Mentor's Surprising Advice

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One Sunday after church, I had this

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godly mentor pull me aside and he's

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like, "Hey, dude. I heard you're

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thinking about plenty of church." And

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I'm thinking, "This guy's gonna pat me

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on the back, maybe write me a check to

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get the church started." And he just

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looks me like dead in the eyes. He goes,

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"I got to be honest, that sounds pretty

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stupid uh for you."

Introducing Jordan Raynor

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Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

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we welcome best-selling author and

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entrepreneur Jordan Rener. Jordan spent

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the first decade of his career as a tech

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entrepreneur, starting and selling two

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software companies before he ever wrote

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a book. Today, more than 7 million

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Christians have engaged his work on

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connecting the gospel to the job they do

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Monday through Friday. When a mentor

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told him his work as an entrepreneur was

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already ministry, Jordan set aside plans

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to plant a church and built his career

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around the conviction [music] that the

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work you do matters deeply to God. Join

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us as Jordan shares why Jesus spent most

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of his adult life swinging a hammer

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instead of preaching. Why the ministry

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of excellence comes before the ministry

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of the gospel and the template he uses

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to say no without damaging the

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relationship. Also, before we dive in,

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make sure to give this episode a like

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and subscribe or follow the show so you

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don't miss the next conversation.

Welcome Jordan Raynor

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Jordan, thank you for being on the

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Servant Leadership Podcast.

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Yeah, Chris, my joy. Thanks for having

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me.

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This I told you before, but this is a

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little bit intimidating because I

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listened to your podcast for the longest

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time and you are a great interviewer.

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So, we'll see how this goes.

Jordan's Writing Journey

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How did you get into writing books? Talk

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to our audience about your career path

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that led to you writing a lot of books.

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And I I have a bunch of questions on the

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books after.

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Yeah, sure. So, um you know what I write

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about today is very very narrow. Uh, I

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write books that help primarily

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Christians understand how their faith

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shapes the work they do in the world.

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But I kind of came to this craft in a

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roundabout way. I spent the first 10

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years of my career as a full-time tech

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entrepreneur. Started and sold a couple

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of different software businesses. And it

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was actually after u my exit of that

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second company that my story kind of

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began to take shape. I I sold the second

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company trying to figure out what the

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hecks I was going to do next

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professionally and wanted to start a

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third business but didn't really feel

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permission to because and I think a lot

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of Christians can resonate with this. I

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would go to church on Sundays and feel

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this guilt of like man how dare I want

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to go start a business when there's a

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need for you know people to be pastors

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or missionaries or be Mother Teresa like

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whatever. And um so for a little bit

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there my wife and I were praying about

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two paths. Path A was go start another

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business. Path B was go start a church.

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We were actually talking about uh going

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to DC to plant church in DC because Lord

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knows our friends in DC need Jesus. Um

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and um so yeah, man, I'm praying about

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these paths and one Sunday after church,

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I had this godly mentor pull me aside

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and he's like, "Hey, dude. I heard

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you're thinking about plenty of church."

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And I'm thinking this guy's going to pat

0:03:03
me on the back. Maybe write me a check

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to get the church started. And he just

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looks me like dead in the eyes. He goes,

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"I got to be honest. This sounds pretty

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stupid uh for you like personally." I

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was like, "Oh, so I should take this

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personally." Cool, cool, cool. He's

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like, "Dude, like don't you get that

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your work as an entrepreneur is

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ministering to the world? You're meeting

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customers needs. You are a servant

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leader. Like, don't you get that? That's

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ministry?" And I said, "Oh, yeah, sure."

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Like, I go to work so I can evangelize

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my customers or write a check to the

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missionaries on my refrigerator. He's

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like, "Sure, Jordan, but like God cares

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about the work itself and not just the

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evangelism you do within the work." And

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that blew my mind. And after that

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conversation, Chris, I went home. I

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opened up my Bible. I read a passage,

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the first page that I had read a

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thousand times before, but this time I

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saw in a totally new light. I saw

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something that is unique about

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Christianity and the history of world

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religions. Christianity alone claims

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that God himself

God's Work and Creativity

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works. That blew my mind. It's literally

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the only thing we know about the

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character of God on the first page of

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scripture is that he is a God who

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creates. I would argue God was the first

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entrepreneur, right? Taking a risk to

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create something new for the good of

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others. So that blew my mind. Long story

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short, I did not go plant a church. I

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went and ran another company because I

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was so overwhelmed with this vision of a

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God who I love so much, who himself

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loves work and creativity and

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entrepreneurship so much. And so since

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then, I've been on this lifelong quest

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of sharing that message through my books

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and podcasts and a bunch of other

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mediums. M reading your content it

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resonates so deeply with me because uh

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when I was in college I was working had

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some success in college and was thinking

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okay all I can do is work and make a ton

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of money and then we're going to give it

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all away and I didn't really see it as

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what I was doing was ministry at all or

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had anything to do with my faith other

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than I'm a Christian. Uh it was all

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about okay make a ton of money and give

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it away. Um, one thing I think is

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interesting in your sacredness of

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secular workbook, you talk about Jesus

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and you talk about his management styles

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and you talk about his work. Like, can

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you can you elaborate a little bit more

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on how you see that show up in scripture

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even after Genesis 1 and God creating?

Jesus' Life as a Carpenter

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Yeah, sure. So the the Christian

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tradition in in Matthew, Mark, Luke and

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John, these four biographies we have on

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Jesus's life. Uh Christians believe

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Jesus is a son of God, we are taught

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that God the father sent his son Jesus

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to grow up in the home of a carpenter

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named Joseph. And in the first century,

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you were what your dad did, right? Like

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you grew up in the family business. You

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learned that trade. That became your

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trade. And most theologians and scholars

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believe that Jesus spent 85% roughly of

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his adult life not preaching sermons but

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swinging a hammer and making tables,

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cutting stone, right? Sometimes that

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word is translated carpenter. Sometime

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it is translated uh to mean stonemason.

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And here's what's mindboggling to me.

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Given the trajectory of Jesus' life and

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what he said he came to earth to do, to

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forgive sins, to usher in the kingdom of

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heaven. It is startling that that's the

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trade his heavenly father wanted him to

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learn because God the father could have

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chosen for Jesus to grow up in the home

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of a priest where he would spend all day

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every day in prayer like his cousin John

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the Baptist did. He could have chosen

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for Jesus to grow up in the home of a

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Pharisee like Paul where he would spend

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all day every day studying the Torah.

