00:00:00
We went on a second date for to get some

00:00:02
pizza. And during conversations

00:00:04
following that, she told me, you know,

00:00:06
Randy, I got to tell you something. And

00:00:08
I thought, she's going to tell me best

00:00:10
guy she's ever dated for sure.

00:00:11
[laughter] And she said, Randy, you're

00:00:14
going to hell. And what?

00:00:23
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

00:00:25
we welcome Randy Goulya, the president

00:00:27
of the Institute for Creation Research.

00:00:30
Randy leads ICR, one of the world's most

00:00:33
influential organizations dedicated to

00:00:35
biblical creation science. For more than

00:00:38
50 years, ICR has produced original

00:00:41
research, scientific publications, and

00:00:43
educational resources that have reached

00:00:46
millions of people, including through

00:00:47
the Discovery Center in Dallas. Randy

00:00:50
brings a rare set of credentials to the

00:00:52
work. Being both a medical doctor and a

00:00:55
professional engineer, he earned a

00:00:57
master of public health at Harvard,

00:00:58
served as a US Air Force flight surgeon,

00:01:01
and is the architect of the continuous

00:01:03
environmental tracking model, a

00:01:04
framework reshaping how Christians think

00:01:06
about adaptation and design in biology.

00:01:09
Join us as Randy talks about the case

00:01:11
for biblical creation, how Christian

00:01:13
leaders should think about the

00:01:14
intersection of faith and science, and

00:01:16
what it's like to lead one of the

00:01:17
country's most prominent creation

00:01:19
science organizations.

00:01:21
Randy, thank you for being on the

00:01:23
servant leadership podcast.

00:01:24
Yeah, thank you so much for the

00:01:25
invitation.

00:01:26
This this is such a special place. Uh

00:01:29
being at ICR, seeing the discovery

00:01:31
center, I found out about this like 3 or

00:01:34
4 months ago and got to meet you and I

00:01:36
was just like, we have to ask if you'd

00:01:37
be on the show. So, uh, this is special.

00:01:41
Um, share with us what is ICR? What is

00:01:45
the discovery center? And we'll get into

00:01:46
a whole lot of other stuff, too.

00:01:48
Great. Thanks for so much for coming out

00:01:50
and asking on that. ICR was actually

00:01:52
started in 1970 and it stands for the

00:01:56
Institute for Creation Research

00:01:58
and it was started as a reaction to the

00:02:01
the dominant thought of the day which

00:02:03
was evolutionary thinking and it was

00:02:05
pretty much taking over the thinking

00:02:08
inside the church too. There people were

00:02:10
thinking how can I work in evolutionary

00:02:12
thinking into Christianity and the the

00:02:15
two really don't fit with each other

00:02:17
very well. Evolutionary theory was was

00:02:19
built to be an a non-theistic view for

00:02:22
the origin of the universe and a because

00:02:25
it's kind of got a cosmological natural

00:02:27
selection view to it now and a

00:02:29
non-theistic view for the origin of life

00:02:31
and a non-theistic view for the

00:02:33
development of life. So it's hard to

00:02:35
work a non-theistic view into a theistic

00:02:37
view. Our founder Dr. Dr. Henry A.

00:02:39
Morris recognized that and he was an

00:02:41
engineer and he was at Virginia Tech at

00:02:44
the time and started ICR in San Diego,

00:02:47
California.

00:02:48
We were there for many years and did

00:02:50
some groundbreaking research

00:02:52
particularly in the area of geology and

00:02:54
researching Mount St. Helens as a model

00:02:57
for how you would explain worldwide

00:02:59
geology. The the flat layers and

00:03:02
trapping sediments very very quickly and

00:03:05
building up a lot of sediments in a very

00:03:07
very short period of time. That would be

00:03:09
a model for what would happen after a

00:03:10
worldwide flood.

00:03:12
And we stayed there for quite a few

00:03:14
years until we relocated to Dallas in

00:03:17
the mid 2000s. Um because mainly cost of

00:03:20
living. And once we once we got here,

00:03:23
you mentioned our discovery center. It

00:03:24
was always a goal to build a museum.

00:03:28
It's really an educational center to

00:03:30
teach people about the research that

00:03:32
we've done in the past and to meld it

00:03:36
with a solid biblical worldview and

00:03:39
bring in the gospel for them. So people

00:03:41
who are interested in the areas of

00:03:43
science and faith and how those two

00:03:45
relate to each other can turn to

00:03:48
icr.org. They can find thousands of

00:03:50
articles that we've written if they have

00:03:52
questions about things or they can learn

00:03:54
about our discovery center and plan a

00:03:55
trip the next time they're in the DFW

00:03:57
area.

00:03:58
Well, in the Discovery Center, you use

00:04:00
the word museum and that's that's for

00:04:02
sure the right word, but when I went

00:04:05
through it, it was way more than a

00:04:07
museum. It was so interactive. I mean,

00:04:09
even like, not to give it away, but like

00:04:12
the first room people go in, like

00:04:14
there's interactive video stuff going on

00:04:16
that I've never even seen happening on

00:04:18
the walls and and as people go through

00:04:20
it, I was excited for my family to go

00:04:22
through it. How How did that come to be?

00:04:24
Well, we wanted something that wasn't

00:04:26
boring. And

00:04:27
it definitely isn't boring,

00:04:29
right? It has to be educational, but we

00:04:31
didn't want it to be boring. So um there

00:04:33
are a lot of people out there who are

00:04:35
very very creative and they came up I

00:04:38
don't want to give away the the things

00:04:39
either. They came up with these good

00:04:41
interactive ways to get the message

00:04:43
across yet captivate attention and keep

00:04:47
you listening to what's actually

00:04:49
happening. And uh so it's you're right

00:04:52
it's it's I undersold it when I said

00:04:54
it's a museum. It's far more than a

00:04:56
museum. It's an educational center where

00:04:59
you your kids will be able to learn but

00:05:02
have a good time while you're doing it.

00:05:04
Wow. Okay. So, when people think about

00:05:07
ICR, when they think about the Discovery

00:05:09
Center and they hear you're running it,

00:05:11
they probably think, well, boy, Ry's

00:05:13
been a creationist his whole life. Uh,

00:05:16
he's probably been an extremely

00:05:18
conservative Christian his whole life

00:05:19
and all these things. Uh, that's not

00:05:21
really your story. Talk about your

00:05:23
journey to even end up here.

00:05:25
Right. No, that isn't my story in the

00:05:27
slightest. In fact, uh I I I was a young

00:05:32
man growing up in a home with wonder,

00:05:34
wonderful parents, but we never went to

00:05:36
church. Never I never heard the gospel.

00:05:39
None of those things were were a part of

00:05:41
my life in any way whatsoever. But I

00:05:44
love science and I followed the science

00:05:49
to use today's phrase. I was one, you

00:05:51
wouldn't have even had to tell me now,

00:05:53
follow the science. I I was one of those

00:05:55
who followed the science lockstock and

00:05:57
barrel. And when they told me that we

00:06:00
evolved from ape-like ancestors, I

00:06:02
bought it. I believed it. When they said

00:06:04
there was a natural origin of life

00:06:06
through some kind of experiment here

00:06:08
that sparked some gases, I believed it.

