Eating Astronaut Food

0:00
What was it like eating astronaut food

0:02
on the moon and and like you see all the

0:04
videos of it. Was that just a crazy

0:06
experience for you? On the moon it was

0:09
even worse because we had no hot water.

Introducing Charlie Duke

0:17
12 people in history have ever walked on

0:19
the moon. Today we're speaking with the

0:22
10th person to do so and still the

0:24
youngest person to ever do it, Charlie

0:26
Duke. Charlie was the lunar module pilot

0:28
on Apollo 16, one of NASA's final moon

0:31
landings. He also played a critical role

0:33
in helping others get there. Charlie

0:35
served as the capsule communicator for

0:37
Apollo 10 and Apollo 11. He was the

0:40
astronaut in mission control, speaking

0:42
directly with Neil Armstrong and Buzz

0:44
Aldrin when they landed on the moon.

Charlie's Apollo Contributions

0:46
Charlie played key roles in five Apollo

0:48
missions, including Apollo 13, where the

0:51
lunar module was used as a lifeboat to

0:53
slingshot the crew around the moon and

0:55
return them safely to Earth. Join us as

0:58
Charlie reflects on humanity's most

0:59
ambitious endeavors, addresses the

0:01:01
questions people still ask about the

0:01:03
moon landing, and explains why his life

0:01:05
was changed far more by what happened

0:01:07
after he returned to Earth.

Welcome Charlie Duke

0:10
Charlie, thank you for joining us on the

0:12
Servant Leadership Podcast.

0:14
It's great to be with you, Chris.

0:15
looking forward to this interview.

Charlie's Journey to Astronaut

0:17
I I am so excited. Uh it's not every day

0:20
that you get to talk to one of the very

0:22
few people in history who have ever

0:24
walked on the moon. This is such an

0:26
honor. I'm curious, what was your

0:28
journey like to actually become an

0:30
astronaut?

0:32
Well, I started out at the Naval Academy

0:35
uh and graduated in 1957.

0:38
Uh I wanted to fly airplanes but I

0:41
didn't qualify for naval aviation but

0:43
the air force took me and I became a

0:46
fighter pilot and then a test pilot and

0:49
uh after 1965

0:53
when I graduated from test pilot school

0:55
I saw an article in the paper said

0:57
NASA's looking for more astronauts

0:59
please apply. So, uh, I went through the

0:02:02
Air Force channels and applied and was

0:06
selected, uh, uh, and, uh, we I started

0:10
out with a group of, uh, 18 other guys

0:12
and, uh, a April 196,

0:16
let's see, it was 1966.

Apollo Mission Involvement

0:19
Uh, and was astronaut for 10 years. Uh,

0:22
worked mostly on Apollo.

0:25
uh and was involved in uh let's see five

0:29
of the uh six missions. No, we had nine

0:33
missions to the moon. So I worked on

0:34
five of them but flew on Apollo 16 was

0:37
the 10th man to walk step onto the moon.

Apollo 11 Capcom Role

0:41
Wow. And you had a pivotal role in

0:44
Apollo 11. How did that come about?

0:48
Well, I was uh what was called Capcom. I

0:51
was back in Apollo. We had three crews.

0:54
We had a uh prime crew who was going to

0:57
fly the mission. We had a backup crew

0:59
that would take their place if they

0:01
couldn't make it. And then we had a

0:03
support crew. And the support crew were

0:06
the gophers. You know, you go do this,

0:08
you go do that, you take care of

0:10
everything. And as a result of that, I

0:12
was Capcom for Apollo 10. First time we

0:16
took the uh lunar module to the moon.

0:19
And Capcom is the guy in mission

0:21
control, always an astronaut, who talks

0:25
to the crew uh when they're in flight.

Mission Control Communication

0:29
It's the only B person in mission

0:30
control can actually transmit uh uh

0:34
information and talk to the I mean

0:37
actually speak to the crew. So I was uh

0:41
did that on Apollo 10 and it went so

0:44
well that Neil Armstrong asked me said,

0:46
"Well, Charlie, why don't you do the

0:47
same thing on Apollo 11?" I said, "Well,

0:50
that'd be a great honor. I'd be happy to

0:52
do that for you." So that's how he asked

0:55
me to do it. And so that's how it turned

0:57
out.