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But instead, God in his sovereignty

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chose for his son to grow up in the home

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of a small business owner named Joseph

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in this backwater town of Nazareth where

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he would spend all day every day making

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things with his hands. And if that

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doesn't assign in intrinsic value to the

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work that you and I do with the material

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world, making things with our hands,

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typing on aluminum MacBooks, whatever it

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is, man, I don't know what else does.

Reframing Work's Importance

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Yeah. When you reframe it that way, it

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puts such a different perspective for me

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on the importance of work. I I never

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even considered, okay, did the job Jesus

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had mattered? Did God think about that?

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like it just was he was a carpenter. Uh

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you talk about in in I forget which book

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pro probably the sacredness of secular

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work but you talk about the four ways

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that our jobs matter for eternity.

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How did you come up with the conclusions

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there? Uh and what were you hoping

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people would take away and change about

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how they view work?

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Yeah, my my hope was that they would

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walk away and see that their work has

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both instrumental and intrinsic value.

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So here's what I mean by those terms.

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Most Christians understand that their

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work has instrumental value. I.e. I go

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to work so I can evangelize or I go to

0:08:13
work to make a lot of money to donate to

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other people. That's instrumental value.

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The sad thing is that's like less than

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1% of our actual job, right? Uh writing

0:08:22
the check, sharing the gospel, whatever,

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let's be honest, is.1%

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of the time we spend at work. The

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radical truth buried inside of the

0:08:31
Bible. It's actually not buried. kind of

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all over the place is that in addition

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to our work having instrumental value,

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it also has intrinsic value to God. Said

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more simply, 100% of your time at work

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matters to the God of the Bible. Right?

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And so I walk through these four ways

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that that is true. Four ways your job

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matters for eternity. Number one, our

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work is a means of bringing pleasure to

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God. Not that he needs us to do anything

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for him, but he allows our work to

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contribute to his eternal happiness.

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Number two, our work is a way that we

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can maximize eternal rewards and ensure

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that our work physically lasts into

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heaven, which is a crazy idea. Uh number

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three, our work is the means by which we

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can scratch off glimpses, not literal

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glimpses, but glimpses of the kingdom of

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heaven in the present. And then finally,

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number four, and this is the one most

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people already get. Our work can be a

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means of sharing the good news that

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Jesus is king uh with people who we work

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with and live with and are in community

0:09:36
with. So that's the rough sketch of that

0:09:39
book. And those truths are largely

0:09:42
unexplored in most churches today, but

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they are all over the Bible. I'll leave

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you with this, Chris. The Bible talks

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about work, mentions work more than 800

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times. That's more than every single

0:09:55
mention of worship, music, and praise

0:09:58
combined. Clearly, our work matters

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deeply to God because he himself is a

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working creative God.

Revolutionary Thoughts on Work

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Why is this such a a revolutionary

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thought um and so like new to today? I

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feel like even 10, 20 years ago, this

0:10:19
was something that just didn't come up.

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And now it's like, okay, this is so

0:10:22
central to the Bible and it always has

0:10:24
been. Uh why are people caring more? Why

0:10:28
why has it been missed for all these

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years?

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Yeah. Yeah. It's not new. It sounds new.

0:10:33
I would argue what we preach in our

0:10:35
churches today about work is what is

0:10:37
new. Um and here's the crux of this. And

0:10:40
if you didn't grow up uh going to a

0:10:43
church or you don't go to a church

0:10:44
today, this may not make sense. But for

0:10:45
those who do, I think this will

0:10:46
resonate. We are living at the only time

0:10:50
in the history of Christendom, in the

0:10:52
history of the church, where the

0:10:55
[snorts] great commission to make

0:10:58
disciples, Jesus' call for us to share

0:11:01
the gospel and teach other people to

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live in his way has functionally become

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the only commission that pastors preach

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to their congregations. The only

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commission that they call them to. And

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when that's true, when that's the only

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thing that we hear, of course, we're not

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going to see any eternal significance in

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our work because 99.9% of the time that

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we're at work, we're not walking people

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through the Romans row. We're not

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sharing the gospel. But this is a very

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new development in church history pri

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and it's it's so interesting that the

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Baptist tradition is one of the worst

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culprits of this over the last 200

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years. This is coming from an elder in a

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Baptist church, by the way, because the

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Southeastern Baptist Theological

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Seminary, I quote in this book, saying

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that up until a few hundred years ago,

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the great commission was never mentioned

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ever. Like in the context of Christian

0:11:57
mission, there was not even just not an

0:11:59
emphasis on it. It was barely discussed.

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And so we have turned a commission from

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Jesus' mouth into the single

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all-encompassing great one. The heading

0:12:09
in my Bible calls it the great

0:12:12
commission. Respectfully, every command

0:12:15
that ever came out of Jesus' mouth was a

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great commission, including the command

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to love the poor, to love God, to love

0:12:24
neighbor, to do justice, to pray. All of

0:12:27
those are great commissions. And so our

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work can be a means of honoring him even

0:12:33
if quote unquote all it is doing is

0:12:36
loving our neighbors as ourselves which

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is the essence of servant leadership.

Excellence in Work

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Yeah. Uh in your book master of one

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which I know goes way back. Uh you talk

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about excellence in our work being one

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of the greatest ways to love your

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neighbors. Um, my dad growing up would

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always tell me, uh, if you're not going

0:12:57
to work harder than everyone else, don't

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tell people you're a Christian.

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Amen.

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Uh, and and I remember that being really

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meaningful to me and it changed how I

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viewed work and working hard and working

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to represent Christ well and all this

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stuff.

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But then I brought that up to other

0:13:13
people and other people are like, "Well,

0:13:15
that sounds terrible." Like, I don't

0:13:17
agree with that. How have you seen push

0:13:19
back and how have you had those

0:13:20
conversations with people because at

0:13:22
first it takes people back uh I think

0:13:24
when they hear stuff like that.

0:13:26
Yeah, it does. U but man, you you get

0:13:28
less push back than you think. I I I

0:13:31
think um we know intuitively in our

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bones that the ministry of excellence is

0:13:37
our most fundamental ministry. Nobody

0:13:41
cares what you believe until they know

0:13:44
that you care about them. You know how

0:13:46
you show that you care about them? You

0:13:47
make an exceptional cup of coffee. You

0:13:50
show unreasonable hospitality. You get

0:13:54
extraordinary results for your clients

0:13:57
and your customers. Right? I love how

0:13:59
Steve Martin put it once. He said, "Be

0:14:00
so good they can't ignore you." You want

0:14:03
to make Jesus winsome in the world.