00:06:10
In fact, I thought, "Oh, this explains

00:06:12
how how life got going." So, I was a

00:06:15
true blue believer in in in science at

00:06:20
that time. But I I I I I didn't know

00:06:24
anything about the gospel. Nothing like

00:06:26
this. I met a gal in high school who

00:06:29
just caught my attention and I asked her

00:06:31
to go out on a date with me to go roller

00:06:34
skating. So I know people don't do that

00:06:36
these days, but that's what I wanted to

00:06:37
do. And I um I really wish she would go,

00:06:41
but she would just become a new

00:06:42
Christian. And her Sunday school teacher

00:06:44
told her she should only date

00:06:45
Christians.

00:06:46
But she's a new Christian, so she she

00:06:49
tossed out like a test. Well, I'll go on

00:06:51
a date with you if you come to church

00:06:53
with me. And she thought, well, if I say

00:06:56
yes, it's because I'm a believer. I said

00:06:58
yes because I thought this is a like a

00:07:01
guaranteed second date. You know, if I

00:07:03
mess up on Friday, I'll recoup on

00:07:05
Sunday.

00:07:06
Yeah.

00:07:06
And um so I went to church with her and

00:07:08
I heard the gospel

00:07:09
for the first time,

00:07:11
but it didn't register. But I asked her

00:07:14
for a second date. We went on a second

00:07:16
date for to get some pizza. And during

00:07:18
conversations following that, she told

00:07:20
me, "You know, Randy, I got to tell you

00:07:23
something." And I thought, "She's going

00:07:24
to tell me best guy she's ever dated for

00:07:26
sure." And she said, "Randy, you're

00:07:29
going to hell." And what? Where did this

00:07:33
come from?

00:07:33
Not a good date.

00:07:34
Yeah, I know that I've had bad dates,

00:07:37
but they didn't merit hell. And

00:07:39
[laughter] And so she explained um the

00:07:43
gospel, and I was pretty defensive. I

00:07:45
thought, well, I'm I'm really a pretty

00:07:47
good person. I'm a I'm I obey my

00:07:49
parents. I obey the law. I obey my

00:07:52
teachers, which was really true, but I

00:07:54
claimed it. And um over this kind of

00:07:58
conversation, over many, many weeks of

00:08:01
dating her,

00:08:02
the the truth that I was a sinner, that

00:08:05
I was under a penalty for that sin, that

00:08:08
I was under judgment, that came through

00:08:10
loud and clear. And eventually with some

00:08:14
additional witnessing and reading the

00:08:15
Bible that she gave me for graduation

00:08:17
from high school, I realized that, you

00:08:20
know, I couldn't merit salvation. I

00:08:23
couldn't earn God's favor by being a

00:08:26
good person and things. I needed to have

00:08:28
a righteousness that was given to me on

00:08:31
behalf of the work of the Lord Jesus

00:08:34
Christ on the cross on my behalf.

00:08:37
Uh and and that is when the light really

00:08:40
went on. There was a verse, for God made

00:08:42
him to be sin for us who knew no sin

00:08:45
that we might be made the righteousness

00:08:47
of God in him. Him being the Lord Jesus

00:08:51
Christ. And I saw this exchange and it

00:08:55
made sense. My sin to him, he paid it

00:08:57
his righteousness to me. And uh there

00:09:00
was a verse that really spoke to me

00:09:02
where the Lord Jesus said, "Truly, truly

00:09:03
I say unto you, he that hears my words

00:09:07
and believes on him that sent me has

00:09:09
everlasting life and will not come into

00:09:11
condemnation, but has passed from death

00:09:14
unto life." And I wanted that. I got

00:09:16
down on my knees and ask the Lord to

00:09:19
forgive my sin and to be my Lord and

00:09:20
Savior. All because that gal was

00:09:23
witnessing to me. And and now in about

00:09:26
eight days, we'll have been married 48

00:09:28
years. Wow. Well, and so you became a

00:09:31
Christian and you still were

00:09:35
not interested in creation and didn't

00:09:37
believe any of that. You still believe

00:09:39
the science, right?

00:09:40
Right. Exactly.

00:09:40
So, so how did that happen? That

00:09:42
transition over time.

00:09:44
Well, it was it was a transition, but it

00:09:46
was really kind of a fast transition.

00:09:49
I I felt the Lord was leading us into

00:09:51
ministry. We got married uh about a year

00:09:53
out of high school and we then I was in

00:09:56
engineering college and I transferred to

00:09:57
Moody Bible Institute

00:09:59
kind of like in your stomping grounds

00:10:01
right now in Chicago

00:10:03
and I still held to evolutionary

00:10:05
thinking and I thought you could you

00:10:07
could blend the two together and I would

00:10:10
believe it or not

00:10:11
I would argue with my fellow Moody

00:10:13
students for theistic evolution. It's

00:10:15
like I can't believe I did that. Um, and

00:10:19
I one day in the library I found the

00:10:22
free magazine that ICR still gives away

00:10:25
to this day over 50 years later called

00:10:28
Acts and Facts. And I said, "Oh, this

00:10:30
relates to science." So I took it back

00:10:32
to the cubicle. There were two articles

00:10:34
in it written very clearly by man named

00:10:38
Dr. Dwayne Gish. one on the natural

00:10:41
origin of life and he pointed out all

00:10:43
the flaws of that experiment which I

00:10:45
thought was just so conclusive and and

00:10:49
it it just that life can't start by

00:10:52
natural processes. It's just not going

00:10:54
to happen.

00:10:54
And then he had another article of why

00:10:56
when you find a fossil of a creature,

00:10:59
let's say it's a fossil shrimp, it looks

00:11:02
like a shrimp today.

00:11:03
You find a fossil ant looks like an ant

00:11:05
today. Fossil bat looks like a bat

00:11:07
today. And supposedly tens of millions

00:11:10
of years have passed, but they haven't

00:11:12
evolved one iota.

00:11:14
Now, slight little changes, but no

00:11:16
evolution. And I thought, I never

00:11:18
thought of that. And that was another

00:11:20
really good article. And really in that

00:11:22
cubicle at the library of Moody Bible

00:11:24
Institute, I thought, this is true. I've

00:11:28
been snookered [laughter] on this for

00:11:31
all these times. Wow.

00:11:32
I started to live for that magazine to

00:11:34
come and I knew the Lord was leading me

00:11:36
into creation science ministry and that

00:11:38
led to more and more education.

00:11:40
Wow. So talk about the more education

00:11:43
piece because even though you knew that

00:11:45
was a ministry, you get into this

00:11:46
ministry at some point. Maybe not here,

00:11:48
but uh your journey to get here has been

00:11:51
unbelievable from an academia

00:11:53
standpoint.

00:11:54
It was it was all under the advice of

00:11:57
mostly that man Dr. Dwayne Gish

00:11:59
who was the vice president of the

00:12:01
Institute for Creation Research at that

00:12:03
time.

00:12:04
But initially, this is before your day,

00:12:06
you could dial 411 and pick a real

00:12:10
operator picked up the phone and I said,

00:12:12
I like the phone number for Dr. Henry M.