Witnessing Apollo 11 Landing

0:58
Wow. when when Neil Armstrong and Buzz

1:01
Aldrin stepped on the moon for the first

1:03
time, what was going through your mind

1:06
after walking them through it for the

1:08
last few days before that and talking to

1:10
them so consistently? Well, I was uh our

1:14
shift was on duty when they landed. Uh

1:18
and uh we were uh uh you know uh you can

1:23
listen to the landing and transmission

1:25
and and and I heard Buzz Aldron say

1:28
contact engine stop and we were within

1:31
30 seconds of calling them on abort. Uh

1:35
they were running out of gas and so uh

1:38
when I heard Buzz Alder say contact

1:41
engine stop I knew they were on the

1:43
ground and Neil came back and says uh

1:45
Eagle Tranquility base here the Eagle

1:47
has landed and that's when I got

1:49
excited. I couldn't even pronounce

1:51
Tranquility. it came out twang

1:55
and I corrected myself but anyway uh so

1:58
they were on the ground but then we went

2:00
off duty our shift and another group so

2:05
when actually he actually stepped on the

2:07
moon I was at home watching on TV with

2:10
my family it's like 10 11:00 at night if

2:13
I recall and so I his first steps was uh

2:17
I just was wow just sit watching like

2:21
billion other people uh that first step

2:24
onto the moon.

Servant Leadership Insights

2:26
Wow. What we talk a lot on this podcast

2:29
about servant leadership.

2:31
What did you learn in that process up

2:34
through Apollo 11 and working with Neil

2:36
and Buzz about servant leadership and

2:38
just working for NASA in general?

2:41
Well, I uh I think when servant

2:43
leadership is is to me uh you get a task

2:48
and you uh do it to the best of your

2:51
ability to serve everybody else. Uh

2:54
Capcom and support crew is to help the

2:58
prime crew get ready uh to launch and

3:01
then it uh that's the support crew side

3:04
of it. And then the Capcom side is to

3:07
learn and train and be there uh in

3:09
mission control and do something that's

3:12
um don't make a mistake. You know,

3:14
listen carefully to the flight director,

3:17
listen to everybody else, talk listen to

3:19
the crew, and you got to stay focused.

3:22
And uh and we did that with uh training

3:26
uh in um in mission control. We we'd

3:29
link up with the crew in the simulator

3:32
and all the team would be in mission

3:34
control. So we'd practice the landing,

3:36
we would practice the rendevous, we

3:39
would practice

3:41
uh all of that stuff and so it was

3:44
necessary and uh you got really good at

3:46
it. And so uh we were very confident

3:49
when the actual

Training and Simulations

3:53
flight came because you know it's not

3:55
not something that you say well we've

3:57
never done this before. Uh but because

3:59
we had practice and practice and

4:01
practice and uh you know in in the

4:04
simulations we crashed a couple of times

4:06
and uh we couldn't lift off a couple of

4:09
times and so you get used to

4:12
understanding the the the problems that

4:16
could could arise and uh you're trained

4:19
to respond in a in um uh expeditious and

4:24
a correct manner.

Simulation vs. Reality

4:26
How accurate was the practice compared

4:28
to what actually reality was like?

4:31
Because there surely had to be some

4:32
differences, right?

4:34
Well, it simulations were really pretty

4:36
good. Uh and yeah and uh they were a

4:40
simulator at Kennedy Space Center and we

4:42
were in mission control and we were tied

4:44
together by telephone and uh we do uh

4:48
various uh scenarios and we had a person

4:52
called Sim Soup and the simulator soup

4:56
he would say okay on this session we're

4:58
going to practice this and so we we'd

5:01
agree all to the schedule and uh so we'd

5:04
practice landing or we'd practice lift a

5:06
rendevous school and we'd practice

5:07
whatever. And um so uh we knew what was

5:12
coming. Uh we knew that uh the

5:15
simulation was going to be about landing

5:18
uh for instance. And so we would get

5:20
involved in very various uh different

5:23
scenarios and problems would come up.

5:26
How do you respond to the problems?

5:28
Sometimes we crash, sometimes we made

5:30
it. And so when we got through with the

5:33
simulation, we'd have a debriefing.

5:35
Okay, this is what we you should have

5:37
done and this is what you didn't do or

5:40
this is what you you did do and

5:42
shouldn't do. You know, you go over it

5:44
all. So, you got really really good at

5:46
at understanding procedures and the

5:49
ability of of what the crew could do and

5:52
the spacecraft could do and everything

5:53
like that.

