Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast we welcome Gene Habecker, author and former president of Taylor University and the American Bible Society. Gene led Taylor for eleven years and Huntington University for a decade before that. At the American Bible Society he chaired a global operation working in more than 150 countries, and he’s the author of books like Rediscovering the Soul of Leadership and The Softer Side of Leadership. Gene shares how he keeps a group of people he calls trusted truth tellers, people he has invited into his life specifically to tell him what he can’t see about himself. Join us as Gene and I talk through the real difference between leadership and servant leadership, what he calls your personal trust account and how leaders make deposits and withdrawals from it, and why practicing presence with people matters more than most leaders realize.
Episode Transcript
Candidate Selection Insight
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We invited uh this candidate home, the
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finalist that I was already offered the
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job to. And so we got finished dinner
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and I I was very eager to get her input.
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I said, “Okay, sweetheart, what do you
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think?” And her response to me, “He will
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never work out.”
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And I was to be to be truthful I was
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kind of upset like we have spent with a
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team of smart bright people
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two three two or three days interviewing
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this candidate and you have met this
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person once.
Introducing Gene Habecker
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Today on the servant leadership podcast,
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we welcome Gan Ha Becker, author and
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former president of Taylor University
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and the American Bible Society.
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Gene led Taylor for 11 years and
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Huntington University for a decade
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before that. At the American Bible
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Society, he chaired a global operation
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working in more than 150 countries. And
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he’s the author of books like
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Rediscovering the Soul of Leadership and
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[music] The Softer Side of Leadership.
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Gan shares how he keeps a group of
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people he [music] calls trusted truth
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tellers. People he has invited into his
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life specifically to tell him what he
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can’t see about himself.
Leadership vs. Servant Leadership
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Join us as Gene and I talk through the
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real difference between leadership and
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servant leadership. What he calls your
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personal trust account [music] and how
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leaders make deposits and withdrawals
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from it and why practicing presence with
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people matters more than most leaders
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[music] realize. Also, before we dive
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in, make sure to give this episode a
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like and subscribe or follow the show so
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you don’t miss the next conversation.
Welcome Gene Habecker
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Jean, welcome to the Servant Leadership
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Podcast.
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Thanks, Chris. Great to be here with
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you.
Gene’s Leadership Journey
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This is so special because I learned
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servant leadership under your
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leadership. Uh, you were president of
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Taylor University when I went there in
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undergrad. Um, but before that, you had
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a long career, multiple decades of
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leading major organizations. Uh, could
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you share some of that background with
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us and just let listeners know some of
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your leadership journey?
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Well, I’ve I’ve been privileged and
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grateful. I’ve had 35 years of service
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as a CEO,
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uh, 10 years as president CEO of
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Huntington University.
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And then Mary Lou and I shifted to
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Manhattan, New York City, which was
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another whole experience because we love
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that city and and love the people of New
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York where I served as president CEO of
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the American Bible Society. And it was
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from that position that we returned to
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serve for another 11 years as president
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CEO of Taylor University. So hopefully
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I’ve been a learner. Hopefully I know a
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little bit more about servant leadership
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now than I did in my first presidency
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because the future belongs to the
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learning, not to the learned. And so
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hopefully today I’m I’m still a learner
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and and trying to figure out and
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understand better what that means.
Transitioning Between Roles
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Well, it’s interesting in all three of
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those roles, running Huntington, running
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uh American Bible Society, and at
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Taylor, you had what most people would
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consider their dream job, and you had
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three different people’s dream jobs. Uh
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what was it like getting into those
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roles? Were those your dream roles? And
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how did you transition out into new
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roles? Because those obviously
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Huntington and Taylor are pretty
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similar, but American Bible Society,
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that’s a different jump in there.
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Yeah, great question. Uh my assumption
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was that I would be in higher education
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leadership. I did a PhD at the
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University of Michigan Ann Arbor uh in
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organizational behavior and and uh
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leadership in the context of higher ed.
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So I figured that would be kind of like
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the space where I would occupy a lot of
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my time. And so after really 20 years in
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in higher ed, I got this knock on the
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door while I’m serving as a visiting uh
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scholar at Regent College in Vancouver,
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British Columbia. And and the message
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was kind of like uh the American Bible
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Society is looking for a new president
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CEO. Uh we think you might uh be a good
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candidate for that. Would you be willing
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to take a look at it? And of course, it
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was so outside
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of my past experience. My immediate
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response was, “No, I’m enjoying higher
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education at that point.” But the
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question then came, would you be willing
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to pray about it? Well, how do you say
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no as a Christ follower to say, “No, I’m
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not going to pray about it.” And in the
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course of the next two years, you know,
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God opened the door and to a whole new
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experience that I couldn’t have
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imagined. I mean, I travel had the
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opportunity to travel in over a 100
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countries. You know, I would be in
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London for meetings, for board meetings,
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uh, six times a year, you know, when the
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immigration officers knew my name, you
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know, when I came through the line, I I
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knew I was spending maybe more time on
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the road that I could, but but it was I
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mean, it was part of what God used to
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prepare for the transition 14 years
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later to Taylor. And as you know as a
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student there that whole focus on
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international global education was part
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of our passion because we we’d been to
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all those countries and multiple times
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and experienced uh the reality of God’s
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uh God’s world in ways that we hadn’t
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before and we Marylu and I really wanted
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Taylor students and the Taylor faculty
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to have that experience and of course
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that began the Spencer Center for Global
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Engagement and some of the other
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initiatives that we uh had the
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opportunity to start there. So, so yeah,
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that was really an outside the box one.
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But in terms of of leadership, my focus
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there was I was president CEO of the
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American Bible Society, but during that
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tenure, I also spent some time as chair
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of the board of the global, you know,
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uh, operation that we worked in 150 plus
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countries. So I had I was busy I was
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busy organizationally but I wasn’t
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really focused as much as I would have
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liked to have been on developing the
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next generation of leaders and and that
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was really the thing that began to
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you know grip our hearts is God that
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that’s really what we need to be doing
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and of course when the opportunity came
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at Taylor it was like a wide openen uh
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door for us to do that to be involved
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with students which as you know was one
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of the things that we really focused our
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a lot of time and attention on. You
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know, we loved working with the faculty,
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loved working with, you know, those who
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were investors uh in the institution as
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donors, alumni, faculty, but our heart
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really uh was oriented towards okay, how
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can we serve students? That that was
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really what how can we help them get it
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right uh for the next generation. Well,
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I remember it it almost seemed like the
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doors to your house, which you had a a
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house on campus, it seemed like those
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were never locked and it was always open
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and it was always full. Uh I I don’t
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even know how you managed to run all the
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donor relationships, the staffing
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relationships, all the students that you
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were involved with. How did you even
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like physically there’s not enough time
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to do the things that I saw you doing.
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Uh how did you manage that as a leader
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and not burn out?
Balancing Leadership Responsibilities
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Well, I have to give credit to Marylu
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for that. She she was my partner and of
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course everyone referred to me as Dr. H
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or something like that. Hopefully
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respectful names but for her for she for
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Mary Lou was just her Mary Lou.