00:12:14
Morrison in San Diego and I got it and I

00:12:17
called him.

00:12:18
Wow.

00:12:18
And I said, you know, I've got two years

00:12:20
of engineering education and I'm going

00:12:22
to graduate with a degree in theology

00:12:24
from Moody. I want to work for ICR. M

00:12:26
and he said, 'Well, good. Um, and now I

00:12:30
know every time I hear the word well. I

00:12:33
was like, oh, no. I said, it's a

00:12:35
technical degree, technical ministry.

00:12:37
You should go back and finish your

00:12:38
engineering degree. So, I reapplied to

00:12:40
South Dakota School of Minds.

00:12:42
Finished off my engineering degree. Uh,

00:12:44
I was desperate for money at the time. I

00:12:46
went into the Navy. They put me on

00:12:48
active duty while I was still in

00:12:49
college. Um and I was served as a civil

00:12:53
engineer in the Navy for almost a

00:12:55
decade. During that time talking with

00:12:57
Dr. Gish um I got my professional

00:13:00
engineering license and I called him

00:13:03
after about that time and I said no Dr.

00:13:06
Gish I got this degree from Moody and

00:13:07
I'm an engineer now and and I'm prof

00:13:10
professional engineer I want to work for

00:13:12
ICR.

00:13:13
He said well oh no

00:13:16
here we go again.

00:13:17
Here we go again. you really need to

00:13:19
know biology and you should get a

00:13:21
doctorate.

00:13:22
And I was like, oh, I don't know if I

00:13:24
want to start from scratch. That led to

00:13:26
the idea to go to medical school. And so

00:13:28
I went to medical school, University of

00:13:30
Minnesota, finished off the MD degree,

00:13:33
and I took an Air Force scholarship for

00:13:35
that. And then I went into the Air

00:13:37
Force, and the Air Force sent me to get

00:13:39
a masters in public health at Harvard.

00:13:41
And I went there because these are all

00:13:43
good credentials, and I'll learn some

00:13:46
things along the line.

00:13:48
So finally after I paid back all the

00:13:50
time for med school to the Air Force and

00:13:52
for the Harvard education, I called up

00:13:55
ICR. I said, 'Now look, I I've got this

00:13:59
degree in theology from Moody. I'm a

00:14:01
professional engineer. I'm licensed. I

00:14:03
went to medical school. I'm board

00:14:04
certified in aerospace medicine. I got

00:14:06
this degree from Harvard. I'd like to

00:14:07
work for you. And they said, "Sure. Um,

00:14:11
what's been taking you so long?"

00:14:13
And it was about 28 years from the first

00:14:16
time I called Henry Morris till I

00:14:18
started to work for ICR.

00:14:20
But from from a leadership standpoint,

00:14:23
the lesson learned was um first let the

00:14:26
Lord's calling dictate your decisions.

00:14:30
And so his calling in the creation

00:14:31
science ministry dictated go to this

00:14:33
school, go do this, do this. And he led

00:14:37
me along the way. And he eventually gave

00:14:40
me the desires of my heart.

00:14:42
But the path obviously wasn't a straight

00:14:45
line it went. But everything I learned

00:14:48
along the path has been very useful for

00:14:54
this ministry and particularly to be the

00:14:55
president of this organization. I was a

00:14:58
friendly person but I learned a lot of

00:15:00
people skills in medical school. I

00:15:03
learned to care in ways that I hadn't

00:15:06
cared before

00:15:08
um for these people by going to medical

00:15:11
school. And then all the time as a naval

00:15:13
officer and then as an Air Force

00:15:15
officer, you know, you picked up

00:15:17
leadership skills, you picked up

00:15:19
managerial skills, you picked up the way

00:15:22
to communicate a vision

00:15:24
to people and that's been valuable,

00:15:27
invaluable in this job all along the

00:15:30
way. So I got the education for creation

00:15:33
science but he was equipping.

00:15:36
Yeah. I would think this is a unique

00:15:38
organization to lead because you have a

00:15:40
lot of passionate people who you

00:15:42
interact with on every side of the

00:15:44
spectrum, right? You've got passionate

00:15:45
people who are like, "Oh, I fully buy in

00:15:47
and you guys aren't saying enough and

00:15:49
you probably have people who are so

00:15:51
convinced like you were uh at one point

00:15:54
in your life where it's like, hey, you

00:15:55
guys are crazy and this is just it's not

00:15:57
scientific." Uh what's it like trying to

00:16:00
lead well? Um in in that dichotomy

00:16:05
there is a dichotomy. You you summarized

00:16:07
it well. You know they be like oh you're

00:16:09
nuts and this isn't science. This is a

00:16:12
pseudocience on that. Well what what my

00:16:16
approach to them is also from that

00:16:18
background.

00:16:19
I don't I don't get mad. I I was in your

00:16:22
position. I thought like you. I I know

00:16:24
where it's coming from. But I also know

00:16:26
you're you're probably not really

00:16:29
studying the issues. You're probably

00:16:30
listening a lot to what other people

00:16:32
have told you. And if you get and you

00:16:35
dig in and I get a chance to talk with

00:16:38
them about some specifics, then I'll

00:16:41
almost always hear, "Well, nobody's ever

00:16:44
told me that before."

00:16:45
Oh, you you discuss it in a purely

00:16:48
scientific way. I expected you to be a

00:16:50
Bible thumper or a Bible preacher, but

00:16:52
you're you're telling me scientific

00:16:54
things that I've never heard. You've

00:16:57
really uh you've really stirred up my

00:17:00
curiosity in in ways that I haven't

00:17:01
heard before. Occasionally, there's a

00:17:04
person where I might as well be talking

00:17:06
to this mug.

00:17:07
You know, I I'll talk and I'll I'll

00:17:10
explain something and their next

00:17:12
question is, "But what how do you

00:17:14
explain this?" And I'll answer that.

00:17:15
Well, how do you explain this and I'll

00:17:17
answer that? And I realize they just

00:17:20
want to argue.

00:17:21
And with them, I'll usually say, you

00:17:24
know, the Bible says, "Taste and see

00:17:27
that the Lord is good."

00:17:29
So, I'm I I'm not going to argue. I'm

00:17:32
going to say just turn to these these

00:17:34
books in the Bible, read them, and and

00:17:36
see if you see the Lord as good.

00:17:37
Yeah. On the other hand, we do have a

00:17:40
passionate scientists and we have

00:17:42
passionate team members here who in some

00:17:45
ways

00:17:48
it's I'm not going to say hurting cats,

00:17:51
but they definitely have their idea of

00:17:53
what they like to research. I do this, I

00:17:55
this, this, this, this. And it's the

00:17:59
challenge is channel that energy and

00:18:03
move it towards projects that are really

00:18:06
big picture. big picture in terms of the

00:18:09
creation evolution discussion, not the

00:18:12
trivial stuff.

00:18:14
So big picture, big impact. In other

00:18:17
words, it's it's not just a big deal,

00:18:19
but if if we answer this question, this

00:18:23
will really move the needle

00:18:25
in people's thinking. But it also has to

00:18:28
be easy to understand

00:18:31
[laughter] so that when you tell it to

00:18:34
the person in the pew, they don't just

00:18:36
glaze over like

00:18:38
what are you even talking about? It has

00:18:41
to catch them.