Continuing Moon Missions

5:55
Wow. So, with Apollo 11, I understand

5:58
the race to the moon and and the push to

6:01
do that. What was the drive to keep

6:03
going back multiple times after?

6:06
Well, we'd spent a lot of money on

6:08
Apollo and nobody knew that Apollo 11

6:10
was going to be successful. Uh and uh we

6:13
had uh simulator, we had spacecraft

6:17
ready. Uh we had uh uh uh different

6:21
areas of the moon we wanted to explore.

6:24
uh and all of that uh was uh let's go

6:28
learn more about the moon and let's

6:30
spend the money uh on the missions uh

6:33
that we had planned and um and and bring

6:37
back all of the uh information we can

6:40
from the moon. You can't you know each

6:42
area of the moon is slightly different.

6:44
Uh for instance, our landing spot was in

6:46
the mountains of the moon about 8,000 ft

6:49
above where Neil Armstrong landed. Well,

6:52
the rocks were different and terrain was

6:54
different and so uh it took four or five

6:58
missions uh let's see it was five

7:01
landings and uh no six landings uh on

7:05
the moon and uh and then at that point

7:09
we had gained so much knowledge uh that

7:12
NASA cancelled the last three missions

7:14
Apollo moon landings were very very

7:17
successful and so they canled the last

7:19
couple of missions because they were

7:20
running out of things to too.

Apollo 16 Opportunity

7:23
Well, at after Apollo 11, correct me if

7:27
I'm wrong, but I don't think you had any

7:29
idea that you would be on Apollo 16 at

7:31
that point. How did it come up that you

7:33
ended up on Apollo 16?

7:36
Well, uh, with being involved in um, uh,

7:40
mission control on uh, Capcom on Apollo

7:43
10 and 11, uh, I got put on the backup,

7:46
not the backup crew, but the uh, yeah,

7:48
the backup crew for Apollo 13.

7:51
And so generally it was a support crew

7:55
role and then a backup role and then a

7:58
prime crew role uh three flights later.

8:00
So uh after 11 I was selected a backup

8:04
for Apollo 13 and um and was uh uh

8:10
helped a lot with the um uh recovery

8:15
when they had the explosion uh on the

8:18
way to the moon. And uh fortunately we

8:21
still had the lunar module and we use

8:23
that as a lifeboat if you will to swing

8:26
them around the moon and bring them back

8:27
safely. Uh it was a tremendous uh task

8:33
for mission control. And you know you

8:36
had a spacecraft that was the lifeboat.

8:38
The lunar module was built for um two

8:41
guys for three days. Now we got three

8:44
guys three guys for four days. How do

8:47
you make it last? uh the electrical

8:50
power, the water, drinking water, all of

8:53
those things we had to ration. We had to

8:56
we had batteries, so we had to make sure

8:58
the batteries didn't give out. So, all

9:01
of that took a real effort on the part

9:03
of uh mission control to uh figure it

9:07
all out. So we did and uh everything

9:10
lasted till re-entry and they abandoned

9:13
the uh spacecraft and uh the lunar

9:16
module and got into the command module

9:18
and powered it up and the batteries uh

9:22
were good and the lunar and the command

9:25
module and so you could use it to

9:27
re-enter but you couldn't use it to come

9:29
back home in because the battery the

9:32
electrical power was gone except for an

9:34
8h hour battery and you had to save that

9:36
8 hour battery for re-entry. That's why

9:39
we had to make sure that the lunar

9:41
module was going to work for uh 4 days.

Apollo 13 Movie Accuracy

9:46
Wow. What when you saw the Tom Hanks

9:50
movie for Apollo 13, I'm guessing you've

9:53
seen that. Did you feel like it was

9:54
accurate, not accurate? I mean, because

9:56
you kind of were living a lot of that.

9:59
We saw a a special showing of it. uh uh

10:03
about 250 of us who actually did it and

10:07
uh and they were watching this. It was

10:09
the first showing of this movie at a

10:11
special uh theater in uh Houston and uh

10:14
Tom Hanks was there and they came he and

10:17
Ron Howard came out and they were really

10:19
really nervous. They said now everybody

10:21
remember this is not a documentary it's

10:23
a movie and so uh we watched it and it

10:27
was really good. And after it was over,

10:29
I told Tom, I said, uh, Tom said, "I

10:32
knew how it was coming, going to come

10:34
out, and I was sitting on the edge of my

10:35
seat. Y'all did a great job."