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Listen, non-Christians could not care

0:14:07
less about Jesus. You know what they do

0:14:08
care about? Whether or not you can make

0:14:09
them money, whether or not you can serve

0:14:12
them well through your business. And if

0:14:14
you do that, oh man, they'll be eager to

0:14:17
hear about anything you have to say. I

0:14:19
tell this story um in I believe it was

0:14:22
the sacredness of secular work. My

0:14:23
friend Ron Johnson uh phenomenal

0:14:26
entrepreneur, Steve Jobs hired Ron uh to

0:14:29
create the Apple store. And Ron and

0:14:31
Steve had a close friendship throughout

0:14:33
their lives. And uh after Steve Jobs

0:14:36
found out that he had uh cancer, one of

0:14:39
his first calls was to Ron. And Steve

0:14:42
asked Ron, "Hey, please tell me what you

0:14:46
believe about eternity, about life after

0:14:48
this life." But guess what? Ron Johnson

0:14:51
would have never gotten that call had he

0:14:53
not been a master of his craft, right?

0:14:57
It was the ministry of excellence that

0:15:00
paved the way for the ministry of the

0:15:02
gospel. And I am so sick and tired. I

0:15:06
honestly Chris if I drive down if I'm in

0:15:08
a if if I'm coming to speak in Wheaten

0:15:11
where you're at right and I walk down

0:15:13
the street and I see a coffee shop where

0:15:15
all of the T's in their logo are crosses

0:15:19
I'm going to skip past the coffee shop

0:15:20
and go to the Starbucks across the

0:15:22
street because most of these businesses

0:15:24
are taking Jesus's name in vain. I would

0:15:27
argue using his name to sell product and

0:15:31
then failing to obey Jesus's command to

0:15:34
truly love their neighbor as themselves

0:15:36
when they deliver that product. We

0:15:38
should be ashamed of ourselves.

0:15:39
Christians should be known of creating

0:15:42
the best lattes, creating the best

0:15:44
processes, creating the best results for

0:15:46
our clients because we are called to

0:15:49
love our neighbor as ourselves. And the

0:15:51
ministry of excellence is practically

0:15:54
how we do it Monday through Friday.

Challenges in Maintaining Excellence

0:15:56
I don't think people start out trying to

0:15:58
do non-exellent work for the for the

0:16:01
bulk. They try to do excellence and then

0:16:03
somewhere along the way they get off the

0:16:04
rails. Uh talk about how that has shown

0:16:08
up because I know like your work has

0:16:09
continued to build on itself and you

0:16:11
talk about redeeming your time,

0:16:13
redeeming your goals. Like talk about

0:16:15
how people have kind of um just share

0:16:19
your thoughts on all of that.

0:16:21
Yeah, man. I I I I think I think it's

0:16:24
natural for all humans to coast, right?

0:16:27
Uh to plateau, to refuse to put more

0:16:31
weight on the bar. And in Master of One,

0:16:34
man, I studied all the academic

0:16:36
literature, all the business literature

0:16:37
on what leads to worldclass performance.

0:16:40
And a few things just kept showing up,

0:16:42
man. It was apprenticeships, right? And

0:16:45
that does not end, you know, when

0:16:46
you're, you know, out of your internship

0:16:48
in college. I am constantly apprenticing

0:16:51
to other people. Uh it is purposeful

0:16:54
practice, not naive practice. And

0:16:56
purposeful practice continues to put

0:16:57
more weight on the bar. And then number

0:16:59
three, it's discipline over the time.

0:17:00
Over time, it is saying, "Hey, I want to

0:17:03
get world class at this craft in service

0:17:05
of others. And because of that, I am

0:17:07
going to discipline myself to do it

0:17:09
well, to learn how to continue to do it

0:17:10
better."

0:17:11
And redeeming your time and redeeming

0:17:12
your goals really builds on that. Right?

0:17:15
Those books are are are helping me. that

0:17:18
there would have worked for me to look

0:17:20
at Jesus as a model for how to better

0:17:22
master my craft because I can't master

0:17:24
my craft if I'm not mastering my time.

0:17:27
And I can't master my time if I don't

0:17:29
have clarity around my goals and know

0:17:31
how to really go after them. And so,

0:17:33
yeah, man, I do think it's human nature

0:17:34
to coast, to settle, to um I don't know

0:17:39
because that's easier, right? Um, but if

0:17:42
I believe my work matters, then I will

0:17:45
be committed to the relentless pursuit

0:17:48
of better because I believe the work is

0:17:50
a means of loving my neighbor as myself.

Redeeming Time and Goals

0:17:53
What does it look like to redeem your

0:17:55
time or redeem your goals for somebody

0:17:57
who's listening to this? Because your

0:18:00
your book is just awesome. Uh, and it

0:18:05
walks through some really cool

0:18:07
principles that were really meaningful

0:18:08
to me at least.

0:18:09
Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Uh I don't even

0:18:13
know how to answer this question.

0:18:14
There's so much there. I I I'll give a

0:18:17
short answer here. Listen,

0:18:20
Christian or not,

0:18:23
I would challenge you to dispute this

0:18:26
claim that Jesus of Nazareth was the

0:18:28
most productive human being to ever walk

0:18:30
the earth.

0:18:32
2,000 years after his death, even if you

0:18:34
don't believe in his resurrection like I

0:18:36
do, 2,000 years after his death, a third

0:18:39
of the world claims to follow his

0:18:41
teachings, right? Time magazine has

0:18:43
called him not just person of the year,

0:18:46
but the most significant figure in all

0:18:49
human history. Take that Elon Musk and

0:18:51
Taylor Swift, right? And so, here's my

0:18:54
point.

0:18:55
Um, sure. We got a lot to learn from

0:18:58
friends of mine, business authors like

0:19:00
uh Cal Newport and John Auff and Jim

0:19:04
Collins and Andy Duke. I love these

0:19:06
friends. Right. But it is the height of

0:19:09
arrogance

0:19:11
not to learn from the most productive

0:19:14
human being to ever walk the earth. And

0:19:16
I've heard people say, "Well, we have no

0:19:18
idea how Jesus managed a 24-hour day. We

0:19:19
have no idea how Jesus pursued his

0:19:21
goals." Sure we do. We have four

0:19:23
biographies on his life. They're called

0:19:25
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They're

0:19:26
the first four books of the New

0:19:29
Testament of the Bible. And when we look

0:19:31
at the life of Jesus through those

0:19:34
biographical lenses, we see somebody who

0:19:37
is able to accomplish so much by the

0:19:39
world's standards, but more importantly,

0:19:42
more by God's standards. He was able to

0:19:46
crush his goals without his goals

0:19:49
crushing him. He was able to be wildly

0:19:52
productive without feeling wildly

0:19:56
hurried in his soul. That's what I want,

0:19:58
dude. Right? And so, listen, I'm happy

0:20:01
to continue to learn from other human

0:20:03
beings, but my first and ultimate guide

0:20:06
is going to be Jesus Christ, who I

0:20:08
believe was fully God and fully man. And

0:20:11
that's the premise of redeeming your

0:20:13
time and redeeming your goals. In each

0:20:15
book, I sketch out these seven timeless

0:20:18
principles from the life of Jesus as it

0:20:21
applies to time management and goal

0:20:22
setting. And then I map those principles

0:20:25
to dozens of totally optional, not in

0:20:28
the Bible, my practices for how to live

0:20:33
out those principles in our modern

0:20:35
context. That's the that's the core of

0:20:37
those books.

