
and so uh none of my staff will see will

0:27:13
ever see me spike the football and drill

0:27:17
someone down in public. I don't think

0:27:19
that does the body any good.

0:27:22
Uh and so I never do that. Well, there

0:27:25
are some individuals that believe if

0:27:29
they don't see it, it didn't happen.

0:27:32
And I've shared, I said, well, you know,

0:27:34
you have to trust. You have to have

0:27:36
faith, but not blind faith because some

0:27:38
have some have have mistakenly just

0:27:42
taken that trust thing too far and said,

0:27:44
well, no one's asking for blind faith.

0:27:46
That that doesn't make any sense. But at

0:27:50
some point in time you do have to give

0:27:53
some level of trust of those around you

0:27:56
and you look for evidence that it's you

0:28:00
know things are happening and so

Leader Transition Handling

28:02
I've tried to share that okay well you know

28:05
that leader isn't here anymore you know

28:07
and when a leader chooses to leave

28:10
whether it's voluntary involuntary we

28:13
always wish them well we always thank

28:14
them for their service and their

28:15
contribution to the organization and I

28:18
never ever will spike the

28:20
and and and say, "Well, they left

28:22
because of this or they were terminated

28:24
because of this." But if you're if

28:26
you're

Coaching and Discipline

28:27
cognit cognitive enough and you will

28:31
take a look at the 15,000 foot level,

28:35
you will see that coaching and and

28:39
discipline things are going on, but

28:42
you're not going to see it. If you're

28:43
the kind that know you have to see it,

28:45
well,

28:49
you're not going to see it here. At

28:51
least not that public dressing down that

28:54
you hope to see because you would never

28:55
want that done to you.

Expectations of Leaders

28:57
Everybody says, "Well, you wouldn't want

28:58
that done to you. Why would you want me

29:00
to do that to someone else, especially

29:02
your leader when your leader needs

29:04
coaching?" You know, it's kind of like

29:06
um in some it's not analogous, but it's

29:10
some instance

29:12
uh uh being a parent. Every child

29:15
expects or has this assumption that

29:18
their parent is perfect until they

29:19
realize they aren't,

29:21
you know. Um um uh and uh

Grace in Leadership

29:27
you know, once that happens, well then

29:29
there's a different dichotomy that goes

29:31
on in those relationships. Well, most

29:34
employees have this expectation that

29:37
their leader, their supervisor is always

29:40
supposed to be correct, is always

29:43
supposed to do things the right way.

29:44
Well, we're human. None of us do things

29:46
the right way all the time, most of the

29:49
time. And so, why have that? But there's

29:52
that expectation. And so, I try to lead

29:56
from a position of grace given how much

29:58
grace I've gotten. Uh, and um, I think

30:03
it, you know, folks stick around.

Prioritizing Education

30:06
Yeah. One of the things I'm impressed

30:08
with is you've been in this space for a

30:10
long time, over 30 years.

30:12
Mhm.

30:12
But it's not enough to just be in this

30:14
space. You've prioritized some different

30:16
education milestones personally, even

30:19
throughout your career. Why Why

30:22
prioritize education when it seems like

30:24
from the outside you've already made it,

30:26
like you don't need the education? I've

30:28
I I um there's there's always room for

30:33
learning. There's always room for

30:35
growth. Uh I never ever want to stop

30:37
growing. In fact, there was a um uh I

30:41
heard a pastor once say that uh and I

30:45
never forget I don't remember his name,

30:47
but I'll never forget it. He said that

30:51
the Bible was

Continuous Learning

30:55
shallow enough that you will never

30:57
drown, but is deep enough that you will

31:00
never touch the bottom.

31:02
H, that's good.

31:03
And I thought about that. I thought, "Oh

31:05
my goodness." And so, how much more, you

31:08
know, uh, you know, I thought I knew it

31:12
all when I was 25 and then I turned 30

31:15
and thought, "Oh my goodness." And then

31:17
and and even at the age that I am now,

31:20
you know, I'm 67 now and there is still

31:23
so much I don't know. There is still so

31:26
much for me to learn.