Apollo 16 Landing

10:38
Oh, that's awesome. So, on Apollo 16,

10:43
you became the 10th youngest person or

10:46
or the 10th person and the youngest

10:47
person to walk on the moon. What were

10:50
you thinking when you guys touched

10:52
ground?

10:54
Well, it was uh I can't say I said

10:58
hallelujah, but it was uh we're finally

11:00
here, Houston. So, we were six hours

11:02
late landing and it was the last it was

11:05
the last revolution of our or when I say

11:09
revolution, our orbit, the last

11:12
opportunity that we had that we could

11:14
steer back to our landing site. If we'

11:17
have delayed another two hours, we'd

11:19
have had an abort and had to come home.

11:22
So mission control saved the day and

11:24
gave us uh fixed a problem that was uh

11:26
not fixed it but they worked around a

11:28
problem with any other spacecraft uh

11:31
that was troubling them. And so we gave

11:34
us a landing, but it was 6 hours late

11:36
landing. And so,

11:39
uh, it was very, very exciting when they

11:41
gave us a go for landing, of course. I

11:44
mean, we trained for 2 years. And, uh,

11:47
and to be, you know, 8 miles above your

11:50
landing spot and somebody says come

11:52
home, uh, would been a bit bitter pill

11:56
to swallow. So, uh I thank um uh was so

12:00
very thankful for mission control and

12:02
their uh decision making. Uh the flight

12:08
director was um Jerry Griffin and he

12:11
made the decision to give us a goal for

12:14
landing. Uh I mean all the top dogs at

12:18
NASA were there, the administrator was

12:20
there and mission control and uh Chris

12:22
Craft the center director and all of the

12:24
these famous guys, all the management

12:28
and the decision came down to the flight

12:30
director. says Chris Craft. I saw later

12:33
on I saw Chris Craft in mission control

12:36
and and um he had a habit of scratching

12:40
his hand and uh he said uh uh to Jerry

12:44
Griffin he says okay Jerry it's your

12:46
decision whatever you want to do. Jerry

12:48
said, "We'll go." And

12:51
and uh so I didn't, you know, I didn't

12:54
realize all that discussion until after

12:56
I got back. But uh uh we were just

12:59
floating around waiting, waiting,

13:00
waiting, waiting. And u then they said,

13:03
"Okay, you we we fixed the other. We

13:06
couldn't fix the other problem, but we

13:07
got a workaround." And so you guys are

13:10
go for landing on the next rail. So

13:12
wow.

First Steps on the Moon

13:12
Down we down we went. So, I know you

13:15
were there to do real work, but when you

13:18
actually stepped foot on the moon for

13:20
the first time yourself and John Young's

13:22
there and you guys are talking, were you

13:25
guys just in absolute disbelief? I mean,

13:27
or were you just so confident that you

13:30
would make it?

13:31
Uh, we weren't in disbelief, but we were

13:34
in awe, I should say. Uh, I'm on the

13:36
moon. You you and we had trained for our

13:40
landing site. We knew the major features

13:43
of our landing site and so uh we um

13:48
um we recognized Stone Mountain and we

13:52
recognized the major craters and the

13:54
various places. Oh, sorry about dropped

13:57
my phone here. Uh we and we recognized

14:01
so we we felt right at home. We had

14:03
trained for this and studied these

14:06
photographs and terrain all for two

14:10
years and so we were very it was like

14:13
being home again. Uh yeah, I've been

14:15
there before from all the training we

14:17
did.

Using the Lunar Rover

14:18
One thing that you guys had that a lot

14:20
of Apollo missions didn't have was you

14:22
also had a rover, right? Where you could

14:24
kind of drive around for a little bit.

14:26
Is that is that accurate? And what was

14:28
that like?