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Everybody knew Mary Lou and she had that
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incredible gift still does that
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incredible gift of hospitality
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and her comment was you know when I was
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a student at Taylor we never knew what
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went on in that house. We want it to be
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like a living room for the campus. And
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so one of the first things that we had
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done was build a sidewalk right from the
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main part of the campus to our back
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door. And probably on a given year, we’d
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have between three and 4 thousand
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students in our home uh annually. And
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I’d have I’d tell people I had two jobs.
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I had my day job, you know, which was
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during the day and then I go home and
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hang out with students. Uh, and so, you
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know, residence halls, clubs, athletic
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teams, uh, various groupings, and it it
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was something that we just relished and
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really, really enjoyed.
Defining Servant Leadership
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Talk about, we talk a lot about servant
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leadership on this podcast and you
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actually have written books on servant
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leadership. Taylor’s whole motto was
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servant leadership. uh what’s the
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difference between leadership and
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servant leadership and could you try to
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define both of those differently?
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Well, my definition of if I ask the qu
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answer the question what is a leader? It
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would go something like this. A leader
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is a person of influence
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who empowers or enables others to
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achieve or accomplish a shared or common
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goal. Now there there are four steps
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there. You don’t have to have a formal
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position of leadership to be an
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influencer or to have influence. And so
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anybody I mean whether you’ve got a
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position of authority or not you can be
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an influencer and get leadership is all
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about influence but it’s to enable and
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empower others. Leadership has an
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other’s direction. You know it’s never
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about the leader. It’s always about the
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other. In this case it could be the uh
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people in the organization. In fact I
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think I would say it should be about the
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people in the organization where you
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work and serve in a leadership role. But
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it should also be about the people you
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serve as a business or as an enterprise.
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And so it’s has that by uh uh bif focal
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uh focus on those two entities. But it’s
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never just about just the people. You’re
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there to achieve something to accomplish
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something to provide a service you know
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to sell a product you know to uh achieve
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something and that needs to be shared.
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There needs to be a common element.
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there can’t be 20 different perspectives
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on how we do that. And so I think that’s
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kind of the way I think about
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leadership. A person of influence who
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empowers or enables others to achieve or
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accomplish
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uh uh something an endgame you know uh
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that’s marked by a common purpose. And
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so I think that’s how I would define
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leadership. Now I think servant
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leadership is all about the means and
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the processes in which you go about
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doing that. You know you you see
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multiple types of leaders. You’ve got
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the power and control. You know the ones
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who operate with the big stick. It’s all
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about them and you know you issue orders
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and you issue memos where I think
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servant leadership has the heart of
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collaboration
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you know and participation on the part
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of others. Come, let us reason together
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would be the the biblical reference, you
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know, that speaks to this idea. And you
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know, interesting enough, um
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the reason that is important to get
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others involved is because a leader is
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not smart enough to figure out all the
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answers by himself or herself.
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You need the input of others. One of the
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quotes that I like to use in the the the
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graduate classes I teach in leadership
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is that something like this, this is a
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paraphrase of another author, that few
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indeed are the organizational
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misadventures that aren’t foreseen by
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somebody in the organization. In other
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words, you can go away with your team
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and sit on the mountaintop and, you
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know, think we’ve got all the answers
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and we come down from the mountaintop,
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share them, you know, with our
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colleagues. somebody’s sitting in the
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room saying, “You know what? You guys
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haven’t thought about this or you missed
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this idea.” You know, so I I like to I
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like to tell people that one of the
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advantages of collaboration and
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collegiality and participative
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involvement on the part of everybody
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that you serve is that the likelihood of
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missing something is minimized because
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you’re other people can see what you
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don’t because of your blind spots.
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[snorts] You know, and the the the I you
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know, the idea now I I mean, when I was
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an early leader, I would have said I
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would have I would have been more of
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that mountaintop guy, you know, that
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comes down and say, “Okay, here’s we
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prayed about it. We think God’s leading
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and let let’s let’s get to it.” You
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know, now I think it’s more of like,
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okay, we’ve had a great conversation.
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Here are some ideas that have emerged.
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What have we missed
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and how can we make it better?
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you know, two really good questions that
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I think that invite not just critique
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but participation
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on the journey. And I think that’s what
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that’s that’s what servant leadership
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that should be in my mind a mark of what
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what servant leadership is all about.
Writing on Leadership
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O
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over the years you’ve written multiple
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books on leadership uh rediscovering the
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soul of leadership and then one that
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really took off uh the softer side of
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leadership. talk about why you even got
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into writing about this because I know
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leadership is a topic that’s near and
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dear to your heart and I know you’ve
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worked with a ton of great leaders,
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amazing leaders and I know you’ve also
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seen some bad leadership experiences in
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your journey as well.
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Yeah. Well, I I as I said, leaders come
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in in multiple ways and good things can
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happen, you know, uh I mean even even in
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power and control situations depending
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on what the issues are. If there’s an
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emerging issue that has to be addressed,
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you don’t have time to sit down and talk
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about come let us reason together. You
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know, the dam’s got to be fixed
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tomorrow. And so you you have to move
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quickly and in an expeditious way in
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order to you know to solve those e
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exigent issues and address those exigent
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issues. But the problem is if that
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becomes your way of life you’re going to
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run over people. You’re going to use
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people. You’re going to you’re going to
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value people for what they can
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contribute rather than for the people
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they are. And I think you can get some
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results with that. But I think the
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optimal results that are sustainable
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need to come from that togetherness and
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that understanding people and getting a
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hold of what they’re excited about and
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and what they can contribute. And that
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gets into questions like, you know,
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developing a healthy culture, you know,
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and and what you want is, I think, in
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leadership are good results that are
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sustainable over time and not just kind
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of like reflections of a one-trick pony.
0:14:48
you know, that trick’s done. We got that
0:14:50
result. Now we’re done. Nothing more
0:14:52
nothing more in the tank, so to speak.
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So, I I think that’s
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I’ve I’ve seen that that dilemma. And
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so, what I what I learned was I I truth
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be told, I really started uh in in my
0:15:04
leadership journey primarily focusing on
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the things that I could measure. You
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know, it’s kind of like if it can’t be
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measured, uh let’s not going to let’s
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not do it. And and it’s that’s all that
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counts. And I learned quickly uh in my
0:15:18
leadership that there was more to the to
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the picture that I needed to see. And I
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I’ I’d learned this I I I’d like to say
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that Mary Lou is is one of my chief
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instructors because she sees out of a
0:15:29
totally different window on on these
0:15:32
things and how you care for people and
0:15:34
how you respect people and how you
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practice presence with people and how
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you empathize with people and how you
0:15:41
build relationships. There’s more to
0:15:43
leadership than simply transactions. And
0:15:46
I think the hard when I talk about soft
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and hard and those those might not be
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good metaphors, you know, things that
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can be more easily measured versus
0:15:54
things that are more difficult to
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measure. You know, you you get to the
0:15:58
same place. But I really felt that I I
0:16:00
wanted to offer a a uh how do I want to
0:16:04
say this? Uh more of a a solution so
0:16:07
people so leaders would have the idea to
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say, “Yeah, I I I need to measure
0:16:11
things. I need to verify and validate.”