31:28
And um and so I still want to get

31:32
better. I there are you know the in fact

31:34
the biggest struggle that I've been

31:37
having lately is convincing myself that

31:43
there is more contribution for me to

31:46
make

Ongoing Contribution

31:46
and that it's not time for me to ride

31:50
off into the sunset yet. And so, and I,

31:54
you know, and I have all of those clues,

31:56
you know, you know, Moses at 80 and and

31:59
all of those sorts of things, but just

32:02
recognizing that I'm still a work in

32:05
progress. I'm still

32:08
not where I would like to be. My faith

32:10
still isn't as strong as I would like to

32:13
be. Um uh um you know I'm currently

32:17
reading a new book uh and I don't know

32:19
how new it is but it's a u uh Andy

32:23
Stanley book called Deep and Wide about

32:25
how to church the unchurch and things of

32:27
that nature and and and and uh uh uh my

32:32
pastor's office shared it with me and so

32:34
I'm about halfway through but there is a

32:36
there's a part in that book that talks

32:38
about um u uh this particular

Belief and Trust

32:44
uh woman uh who [clears throat] is uh

32:48
declaring her faith and she's describing

32:51
what changed for her. And she was

32:55
listening to one uh uh one of the

32:57
associate pastors sermon and said it

32:59
didn't dawn on her until she realized

33:01
there's a difference between

33:05
having a belief in God and believing

33:08
God.

33:10
And it was all about faith and trust.

33:11
And I thought, even at this age, there's

33:15
still something for me to learn. There's

33:17
even at this age, there's still a level

33:21
of belief and a level of trust and a

33:24
level of relationship that I haven't

33:27
gotten to yet

33:29
and so I'm still trying.

Educational Pursuits

33:32
Wow. And I know it was like in your 30s

33:34
probably where you went to get your MBA

33:36
and later you started the PhD process.

33:39
like you you've really prioritized this.

33:42
Interesting. I but I didn't finish my

33:44
PhD process. Yeah. I was almost I I was

33:47
almost through it and uh my wife was

33:51
having some maladies.

33:53
Still do still does

33:55
and we have a special needs son, my

33:57
youngest son. And between uh being there

34:02
for my family and the demands here at

34:05
work

34:06
and my PhD program, I was only sleeping

34:08
like three, four hours of sleep a night.

34:11
And I just couldn't do it. And something

34:14
had to give. And when I looked at my

34:16
responsibilities,

34:17
what had to give was my PhD. And it it

34:21
was a PhD. I was getting a PhD in uh

34:25
organizational design and leadership.

34:26
And I was focused specifically on

34:28
servant leadership

PhD Decision

34:29
uh because I was interested. However, I

34:32
got into the program for a biased

34:34
reason. I wanted to I I wanted to do a a

34:39
doctrinal study on how some individuals

34:43
end up in CEO roles

34:46
that when you look at their

34:50
value proposition

34:52
probably never should have been in that

34:54
role. I mean, that was the bias that I

34:56
was coming from, but I just wanted to

34:59
learn more about leadership and being a

35:02
servant and all of those things. And

35:04
then it just rested home and I said,

35:06
"Okay, you currently have leadership

35:09
responsibilities."

35:10
And you're right, your CEO, you know, be

35:12
getting your PhD isn't going to,

35:16
you know, you're not going to become

35:17
king. You know, you're not going to be,

35:18
you know, there's there's there there's

35:20
no other wrong hire than being CEO of

35:23
organization. And I thought, you know

35:25
what? Um, I can continue to learn

35:28
without that degree and because my

35:30
family needs me and this organizational

35:32
need needs me. So, I stopped. Now, I

35:35
still hope to go back and finish it at

35:38
some point in time,

Current Responsibilities

35:39
but um with all of the things that are

35:43
going on in the world today and the kind

35:46
of um um shape that the country is in

35:50
financially and the pressures on

35:52
financial institutions and so forth, um

35:55
there's no time. I'm still in that space

35:58
where

35:59
uh between my contributions to my

36:02
family, my contributions to the credit

36:04
union and my contributions to my new

36:07
church, there's just no time for me to

36:11
go back to that PhD program.