00:18:42
So I'll give you a quick quick example.

00:18:44
Let's say let's say you can find a

00:18:46
dinosaur bone and you can dissolve away

00:18:49
the minerals and you still find flexible

00:18:52
blood vessels

00:18:53
in it. flexible blood vessels and maybe

00:18:57
those blood vessels even have red blood

00:18:59
cells in them on that. Wow. That's

00:19:02
that's pretty big picture because what I

00:19:04
was told in school is that these bones

00:19:06
were rock.

00:19:07
Mhm.

00:19:08
They were completely all the mineral

00:19:10
products were completely replaced with

00:19:12
with um other types of hard minerals in

00:19:16
them and that they're 60 to 100 million

00:19:20
years old on this. Well, one wait a

00:19:23
second here. How do I explain that you

00:19:26
can still find blood vessels in them?

00:19:29
That doesn't sound like it's turned to

00:19:31
rock. And I know these kind of tissues

00:19:35
don't last for hundreds, tens to

00:19:37
hundreds of millions of years.

00:19:39
And the average person in the pew

00:19:40
understands that, too. They deal with

00:19:42
tissue all the time.

00:19:44
And they know it rots. They know it's

00:19:46
gone. So this is a big impact, big

00:19:50
picture, easy to understand thing that

00:19:53
we're working on that is a is a

00:19:56
worthwhile project.

00:19:57
Wow. Well, one of the things that I

00:19:59
loved touring this is, and it goes to

00:20:02
what you said, some of these things are

00:20:04
so complex, but you simplify them so

00:20:07
that anyone can understand it. Uh, I

00:20:10
said to you before we started filming

00:20:12
even, um, this helped me understand why

00:20:15
I believe some of the things I believe

00:20:17
and like actually put some concretenness

00:20:19
to it. Uh, when you think through,

00:20:22
you've had so many conversations,

00:20:24
debates, all kinds of opinions. What are

00:20:27
some of the things that you feel like,

00:20:28
hey, when we tell people this or when

00:20:30
they understand this, like what helps

00:20:32
move them over the line to realize like,

00:20:34
oh, maybe these guys aren't crazy. This

00:20:36
is actually real science. um in using

00:20:39
Bible like using the Bible as part of

00:20:42
it.

00:20:42
Well,

00:20:45
it's not as hard to move them over the

00:20:46
line as a lot of people might think.

00:20:49
Sometimes it's just presenting evidence

00:20:52
to them and having them look at it from

00:20:55
a different perspective. So, let's take

00:20:57
the research at Mount St. Helens that

00:20:59
was one of our pioneering projects.

00:21:02
that whole eruption um really really was

00:21:05
a good model for what a catastrophe

00:21:07
would would look like. So when I was an

00:21:09
engineering student, I was actually a

00:21:10
mining engineering student. I took a lot

00:21:12
of geology and I was taught that the

00:21:14
present is the key to the past and that

00:21:17
that the rates and processes we see

00:21:19
today are probably have been steady

00:21:21
state or mostly steady state throughout

00:21:24
the history of of the earth. Maybe maybe

00:21:26
interrupted by a few minor catastrophes,

00:21:28
local catastrophes.

00:21:30
And and so I was taught that there were

00:21:33
large inland oceans that place deposits

00:21:36
and then they would recede and there'd

00:21:38
be vast periods of time and more inland

00:21:40
oceans would come and that these layers

00:21:42
built up like this

00:21:44
over a long period of time. And I I

00:21:45
bought the story

00:21:47
and then someone started saying, "Well,

00:21:49
wait a second here. There's some

00:21:51
problems with thinking like that. First

00:21:52
of all, all of us have gone out and

00:21:54
we've seen the layers. They're like

00:21:56
stacked flat right on top of each other.

00:21:58
you everybody sees them.

00:22:00
And so if something came in and placed

00:22:04
these layers and then that went away,

00:22:06
wouldn't you expect to see erosion?

00:22:08
Wouldn't you expect to see dirt and

00:22:09
sediment and branches and stuff like

00:22:11
soil in between those layers and and

00:22:14
that? But you don't see that. You see

00:22:16
flat lines, boom, boom, boom, stacked

00:22:18
right on top. What processes are doing

00:22:20
that today? Huh? I don't know of any.

00:22:24
And look how thick these sedimentary

00:22:25
rock layers are. like big thick

00:22:27
sandstones, big thick limestones, big

00:22:30
thick shells.

00:22:32
Um, yeah, they are big and thick. Well,

00:22:34
what processes are doing that today? H,

00:22:38
I can't think of any. You find massive

00:22:40
coal deposits where vegetation has been

00:22:44
buried sometimes 60 miles long and the

00:22:47
coal's 100 ft thick.

00:22:49
H, what processes are burying vegetation

00:22:53
like that? You find layers with

00:22:55
literally billions of fossils in them.

00:22:58
Trapped. Boom. Rapidly trapped. Where

00:23:02
where do I find processes burying

00:23:04
billions of fossils today? I And so when

00:23:07
someone starts pointing these things

00:23:09
out, I don't find this process today. I

00:23:11
don't find it. And now our current

00:23:13
research has looked at borehole logs

00:23:15
that oil companies and other mineral

00:23:18
exploration companies have drilled down

00:23:20
into the earth and they log what's

00:23:22
coming out. geologist looks and they can

00:23:25
get the thickness of the layers and the

00:23:27
types of rocks. And sure enough, we've

00:23:30
looked at over 3,000 of these from all

00:23:32
over the world

00:23:34
and we can demonstrate you find some of

00:23:36
the same layers and the same relative

00:23:39
order on every continent on the planet.

00:23:44
Now, what process would put the same

00:23:46
layers in the same order on all of the

00:23:48
continents? Well, flat layers, fossils,

00:23:51
coal, these a worldwide flood seems to

00:23:54
tie everything together and make really

00:23:58
good sense of the geology and and and

00:24:00
many many other parts of geology which

00:24:03
would be trivial to most people but

00:24:05
important to geologists. It can explain

00:24:08
those things as well. So, you go and you

00:24:11
do a talk like that. There was nothing

00:24:13
super complicated.

00:24:15
The average person, I never I never

00:24:17
thought about that. And then another

00:24:20
observation which someone brought to my

00:24:21
attention I never thought about when I

00:24:23
went to the Grand Canyon initially like

00:24:25
wow that looks really really old there

00:24:28
on that and um but then you start to see

00:24:31
things that don't look old. So you see

00:24:33
those you see those bees with those

00:24:35
slopes on them that supposedly been

00:24:37
eroding for millions of years. Someone

00:24:38
said where's all the rubble that has

00:24:41
eroded off of those slopes? Why don't

00:24:42
you see it sitting on those shoulders of

00:24:45
all of those slopes for the entire

00:24:47
canyon? And I looked, there is no rubble

00:24:50
on those.