0:16:13
That’s an important part of what
0:16:15
leadership is, but it’s not the whole
0:16:16
game, but neither is only the soft part,
0:16:19
the softer side of leadership. So, it’s
0:16:22
how do you combine the hard the the
0:16:24
measurable the more easily measured
0:16:26
stuff with the more uh difficult items
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to measure and combine those into a
0:16:32
leadership
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solution. And that’s really what I try
0:16:36
to do uh in the in the the most recent
0:16:38
book that you referenced, the softer
0:16:40
side of leadership. And I I I would look
0:16:43
at it this way. I think that book
0:16:45
illustrates what servant leadership
0:16:49
might look like in a family, in an
0:16:52
individual’s life, but also in an
0:16:53
enterprise or an organization. And so
0:16:56
that’s really what I’m attempting to to
0:16:58
do there. Give examples of that, you
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know, starting with the importance of
0:17:02
sacred space and giving space in your
0:17:04
life for deep thinking. A lot of leaders
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are an inch deep and a mile wide in
0:17:09
terms of the thought time that they
0:17:12
bring to a leadership task. That’s
0:17:14
dangerous and that’s an organizational
0:17:16
risk. And unless leaders pull themselves
0:17:20
away and have that experience and sort
0:17:23
through all the options AI is throwing
0:17:26
at them, for example, you know, uh
0:17:29
you’re you’re going to miss important
0:17:30
considerations. So I think it’s more
0:17:32
holistic and that’s really what I’m
0:17:34
trying to address uh in the software set
0:17:36
of leadership.
Balancing Hard and Soft Skills
0:17:37
It was such a good book. One thing that
0:17:38
I’m curious about and we deal with this
0:17:40
on our own leadership team and I see
0:17:42
this across organizations we work with.
0:17:44
You’ve got some leaders who are those
0:17:46
like hard charging KPI focused leaders
0:17:49
and there’s some huge strengths to that
0:17:51
but also some weaknesses and you’ve got
0:17:52
other people who as they lead they care
0:17:55
about people but they don’t care if the
0:17:57
business is succeeding or the
0:17:58
organization is succeeding they care
0:18:00
about the people. What are some steps
0:18:02
that you encourage either side of that
0:18:04
coin uh to take to move towards maybe a
0:18:09
more holistic servant leadership
0:18:11
approach?
0:18:12
Yeah, great question. Uh if if you think
0:18:14
about emotional intelligence for a
0:18:16
minute, uh the the first two elements
0:18:20
of of the of the elements of emotional
0:18:22
intelligence are self-awareness
0:18:26
and self ma management. uh you know,
0:18:30
you’ve got to be aware of how you are
0:18:32
perceived in the workplace. You’ve got
0:18:34
to know uh you have to have an awareness
0:18:38
of what your strengths are and where
0:18:39
your where your weaknesses are. You
0:18:41
know, uh we we all we all bring
0:18:44
weaknesses and strengths, you know, to
0:18:46
the to the table. And I think good
0:18:48
leaders are self-aware
0:18:52
of what their strong strong parts uh
0:18:54
points are, but they’re also aware of
0:18:55
what their weaknesses are. And what you
0:18:57
try to do is while you mediate the
0:19:00
weaknesses and and address them, you
0:19:03
really need your team to to fill in
0:19:05
those those gaps. You you want team if
0:19:09
you want people on your team who see
0:19:10
things that you’re not capable of seeing
0:19:12
easily or readily or not intuitively,
0:19:14
you know. So I think that you you if
0:19:16
you’re not self-aware of what you don’t
0:19:18
bring to the table, uh you’re not going
0:19:21
to be a very good you’re going to get
0:19:22
blindsided time and time again. So I
0:19:25
think good leaders one have a good
0:19:29
balance of hard and soft. In in my in my
0:19:33
situation, I tended to gravitate
0:19:35
initially to the hard skill side
0:19:38
and I had to learn on the back end, the
0:19:41
soft skill side. But there are other
0:19:44
people, as you say, who tend to
0:19:45
gravitate first to the people side, to
0:19:49
the relational side, and they’re less
0:19:51
concerned about building the the
0:19:53
mousetrap or building the the widget or
0:19:55
building the organization. And you need
0:19:57
both. You know, it’s not hard or soft.
0:20:01
It’s hard and soft. And I think good
0:20:04
leaders need to be aware uh of number
0:20:07
one, self-aware of where they are on
0:20:09
that continuum, but number two, be aware
0:20:11
of where the the strengths of the people
0:20:14
around them are and then build a team
0:20:16
that covers all their bases. I mean,
0:20:18
Patrick Glanchion,
0:20:20
you know, and his whole concept of the
0:20:22
working genius, you know, uh, that’s
0:20:24
that’s basically what he it’s another
0:20:26
way of saying what I’m I’m talking about
0:20:28
here. You’re you bring people to the
0:20:30
table that have a different genius or
0:20:33
outlook than what you do. And if it’s
0:20:35
all about you, you’re all going to see
0:20:36
the same thing and you’re going to miss
0:20:38
the other five or six perspectives that
0:20:40
are necessary for good decision making
0:20:43
and for organizational growth and
0:20:44
development.
0:20:45
Yeah. So self-awareness number one and
0:20:48
then number two uh that whole
0:20:50
self-management you know if if I know
0:20:52
that I’m I need I need to do a better
0:20:55
job of understanding you know the the
0:20:57
the business uh the finances of the of
0:21:00
the organization then I’m going to take
0:21:01
steps to grow in those areas or if I
0:21:04
find that I tend to be more
0:21:06
transactional than I am relational then
0:21:09
I need to take steps to grow but if you
0:21:11
don’t have the self-awareness you’re not
0:21:12
going to be able to do the the
0:21:13
self-management so it’s It’s it’s part
0:21:16
of growth that I think leaders need to
0:21:18
do in both of those fears.
Encouraging Feedback for Growth
0:21:20
Yeah. It’s kind of like the courage and
0:21:22
humility to ask the leadership team
0:21:24
around you or the people you work
0:21:25
closest with to just help you get
0:21:28
better. Point out things of like where
0:21:30
do you see weak spots that I could grow
0:21:31
in the there’s a story that I need you
0:21:33
to fill the gaps in on because I’ it’s
0:21:35
been a while. Uh, but you shared a story
0:21:38
one time about how you were going to you
0:21:41
were in like the final stages of hiring
0:21:43
uh people and you were down to like your
0:21:45
last two candidates and I think you and
0:21:47
Mary Lou went out to dinner or something
0:21:49
with these people and you were pretty
0:21:51
sure on what you were going to do and
0:21:53
you ended up in a totally different
0:21:54
direction. Can you share that story with
0:21:56
us?
0:21:57
Yeah, happily but sadly because it it
0:22:01
shows you of a gap in my my leadership.