Principles for Goal Setting

0:20:39
Give us an example of one of those

0:20:40
principles of how to live it out.

0:20:42
Yeah. especially on the goal side

0:20:43
because that's on the newer side.

0:20:45
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Um so seven principles

0:20:47
in this book, a couple of my favorites,

0:20:49
um this this principle of baptizing your

0:20:52
imagination, right? I think most

0:20:53
people's goals are embarrassingly small

0:20:57
because they are looking in a mirror at

0:20:59
what they can do in their own strength.

0:21:01
But all throughout the gospels, Jesus is

0:21:03
baptizing the imagination of his

0:21:05
followers, asking them to look out a

0:21:08
window at what God can accomplish

0:21:10
through them. Right? And so I talk about

0:21:13
a bunch of different practical ways we

0:21:14
could do that in the book. Another one,

0:21:16
u this principle from redeeming your

0:21:18
goals of lightening your load. Right?

0:21:19
Throughout the gospels, we consistently

0:21:22
see Jesus saying no to good things so

0:21:25
that he could say yes to the most

0:21:28
essential things in his goals. We've got

0:21:31
to do the same. We got to lighten our

0:21:32
load by saying no to make room for the

0:21:37
best things on our list. And I'll just

0:21:39
share one of 58 practices in redeem your

0:21:41
goals that would help to that end. Um,

0:21:44
you know, one of the reasons why I think

0:21:46
we have a hard time saying no is that it

0:21:49
takes a whole lot longer to say no than

0:21:52
it does to say yes. Right? So if Chris

0:21:55
Lesner emails me, it's like, "Hey

0:21:57
Jordan, uh, will you go to dinner, you

0:21:59
know, tonight in Tampa?" It takes me one

0:22:01
second to say sure. It takes me 10

0:22:04
minutes to think about how to let Chris

0:22:06
down lightly. You know what I mean? And

0:22:08
so over the years, I've been developing

0:22:11
this template. No, that eliminates 90%

0:22:15
of the time it takes me to say no. It's

0:22:17
really, really simple. Here's the

0:22:19
template. Hey, I so wish I could insert

0:22:23
requests of the person. So, for Chris,

0:22:25
it' be, "Hey man, sorry I can't join you

0:22:26
at Chili's tonight. I'm sorry. Uh, but

0:22:28
unfortunately, my schedule's fully

0:22:30
committed right now. I simply can't say

0:22:31
yes to you and still make good on the

0:22:34
commitments that I've already made to

0:22:35
others." That said, I'd be more than

0:22:39
happy to insert small alternative,

0:22:42
right? So, hey Chris, be more than happy

0:22:44
to hop on Zoom and do a virtual coffee

0:22:46
next week. Right? Really, really, really

0:22:48
simple template. I send it all the time.

0:22:52
And guess what? It's never met with

0:22:54
hostility. I've never had anybody say to

0:22:56
my face, "Man, you're such a jerk for

0:22:58
telling me no." You know what I do hear

0:23:00
a lot of though? Dude, I want to say no

0:23:03
like you do. I want to say no more

0:23:05
often. I want to say no more generously.

0:23:08
And that template inside of Redeem Your

0:23:10
Goals is a really, really great place to

0:23:13
start. Of course, customize it, make it

0:23:15
your own. I've refined mine over the

0:23:17
years, but that's the template that's

0:23:19
allowing me to say no in the spirit of

0:23:22
lightening my load so that I can make

0:23:24
maximum progress in my goals like Jesus

0:23:26
did.

Identifying Great vs. Good

0:23:27
That's so good. One of my favorite books

0:23:30
is Screw Tape Letters by CS Lewis. And

0:23:33
and one of the things it talks about, as

0:23:35
you know, is like keep them busy and

0:23:37
keep them thinking that things are going

0:23:39
really good to keep them away from the

0:23:42
great things that God has called them to

0:23:43
do.

0:23:44
Yeah.

0:23:44
How have you tried to explain to people

0:23:46
that maybe what they're doing is really

0:23:48
good and maybe it seems really good and

0:23:50
it's what they're being told to do, but

0:23:52
it's not the great things that maybe God

0:23:54
has in store for them.

0:23:56
Man, gosh, that's a really, really good

0:23:59
question. Um, I don't know that I would

0:24:02
be prescripted to somebody like that.

0:24:04
Here's why.

0:24:06
Because

0:24:08
I I think the God of the Bible gives his

0:24:11
children a whole lot of freedom to

0:24:14
discern what they're going to be chasing

0:24:16
after. So, I'm going to focus on my

0:24:19
to-do list, what I think is essential

0:24:22
and what's not, and leave it to you to

0:24:24
decide what's essential for you. That

0:24:27
said, that's it. Uh there's one

0:24:29
exception to this and it's what I call

0:24:31
my stopd doing meeting that I have found

0:24:34
terrifically valuable over the years. So

0:24:36
here's the deal, right? Like I'm really

0:24:39
bad at discerning the great things from

0:24:43
the good things on my to-do list and my

0:24:44
calendar because I'm in the weeds of my

0:24:46
own life and work. So roughly once a

0:24:49
quarter, I will trade laptops with my VP

0:24:52
of marketing, right? or my wife and

Reviewing To-Do Lists

0:24:57
we will review each other's to-do lists to

0:25:00
make recommendations for what the other

0:25:02
person should drop because it's good but

0:25:04
it's not great. I love this practice,

Importance of Feedback

0:25:08
right? Because I think everything's

0:25:09
important. I think everything is a great

0:25:11
use of my time. When I get a little bit

0:25:13
of distance with a partner who

0:25:16
understands my goals and can lovingly

0:25:18
but courageously tell me what's great

0:25:21
and what's good, man, it's an absolute

0:25:23
game changer. Wow. It obviously you've

Reflecting on Past Beliefs

0:25:26
been writing for a long time. You have a

0:25:28
lot of business experience before you

0:25:30
even started writing.