14:29
Well, uh it re the rover uh was the last

14:32
three missions. So Apollo 6 16 was the

14:36
second to have the rover and it really

14:38
revolutionized

14:40
uh the rover revolutionized lunar

14:42
exploration. Uh you could drive out four

14:46
or five miles and do geology. Whereas

14:50
before the rover you walked and you

14:52
never were able to walk more than four

14:54
or 500 meters away from where you

14:56
landed. And so uh uh walking and

14:01
collecting rocks and dragging them back

14:03
to the rover was I mean the lunar module

14:05
was very difficult. But with the rover

14:08
you could load up and you know could

14:10
have 50 60 lbs of rock on the back of

14:13
the rover and uh you drive all over four

14:16
or five miles. you you you you did a big

14:20
circle, if you will, a big loop uh in

14:23
exploration and every uh of the three

14:27
excursions we did, they were all in

14:29
different directions. So, uh uh we you

14:32
could just cover the whole landing spot

14:35
with the rover and it really uh was an

14:38
outstanding u machine. it. You never

14:43
worried about getting stranded. Uh and

14:46
uh and the and the uh rover. Uh and so

14:50
the last three missions with the rover

14:52
collected by far the biggest majority of

14:55
the rocks uh that we brought back from

14:58
the moon.

Notable Lunar Discoveries

14:59
What What was the And maybe there is

15:02
nothing, but was there anything that you

15:03
found up there in terms of rocks or

15:05
other things that you were like, "Wow,

15:07
I'm really proud of that one thing that

15:09
we found." or was there anything that

15:11
really stood out to you as extra

15:12
notable?

15:14
Well, one uh

15:16
yeah, the we call it a the biggest rock

15:20
we got weighed down here about 20

15:22
pounds. And uh it was a big sample ever

15:25
bought back from the moon. And uh we

15:27
called it the the our chief geologist

15:30
was a guy named Bill Mullberger who

15:33
headed a geology department of Texas at

15:36
the time. And uh we called it big muy.

15:40
He said, "Pick up that rock." And he

15:42
told us to pick it up. I said, "You sure

15:43
you want that rock? It's so big as a

15:45
watermelon." "Yeah, pick it up. Pick it

15:47
up." So it was so big I couldn't get my

15:52
hands around it. So I had to go down

15:54
sort of down into a crater a little bit.

15:57
So to get the rock closer and I had to

16:00
roll it up my leg uh and carry it like a

16:03
baby uh till I got back to the lunar

16:06
module. And uh it was all it was the

16:10
biggest rock we ever brought back. And

16:12
uh uh the rocks where we landed were

16:15
supposed to be volcanic but most of them

16:17
were not. So they were very excited

16:20
about the uh uh lunar highlands rock

16:23
where we landed was unique that they'

16:28
never seen anything like them uh from

16:31
the previous missions. And so the lunar

16:35
landing in the lunar highlands were um

16:38
uh a a big step for for NASA and the

16:42
exploration of the moon. I might I don't

16:45
know whether I said it or not, but we

16:47
landed about um 8,000 ft above where

16:50
Neil Armstrong landed on on the lunar

16:54
surface. So the rocks were different and

16:57
uh we had been briefed that there were

16:59
going to be this kind of rocks, but they

17:00
weren't. They were totally different and

17:02
they uh they were uh geologists were

17:05
very very excited.

Moon Landing Skepticism

17:07
Wow. One thing that I didn't realize

17:09
until recently is that there are people

17:12
out there who are skeptical of if we

17:15
went to the moon. I I've never

17:18
I I had never heard that when somebody

17:20
first told me. I thought they were

17:21
kidding. And then I started researching.

17:23
I'm like, "Wow, people actually think

17:25
this." A lot of people I've seen you

17:27
even debate people about this of if you

17:29
were there or not, which is just

17:31
comical. Um, but at the same time, how

17:34
do you respond when people are

17:35
skeptical? Why do you think they're

17:37
skeptical? And what do you say?