0:22:03
I as I mentioned earlier on in my life I
0:22:05
was heavily quantitative you know if it
0:22:08
couldn’t be measured it wasn’t it wasn’t
0:22:11
worth pursuing and so that kind of was
0:22:13
my area and so we we were interviewing
0:22:16
this happened twice within a two-year
0:22:19
period which is re which really brought
0:22:21
two different people and so the first
0:22:23
candidate we brought in uh we brought in
0:22:25
a couple candidates one clearly emerged
0:22:27
I mean I had the I had the evaluation
0:22:30
charts already there they had all been
0:22:32
scored I knew the numerical values, you
0:22:35
know, for all the things we were looking
0:22:37
for and all the things we were trying to
0:22:38
measure. And candidate X clearly
0:22:41
excelled, as did candidate two in
0:22:44
another job search later on that I that
0:22:46
I did. One of the the last things that I
0:22:49
did I I would do in the process, I would
0:22:51
invite people to my home and then we’d
0:22:54
have kind of like a dinner because I
0:22:56
really valued Mary Lou’s insight. I I I
0:22:58
I would see in her work with people that
0:23:02
that relational empathic, you know,
0:23:05
quality that she she practices so very
0:23:08
well. And so we invited uh this
0:23:10
candidate home, the finalist that I was
0:23:12
already offered the job to. And so we
0:23:15
got finished dinner and I I was very
0:23:18
eager to get her input. I said, “Okay,
0:23:20
sweetheart, what do you think?” And her
0:23:22
response to me, “He will never work
0:23:25
out.”
0:23:26
And I was to be to be truthful I was
0:23:29
kind of upset like we have spent with a
0:23:33
team of smart bright people
0:23:36
two three two or three days interviewing
0:23:39
this candidate and you have met this
0:23:40
person once over dinner and you’re
0:23:45
pretty sure that person is not going to
0:23:46
work out. And truth be told I had to
0:23:49
make a change within two years. That
0:23:51
happened two different times in a row,
0:23:53
Chris. And I got to a point said, “Okay,
0:23:56
there is something I’m missing here.”
0:23:58
And that was really like a wide an
0:24:01
eyeopen wide experience
0:24:05
where I realized I needed my paradigm
0:24:08
need needed some some correction. My my
0:24:10
my filter was too narrow and too broad.
0:24:14
And that’s where really that was the
0:24:16
beginning of that whole journey of okay
0:24:19
we need to quantify things we need to
0:24:21
have tough-minded rationally based
0:24:24
evidence verified you know bases for our
0:24:29
decisions that wasn’t the whole picture
0:24:31
that was a an an important part of the
0:24:33
picture the other part that I was
0:24:35
missing was this thing on what I soft
0:24:37
skills is maybe not the best name you
0:24:39
know it’s it’s maybe people skills would
0:24:41
be a a a better name the the people side
0:24:44
of leadership, you know, where you
0:24:46
you’re concerned about, you know, uh,
0:24:49
getting your relationship with God, how
0:24:51
that translates into how you work with
0:24:53
people. How do you practice forgiveness
0:24:54
in an organization? How do you how do
0:24:57
you evaluate people? How do you how do
0:24:59
you hold people to high levels of
0:25:00
accountability and do it in a way that’s
0:25:03
fair, you know, from a people
0:25:06
perspective to do some of those things?
0:25:08
So that was
The Softer Side of Leadership
25:10
the learning journey that
Proven Leadership Examples
25:13
emerged you know eventually into the
Feedback and Growth
25:15
book that you the softer side of
Receiving Constructive Feedback
25:16
leadership. Yeah it it’s interesting because I would
Challenges of Leadership
25:18
say in those examples you were already a
Importance of Feedback
25:22
leader that had proven yourself out as
Hearing Feedback
25:24
as a solid leader. Um and and it took
Opening to Feedback
25:29
multiple times to get there. There’s a
Leaders and Feedback
25:31
lot of people listening to this who are
Feedback and Growth
25:32
leading things and people have looked to
Feedback Resistance
25:34
them as great leaders. Um, and it’s one
Feedback from Others
25:38
thing to tell somebody, “Oh, this is
Feedback Challenges
25:39
what happened to me.” But then they’re
Receiving Feedback
25:41
going to hear and be like, “Well, that
Feedback and Leadership
25:43
happened to you. It wouldn’t happen to
Feedback Resistance
25:44
me. I’m a great leader.” Uh, [laughter]
Feedback Importance
25:46
uh, how is how have you heard feedback
Receiving Feedback
25:48
from people? Because people you had a
Feedback and Growth
25:50
lot of people speaking into your life,
Feedback and Leadership
25:52
even thinking through Jake Hler and
Receiving Feedback
25:53
others who spoke into your life, things
Feedback and Growth
25:56
that you needed to hear along the way. H
Receiving Feedback
25:58
how did you best open yourself up to
Feedback and Leadership
26:00
receive and hear that feedback to grow
Feedback Challenges
26:02
as a leader? Well, I’ll tell you what
Feedback Resistance
26:04
that that’s that’s a missing piece in
Feedback Challenges
26:07
the life of many leaders. U leaders by
Feedback Resistance
26:11
and large and this is this is database
Feedback Importance
26:14
so it’s not just an opinion I’m
Feedback Challenges
26:15
expressing don’t
Feedback Resistance
26:18
are not eager to receive feedback
Feedback Challenges
26:20
particularly feedback that questions you
Feedback and Leadership
26:23
know the the viability or the rightness
Feedback Resistance
26:25
or wrongness of of a particular
Feedback Challenges
26:27
decision. You know, we want people to
Feedback Resistance
26:29
stand up and say well done and and if
Feedback Challenges
26:33
you you uh you know uh if you open
Feedback Resistance
26:37
yourself up for criticis I mean the job
Feedback Challenges
26:39
of the CEO is is so hard and so tough
Feedback Resistance
26:43
that often you don’t have bandwidth
Feedback Challenges
26:45
built into your system to allow for let
Feedback Resistance
26:48
alone seek uh con constructive feedback.
Feedback Importance
26:52
But yet I think that is a a mark of of
Feedback and Leadership
26:55
good leadership. I I like to I like to
Feedback and Wisdom
26:57
talk about that leaders and first of all
Feedback and Proverbs
27:01
the book of proverbs among others places
Feedback and Wisdom
27:03
in scripture constantly are calling and
Feedback and Leadership
27:06
and identifying the wise person is
Feedback and Wisdom
27:09
somebody who welcomes feedback who who
Feedback and Leadership
27:12
welcomes uh criticism. Not don’t just
Feedback and Wisdom
27:14
seek flattery. In fact uh one of the
Feedback and Leadership
27:17
tests of of leadership is the the praise
Feedback and Wisdom
27:20
test. You know do you seek praise? Do
Feedback and Leadership
27:22
you need praise for the thing to go on?
Feedback and Wisdom
27:24
uh uh or or or
Feedback and Leadership
27:27
are you comfort comfortable in your
Feedback and Wisdom
27:29
decision-making abilities
Feedback and Leadership
27:32
that whether people like them or not,
Feedback and Wisdom
27:34
you know, you’ve made the right decision
Feedback and Leadership
27:36
because you’re never going to make
Feedback and Wisdom
27:36
everyone happy. So, I I encourage
Feedback and Leadership
27:39
leaders, uh Chris, and I’ve tried to
Feedback and Wisdom
27:41
practice this. I I I encourage leaders
Feedback and Leadership
27:44
to develop what I call T3 groups. And
Feedback and Wisdom
27:48
what I mean by a T3 group is you need to
Feedback and Leadership
27:51
select and surround yourself with people
Feedback and Wisdom
27:54
who are trusted
Feedback and Leadership
27:57
truth tellers,
Feedback and Wisdom
28:00
not yes people. Not trusted yes people,
Feedback and Leadership
28:04
but trusted truth tellers. And you’ve
Feedback and Wisdom
28:06
got to invite that because you won’t get
Feedback and Leadership
28:09
it as a leader unless you create safe
Feedback and Wisdom
28:12
space or psychological safety or what
Feedback and Leadership
28:14
Patrick Glenion calls vulnerable trust
Feedback and Wisdom
28:17
for people to speak into your lives.