00:24:51
I mean, if they've been eroding for

00:24:52
millions of years, I'd expect to find

00:24:54
broken rocks falling off, sitting on the

00:24:56
shoulders, but they're swept absolutely

00:24:58
clean. He said, "Whatever has swept away

00:25:01
that rubble carved this canyon."

00:25:04
H, that makes sense.

00:25:07
I go around, I start seeing signs of

00:25:09
things that actually happened rapidly,

00:25:12
not slow. The present isn't really the

00:25:14
key to the past. The flood is the key to

00:25:16
the past

00:25:17
and present day conditions are are are

00:25:21
not capable of putting those geological

00:25:24
features we see. So that's that's an

00:25:26
illustration that's not complicated.

00:25:28
It's easy for everybody to understand.

00:25:30
You just bring to their attention things

00:25:34
that they've never seen before.

00:25:36
Yeah.

00:25:36
And and it works.

00:25:38
Yeah. That's I I love those flood

00:25:40
examples. What about on the the creation

00:25:43
side? like the 7-day creation story. Um,

00:25:47
how do you so many Christians and

00:25:49
non-Christians religion doesn't matter.

00:25:52
That's something that they struggle

00:25:53
with, I think. Um, trying to understand

00:25:55
like, well, was it seven days? Was it

00:25:57
not seven days? Uh, how have you thought

00:26:00
through that? And I know you have some

00:26:02
amazing exhibits uh in here that kind of

00:26:04
talk through that.

00:26:05
Right. Right. Well, first of all, if you

00:26:09
take the biblical record seriously and

00:26:11
at face value, and this is what I was

00:26:13
taught at Moody Bible Institute, we use

00:26:16
the the the normal method of Bible

00:26:18
interpretation. Now, the purpose says,

00:26:20
"Well, does that mean that we're all

00:26:20
abnormal if we don't hold to it?"

00:26:22
What it really means is you you treat

00:26:25
the Bible like you treat any other piece

00:26:28
of literature. And so when you read the

00:26:31
newspaper, you read it and you give

00:26:33
words their normal meaning in their

00:26:35
normal context. When I hand a patient a

00:26:39
prescription and they take it to the

00:26:41
pharmacy, the the pharmacist gives my

00:26:43
words their normal meaning in their

00:26:45
normal context. Uh or when I was an

00:26:48
engineer and we'd have a contract, they

00:26:50
give the contract the words are normal

00:26:52
meaning. Otherwise, if you can make the

00:26:54
words mean anything you want, then then

00:26:57
then contracts are pretty much

00:26:58
worthless.

00:26:59
So, that's what we meant by normal. So,

00:27:01
you give the words our normal meaning.

00:27:03
two, you um you recognize that we serve

00:27:08
an omnipotent God and he can do anything

00:27:11
he wants, how he wants, but there are

00:27:14
four basic characteristics which really

00:27:17
come out in the first two chapters of

00:27:19
Genesis to summarize everything that we

00:27:21
would be reading that really do

00:27:23
accurately explain what we would see in

00:27:25
creation at least for the parts that we

00:27:27
can see.

00:27:28
First, it says it was spoken. It was

00:27:31
like, "And God said, boom, and it was."

00:27:34
And God said, "And it was." And and

00:27:36
that's reaffirmed in Psalm 33 and in

00:27:38
Hebrews chapter one as well that by the

00:27:41
word of the Lord these things came. So

00:27:43
it was spoken.

00:27:44
Two, it was immediate. God said and it

00:27:48
was and it was also direct. Many things

00:27:53
God did it and it came out. So if you

00:27:55
take the creation of Adam, if we if we

00:27:58
say that as a historical record, it said

00:28:01
God took dust of the ground, formed a

00:28:03
man, breathed into his nostrils breath

00:28:05
of life. It's immediate and it's direct.

00:28:08
And then the fourth characteristic is

00:28:11
it's complete.

00:28:12
Adam was not a work in progress. He was

00:28:15
a completed entity.

00:28:18
He's adaptable. He can adapt, but he's a

00:28:21
completed entity. Eve, completed entity.

00:28:26
So direct, immediate, and complete. And

00:28:31
those are the desri the descriptions in

00:28:33
the Bible of this creation. And there's

00:28:36
no reason why we can't believe that

00:28:38
scientifically. In fact, as far as we

00:28:40
know, all the types of creatures are

00:28:42
pretty much complete. They can they can

00:28:44
they can go into different species, but

00:28:46
they don't change from one type of

00:28:48
creature to another. They're they're

00:28:49
complete and they're set. The Bible also

00:28:52
says they they reproduce after their

00:28:55
kind.

00:28:56
Oh, that's what everybody has observed

00:28:58
throughout all of human history. These

00:29:01
creatures re faithfully reproduce after

00:29:03
the kind. The Bible says in Genesis 1,

00:29:05
whose seed was in itself.

00:29:09
That's another really good biological

00:29:12
statement there. That's that's exactly

00:29:14
what we found before you could even see

00:29:17
a sperm in an egg before you even had

00:29:20
microscopes. The seed is in itself. And

00:29:23
then it it seems like you need the whole

00:29:25
self to make the seed work. So there's

00:29:28
no which came first, the chicken or the

00:29:30
egg. The Bible says the chicken came

00:29:32
with her eggs.

00:29:34
That makes sense. So scientifically,

00:29:38
there is some there's a lot of

00:29:39
consistency there in this account.

00:29:42
What about on the completeness? And I

00:29:44
know you're talking about things that

00:29:45
were made, things like space and the

00:29:48
stars and such which are ever expanding.

00:29:51
How do how do people reconcile that as

00:29:53
they get into it?

00:29:54
Well, there's no really no real need not

00:29:56
to recognize that space could be

00:29:59
expanding.

00:30:00
That doesn't have to be reconciled, you

00:30:02
know, biblically.

00:30:04
That that space could be expanding and

00:30:06
these galaxies and things we see could

00:30:09
be moving away from each other. Um,

00:30:12
that's that's a real possibility.

00:30:15
When we get into space, believe it or

00:30:17
not, the the explanations, our

00:30:19
explanations or even the conventional

00:30:21
explanations are really not nailed down

00:30:24
as tightly as NOVA might want you to

00:30:28
believe on that. There's a lot of things

00:30:31
yet to be discovered

00:30:33
and there's a lot of things we can't

00:30:34
measure. There's a lot of things that

00:30:36
come out different. And so all of the

00:30:39
explanations, ours and their

00:30:41
explanations are constantly changing.

00:30:44
They're being updated

00:30:46
and the like. I um I think one

00:30:50
explanation I really have liked is that

00:30:51
space is a fabric and God stretched this

00:30:54
out

00:30:55
and how and the and the rate at which he

00:30:57
stretched out maybe time was standing

00:30:59
still

00:31:00
and and that's that could happen even in

00:31:02
the universe right now

00:31:04
from the reference of someone looking at

00:31:07
a black hole

00:31:09
of where light may be trying to escape

00:31:11
being pulled in at that point from the

00:31:13
outside in time looks like it's standing

00:31:15
still at that there's all kinds of

00:31:18
phenomenon

00:31:19
which relate to time and space. But from

00:31:23
what we see, completed galaxies, they

00:31:25
look mature. They don't look like

00:31:26
they're in the process of evolving.