36:13
Yeah. But still exciting for sure.

36:15
It's still it's still because I'm I'm

36:17
still learning. I can I I I I can learn.

36:21
I can continue to learn and grow with

36:27
having the

Credit Union Business Model

36:29
ego of that PhD behind my name. I can

36:32
still do that.

36:33
Yeah. Well, so explain at the high level

36:36
of a credit union because people

36:37
obviously are familiar with banks. A lot

36:40
of people may or may not know credit

36:41
unions, but talk about the business

36:43
model. You talk about it being a

36:44
nonprofit. there's still a business

36:46
model behind it to keep it functioning.

36:48
So talk about how is money made at a

36:50
credit credit union?

36:52
Money is made at the credit union uh one

36:55
of a couple of ways. You know there are

36:56
only there are only three types of way

36:58
to make money in the world and that is

37:02
you have money you lend it to someone

37:04
they pay you back with interest. That's

37:06
one way. You own something

37:10
you sell it at some point in time for

37:12
more than what you paid for it. You make

37:15
money that way or you do a combination

37:17
of both.

37:18
Those are the only three ways.

37:20
[laughter] For a credit union, credit

37:22
union makes money by

37:25
lending money to members at a rate that

37:29
is higher than we pay members

37:33
uh to keep their money here on deposit.

37:35
So there's a spread between what we pay

37:37
on savings accounts and checking

37:39
accounts and CDs versus what we charge

37:43
members for uh loans for cars and credit

37:47
cards and mortgages.

37:49
Uh that's one way. Uh another way is

37:52
through fees that we charge for

37:55
services, you know. So, um, uh, for

37:58
instance, if you, um, uh, rent a safe

38:02
deposit box from us, there's a fee for

38:05
that. If you, um, use your debit card,

38:10
there's a interchange fee, and that's

38:12
the kind of a guaranteed fee. That is a

38:14
difference between, um, uh, how much

38:19
you, the member pays for something

38:21
versus how much the business get.

38:23
There's a small interchange there. and

38:26
financial institutions that uh provide

38:30
that card gets a little portion of that

38:32
to cover to cover their cost and fraud

38:35
and and make income that way. And then

38:38
if you have excess deposits, so you

38:41
can't, you know, in fact regulate

38:44
regulators

38:45
frown on you depositing or lending every

38:49
dollar that you have in deposit because

38:50
they wants you to keep something back in

38:52
reserves. So, typically credit unions uh

38:55
take those reserves and invest them into

38:59
treasury bills or treasury bonds or

39:01
something of that nature and you earn

39:03
interest on it. And the interest that

39:05
you earn is typically a little bit more

39:07
than you're paying on those deposits and

39:09
savings accounts and so forth. Those are

39:11
primarily the ways that credit unions

39:13
earn money. and the president the the

39:15
the primary way that uh banks made money

39:19
well until GlassSteagall fell but that's

39:21
a whole different conversation but um

39:24
and so that's basically what we do so

39:27
what we try to do because we're not

39:30
forprofit collective is that there's not

39:33
a profit and then a profit on top of our

39:36
profit or return that we have to make to

39:39
satisfy our bank stockholders

39:42
because we don't have any stockholders

39:44
the members of their deposits owns the

39:47
credit union. So, so therefore we have

39:50
an incentive, a financial incentive to

39:53
pay as much on deposits as we possibly

39:55
can because we don't have stockholders

39:57
that we have to satisfy or or venture

40:00
capitalists that we have to satisfy or

40:03
or we try to lend money as with at rates

40:08
as small as we possibly can to be able

40:11
to pass those savings along. But we

40:14
still have to earn enough to cover our

40:17
cost

40:18
to pay our government deposit insurance

40:21
and to set aside for rainy days.