Feedback and Leadership
28:18
Otherwise, they’re going to pretty much
Feedback and Wisdom
28:20
salute and say, “Well done.” And even
Feedback and Leadership
28:23
so, in the bathroom talk or the hallway
Feedback and Wisdom
28:26
talk, they’re saying, “What in the world
Feedback and Leadership
28:27
is that leader even thinking? That is so
Feedback and Wisdom
28:30
far out.” and and you you can and if you
Feedback and Leadership
28:34
if you’re not if you don’t couple that
Feedback and Wisdom
28:35
with self-awareness, you know, the
Feedback and Leadership
28:37
emotional intelligence side, you are
Feedback and Wisdom
28:39
going to get blindsided as a leader. And
Feedback and Leadership
28:41
that’s why uh I think having trusted
Feedback and Wisdom
28:44
truth tellers around you. Now notice not
Feedback and Leadership
28:47
just truth tellers but trusted truth
Feedback and Wisdom
28:50
tellers. You know you take the biblical
Feedback and Leadership
28:52
story of David and the prophet Nathan.
Feedback and Wisdom
28:56
You know when he confronted him about
Feedback and Leadership
28:58
the fact that he had murdered ordered
Feedback and Wisdom
29:00
the murder of Uriah
Feedback and Leadership
29:03
after uh you know kind of raping his
Feedback and Wisdom
29:06
wife you know Bath Sheba. The reason
Feedback and Leadership
29:10
Nathan had entree to David to say that
Feedback and Wisdom
29:13
rather than Nathan losing his head is he
Feedback and Leadership
29:16
was trusted
Feedback and Wisdom
29:18
by David. He was one of those trusted
Feedback and Leadership
29:20
truth tellers. Every leader needs to
Feedback and Wisdom
29:23
surround himself or herself with trusted
Feedback and Leadership
29:27
truth tellers. I in in my own life, my
Feedback and Wisdom
29:30
wife is my first and most important
Feedback and Leadership
29:33
trusted truth teller. you know, uh, we
Feedback and Wisdom
29:36
got married, we were not in any kind of
Feedback and Leadership
29:38
leadership roles whatsoever. And so, you
Feedback and Wisdom
29:40
you know, you’re kind of on even ground.
Feedback and Leadership
29:43
And she, uh, maybe more than others
Feedback and Wisdom
29:46
never had any hesitation. Still doesn’t
Feedback and Leadership
29:48
look me in the eye and say, “What are
Feedback and Wisdom
29:50
you thinking?” Not every person on a the
Feedback and Leadership
29:53
team of a leadership team has has
Feedback and Wisdom
29:56
permission to speak into the leader’s
Feedback and Leadership
29:57
life. A leader that allows that to h
Feedback and Wisdom
30:00
happen. A leader, I’ll say it more
Feedback and Leadership
30:02
strongly, that welcomes that to happen.
Feedback and Wisdom
30:04
A leader who invites that to happen, you
Feedback and Leadership
30:08
know, what have we missed? How do we
Feedback and Wisdom
30:09
make it better and means it genuinely is
Feedback and Leadership
30:12
is is gonna ultimately see better
Feedback and Wisdom
30:15
results and avoid just careless mistakes
Feedback and Leadership
30:18
that you know you you think uh you’ve
Feedback and Wisdom
30:21
already addressed.
Feedback and Leadership
30:23
Yeah, that trusted truth tellers is such
Feedback and Wisdom
30:26
a good way to think about it. One one
Feedback and Leadership
30:28
thing that that makes me think of is
Feedback and Wisdom
30:30
something I’ve heard you talk about. So
Feedback and Leadership
30:31
that’s that’s kind of how you uh get
Feedback and Wisdom
30:34
input. You’re looking for trusted truth
Feedback and Leadership
30:36
tellers. How do you become a trusted
Feedback and Wisdom
30:38
truth teller? Because I’ve heard you
Feedback and Leadership
30:40
talk about uh I think you’ve called it
Feedback and Wisdom
30:42
like a leadership trust account or
Feedback and Leadership
30:44
something like that. How do you how do
Feedback and Wisdom
30:46
you build equity in the trust of the
Feedback and Leadership
30:48
people who you might be leading? Can you
Feedback and Wisdom
30:50
talk about that a little bit?
Feedback and Leadership
30:51
Yeah. Well, trust is a is a huge piece
Feedback and Wisdom
30:56
of any enterprise. I mean you can you
Feedback and Leadership
30:59
can have the best product in the world.
Feedback and Wisdom
31:01
You can have the best programs in the
Feedback and Leadership
31:02
world, but if if if you if you’re if
Feedback and Wisdom
31:06
you’re not viewed as trustworthy or
Feedback and Leadership
31:11
worthy of trust, you’re going to go
Feedback and Wisdom
31:14
nowhere. I mean, this is where Steven
Feedback and Leadership
31:16
CVY has done uh not just Stephven CVY,
Feedback and Wisdom
31:18
but others basically said it’s it’s it’s
Feedback and Leadership
31:20
the most important competency
Feedback and Wisdom
31:24
globally that leaders need to em
Feedback and Leadership
31:26
embrace. That that’s another whole
Feedback and Wisdom
31:28
topic. uh you know it is one of the
Feedback and Leadership
31:30
chapters uh in the book but I think to
Feedback and Wisdom
31:32
your point every leader again this goes
Feedback and Leadership
31:35
back to emotional intelligence and
Feedback and Wisdom
31:36
self-awareness most leaders are not
Feedback and Leadership
31:40
aware that they have just like they have
Feedback and Wisdom
31:41
a bank account they have an individual
Feedback and Leadership
31:44
trust account and things that you do
Feedback and Wisdom
31:48
either withdraw trust from that account
Feedback and Leadership
31:52
or add value. So when I when I work with
Feedback and Wisdom
31:56
leaders, I I encourage them first of
Feedback and Leadership
31:58
all, okay, do you know the status of
Feedback and Wisdom
32:00
your trust account? Is it full? Is it
Feedback and Leadership
32:02
empty? When when a leader is no longer
Feedback and Wisdom
32:04
trusted or that account is empty, if you
Feedback and Leadership
32:07
don’t if you can’t quickly find ways to
Feedback and Wisdom
32:09
replenish it, you’re dead in the water
Feedback and Leadership
32:11
as a leader, you might as well prepare
Feedback and Wisdom
32:13
your resume and and look for something
Feedback and Leadership
32:15
else because if if you don’t have trust,
Feedback and Wisdom
32:18
everything is going to be transactional
Feedback and Leadership
32:20
and that’s long-term not sustainable in
Feedback and Wisdom
32:22
leadership. So I think leaders need to
Feedback and Leadership
32:25
make building a culture where they’re
Feedback and Wisdom
32:28
they are viewed as trustworthy where
Feedback and Leadership
32:30
they trust people and where that is an
Feedback and Wisdom
32:33
embedded value in their culture is
Feedback and Leadership
32:36
really really critical. Um, I think you
Feedback and Wisdom
32:39
do that in a couple of ways and we don’t
Feedback and Leadership
32:41
have time to to go into that. That’s
Feedback and Wisdom
32:42
another topic.