00:31:28
We've never seen stars form. They're

00:31:30
complete. They're sure. These these all

00:31:32
fit consistently with the Bible.

00:31:35
It's interesting leading here. You've

00:31:39
got things that are explaining creation

00:31:42
from space, underwater, on the ground,

00:31:45
new discoveries all the time. Uh you

00:31:47
mentioned that you're you're working

00:31:49
with the team to figure out what do we

00:31:50
research next? What are we getting into?

00:31:52
As you think through like the next 5 10

00:31:54
years, what are you and the team most

00:31:57
excited about some of the advances that

00:31:59
you're seeing in and actually trying to

00:32:01
research? That's a really good question

00:32:04
and and believe it or not, the areas

00:32:06
that we're mostly excited about would be

00:32:08
the areas that are probably the most

00:32:10
exciting to any conventional biologist

00:32:14
and it's biology. And I was a mining

00:32:17
engineer. I got my license in civil.

00:32:21
Civil and mechanical, they're still

00:32:22
standbys, but the fastest growing fields

00:32:25
are biomed engineering, biotechnology.

00:32:29
Those are those are really really

00:32:32
developing quickly. They're when I was

00:32:34
in college, we didn't even have those

00:32:36
departments, but now they're some of the

00:32:38
biggest, fastest growing wellunded

00:32:40
departments out there. Mhm.

00:32:42
So, how do you explain biology? You

00:32:45
know, when I was in school, I was taught

00:32:47
and I believed obviously

00:32:50
that there was a lot of randomness to

00:32:52
it. There was much not much purpose. It

00:32:54
had this non-theistic flavor,

00:32:56
purposeless, random, random changes

00:33:00
sorted out haphazardly by deadly

00:33:02
struggles to survive and a hitand- miss

00:33:05
process.

00:33:06
It was it was very clunky. and anything

00:33:09
that a real engineer, real designing God

00:33:13
would ever use.

00:33:17
And in some ways, it was put together to

00:33:19
give that impression. Yeah. No God would

00:33:21
ever do it like this. Why Why would God

00:33:23
use death and struggle to survive and

00:33:26
random genetic mutations and that makes

00:33:29
no sense?

00:33:30
Well, the reality is it doesn't make any

00:33:32
sense. And we're not really seeing that

00:33:35
as some of the major drivers. That was

00:33:37
all that was all verbiage. That was all

00:33:40
narrative gloss that was put on that.

00:33:42
What we see now is we see a biology

00:33:45
which can be engineered. We see a

00:33:47
biology which can be forward engineered.

00:33:50
And we've always had a biology which

00:33:52
could be reverse engineered, taking it

00:33:54
apart piece by piece and figuring out

00:33:56
how all of these things worked. So now

00:34:00
the approach towards biology

00:34:03
is kind of bifurcated. You have you have

00:34:06
the evolutionary biologists which still

00:34:08
want to hold to this random view,

00:34:10
purposeless view and everything because

00:34:13
of all of the metaphysical baggage that

00:34:15
goes with that. But then you have those

00:34:16
who want to make money. [laughter]

00:34:20
They want to have products.

00:34:21
Yeah.

00:34:22
And they and they see it as something

00:34:24
that can be engineered.

00:34:27
And I'm not advocating for all of the

00:34:29
manipulation. What I'm saying is it's

00:34:32
logical. It's purposeful. It's

00:34:35
understandable. Lots of engineering

00:34:37
principles seem to explain what's going

00:34:40
on here. So, biology looks just

00:34:44
phenomenally complicated but engineered.

00:34:48
That's the approach. That's what ICR is

00:34:50
looking at too is how do you explain

00:34:52
this incredible engineering in biology?

00:34:56
And our hypothesis is it looks

00:34:59
engineered because it was engineered.

00:35:03
And when we start with that premise, uh

00:35:06
that really gives us some really good

00:35:08
research um programs to develop. Now

00:35:10
some people say, well, what are your

00:35:12
research programs? Well, first of all,

00:35:14
we have some assumptions. I assume that

00:35:17
everything in biology can be reverse

00:35:19
engineered.

00:35:20
Not life itself, but your biological

00:35:23
functions. I I assume it can be reverse

00:35:25
engineered. I assume I'm going to find

00:35:27
purpose at every single level that I

00:35:30
research. M

00:35:31
I assume that I'm going to find control

00:35:33
systems for everything that is going on

00:35:37
inside your body. There's a control

00:35:39
system. There's a control area for it. I

00:35:41
assume that the only way I'm going to

00:35:44
really be able to explain causality of

00:35:46
this is through engineering principles,

00:35:49
solid engineering principles which every

00:35:51
engineer would use. That will be the

00:35:54
explanation. I assume that when I find a

00:35:57
man-made thing doing a similar function

00:35:59
as a creature that studying the man-made

00:36:03
thing can also help my study of the

00:36:06
biology which is the opposite of what we

00:36:08
normally do. We normally look at biology

00:36:10
and copy it to get products. I'm saying

00:36:13
you can also look at how humans have

00:36:15
engineered something and if you don't

00:36:17
know the biology that will give you a

00:36:19
clue to look

00:36:21
because they're going to probably

00:36:22
function by the same engineering

00:36:24
principles on all of this. I'm going to

00:36:28
take an entity for as a standalone

00:36:30
entity and assume that all of its

00:36:33
capabilities it will ever have are

00:36:36
inside of that creature. And so I will

00:36:40
assume that when I see changes like fish

00:36:43
that live in the stream that suddenly

00:36:45
find themselves in caves and now when we

00:36:48
see them they're they've lost

00:36:49
pigmentation. They've lost their

00:36:51
eyesight that that is not due to broken

00:36:54
pathways that have iteratively broken

00:36:57
over long periods of time. I'm going to

00:37:00
hypothesize that the fish can go from

00:37:03
the sighted pigmented type to the blind

00:37:06
hypopigmented sight

00:37:08
morph by internal capabilities which

00:37:12
enable it to do that purposefully

00:37:15
to live inside those caves along with

00:37:17
the dozens of other traits that need to

00:37:20
change on that fish to live in those

00:37:22
caves and I will look for the control

00:37:24
systems that allow that to happen. So

00:37:27
you have a a very rational research

00:37:30
program to research how the fish can

00:37:33
lose their eyes, how the fish can lose

00:37:35
their pigmentation, how they can thrive

00:37:38
inside that cave.

00:37:39
So that's the area

00:37:41
Yeah.

00:37:42
that we're really excited about.

00:37:43
That's exciting. I got um

00:37:46
a very brief maybe 5 10 minute uh

00:37:50
walkthrough of the fish example a few

00:37:52
months back and uh one of the things

00:37:54
that I was so impressed by was these

00:37:58
fish that now don't have eyes you guys

00:38:01
are working well I don't think this is

00:38:03
top secret cuz share with me but the uh

00:38:05
you guys are working to get eyes to

00:38:08
regrow in that fish and working on those

00:38:10
control systems and even just the

00:38:12
process to understand some of Those

00:38:13
control systems are so complex. Uh it's

00:38:16
just amazing. Uh the question I guess is

00:38:20
there's so many non Christian

00:38:23
non-creation scientists working on

00:38:24
similar things. How do people end up at

00:38:28
such different conclusions because it

00:38:30
seems like all of the the science ends

00:38:33
up pointing to everything that you guys

00:38:35
are saying from a creation standpoint.