17:38
Well, well, I ask them, why don't you

17:40
believe it? And they say, well, I just

17:42
don't believe it. Well, I says, you're

17:44
willfully ignorant then because the uh

17:47
and I'm not in trying to insult them,

17:49
but I'm just saying the evidence is

17:51
overwhelming. We landed on the moon. Uh

17:54
the lunar reconnaissance orbiter, which

17:56
is a satellite uh mapping the moon has

17:59
taken pictures of every Apollo landing

18:03
site with a a camera that has uh

18:07
resolution like 8 ft. So you can see the

18:10
descent stage in our landing site. You

18:12
can see the descent stage. You can see

18:14
the car. You can see the experiments

18:17
package. You can see all of the not

18:18
individual footprints, but you can see

18:20
where we when you walk uh on the moon,

18:23
you the bright color turns dark. So, you

18:27
can see the dark areas where we've been

18:29
walking and working. And uh it's and

18:32
every landing site has been photographed

18:35
by this LRO

18:37
uh lunar reconnaissance orbiter. And you

18:39
can see it all there on the lunar

18:41
surface. It's uh uh and uh it's it's

18:46
obvious that we landed on the moon with

18:48
all of the pictures that were taken and

18:52
every object

18:54
you you see that we left up there. And

18:57
uh so um anyway,

Broadcasting from the Moon

19:00
the the video and picture back to Earth

19:02
so quickly that that's I think one of

19:04
the big surprises that people have. We

19:07
had a camera uh that was a TV camera was

19:10
mounted on the car. Uh and uh and as we

19:15
stopped, we pointed the antenna up at

19:18
the Earth and turned on the camera and

19:20
then the camera was operated remotely

19:23
from mission control. So, and they could

19:26
focus it, they could pan it, they could

19:28
tilt it, they could do it all uh

19:31
remotely from mission control. So all of

19:34
the photographs on the lunar surface uh

19:37
were taken well not the photographs but

19:40
the videos were through that camera. Uh

19:43
we did have a video camera. We had a

19:45
movie camera that I took some pictures

19:48
and uh as we drove along and we also had

19:52
a a hustleblot a 70 mm camera that I

19:55
took pictures as we drove every 50

19:58
meters. And so we the traverses we did

20:02
were photographed and documented because

20:06
when you driving across the rover it's

20:08
real I mean driving AC in the rover

20:11
across the moon it's bouncy and it's

20:13
going everywhere and the antenna uh that

20:16
gets a TV camera wasn't wouldn't stay

20:20
pointed at the earth. So we didn't have

20:21
any TV when we were driving. So when we

20:24
stopped, we would focus the ant I mean

20:27
point the antenna, turn on the TV, and

20:29
then they had we had TV.

Thoughts on Mars Exploration

20:32
That's crazy. So I I know that you've

20:34
been able to see what Elon Musk has done

20:37
with going to space and SpaceX. When he

20:41
talks about going to Mars, what are your

20:44
thoughts on people going to Mars?

20:47
I'm not a big proponent of people going

20:50
to Mars. I think we ought to do it with

20:53
robotics. Uh because nobody you can't

20:56
you can't overzeap uh radiation on a

21:00
piece of equipment. But a person going

21:03
to Mars is going to be subjected to a

21:05
tremendous uh exposure to uh cosmic

21:10
radiation. And to me uh robotics and AI

21:15
and everything, it's getting so good.

21:17
Why risk a life of a person going that

21:22
far uh with the radiation exposure that

21:25
they're going to receive? Uh and no

21:29
telling what what what would happen.

21:32
Whereas we send a we can send a a a

21:35
robot and a uh with AI and everything

21:39
else and and they're doing a tremendous

21:42
job on Mars right now with just

21:45
robotics. and we programmed to do these

21:48
experiments. And so I uh you know I

21:52
think somebody's going to eventually if

21:55
we can solve the radiation problem and

21:57
protection uh for a crew on the way to

22:00
the moon I mean on the way to Mars

22:02
somebody will go but I don't think in my

22:04
lifetime and uh

22:07
and I'm 90 and I don't think I I don't

22:09
see anything going to the Mars right now

22:12
with people. We got Artemis

22:15
uh which is uh next year and we're going

22:18
to have uh tremendous uh opportunities

22:22
to return to the moon on Earth just but

22:25
to the moon and they're going to have a

22:27
big orbit and they're going to go out uh

22:30
6,000 miles or so beyond the moon uh

22:34
next year uh with Artemis 2 and and

22:38
they're going to see the moon, Earth all

22:41
in one view and something we didn't we

22:45
couldn't do cuz we were so close to the

22:47
moon. But being far behind the moon, you

22:51
can look out and you can see the moon

22:53
and on beyond the earth. It's going to

22:55
be very spectacular and I'm very excited

22:58
about it.

Life After NASA

22:59
Wow. Well, I know you've talked about

23:03
this publicly from some of the stuff

23:04
I've seen about what happened with your

23:07
life after NASA and how you had some

23:10
radical conclusions you came to. What

23:12
was life like once you got back?