Leadership Principles Evolution

0:25:31
I'm sure there are things that 10 years

0:25:33
ago or 20 years ago you thought were

0:25:37
absolute gold leadership principles that

0:25:39
[laughter] now you've kind of like

0:25:40
you've realized maybe there's another

0:25:42
way. [snorts] What what is something

0:25:44
that you feel like, hey, I was here and

0:25:46
now I realize maybe I was wrong on this

0:25:48
and maybe that'll resonate with what

0:25:50
people they can go down that same

0:25:52
journey. That is a phenomenal question.

Writing Retractions

0:25:55
That is a phen phenomenal question. I'm

0:25:57
actually thinking about uh writing a

0:25:59
devotional series in the next few months

0:26:01
on retractions of like it's crazy to me

0:26:05
that authors don't print retractions. If

0:26:07
the if if whatever your favorite author

0:26:09
is doesn't disagree with something they

0:26:10
wrote 10 years ago, they haven't learned

0:26:12
anything in the last 10 years, right?

0:26:14
Like it's the stupidest thing I've ever

0:26:15
heard. Um all right. A leadership

Showing Vulnerability

0:26:18
principle that I believed 10 years ago

0:26:20
that I no longer

0:26:23
Yeah. Um,

0:26:28
I used to believe

0:26:31
that it was always weakness to show my

0:26:34
weakness. That it was always a poor

0:26:38
stewardship of my leadership role to

0:26:42
show stress, to show fear, to show

0:26:46
anxiety. And listen, there are certainly

0:26:48
times when it is. I do not think um as

0:26:51
the leader of an organization you should

0:26:53
share all your stress, all your anxiety,

0:26:55
all your fears with all of your team. I

0:26:56
think that's pretty stupid. But I do

0:26:58
think this truth is nuanced, right? I do

0:27:01
think there are times when your team

0:27:03
needs to see your concern, needs to see

0:27:07
your fear, needs to see you doubting,

0:27:10
needs to see your weakness, and know

0:27:13
that it's okay to feel those things and

0:27:16
press forward anyway. So that's one

Incentive Compensation Critique

0:27:18
thing. Number two, a little bit more

0:27:20
practically, I used to think incentive

0:27:22
compensation was the greatest thing in

0:27:23
the world and would incentivize my sales

0:27:25
teams accordingly. I now think it's like

0:27:27
one of the stupidest things in the

0:27:28
world. I I I think it's really dumb. Uh

0:27:31
and so I refuse to do it. I don't do

0:27:33
incentive comp. Reed Hastings, one of

0:27:35
the uh founders of Netflix, convinced me

0:27:38
of this in his book, No Rules Rules.

0:27:40
You and I want to hire A players. A

0:27:42
players are intrinsically motivated.

0:27:44
They do not work harder if they've got a

0:27:47
bonus tied to it, but they will work

0:27:49
with more stress

Reevaluating Leadership

0:27:52
if they can't show up to work and not

0:27:54
worry about, man, if I don't get this

0:27:57
bonus, gosh, things are going to be

0:27:59
really tight at home. So, I just don't

0:28:01
believe in incentive comp anymore.

0:28:03
That's a very controversial take. Uh,

0:28:05
but that's something I've reversed

0:28:06
course on.

Rethinking Team Structure

0:28:07
I like that. Now, I'm trying to think

0:28:08
through our team structure on a few.

0:28:10
[laughter]

0:28:11
I'm like, "Huh, I should probably

0:28:12
consider that." uh on the retracting

0:28:15
something that that made me think of and

0:28:16
you mentioned Jim Collins who I know you

0:28:19
know well uh even last week I was

0:28:22
listening to Jim and he was talking

0:28:24
about how level five leaders in his book

0:28:26
Good to Great, he used to think that 10

0:28:28
or 20% of people at most would ever be a

0:28:30
level five leader and now in his new

0:28:32
book he wrote uh most recently that just

0:28:35
came out this year I think um he thinks

0:28:37
at least 80% of people have the capacity

0:28:39
to become level five leaders and it's

0:28:41
like yeah I I think that that's so

0:28:43
important and I love when we can step

0:28:45
back and reframe and be like, "Okay,

0:28:47
here's where I was and it made sense of

0:28:49
that time, but I've learned a lot along

0:28:50
the way." Hopefully, we're all

0:28:51
developing somewhere for the better.

Chasing Eternal Rewards

0:28:53
Yeah.

0:28:54
Um,

0:28:54
well, I'll give you I'll give you one

0:28:55
more very, very quick one.

0:28:57
Yeah.

0:28:57
I in sacredness, um,

0:29:01
you know, basically said, "Hey, listen.

0:29:03
It's a really good idea for a Christian

0:29:04
to to chase after eternal rewards." I'd

0:29:08
rewrite that. It's not a really good

0:29:10
idea. It's a command.

0:29:12
It's a command from Jesus Christ, right?

0:29:15
Christians feel queasy about chasing

0:29:17
after eternal rewards. I would argue

0:29:20
that that's to bring a pretty serious

0:29:22
accusation against Jesus Christ because

0:29:24
he commanded roughly 20 times in the

0:29:27
gospels that you and I chase after

0:29:29
eternal treasure, eternal rewards. Why?

0:29:32
Because he knows we're going to chase

0:29:34
after something, either rewards in this

0:29:35
life or the next. And I know I don't

0:29:37
know about you, Chris, but I would much

0:29:39
rather chase rewards that are going to

0:29:40
last for eternity.

Understanding Eternal Rewards

0:29:42
Give us some examples of when you say

0:29:44
eternal rewards. Yeah.

0:29:45
What does that mean to the average

0:29:47
listener today and how does it apply to

0:29:49
them?

0:29:49
Yeah, it depends on your theology,

0:29:51
right? But Jesus is very very explicit

0:29:54
about a few types of eternal rewards. Um

0:29:58
he says that when we pray that when we

0:30:00
obey his commands, there are treasures

0:30:02
in heaven. I don't know what that means.