40:25
Mhm.

40:25
Uh that's basically it.

Interest Rate Differences

40:27
Talk about the difference between um

40:30
maybe what a typical publicly traded

40:33
bank might be giving somebody on a

40:35
savings account compared to how you view

40:37
what to give a savings account or some

40:40
of the interest differences. like how

40:42
big of a difference are you talking?

40:43
Well, uh typically it it varies depend

40:46
upon financial institution.

40:48
Okay.

40:48
Uh typically on average the average cost

40:52
of funds of a credit union is probably

40:56
somewhere between

40:58
10 and 50 basis points which is a tenth

41:01
of a percent or half a percent greater

41:03
than what your publicly traded uh uh

41:07
bank will pay. And but uh most of it is

41:10
on the income side. Most of it is that

41:13
the interest that we charge for loans.

41:16
Uh part of it is because of regulatory

41:20
caps, user recaps. Part of it is just

41:22
because we don't have a quarterly EPS

41:26
uh requirement that we have to meet that

41:29
publicly traded companies do. um uh

41:32
there's certain uh EPS levels that

41:35
stockholders want or venture capitalists

41:37
want to be able to get a proper return

41:39
on their money. So financial

41:41
institutions have to charge for that.

41:43
Uh but the biggest difference is on the

41:45
fee side and the loan interest income

41:47
side. That's the biggest difference.

41:50
That's interesting.

Loan and Fee Comparisons

41:51
So typically um uh automobile loans are

41:54
probably on average uh anywhere from a

41:57
half a percent to a percent and a half

42:00
cheaper. That makes a big difference

42:01
over time.

42:02
A big difference over time. Mortgage

42:03
rates are typically uh anywhere from a

42:07
half a percent to a percent difference,

42:09
cheaper in terms of mortgage rates.

42:12
Um uh and the fees are just not even

42:16
close. The the average credit union and

42:18
we're smaller than the average because

42:20
our members don't like fees at all. You

42:21
know, we typically uh on uh on on

42:25
average about uh 50 basis points or

42:30
about a half uh half a percent interest

42:32
in the fees that we charge. Most most

42:34
credit unions, the average credit union

42:36
is probably a percent. The average uh uh

42:41
public bank is probably somewhere

42:43
between two and two and a half%. their

42:46
their fee income is double, sometimes

42:49
almost triple what the average credit

42:50
union charges.

Emotional Financial Decisions

42:52
It's interesting because you're in a

42:54
position uh taking care of people's

42:57
money, which is probably one of their

42:59
top three most valuable things in their

43:02
life, something they think about every

43:03
day. What's something that you've

43:05
learned about people as it relates to

43:08
how they think about money that's

43:09
surprised you for good or bad? Well, the

43:13
the biggest the biggest thing is that

43:17
when it comes to money, you'd be

43:21
surprised how much emotion drives

43:24
decisions.

43:26
Much more so than logic. Much more so.

43:30
So, imagine you finally get to a point

43:32
that you can buy that car you could that

43:36
you've always wanted, new, used,

43:37
whatever, and you go into the dealership

43:39
and you buy it. Typically, you want the

43:43
car so bad that you really don't care

43:44
what the interest rate is. You just

43:46
sign, if they're willing to finance it

43:48
for you, you just sign it.

43:49
So, only after the fact do you figure

43:51
out, oh my goodness, what what am I

43:53
paying?

43:55
um that and it happens much more often

43:59
than you know, but a lot of times it is

44:03
really surprising how much emotion

44:06
drives financial decisions versus logic

44:09
in financial um uh uh um uh financial

44:16
stewardship logic. Well, the easiest

44:18
example I can give you is the lottery.