Feedback and Leadership
32:44
But I think one of the things that you
Feedback and Wisdom
32:46
you do build trust is you focus on
Feedback and Leadership
32:48
building a life of character. You know,
Feedback and Wisdom
32:51
a character is who you are when nobody’s
Feedback and Leadership
32:53
looking. Uh, it’s it’s in the God knows
Feedback and Wisdom
32:56
but other people might not know. Uh, but
Feedback and Leadership
33:00
but who are you? Who are you really? And
Feedback and Wisdom
33:02
I think the scripture has a lot to say
Feedback and Leadership
33:04
about this. I mean I think a big part of
Feedback and Wisdom
33:07
the scripture focuses on on on building
Feedback and Leadership
33:10
your character. So then I think what we
Feedback and Wisdom
33:12
have to do is focus next on the issue of
Feedback and Leadership
33:15
integrity. I think integrity which is
Feedback and Wisdom
33:18
walking the talk. You know doing what
Feedback and Leadership
33:21
you say. Not just saying it and then
Feedback and Wisdom
33:24
doing something different but walking
Feedback and Leadership
33:26
the talk. I I sometimes share it this
Feedback and Wisdom
33:29
way is stop talking. Start walking and
Feedback and Leadership
33:32
let your feet catch up with your mouth.
Feedback and Wisdom
33:35
uh that also builds trust. So if you’re
Feedback and Leadership
33:37
not a person of character, you know,
Feedback and Wisdom
33:39
then you’re going to struggle with
Feedback and Leadership
33:40
integrity. But if you’re a person of
Feedback and Wisdom
33:42
character and then you add to it, you be
Feedback and Leadership
33:44
are a person of charact of of integrity.
Feedback and Wisdom
33:47
You walk the talk. Then I think the
Feedback and Leadership
33:50
third thing you need to focus on is
Feedback and Wisdom
33:51
competency. And this is something that a
Feedback and Leadership
33:54
lot of leaders,
Feedback and Wisdom
33:56
how do I want to say this? Aren’t aware
Feedback and Leadership
33:59
of as much. If if you’re not viewed, you
Feedback and Wisdom
34:02
can be a person of character and you can
Feedback and Leadership
34:04
be a person of integrity, but if you’re
Feedback and Wisdom
34:06
not viewed as competent by the people
Feedback and Leadership
34:10
where you work and serve, you’re going
Feedback and Wisdom
34:12
to struggle in your leadership. So I
Feedback and Leadership
34:14
think good start with developing you
Feedback and Wisdom
34:16
know just great character you know walk
Feedback and Leadership
34:19
the talk uh reflect integrity and then
Feedback and Wisdom
34:22
make you know build and add value to
Feedback and Leadership
34:25
make sure you’re the most competent
Feedback and Wisdom
34:26
person you can you can uh uh be I
Feedback and Leadership
34:31
think are are three places you know
Feedback and Wisdom
34:34
where you start but then I think there
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34:35
there are you know John Gardner years
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34:38
ago did a a deal on nine tasks of what
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34:41
uh what uh servant leaders do we don’t
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34:44
have time to talk about those nine tasks
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34:45
but part of it is how you communicate
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34:48
you know uh how you listen how you ask
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34:51
questions you know uh one of the roles
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34:54
of a of a chief executive I I think is
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34:56
to be a CLO as well as a CEO and by the
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34:59
CO I mean the chief listening officer
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35:03
a a good leader listens and asks
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35:06
questions far more than they talk
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35:10
themselves but it but it’s the It’s you
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35:13
you have to listen and you know develop
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35:15
that relationship. You know I think a
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35:16
key to developing trust is practicing
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35:19
being fully with a person. You know the
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35:22
importance of presence. You know uh
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35:25
you’re many of our our listeners uh or
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35:27
some of them at least would be familiar
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35:29
with the story of Mary and Martha where
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35:32
Jesus went to their house and Martha was
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35:36
practicing servant leadership. She was
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35:37
serving, serving, serving, serving,
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35:39
serving. And she came to Jesus and
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35:41
complained about her sister Mary because
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35:46
she she just was out hanging out with
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35:48
Jesus. And and what did Jesus say to
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35:52
her? You know, go back and tell Mary to
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35:54
join you in your act of serving. He
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35:56
said, “No, Mary has chosen the better
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35:59
thing.” And I think the better thing in
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36:01
this case was presence,
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36:05
you know, with Jesus. And I think
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36:07
presence is such a powerful
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36:09
differentiator,
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36:11
you know, in leadership when you’re, you
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36:13
know, John Denach, who was a former
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36:15
congressman, founder of the Peace Corps,
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36:17
uh, well, no, not founder of the PE,
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36:20
first leader of the Peace Corps, it was
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36:22
founded by John Gardner, uh, basically
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36:24
said, you know, one of the things he
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36:26
liked about Senator Mark Hatfield, who
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36:28
was that’s ancient history now, a
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36:30
senator from Oregon, is that, you know,
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36:31
usually he said in the in the in the
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36:33
lines, you know, the receiving lines in
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36:35
DC, See the person that’s shaking the
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36:38
hand of the visitor is always looking
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36:40
not at the visitor but to the side who’s
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36:43
coming next. They want to be and so they
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36:45
don’t really focus. And he he remarked
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36:47
about John or Mark uh Senator Hatfield
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36:50
that he always when somebody spoke with
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36:53
him they really felt that he was fully
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36:55
present. That’s another way you build
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36:58
trust you know. Um, and you’ve heard the
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37:01
the saying if if you don’t care about,
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37:04
you know, u uh people, they don’t really
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37:07
care about you or what you do or or
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37:10
anything else. And so I I think that
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37:12
practicing presence being fully involved
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37:14
you know I think u you know having the
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37:17
the person know
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37:20
that you are committed not just to what
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37:22
they can contribute
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37:24
professionally to the enterprise but
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37:27
also how the enterprise can contribute
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37:30
to their personal and professional
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37:33
growth is really an important part of
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37:36
that trust equation. I mean I’ll give
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37:38
you another uh example here.
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37:40
I was at George Fox University. I was a
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37:42
dean. I was a young guy. I was I was a
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37:45
dean when I was 28. Uh and I had been
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37:51
approached by another university. I’ll
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37:53
give you the name. It was a place in
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37:55
California called ISUsa Pacific
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37:57
University in the metro LA area that
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38:00
thought they had a wonderful plan for my
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38:02
life. you know, greater responsibility,
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38:04
uh, more money, and I had the kind of
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38:08
safe space, you know, the psychological
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38:10
safety within the president of George
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38:12
Fox, who who, interesting enough, was
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38:14
also a Taylor grad.