0:30:04
uh I don't know how you interpret that

0:30:06
but there's treasures in heaven. He also

0:30:08
says there are increased job

0:30:09
responsibilities

0:30:12
in eternity. And this will come as a

0:30:14
shock to many of our listeners, but

0:30:17
God's plan for heaven is not for heaven

0:30:19
to stay in the clouds. It's to bring

0:30:21
heaven to earth. And heaven will not be

0:30:23
an endless worship service, but endless

0:30:26
worship through service and the work of

0:30:28
our hands. And Jesus made very clear in

0:30:30
the parable of the minus that some of us

0:30:33
will lead and others will follow on that

0:30:35
new earth. We're all going to long enjoy

0:30:37
the work of our hands. Isaiah 65 says,

0:30:39
but we will have varying levels of

0:30:41
responsibility based on how we work and

0:30:45
steward this life. And so, dude, like

0:30:48
I'm happy to be a servant leader in this

0:30:49
life. I'd much rather be a servant

0:30:51
leader for billions and billions and

0:30:54
billions of years. And so, I'm trying to

0:30:58
steward my work today in a way that will

0:31:01
maximize those eternal rewards. How do

0:31:04
we do that? How do we earn those eternal

0:31:06
rewards? And just to be clear, I'm not

0:31:08
talking about earning your spot in

0:31:10
heaven. That is impossible. Right? We

0:31:12
are saved by grace through faith.

0:31:14
Period. Full stop. There's nothing we do

0:31:17
to earn our salvation. We simply must

0:31:19
declare with our mouth, Jesus is Lord

0:31:21
and the boss of our life and believe in

0:31:23
our hearts that God raised him from the

0:31:24
dead. See, Romans 10:9. You got me

0:31:26
preaching now, Chris. I apologize.

Accumulating Eternal Rewards

0:31:28
Right. I love it. love it.

0:31:30
But but the rewards we enjoy for

0:31:33
eternity

0:31:35
are based on our good works in this

0:31:38
life. And there's many things that Jesus

0:31:40
says will trigger those rewards. But to

0:31:43
sum it up really, really, really

0:31:44
tightly, Paul says, and I think it's

0:31:46
Ephesians 6:8, God will reward you for

0:31:49
whatever good you do in this life.

0:31:51
Basically, anytime you obey God's

0:31:53
commands rather than sin and do things

0:31:56
selfishly, you are accumulating eternal

0:32:00
rewards. And Chris's are going to look

0:32:02
different than mine. Chris, you're

0:32:03
probably going to have a lot more than I

0:32:04
am, man. So, I'm looking forward to

0:32:06
hanging out at your house on the new

0:32:07
Earth.

Balancing Rewards and Faith

0:32:08
So, I mean, I I love what you're talking

0:32:11
about. uh minus me having more rewards

0:32:13
than you, but the uh but thinking about

0:32:15
the rewards, the eternal rewards, how do

0:32:18
you keep in mind that the eternal

0:32:22
rewards? And I'm thinking back to just

0:32:23
how it's talked about in scripture, the

0:32:25
point of the jewels, the point of the

0:32:27
eternal rewards are then to also lay

0:32:30
them down at Jesus' feet. So, how do you

0:32:33
balance this?

0:32:34
I want to work for eternal rewards, but

0:32:36
also not making it about the

0:32:39
rewards. It's about Jesus.

0:32:41
How do you There's there's nuance here,

0:32:43
Chris.

Storing Treasures in Heaven

0:32:45
I agree with you. There's there's

0:32:46
biblical language that talks about

0:32:48
another reward are these crowns of

0:32:50
believers throwing their crowns down at

0:32:52
the feet of Jesus. But there's also

0:32:55
Jesus's words where he commanded, what

0:32:57
did he say? Store up for yourelves

0:33:04
treasures in heaven. Here's what I think

0:33:07
is going to happen. When we see Jesus on

0:33:09
the new earth, we're going to take

0:33:11
whatever rewards we got and we're going

0:33:12
to throw them all at his feet because he

0:33:15
alone is worthy of all of the praise and

0:33:19
all of the honor and all of the glory

0:33:21
forever and ever.

0:33:23
But I think based on his command to

0:33:25
store for yourselves treasures in

0:33:26
heaven, I think Jesus is going to take

0:33:28
some of those rewards and put it back in

0:33:30
our hands back. No, you keep it. And I

0:33:31
think we do keep it, right? I and we put

0:33:35
those treasures on a shelf on our home

0:33:36
on the new earth or we're engaged in

0:33:38
that job, that leadership position uh

0:33:40
Jesus gives us on the new earth to lead.

0:33:43
I think those rewards are always going

0:33:46
to be reminders because scriptur is very

0:33:49
clear. We're going to remember this

0:33:50
life. We're going to remember this age.

0:33:52
I think every time we see the treasure,

0:33:54
every time we engage in the job, they're

0:33:55
going to serve as a reminder that

0:33:56
whatever we gave up in this life for the

0:34:00
sake of Christ was way, way, way more

0:34:03
than worth it.

Discussing Eternal Rewards

0:34:05
Yeah, it it's interesting. And I know

0:34:08
some people here are going to be totally

0:34:09
on board with what you're saying and

0:34:11
some are going to be like, "Okay, this

0:34:13
is a crazy conversation." Correct. Uh

0:34:15
we're one of the episodes I don't know

0:34:18
if it's before you or after you uh but

0:34:20
is Randy Alorn and he wrote a great book

0:34:22
on heaven. You know when you think

0:34:25
through for somebody who thinks okay

0:34:26
what Jordan is talking about is absolute

0:34:28
craziness. Uh I don't know what he's

0:34:31
talking about. What do you even

0:34:32
recommend they do to start thinking

0:34:34
about what's the purpose of life for

0:34:37
themselves and what does it look like

0:34:40
after? Yeah, it's a really great

0:34:42
question. And first of all, I got to say

0:34:44
Randy is a dear friend uh and wrote the

0:34:46
best endorsement uh I've ever read in my

0:34:49
life for the synchronous secular work

0:34:51
where where a lot of this is coming

0:34:53
from. Um here's what I would tell you. A

0:34:56
lot of what I'm saying sounds crazy to

0:34:58
some of our listeners. I would submit

0:35:01
that a lot of the things we talk about

0:35:02
in Christian culture are what's crazy

0:35:05
and new. But don't take my word for it.

0:35:07
Please don't take my word for it. check

0:35:09
every single one of my words against

0:35:12
God's good and perfect work. He is the

0:35:14
final authority. I've had so many

0:35:17
people, I cannot tell you, Chris, how

0:35:19
many people have come to me and be like,

0:35:20
"Dude, I heard you talk about the new

0:35:22
earth and eternal rewards and I thought

0:35:24
you were crazy, but then like I don't

0:35:27
know, man, like I went and I engaged

0:35:29
with the scripture and like this is

0:35:31
bulletproof.

0:35:32
This is bulletproof." Like you're right.