00:38:37
Right.

00:38:38
That's a that's a uh that question is

00:38:42
right on the money because we can

00:38:45
research the exact same thing. In fact,

00:38:47
we can read their papers and and use

00:38:50
their observations. Oh, they they did

00:38:52
this, they found this, they did this,

00:38:53
they found this

00:38:55
and uh and it helps guide our research.

00:38:58
So, looking at the how the research is

00:39:01
being done is is really interchangeable.

00:39:04
they could take some of our things that

00:39:06
we found and use them in their studies.

00:39:08
It's how you're going to interpret it.

00:39:11
And so I I listed off all of my

00:39:15
assumptions. I assume it can be reverse

00:39:17
engineer. I assume this. So I have a a

00:39:20
framework for approaching biology from

00:39:22
this engineering perspective

00:39:24
with different assumptions.

00:39:27
And the evolutionary biologist has a

00:39:29
completely different framework.

00:39:32
They're going to assume that if there's

00:39:34
a genetic change, they're going to

00:39:36
assume that there's something broken,

00:39:39
that there was a mutation, a copying

00:39:41
error, or maybe it was damaged in some

00:39:44
way. That's that's where they're going

00:39:46
that's what they're going to assume. I'm

00:39:48
going to assume if I see a genetic

00:39:50
change that it might be regulated and it

00:39:53
might happen on purpose. They're not

00:39:56
going to let that into their view and at

00:39:58
least initially because something that's

00:40:00
regulated and sounds very purposeful

00:40:02
sounds engineered.

00:40:04
I'm not against that. [laughter] It's

00:40:06
like, okay, I'll leave that option open

00:40:10
there. And I'm not going to classify my

00:40:12
genetic change as something broken

00:40:15
unless there's really hard evidence that

00:40:16
says it's broken. M

00:40:18
so I think I actually have a better

00:40:20
approach for interpreting things and

00:40:23
understanding them from this

00:40:25
evolutionary perspective

00:40:28
which sees those things. I'm not going

00:40:29
to assume that all this came about due

00:40:31
to struggles to survive where one out

00:40:34
competed another and this and that. I'm

00:40:37
going to assume that probably most these

00:40:39
fish have inate have an innate

00:40:40
capability to turn off their eyes. And

00:40:44
that's really what we're researching

00:40:45
right now is how do these eyes go off?

00:40:49
That's just as remarkable as how do you

00:40:51
get them to come back on?

00:40:53
So it's the it's the framework at which

00:40:56
you're going to approach it and

00:40:58
interpret your findings

00:41:01
and what explanations you're going to

00:41:04
allow

00:41:05
into your find to explain it and which

00:41:08
ones you're going to exclude. Mhm.

00:41:10
In some ways, um, nothing's really off

00:41:13
the table. I I I'm I'm open to something

00:41:16
maybe being broken,

00:41:17
but I'm my my bias is until I find that

00:41:20
it's going to be purposeful. So, there's

00:41:23
a lot that I I I I'm open to

00:41:27
interpreting what the evolutionary

00:41:29
biologist would not even let in the door

00:41:32
on there. Th this this is something that

00:41:35
I I've really wanted to ask you. uh that

00:41:38
doesn't necessarily relate to that, but

00:41:40
it's the whole of what you're doing. Um,

00:41:43
a lot of a lot of Christians out there

00:41:46
um would talk about Jesus being the only

00:41:49
thing that matters. And you guys are

00:41:52
coming at this from a creation science

00:41:54
standpoint in creation. One of the

00:41:56
things I loved about the discovery

00:41:57
center, and I know I'm giving this away,

00:41:59
but listeners should actually go and see

00:42:01
it because it's more than I'm

00:42:02
describing, but so much is to do with

00:42:04
creation. And then right at the end,

00:42:07
everything points to Jesus, right? Talk

00:42:10
about how you deal with both of those

00:42:12
sides where it's like in the end you

00:42:14
came to know the Lord before you knew

00:42:17
anything about creation and somebody

00:42:19
doesn't need to know that, but how it's

00:42:20
helped you understand the Lord better.

00:42:22
Oh,

00:42:23
well, when people say Jesus is all that

00:42:25
matters, a lot of times they're just

00:42:27
thinking about the gospel. We people are

00:42:30
lost and they need to be saved and and

00:42:32
there is no other name under heaven

00:42:34
given among men whereby men must be

00:42:36
saved than the name of Jesus. We need to

00:42:38
get them the gospel. And that's why they

00:42:41
say Jesus is all that matters.

00:42:43
It's the gospel first. And sometimes

00:42:46
that's a a cover for I'm kind of

00:42:48
embarrassed that maybe the Bible might

00:42:50
be wrong on these scientific things.

00:42:52
Therefore, Jesus is all that matters and

00:42:55
it may be wrong on these other areas.

00:42:57
Well, there's two problems with that.

00:42:59
One, if it's wrong in these other areas,

00:43:01
how do you know it's not wrong in terms

00:43:03
of atonement and anything else that it

00:43:05
discusses? I mean, if it's the Bible has

00:43:08
lost its credibility historically and

00:43:11
scientifically, then it's not credible.

00:43:14
And most of us recognize that. Two, you

00:43:16
need the Bible to grow in grace and

00:43:18
knowledge of the Lord Jesus. So, you

00:43:20
can't start out doubting it and not

00:43:22
believing it right from the get-go and

00:43:26
then hope to to become a disciple.

00:43:29
Yeah.

00:43:29
Of the Lord Jesus. So, the whole goal is

00:43:32
to build disciples.

00:43:34
Number two, and I don't know if a lot of

00:43:36
Christians think about this, and I

00:43:38
didn't initially, is the creation is

00:43:42
also a revelation.

00:43:44
It's made to be a type of revelation.

00:43:47
The Bible is a revelation where without

00:43:50
it we could never know certain things

00:43:52
about God just from just from the

00:43:54
creation.

00:43:55
But the creation is another type of

00:43:57
revelation and particularly the

00:43:59
biological realm. That's what I just

00:44:01
love. Uh cosmology is good too but

00:44:04
biology is that's really the name of the

00:44:07
game. And as you research biology and

00:44:11
you look at the things that the Lord has

00:44:13
just put into a cell of which, you know,

00:44:16
hundreds could fit on the head of a pin,

00:44:19
little mini cities in there, factories

00:44:23
and all this other kind of stuff inside

00:44:26
a cell. And then you look at all the

00:44:28
phenomenal systems

00:44:30
in your body

00:44:32
that are just complex almost

00:44:35
mind-bogglingly complex on how complex

00:44:38
they are that in an experiential way is

00:44:43
is demonstrating to anybody but it

00:44:46
should be particularly to Christians

00:44:49
the power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

00:44:53
He can do this. He can do this. He

00:44:57
builds these things. Um, and his genius

00:45:01
to think it all up

00:45:04
and his wisdom to balance competing

00:45:06
needs, all these competing needs. And he

00:45:09
hits he hits that the optimal solution

00:45:12
to balance all those competing needs.