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38:16
U, um, I went in to share him about this
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38:19
new opportunity. You know, that itself
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38:21
is kind of interesting because a lot of
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38:23
presidents, if they hear that you’re
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38:25
looking or even considering some other
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38:27
other place, they look at that as a an
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38:29
act of disloyalty
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38:32
rather than how can I work with my
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38:34
sister or my brother to help them be in
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38:38
in in God’s intended place if it’s not
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38:40
here? You know, it’s that again, that’s
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38:42
that says volumes about that your view
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38:44
of leadership just in that little
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38:46
snippet that I gave you there. But
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38:47
anyway, I went in to tell him about this
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38:49
new opportunity at the ZUSA Pacific. And
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38:51
his response was absolutely amazing to
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38:54
me. His response, I expected him to say,
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38:57
“Oh, you can’t go. You know, you’re
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38:59
doing such a great job here. We’ll give
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39:00
you more money, you know, you know,
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39:02
etc., etc.” It wasn’t his response at
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39:05
all. His response instead was, “I think
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39:10
that’s great.”
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39:13
And I wait, I went I went for a minute.
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39:15
And I went, “Wait a minute. Explain
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39:18
that. How what do you mean that’s great
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39:20
that I’m thinking about leaving and
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39:22
going to another institution?” And he
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39:24
startled me with this line.
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39:28
Why would I want you on my team if
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39:31
nobody else wants you on theirs?
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39:35
I want people who are so good
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39:39
that everybody else wants them, but they
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39:42
choose to stay here because of God’s
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39:45
call, number one, but number two,
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39:48
because of their shared commitment and
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39:51
understanding that we’re willing and
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39:53
eager to invest in you personally and
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39:56
professionally.
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39:59
Obviously, I stated George Fox. That’s
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40:01
also part of servant leadership. You
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40:03
know, I would I would say to people at
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40:04
the retirement parties when uh Marylu
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40:07
and I would go to them at Taylor, you
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40:09
may remember this, that at the end of
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40:11
when uh when a person came to
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40:14
retirement, they could have a party,
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40:16
invite people. We were often invited uh
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40:18
to go and and share in their their
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40:20
celebrations.
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40:23
And I was always glad to hear them say,
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40:25
you know, and talk about the value they
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40:27
had the opportunity, you know, to invest
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40:30
and share in the lives of students and
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40:32
others that they worked with, you know,
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40:35
that that gave me great joy. But if that
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40:38
is all they talked about, Chris, then I
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40:41
was disappointed because what I also
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40:43
wanted to hear and what I look for was I
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40:46
can’t believe how much I’ve grown as a
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40:49
person and as a professional
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40:52
by being at Taylor.
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40:55
You know, that is the university’s
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40:56
willingness to invest in people. that
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40:59
when when somebody in an organization
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41:02
believes you care that much that you’re
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41:05
concerned about my family, you know, my
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41:07
future, not just my professional life
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41:09
and what I can add to your business,
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41:13
but you’re genuinely concerned, you
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41:16
know, to u uh to add to me and help me
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41:20
personally and professionally. That is a
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41:23
huge deposit back into build your trust
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41:25
account. Uh, I would say two of the
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41:29
major things that are with withdrawals
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41:34
from your trust account are budget
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41:36
decisions. When you’re not able to give
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41:39
people everything they want for their
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41:41
budgets,
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41:43
personnel decisions
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41:45
and compensation decisions, those are
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41:48
those are either major detract. You have
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41:51
to plan that there’s going to be hits in
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41:53
your leadership. you will make decisions
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41:55
that there will be uh uh withdrawals. Uh
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41:58
when I we had to close the four-wing
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42:00
campus as you you know uh that happened
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42:03
early in our presidency, that was a
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42:05
major withdrawal. That wasn’t a deposit.
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42:07
I took a hit, you know, uh that’s not
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42:10
something everybody stands up and shouts
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42:11
about, particularly on the campus in
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42:13
Fort Wayne where where we where we had
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42:15
to make that decision. So, back to your
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42:18
your point several minutes ago, you have
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42:20
to be aware of the status of your
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42:22
individual trust account and you’re
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42:25
making deposits and you’re making
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42:26
withdrawals.
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42:27
There’s so much good stuff in that. Uh,
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42:31
and I hope people take away the
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42:32
importance of presence, the importance
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42:34
of character, the importance of
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42:35
integrity. There’s so much good learning
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42:37
in those stories. One thing it made me
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42:39
think of um you talk about character,
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42:42
integrity, and you talk about uh you
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42:45
give the example of David, you know, and
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42:47
leaders, I think a lot of people
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42:48
listening think they’re of high
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42:50
character. Uh they think they have
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42:52
integrity and they do. They’re both of
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42:54
those things. Yet, there’s so many
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42:56
challenges that get thrown at leaders.
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42:58
David’s example happened to be one type
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43:01
of example, but there’s all kinds of
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43:03
things that can derail even very high
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43:05
character and very high integrity
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43:07
people. Um, what do you do to make sure
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43:10
like you 35 years uh being a leader, how
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43:14
did you surround yourself with the right
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43:16
people or the right wisdom to really not
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43:20
have some of those failures morally or
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43:23
um professionally that so many leaders
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43:25
have had?
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43:26
Yeah. Well, I think I think the uh one
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43:29
of the keys there is is is to build
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43:32
those kinds of trusted truth tellers
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43:34
into your life. It could be uh close
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43:36
friendships. One of the things uh that
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43:39
Marylu and I have uh and still do is
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43:42
that we have a series of friends.
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43:44
They’re not all people. In fact, all of
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43:46
them were outside of the community where
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43:49
we would then work and serve. They were
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43:51
in in this group I’m thinking of. They
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43:53
were all outside of Taylor. uh they were
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43:56
all outside of the American Bible
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43:57
Society where we were before and they
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43:59
were like long-term friendships or
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44:01
relationships where you could you could
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44:04
be real with those people and make
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44:06
yourself vulnerable and and and not just
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44:09
open yourself up to questions but
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44:11
welcome questions. And again, that’s
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44:13
where I think if if you don’t surround
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44:16
yourself with trusted truth tellers in
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44:19
your life, you know, uh you’re you’re
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44:22
going to be you’re going to be uh uh
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44:26
you’re going to head for a a crash. I
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44:28
mean, it’s inevitable. You know, keep in
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44:30
mind this happened to David near the end
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44:32
of his tenure as a king. He had very
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44:35
bumpy last years as a result. you know,
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44:38
God still, you know, still allowed him
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44:42
in that that role for a period of time.
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44:44
Uh, but there was a lot of heartache and
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44:46
a lot of family
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44:48
dissension and the whole story with
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44:50
Abselum and and everything else
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44:52
developed there. Uh, and David had
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44:54
fortunately Nathan, but but again, you
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44:57
know, what did the apostle Paul say? The
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44:59
things that I don’t want to do. It it
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45:00
you you can become very vulnerable in a
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45:02
weak moment and and you just you know
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45:06
you just you know David said one of his
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45:08
prayers in the psalm Mary and I just
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45:10
read it the other day and our our
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45:12
scripture he says protect me from sins
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45:14
that I’m not aware of. Protect me from
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45:17
those areas of vulnerability that I’m
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45:19
not even thinking about. And that’s
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45:21
where the self-awareness again comes in.