0:35:34
It's been there all along and I've

0:35:37
missed it. And let me try to make this

0:35:38
practically relevant for our lives

0:35:40
today. Like why does all of this matter

0:35:43
here in 2026? And this is deeply

0:35:46
connected to the idea of redeeming your

0:35:48
goals.

Living with Eternal Perspective

0:35:49
Here's the deal.

0:35:51
If this life is my only chance to pursue

0:35:56
every dream that God gives me, to travel

0:35:59
the world, to experience the best things

0:36:02
of this earth, there's no way I'm going

0:36:05
to fully lose my life for the sake of

0:36:07
others. I'm going to waste this life on

0:36:10
my stupid bucket list because Satan has

0:36:12
convinced me it's now or never, baby, to

0:36:15
get it all right. And I'm also, it's

0:36:18
going to be really, really, really,

0:36:19
really hard for me to say no to some of

0:36:22
the dreams on my to-do list because

0:36:24
every time I consider dropping a dream

0:36:26
of writing that book or launching that

0:36:29
podcast or starting a business with my

0:36:32
kids, every time I think about dropping

0:36:34
that thing I know I need to drop but

0:36:36
can't quite do it, I'm subconsciously

0:36:38
trying to decide if I am going to drop

0:36:40
it forever.

Trusting God's Timing

0:36:42
Right? But if God's word is true,

0:36:44
spoiler alert, it is. and we're going to

0:36:46
have all of eternity to quote long enjoy

0:36:49
the work of our hands. That's Isaiah

0:36:51
65:17-22

0:36:53
if you want to look it up. Then I can be

0:36:55
at peace with the fact that I will die

0:36:57
with unfinished symphonies on my to-do

0:36:59
list. Because if the things on my to-do

0:37:01
list are on God's to-do list, one of

0:37:03
three things is going to happen when I

0:37:04
die. Number one, God's going to tap

0:37:06
somebody else to do the work because I'm

0:37:08
not that special and neither are you.

0:37:10
Number two, he's gonna finish the work

0:37:12
without any human involvement because he

0:37:14
doesn't need us to do anything. Or

0:37:16
number three,

0:37:18
God will invite me to complete that work

0:37:21
when I arise from the nap that is death

0:37:25
on the new earth. And either way,

0:37:28
blessed be the name of the Lord. Right?

0:37:30
And this truth has been so freeing for

0:37:32
me. Years ago, I I created a folder in

0:37:35
my to-do list in my commitment tracking

0:37:37
system. I now have three folders. This

0:37:39
week, this quarter, and someday maybe

0:37:42
slashnew Earth.

Organizing Goals and Priorities

0:37:45
Serious. It took me five seconds to do

0:37:47
this. And every day when I see that

0:37:50
folder, I'm reminded that all of these

0:37:53
things I want to do, all of these things

0:37:56
that I want to experience, they can wait

0:37:59
because I got billions of years to do it

0:38:02
free from the curse of sin with my

0:38:04
savior in the resurrected flesh.

Setting Long-Term Goals

0:38:08
I love that. I'm interested, you know,

0:38:11
in the next five or 10 years, you've got

0:38:14
a lot of goals and I know you talk about

0:38:16
this and people have a lot of goals and

0:38:18
at the same time they might hear what

0:38:19
you're saying and think through, well, I

0:38:21
have all the time in the world to do it.

0:38:22
Don't need to do it now.

0:38:23
Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:24
How do you think through what goes in

0:38:27
those in those three folders?

Filtering Goals

0:38:28
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My goals are the

0:38:30
filter, man. And when you say I have a

0:38:31
lot of goals, I actually don't. Right.

0:38:33
So I have one big insane audacious

0:38:39
long-term goal personally and profess

0:38:41
professionally at a time. That's it.

0:38:43
Those goals span one to five years.

0:38:45
Down from that every quarter [snorts]

0:38:48
I have shortterm goals that are

0:38:50
connected to those long-term goals and

0:38:53
that's what dictates what gets in those

0:38:55
folders in my to-do list. It's very very

0:38:57
very simple, right? I've got my lifetime

0:39:00
goal becoming like Christ. I got my

0:39:02
long-term goal personally and

0:39:03
professionally. I got my short-term

0:39:04
goals. And then everything in my to-do

0:39:06
list, if it's not aligned with the

0:39:08
status quo of my business, the whirlwind

0:39:11
as the authors of 40X called it, or

0:39:13
align with my short-term goals, it

0:39:15
doesn't go in my this quarter folder.

0:39:16
Period.

Quarterly Goal Setting

0:39:17
Just doesn't go there. And once every 90

0:39:19
days, I take a quarterly retreat to

0:39:20
measure my goals, set new goals for the

0:39:22
next quarter, worship, whatever. That's

0:39:24
when I decide once I've set those new

0:39:26
short-term goals for the next 90 days,

0:39:28
what do I pull out of that someday maybe

0:39:30
new earth folder and what do I keep out

0:39:32
of sight, out of mind so that I could

0:39:34
focus on the goals at hand?

Book Recommendations

0:39:36
So, when we're linking for people who

0:39:39
are listening, when we're linking to

0:39:40
show notes and to books you've written,

0:39:42
the best book to help them walk through

0:39:45
those is that redeeming your goals.

0:39:47
It really is. is I mean redeem your

0:39:49
goals is the uh baby of sacred to

0:39:53
secular work. Redeem your top all the

0:39:55
practical stuff and all the theological

0:39:57
stuff is baked together in this one

0:40:00
package called redeem your goals. I

0:40:02
think the vast majority of books should

0:40:05
have been blog posts. I try to make sure

0:40:07
that every single chapter I write is

0:40:10
more valuable than the most valuable

0:40:12
book you read this year. It is

0:40:14
jam-packed with theology and practice to

0:40:17
help us achieve our goals the way Jesus

0:40:20
achieved his. It's redeem your goals.

0:40:21
It's out October 13th.