44:24
There is a greater mathematical because

44:27
I I I love statistics when I was in

44:30
college. You have a greater mathematical

44:32
chance of being struck by lightning

44:36
than you do winning the lottery.

44:38
Oh, I didn't know that.

44:40
Oh, yeah. But

44:42
millions and billions of dollars are

44:45
spent on lottery tickets

44:48
every single day

44:49
and every single year. But and and the

44:53
challenge is it's like a hole in one.

44:55
Somebody has you know it happens every

44:56
now and then. Somebody has to win you

44:58
know and so so you know it's not the

45:02
greatest investment

45:04
that you can make but that's probably

45:07
the most surprising thing is how much

45:10
emotion drives financial decisions.

Financial Education Efforts

45:13
That's really really interesting. Do how

45:16
much responsibility do you feel I I

45:19
would assume it's high in terms of

45:20
helping

45:22
maybe share that kind of wisdom or

45:24
knowledge with people like don't make

45:26
that decision like are you trying to

45:27
convince them or it's like out of what

45:29
you're allowed to do? I don't know.

45:30.
Yeah. Well, we try. In fact, um my staff

45:33
[clears throat] has asked me to uh uh uh

45:37
do do a new series and and and I've told

45:40
them that I would. But I even started an

45:42
educational series here called Chef

45:45
Louie. And and I'm wearing a a a chef's

45:50
hat and a great big phony white mustache

45:52
and and and a chef's and a and and and a

45:56
you know a a a chef's flock. And I do

45:59
these 60 90 second videos kind of

46:02
explain

46:04
uh Tik Tok videos explaining little

46:07
bitty small financial nuggets that can

46:10
save people tons of money especially

46:13
young people because uh the one thing

46:15
that I've discovered especially with

46:17
younger generations is that they have a

46:19
whole different concept of money than my

46:22
generation has or that middle generation

46:24
has. Uh um and so just trying to

46:30
educate them on little things that they

46:33
could do to save money. Uh because you

46:36
know th those old adages still prove

46:39
true. Uh you know Benjamin Franklin said

46:41
a penny saved is a penny earned. Uh uh

46:45
most individuals believe that in order

46:49
to

46:50
um uh um

46:54
retire on easy street, they need to hit

46:58
the lottery or make a big investment or

47:01
things of that nature. Uh not true. Most

47:05
people don't realize that 85 to 90%

47:10
of your retirement nest egg should be

47:13
monies that you save through your

47:15
lifetime,

47:16
not investments that not the investments

47:19
that your money has monies have earned

47:21
through your lifetime.

47:23
But most people don't think that. And so

47:26
um they tend to

47:29
live beyond their means in the short

47:32
term at the sacrifice of the long term.

Generational Money Views

47:35
Yeah. I I heard and I don't know if this

47:37
is true but I heard that my kids

47:40
generation will be one of the first

47:41
generations that is less wealthy than

47:44
their parents' generation before them.

47:46
Uh you talk about how young people um

47:49
have a different view of money. What's

47:50
an example where you see young people in

47:52
general just they they don't understand

47:54
money necessarily?

47:56
Uh well, you know, I still have a

47:58
problem with the whole $5 $6 Starbucks.

48:01
I got to have it every day. I [laughter]

48:04
I I you know, just just that just

48:07
the status.

48:08
Yeah. I I don't I don't know. But just

48:11
the you know one of the the the

48:13
conversations that I have with my sons

48:16
uh constantly is putting something away

48:20
for a rainy day. You know after you

48:21
tithe take another 10% stick it away for

48:24
a rainy day or another 15% stick away

48:26
for another for a rainy day and then uh

48:30
figure out a way to live well on what

48:33
you have.