00:45:13
You you see this in a real tangible way

00:45:17
in the creation. And it's it's in every

00:45:20
area you look. It's revealing things

00:45:22
about the creator to us. Ah,

00:45:26
how now I know how he can hear all the

00:45:29
prayers of all the people praying at one

00:45:31
time.

00:45:32
Now I know he he can answer those

00:45:35
prayers. He's powerful enough. Now I

00:45:38
know what what he decides in his answer

00:45:42
will be good.

00:45:43
He's wise. He's wise beyond measure

00:45:47
on that. And so the creation is a

00:45:50
revelation of just how great and

00:45:54
powerful our savior, our creator really

00:45:58
is. And it should it should really

00:46:00
reinforce the faith of Christians. And

00:46:03
ICR exists to to establish biblical

00:46:08
credibility, but to tell this other area

00:46:11
of creation so that Christians are built

00:46:14
up in their faith.

00:46:15
Yeah, I love that. I've I had never

00:46:17
thought of creation being a revelation.

00:46:19
Uh, and I love how you frame that. Um,

00:46:23
okay. I could ask you 500 more questions

00:46:25
and still have more, but I want to ask

00:46:27
you 10 rapid fire questions that we'll

00:46:29
finish with.

00:46:30
Okay, let me get a drink [laughter]

00:46:31
here.

00:46:32
Who's the first person you think of when

00:46:34
I say servant leadership?

00:46:36
The Lord Jesus. All right.

00:46:38
Of course.

00:46:38
Favorite author or book?

00:46:41
My favorite author um Henry M. Morris

00:46:44
and the book is the Genesis record

00:46:48
and it's probably one of my favorite

00:46:49
books

00:46:50
and that kind of led to everything we're

00:46:52
seeing today

00:46:53
right here

00:46:54
which is awesome. Favorite food?

00:46:56
Um uh spaghetti.

00:46:58
Favorite thing to do in your free time?

00:47:00
Um woodworking.

00:47:01
What's a surprising fact about you?

00:47:04
The surprising what?

00:47:05
Fact about you? fact about me is um

00:47:12
that not only do I do all these

00:47:15
intellectual things, but I I built my

00:47:17
own house.

00:47:18
Wow. Yeah,

00:47:19
that is surprising. That's crazy. Um

00:47:22
favorite place you've been

00:47:24
to Sicily.

00:47:25
All right. Is there anywhere in the

00:47:26
world you want to go that you have not

00:47:28
been to?

00:47:30
Um,

00:47:32
I think

00:47:34
I Man, there's a lot of good places. I

00:47:38
think I'd like to go to some place in

00:47:40
Scandinavia.

00:47:41
Wow. Um, okay. If people are trying to

00:47:44
figure out about creation, how the world

00:47:47
got started, God. What's the first thing

00:47:50
you tell them to go check out?

00:47:51
I tell them to go to icr.org.

00:47:54
Love it.

00:47:54
I mean, thousands of articles,

00:47:56
absolutely free. You've got questions,

00:47:58
we probably have the answers.

00:47:59
What should they do when they get there?

00:48:01
Well, you just go into the search. We'll

00:48:03
look in your questions. First of all,

00:48:05
look on our look at our current research

00:48:07
on our front pages. Read some of those

00:48:08
articles on that.

00:48:10
Then, if you have questions, go to the

00:48:12
search and search out what you have. If

00:48:16
this is intriguing to you, go to your

00:48:17
church and say, "I'd like to have an

00:48:19
event."

00:48:20
Pull down the events tab and see how you

00:48:22
can schedule one of our events at your

00:48:24
church.

00:48:25
Wow, that's cool. Um, and we'll put just

00:48:28
for people listening, we'll make sure

00:48:29
there's links to everything where they

00:48:31
can access them in the show notes. Um,

00:48:33
all right. Best advice you've ever

00:48:34
received.

00:48:38
The best advice I've received is, um,

00:48:43
from Dr. Russ Humphre is let the Bible

00:48:46
be your guide and look to the Bible for

00:48:50
clues into research, scientific

00:48:53
research. M

00:48:54
um they they will those clues will be

00:48:56
there and search for that in terms of

00:48:58
scientific research.

00:49:00
Wow. Okay. And finally, a podcast. We

00:49:03
talk a lot about servant leadership and

00:49:04
I know we went in a lot of directions

00:49:06
today uh which are amazing. Why do you

00:49:08
think people should care about being

00:49:10
better servant leaders?

00:49:13
Well,

00:49:15
first of all, people are watching you

00:49:17
and that's what they're going to follow

00:49:19
more often than not. And the servant

00:49:22
leader is the these are good questions.

00:49:25
It's the opposite of the selfc centered

00:49:27
leader.

00:49:28
And the self-centered leader um really

00:49:32
soon loses their following

00:49:34
because people recognize they're they're

00:49:36
in it for themselves. They don't really

00:49:38
care for me. I'm a stepping stone or

00:49:40
just a widget in this person's life and

00:49:45
pretty soon you don't have much of a

00:49:47
following

00:49:48
on that. So, so from a pragmatic

00:49:51
standpoint, people are watching you and

00:49:54
um there's a there's a type of power

00:49:55
that comes from this personality that

00:49:57
you have a you really care for them.

00:50:00
You're going to serve them and look out

00:50:01
for them. But even more important than

00:50:04
that is it it pleases the ultimate

00:50:08
servant leader

00:50:10
is he finds that he he he says that's

00:50:13
good. I like that. And if nothing else,

00:50:17
it it it pleases him.

00:50:20
Yeah.

00:50:20
It's what he what he wants you to be.

00:50:23
Well, Randy, thank you for your time

00:50:25
today. Uh if people are in Texas, we're

00:50:27
going to link to where they can find the

00:50:28
Discovery Center. They should tour it

00:50:30
for sure. Uh I I can promise they'll be

00:50:33
amazed. And then separately, we didn't

00:50:35
talk about it at all, but you have a

00:50:36
podcast where people also want to get

00:50:38
more information and start following,

00:50:40
there's an awesome podcast that people

00:50:41
can subscribe to, which we'll throw the

00:50:43
YouTube in there. any any plug you want

00:50:45
to give on the podcast to tell people

00:50:46
what they'll hear?

00:50:47
Well, they'll be filmed in the studio

00:50:48
with they'll be put together in an

00:50:50
expert way. We went from about 10,000

00:50:54
subscribers on YouTube to over a

00:50:56
million.

00:50:56
Wow.

00:50:57
In about two years. So, high quality

00:50:59
podcast. We'll answer your questions. Um

00:51:01
you can find a link to that also at

00:51:03
icr.org or at the YouTube uh just under

00:51:06
Institute for Creation Research.

00:51:08
Wow. Well, thank you Randy. This

00:51:10
Thank you, Chris. It's a it's been a

00:51:11
blessing. Thank you for listening to

00:51:14
this episode of the Servant Leadership

00:51:16
Podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard,

00:51:18
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00:51:20
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