23:15
Well, it was um uh

23:19
very uh uh challenging for another six

23:22
eight months because uh we were backup

23:25
crew for Apollo uh 17 and um and after

23:30
that training was over in December, I

23:32
went to work on space shuttle and uh it

23:35
was not as exciting and so I began to

23:38
get frustrated and uh my daddy was and I

23:42
were having a real problems in our

23:44
marriage. marage uh at that point and uh

23:47
she was very depressed and um suicidal

23:51
in in a way and uh so uh things were

23:55
pretty tough at home. Uh and that was

23:58
from 72 to 75

24:02
in the in the fall of 75

24:05
we went to we were in church but we

24:10
Jesus was really not real to us. It was

24:13
just, you know, you grew up in church,

24:16
so you went to church, but Jesus was in

24:19
our minds, but not in our heart. And so,

24:22
uh, uh, uh, some people came to our

24:25
little Episcopal church in Leaport,

24:27
Texas on a weekend. They told us how

24:30
Jesus had changed her life. And she'd

24:32
never heard a testimony before and never

24:34
seen people so vibrant and excited about

24:37
a relation, a heart relationship with

24:40
Jesus. And uh after that weekend was

24:43
over, she went and prayed by herself and

24:46
said, "Uh, Lord, I've tried everything

24:48
but you." And Jesus, if you're real,

24:50
come into my heart. If you're not, I

24:51
want to die. Well, Jesus just he

24:54
responded to that invitation and came in

24:57
and she began to change.

24:00
uh and and and

24:03
uh changed her attitude about divorce

24:05
and changed her attitude about suicide

24:08
and she became just glowing. Then at 6

24:14
months later we left NASA and uh and we

24:18
came to uh I started a business and

Life-Changing Bible Study

29:22
then uh at that point um two years later

29:26
two and a half years later uh after I

29:29
sold my business uh uh I uh decided to

29:34
go to a Bible study and at that Bible

29:36
study I met Jesus and uh it was called

29:39
Walk Through the Bible And so I'd seen

29:42
what happened to Daddy. And so I said

29:46
after that B

Memorable Bible Verses

29:48
after that Bible study, I remember two

29:51
verses from John. Jesus says, "I am the

29:54
way, the truth, and the life, and nobody

29:57
comes to God except through me." Now

30:00
that's either true or the biggest lie

30:03
ever perpetrated on humanity. And we get

30:06
to decide, is it true or is it not? God

30:10
gives us all a free will and we get to

30:12
decide whether Jesus is the son of God,

30:15
the savior of the world or we get to

30:17
deny it. And so uh at that point um

Personal Faith Declaration

30:21
sitting in my automobile after that

30:23
weekend, I said, "Lord, I believe it. I

30:25
believe everything that you say that you

30:27
are." And I said, "Come into my life."

30:29
And at that point, sitting in my

30:32
automobile in a parking lot of T-Barm

30:34
Tennis Ranch, uh I felt the peace of God

30:38
for the very first time. And I knew that

30:40
I knew that I knew that it was real and

30:44
my life wasn't going to be the same. So

Desire to Read the Bible

30:46
I had this insatiable desire to read the

30:48
Bible. So I began to read the Bible and

30:51
and God began to I I wasn't convicted as

30:56
a sinner. I just knew I needed Jesus.

31:00
You know, I I wouldn't know different

31:02
than anybody else. You know, I knew this

31:04
wrong. I did that wrong. But everybody

31:06
did those things, you know.

Conviction and Repentance

31:07
So, but Jesus began from the scriptures

31:10
began to convict me about u my sin about

31:14
loving my wife. Husbands love your wives

31:16
as Christ loved the church. God says you

31:19
don't love your wife that way. That mean

31:22
when I say God said I just in my heart I

31:24
knew that. And uh and so I repented and

31:29
I told we started building our

31:31
relationship.

Parenting and Critical Spirit

31:33
Then I was very hard on my boys and um

31:36
and God and the scriptures it said in

31:38
Proverbs you have you can you have the

31:41
power of life and death in your tongue

31:43
and you can speak life or you can speak

31:45
death and God showed me I'd spoken death

31:48
to my kids because of my critical spirit

31:51
and I mean I was in tears because I love

31:54
these kids and uh and so that and then

God's View on Money

31:57
money he talked to me start talk to me

31:59
about money about what God's attitude

32:02
towards money and uh and so we begin to

32:05
build our relationship and I began to

32:08
build my life on the foundation of Jesus

32:10
and and what the scripture wants us to

32:13
do. And uh it's it's that was 1977

Walking with the Lord

32:20
six. Yeah. 77. And now we've been

32:22
walking with the Lord ever since. And uh

32:26
and it's gotten stronger and stronger.