48:35
uh but uh there is so much instant

48:39
gratification live for the moment today

48:42
and you know maybe I'm missing out on a

48:45
lot of life because I'm not living for

48:47
the moment I'm I'm living for tomorrow

48:51
you know and I'm planning you know I I

48:54
used to hear all the time as growing up

48:56
as a young man that people don't uh plan

49:01
to fail they fail to plan

49:03
and so I've always wanted to recognize

49:08
that um there is something you know in

49:14
fact one of the biggest fears I think

49:16
most

49:18
older Americans have today is outliving

49:22
their income

49:24
you know well the best way to do that is

49:27
to you know save and plan you know we in

49:31
fact we partner with a a a great company

49:35
called uh Silver that um we offered for

49:39
free for our members that you literally

49:42
can go into the program uh uh put in

49:46
where you live. Uh it will automatically

49:49
calculate social security, Medicare

49:51
costs, uh all of those costs in the

49:54
state and the city that you're living

49:56
in. And then you can put in all of your

49:58
assets, all of your income, your social

50:00
security, everything. and that it will

50:02
give you a number and that number will

50:04
tell you this is how long before your

50:07
money runs out.

Retirement Planning

50:08
Wow.

50:09
You know, so uh I am so conservative,

50:13
you know, that um I uh when when we

50:17
first offered it, I said, "Well, I'm

50:19
going to put all my stuff in there, you

50:20
know." And when I put all my stuff in

50:22
there and I am I I I said, "Okay, I told

50:25
my wife, we can live on this, you know,

50:27
we can make sure we live on this." And

50:29
my number was 137.

50:31
[laughter]

50:32
And my wife said, "See, we do not have

50:35
to live on bologn sandwiches when we

50:37
retire." So she said, "Let's put it, let

50:40
let's kind of not be really really poor

50:43
and live a little." And so I said,

50:45
"Okay." And so I relented and I put in,

50:49
you know, a fairly

50:52
meaningful kind of existence and things

50:55
of that nature. And she still said I was

50:56
being too conservative. And I said I put

50:58
in there the number dropped from 137 to

51:01
like 111. [laughter] And I thought okay

51:04
well and and so but then I've taken that

51:07
ooh that means we have more that we can

51:09
give.

51:10
Yeah.

51:10
There's more than you know out of our

51:13
own personal you know there there's

51:15
there's more sacrificial giving that we

51:18
can do. So we're we're we're we're

51:21
having that debate. We're we're we're

51:23
walking down that mile right now.

Rapid Fire Questions

51:25
I love that. All right. All right, I

51:26
want to finish with 10 rapid fire

51:28
questions. Okay,

51:29
just say the first thing that comes to

51:30
mind. No wrong answer.

51:32
Okay.

51:32
First person you think of when I say

51:34
servant leadership.

51:36
Oh, uh golly. Um

51:39
Jesus.

51:40
Five words that most describe you. Oh.

51:44
Um

51:49
trying

51:51
uh loyal

51:54
uh friend

51:56
um

52:00
uh

52:06
um

52:10
obedient.

52:12
Um,

52:14
and then trying again cuz that

52:16
[laughter] that that that one that's a

52:18
twofur.

52:19
All right. Favorite food.

52:21
Oh. Uh, probably pasta.

52:25
Uh, favorite author.

52:28
Oo. Um,

52:31
I don't know if I have a favorite

52:33
author, but uh because I typically read

52:36
for information. I don't read for

52:38
pleasure. Okay.

52:39
So, it's wherever I can get it.

52:41
All right. That's good. Favorite thing

52:42
to do in your free time?

52:44
Play golf.

52:45
All right. What's a surprising fact

52:47
about you?

52:48
I I still consider myself

52:51
I'm still my own worst enemy.

52:54
I still uh I still think I'm worse than

52:58
I than everybody tells me I am.

53:00
[laughter]

53:00
So, I am constantly trying to get

53:03
better.

53:04
All right. Favorite place you've been?

53:07
Ooh. Favorite place I've been?