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45:24
You know who who am I when nobody’s
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45:26
looking? What do I think about what what
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45:28
occupies my thought life? Nobody else
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45:30
knows that except you and God. And and
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45:33
if if you aren’t if you’re if well I got
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45:37
this all figured out and I’ve got this
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45:39
all under control and I think I’ve been
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45:42
a pretty darn good president and I
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45:45
you’re you’re going to fall. I mean so
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45:48
uh and the and the scripture tells that
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45:50
uh and and David was on cruise control.
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45:52
You know, he was so good he wasn’t even
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45:55
didn’t even feel he needed to be out
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45:56
with the troops any longer. So he stayed
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45:58
home, you know, from this battle. Part
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45:59
of it was because of his age, you know,
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46:01
and his troops said, “No, we we can’t
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46:03
have you going to battle. You need to
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46:05
stay home. You know, you’re our our our
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46:07
light, our lamp, and we got to keep your
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46:09
that fire burning, you know, for for the
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46:12
country.” So, but yeah, you you first of
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46:15
all, be aware of the problem. Be aware
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46:17
that that risk is is real. And then two,
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46:21
take steps to to build strength around
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46:24
you. I mean, and not just be open to it,
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46:27
not just welcome it, but hey, I need
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46:30
that into my life. And who who are those
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46:33
people? Um, when you think about it,
Feedback and Wisdom
46:36
some organizations that I I I’m aware of
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46:39
talk about a a truth, you know, a table,
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46:42
you know, where you have people sitting
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46:44
around that table and representing
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46:46
different pieces of of who you’re not
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46:49
and people who can see things that
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46:51
you’re not.
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46:53
One one of the things that would also be
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46:55
really helpful, a lot of leaders resist
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46:57
this. I have found in fact I know of a
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46:59
couple that said you you if you aren’t
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47:01
going to insist uh on my doing that I’m
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47:04
you can look for another president. I
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47:05
mean that’s how that’s how much they
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47:08
rejected it. And that is that is a tool
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47:10
that in the in the management leadership
Feedback and Wisdom
47:12
world is referred to as a 360 you know
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47:15
is where you identify a group of people
Feedback and Wisdom
47:18
five 10 you know uh I did it twice in
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47:22
two different ways I did always with my
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47:23
senior team at Taylor [snorts]
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47:26
um and then with a larger group where
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47:29
they you’re they’re asked questions you
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47:31
know do I have the freedom to raise any
Feedback and Wisdom
47:34
questions or express any concerns that I
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47:36
want on a scale of one to five or a
Feedback and Wisdom
47:38
scale of on to I mean questions like
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47:40
that and others but it’s really a
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47:42
diagnostic tool for you to get a a re a
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47:45
handle on how you’re perceived you know
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47:48
I talk about this in the book where a
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47:50
lot of leaders some Chris Argus is one
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47:52
that I refer to a former professor at
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47:54
Harvard Business School who said you
Feedback and Wisdom
47:55
know one of the things
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47:57
that really scared me is how unaware I
Feedback and Wisdom
48:00
was of how I was perceived in my
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48:02
leadership role
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48:04
and a lot of leaders don’t want to know
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48:06
because to find out would be devastating
Feedback and Wisdom
48:07
me. But that’s what a 360 does. That’s
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48:10
what emotional intelligence is all
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48:12
about. Again, it goes back to
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48:14
selfawareness.
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48:16
And am I truly self-aware of how I’m
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48:19
perceived in my leadership role? And and
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48:22
so there’s a lot again we could talk
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48:24
about. There are a lot of nuances to
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48:25
each of these but but I think your point
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48:27
of surrounding yourself seeking out and
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48:32
building that kind of of of
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48:34
accountability I think uh in in terms of
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48:37
of a like a university this is
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48:41
one of the roles of a good board but if
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48:45
a board is not asking hard questions and
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48:48
is simply saluting
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48:51
uh and we’re aware of situations where
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48:53
Sometimes boards are not asking those
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48:56
questions. Uh then I think often a
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48:59
leader will get himself or herself in
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49:01
trouble and uh uh change is inevitable.
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49:08
Jean, I’m I I love talking with you and
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49:11
I’ve learned so much from you over the
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49:13
years. I I want to finish with 10 rapid
Feedback and Wisdom
49:15
fire questions
Feedback and Leadership
49:16
where you just say one or two words that
Feedback and Wisdom
49:19
come to mind. There’s no right or wrong
Feedback and Leadership
49:20
answers.
Feedback and Wisdom
49:21
Okay. Who’s the first person you think
Feedback and Leadership
49:24
of when I say servant leadership?
Feedback and Wisdom
49:27
Ted Angstrom.
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49:30
All right. Uh, favorite book or author
Feedback and Wisdom
49:32
that you would recommend to people?
Feedback and Leadership
49:35
Uh, Simon Synynic.
Feedback and Wisdom
49:37
Eaters lead eat leaders eat last.
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49:41
Yeah. Favorite food?
Feedback and Wisdom
49:43
Uh, Italian.
Feedback and Leadership
49:45
Favorite thing to do in your free time?
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Uh, read.
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What’s a surprising fact about you?
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49:53
Grew up on a farm.
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49:55
Oh, wow.
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49:55
I’m a farm boy.
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49:57
Favorite place you’ve been, and I know
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49:58
you’ve been all over the world.
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50:01
Uh, Vancouver, British Columbia.
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50:04
Anywhere in the world you want to go
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50:06
that you have not been to yet?
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50:09
Uh, having
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50:12
I want to follow your rule.
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50:14
Uh,
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50:16
more countries in Asia.
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50:19
All right. Five words that most describe
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you. [snorts]
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50:25
Uh, learner,
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50:28
um, accountable,
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50:32
uh, resultsoriented,
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presence
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with people, and trustworthy.
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Love those. All right, two more. Best
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advice you have ever received.
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50:49
The future belongs to the learning, not
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50:52
to the learned.
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50:55
All right. And finally, a podcast on
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50:57
servant leadership. And I know we’ve
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50:58
talked about this a lot, and this is
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51:00
something you have modeled for decades,
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51:02
but why do you think other people should
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51:04
care about becoming better servant
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51:06
leaders?
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51:09
Because God values people.
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51:13
and their growth and development
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51:17
and potential.
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51:20
He uses he uses people to do his work
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and we can’t marginalize them. Uh we
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51:26
have to grow them. Be they students, be
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51:29
they staff, be they faculty, be they
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51:31
alumni. That’s that’s part of the
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51:32
agenda. People matter.
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51:35
Well, Jean, thank you for being on the
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51:37
podcast and sharing some wisdom. We’re
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51:39
going to link to where people can check
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51:40
out uh the softer side of leadership and
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51:43
also just start following you because
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51:45
you’re doing some cool stuff even after
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51:46
Taylor.
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51:47
Yeah, blessings. It’s been great to
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51:49
reconnect, Chris. Great great to be with
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51:51
you. Thank you.
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51:52
Thank you for listening to this episode
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51:54
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If
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51:57
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