Aligning Time and Goals

0:40:23
I love that. So, we're definitely going

0:40:25
to be linking to that so that people can

0:40:27
check it out because I think a lot of

0:40:28
people are going to hear this and

0:40:29
they're going to be inspired. But then

0:40:30
it's then what? And I think the thing

0:40:33
that you have is years of practice doing

0:40:37
the saying no to things that don't

0:40:39
align. I think the hardest part is a lot

0:40:42
of our time is not our own and people

0:40:43
take advantage of it and it's like oh

0:40:45
man how do we actually align and then we

0:40:47
get nothing done and I think this is

0:40:49
where it's cool because people have uh

0:40:52
like a framework to actually figure out

0:40:54
what's important to me how do I break it

0:40:57
down and how do I make sure that

0:40:58
everything I'm doing is pushing that

0:40:59
most important thing forward

Value for Non-Entrepreneurs

0:41:01
even if you're not an entrepreneur by

0:41:03
the way right so lots of people who work

0:41:05
for other people have already read this

0:41:07
book early copies of it and gotten a

0:41:09
phenomenal amount of value because

0:41:11
listen, I got a lot of discretion over

0:41:13
my goals. You might not, but you don't

0:41:15
have no discretion, right? Especially

0:41:17
especially regarding how to get them

0:41:19
done. This book, I promise, will serve

0:41:21
you in that context. If if if

0:41:23
you're not willing to look to Jesus as a

0:41:25
guide, this book is not for you. It's

0:41:27
not for you. He's on almost every page.

0:41:30
But if you are, if you're willing to

0:41:33
accept the premise that Jesus is the

0:41:35
most productive person by the world's

0:41:37
standards and by God's, this is the book

0:41:39
for you.

Understanding Work's Sacredness

0:41:40
I love that. One of the other things I

0:41:42
think just a chime for one of your other

0:41:45
books that I think is interesting for

0:41:46
people who might be like, "Hey, well

0:41:47
that book's not for me then."

0:41:49
Yeah.

0:41:49
Sacredness of work.

0:41:51
Yeah.

0:41:52
Is really well written by you. Uh, and I

0:41:55
think that it helps people understand

0:41:58
why their work matters because a lot of

0:42:01
us are showing up to work and it's we

0:42:03
are working to live. We're not living to

0:42:05
work. And that book helps reframe a lot

0:42:07
of the hey, there's an opportunity for

0:42:10
you to live to work and love it.

0:42:12
Absolutely love it.

Exploring Work's Purpose

0:42:14
Yeah. The sacred the sacredness of

0:42:15
secular work is my deepest dive on why

0:42:18
your work matters. You get the two-page

0:42:21
version of it in redeeming your goals,

0:42:23
right? They're very very very tight

0:42:24
subs. So if you want the cliff notes of

0:42:26
that message, it's in redeem your goals.

0:42:28
If you want the fuller treatment, it's

0:42:29
the sacredness of secular work. Yeah.

Rapidfire Questions

0:42:31
Yeah. I love that. All right. I want to

0:42:33
finish with 10 rapidfire questions.

0:42:35
I love it. Let's go.

Servant Leadership Inspiration

0:42:37
First person you think of when I say

0:42:38
servant leadership.

0:42:43
Um Cheryl Bachelder.

0:42:45
Oh, love Cheryl. Uh

Book Recommendations

0:42:48
book or author you most recommend?

0:42:51
Tim Keller. Easy.

Personal Preferences

0:42:53
Favorite food?

0:42:55
Chinese food.

Alternate Career Choice

0:42:57
Favorite vocation that if you could do

0:42:59
anything else you would choose to do,

0:43:02
it has to be something else.

0:43:03
Yeah, it has to be something else,

0:43:05
man. [laughter]

0:43:07
Cuz I know you love what you do.

0:43:08
I wouldn't mind being a travel planner.

0:43:11
Like I love like planning trips for my

0:43:13
friends and Yeah, that that sounds fun.

Travel Preferences

0:43:15
All right. Favorite place you've been

0:43:16
then?

0:43:17
Quebec City.

0:43:18
All right. Is there anywhere you want to

0:43:20
go that you have not been to yet?

0:43:22
Many, but I will not make it in this

0:43:24
life likely. I'm not kidding. I think I

0:43:27
got billions of years to do it. I'm

0:43:28
good.

Hobbies and Interests

0:43:29
All right. Favorite thing to do in your

0:43:30
free time.

0:43:32
Oh, this is so lame. Read.

0:43:35
Read and watch TV. I love TV. TV is my

0:43:38
favorite medium on the planet.

Surprising Facts

0:43:39
What's a surprising fact about you then?

0:43:43
[laughter]

0:43:45
Um,

0:43:46
I'm not going to say what first came to

0:43:48
mind. Surprising

0:43:51
fact about me. Um,

0:43:55
I don't know. I I got to spend some time

0:43:59
interning the Bush White House in 2006.

0:44:01
That was pretty fun. Pretty surprising,

0:44:03
especially since politics plays zero

0:44:07
role in my life today. That's a surprise

0:44:10
to people who who just meet Jordan Rener

0:44:12
in 2026.

Best Advice Received

0:44:14
Love that. Uh best advice you've ever

0:44:17
received.

0:44:19
There's never

0:44:21
ne there's no amount of success that

0:44:23
will be enough ever to fill that

0:44:25
God-shaped void inside of your heart. It

0:44:28
is only once you rest in your secure

0:44:32
status as a beloved child of God,

0:44:34
irregardless of success, irregardless of

0:44:36
productivity, that you can be content

0:44:38
with any level of success.

Importance of Servant Leadership

0:44:40
I love that. All right. Finally, podcast

0:44:43
on servant leadership. Why do you think

0:44:45
people should care about becoming better

0:44:47
servant leaders?

0:44:49
Because [snorts] this is the thing we

0:44:50
were made to do. This is the thing we

0:44:52
were made to do. We were made to work.

0:44:55
It was the first job God gave us in the

0:44:58
beginning to work and to lead. Adam and

0:45:00
Eve were leading the most cosmic project

0:45:04
of all time. The extension of God's

0:45:06
kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. But

0:45:10
we were never meant to do it in a way

0:45:12
that oppressed people, exploited people.

0:45:15
It was always in service of other image

0:45:18
bears. Sin has made that hard on this

0:45:20
side of Genesis 3. But man, this is

0:45:22
still the vocation that we are called

0:45:24
to. It's the vocation that Christ

0:45:26
modeled for us during his time on earth.

0:45:29
And this is this is the thing you were

0:45:30
made for. And oh, by the way, it's the

0:45:33
thing that if your faith is in Jesus

0:45:36
Christ, you're going to be doing forever

0:45:38
and ever.

Closing Remarks

0:45:39
Wow. Well, Jordan, thank you for being

0:45:41
on the podcast. Uh, I'm a fan,

0:45:43
obviously. I'm excited to go through so

0:45:46
many new books that I know you're going

0:45:48
to write in the future as well to help

0:45:50
us keep getting better.

0:45:51
Chris, thanks for having me.

0:45:53
Thank you for listening to this episode

0:45:55
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

0:45:58
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

0:46:00
it a thumbs up [music] and leave a

0:46:01
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0:46:11
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0:46:12
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