53:10
favorite place I've been that's probably

53:15
uh uh New York City only because I was

53:17
there with my wife and my son and we saw

53:20
a few uh musicals on Broadway that we

53:24
just loved. It was great family time

53:25
together.

53:26
Love that. Uh where's somewhere in the

53:28
world that you want to go that you have

53:29
not been to yet?

53:31
The Pacific Northwest.

53:33
Oh wow. I've been uh I've been virtually

53:38
all over this country, but never

53:41
Washington State,

53:43
Oregon. I've never I've never ever been

53:46
to that part of the country.

53:47
Wow. Uh what's the best advice you've

53:50
ever received?

53:52
Um,

53:54
I I seem to remember

54:02
someone telling me once

54:05
that

54:08
there is

54:11
no no sin too big that God can't that

54:15
God can't handle. M

54:18
and so that coming from a sinful person

54:22
that's very comforting.

Importance of Servant Leadership

54:24
That's good. All right. And finally, a

54:26
podcast on servant leadership. Why

54:28
should people care about becoming better

54:30
servant leaders? Well, I

54:35
you know there's a there's uh this

54:39
secular belief that is based upon faith

54:44
that

54:48
when you give, you get more from it than

54:53
the recipient gives it. You know it's

54:55
like you know um when you give of your

55:00
time when you give of your effort

55:03
uh I think uh

55:07
most people are shocked

55:10
that especially if you are giving from a

55:13
place of true

55:16
um uh of uh of true wanting to give of

55:22
yourself.

55:23
how much you get in return.

55:26
And I think that from a leadership

55:29
standpoint, if you're willing to do that

55:33
and if you're willing to trust that,

55:36
um um you'd be surprised at what you get

55:40
in return. I remember we we we had a

55:43
staff meeting once. I'd probably been

55:45
CEO here probably about four or five

55:48
years or so, and I made a mistake. And

55:51
so in a staff meeting in front of all

55:53
the managers, I said, "Guys, I made a

55:56
mistake. I'm sorry." And this is the

55:58
mistake I made and I'll try not to do

55:59
that again. And I had a couple of my

56:01
managers at the time came up to me after

56:03
the fact said, "I can't believe you did

56:04
that. That was a mistake. You aren't you

56:07
when you're a leader, you're not

56:08
supposed to tell people that you made a

56:09
mistake." I said, "You don't think they

56:11
know. [laughter]

56:13
You don't think people realize when you

56:14
make a mistake?" I said, I think it

56:17
would be better acknowledging it because

56:20
it does two things. Number one, it

56:22
confirms for them that you're not human

56:23
and you're not perfect. It also creates

56:25
a space for them to know that they don't

56:27
have to be perfect.

56:29
And so it it took a while, but I think

56:32
those leaders eventually came, you know,

56:36
to came came to my came around to my way

56:39
of thinking

56:40
and said, you know, that I I thought

56:42
that was a mistake at the time, but no,

56:44
you're you're probably right. It is

56:46
better to lead by example and and and

56:49
say those sorts of things.

Podcast Closing

56:51
Wow. Well, Ken, thank you for sharing

56:53
your wisdom, being with us on the

56:55
podcast. This has been an absolute

56:56
pleasure. You're welcome.

56:58
And hopefully more people start banking

56:59
at credit unions.

57:00
I hope so.

57:01
Especially this one. What should people

57:02
do if they want to get in touch or

57:04
understand?

57:05
Just go to uh InTouch Credit Union uh

57:07
search us on Google or type in ITCU

57:10
forintouchcreditun.org

57:12
and uh look up membership because we can

57:15
serve anyone in the country.

57:17
Love it. Well, thank you.

57:18
You're welcome. Thank you, Chris.

57:20
Thank you for listening to this episode

57:22
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

57:25
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

57:27
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

57:29
below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit

57:33
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57:35
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57:36
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57:38
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Bonus Content

57:40
content.