32:27
We um we travel all over the world.

32:30
We're not evangelists, but we like to

32:33
share Jesus. And when we get we get

32:35
invited to churches or we get invited to

32:38
uh various organizations to speak, I'm

Sharing Jesus Through Speaking

32:41
motivational speaker. So, I talk mostly

32:44
about um uh you know uh leadership and

32:48
and um and and focus and stuff like

32:52
that. But at the end, if if it's a if

32:56
it's not a Christian organization, I'll

32:58
just say, "Uh, anybody got any

33:00
questions?" And I'll pray, "Lord, have

33:02
somebody ask me a question. Did it

33:04
change your life?" And I usually get

33:06
that question. Well, did going to the

33:08
moon changed your life? I said, "No,

33:09
that didn't, but let me tell you what

33:11
did." And I talk about Jesus for about

33:14
three minutes. and uh so I get to share

Invitations to Christian Groups

33:18
uh the the the reality of God and and

33:22
one's life and uh strictly but sometime

33:25
a lot of times we invited to Christian

33:28
groups conventions and stuff like that

33:30
and there you get to share your whole

33:32
testimony of of the what the power of

33:35
God to change a life.

Leadership and Faith

33:37
Wow. Did your view on leadership change

33:40
or did you learn anything different

33:42
about leadership after you started

33:46
having a personal relationship with

33:47
Jesus compared to the leadership of when

33:50
you were dealing with some of the most

33:51
prominent leaders in the world when you

33:53
were an astronaut and then now you're

33:55
dealing with Jesus? How did your view of

33:57
leadership change if at all? uh servant

Servant Leadership

34:00
uh being a servant leader uh yeah uh

34:03
serving others uh mostly is uh is the

34:07
the change that I saw that uh God wants

34:10
us to be a servant leader uh to lead be

34:13
have a leadership role but to serve

34:17
those who you are leading if you will

34:20
and so the focus is there instead of on

34:24
yourself

Reflecting on Accomplishments

34:27
when you look back at your life and you

34:30
are just amazing in terms of what you

34:33
have accomplished that only now four

34:36
people in the world can ever say that

34:38
they've accomplished right now. Uh what

34:41
do you look back and think about your

34:43
life?

God's Guidance in Life

34:45
Well, I was I can see God's hand in it

34:48
now. And uh he he uh uh opened door uh

34:54
doors were open to me uh uh throughout

34:57
my uh

35:00
especially from well even at at the

35:02
Naval Academy

35:04
and uh and I was able to take advantage

35:09
of of making the right decisions and I I

35:13
can't say that I was so

35:15
uh

Making Key Decisions

35:17
wise that I'm that that the decisions

35:20
were mine only. I I know now that God uh

35:24
he he told he gave me a prophecy. I have

35:27
directed every step of your life and uh

35:31
and so I know that I realize that and I

35:33
say thank you Jesus for everything. But

35:36
uh you know making um

Advice for Young People

35:40
I tell the uh young people when I speak

35:42
to them keep your antennas up and and

35:45
listen to your intuition and your

35:48
thoughts and uh like

Career-Defining Decision

35:53
when I and this was I was in Germany in

35:59
and I was supposed to go to MIT in the

36:02
summer of 62 for a master's degree.

36:06
the Air Force was going to send me. But

36:08
I could have stayed in Germany for

36:09
another year and extend it and say,

36:12
"Okay, I'll put off MIT for another

36:15
year." If I'd have made that decision,

36:18
Chris, I would have never been an

36:21
astronaut and I'd have never

36:24
met my wife.

Choosing Education Over Comfort

36:26
Wow. So I I decided, no, I'm going to

36:29
give up this great job of flying, being

36:32
a bachelor in Germany and uh and go to

36:37
school.

36:38
And that that decision gave me an

36:41
opportunity to become an astronaut and

36:44
to meet my precious wife of 62 years

36:47
now.

Apollo 17 Backup Crew

36:48
Wow. So one thing that you mentioned

36:50
that I I didn't realize I didn't realize

36:52
that you were a backup on Apollo 17. Um,

36:56
after after Apollo 16, were you hoping

36:59
to go back to the moon or how did that

37:01
work for people?

Motivation for Backup Role

37:03
Well, uh, uh, they needed a backup crew

37:07
for 17. Uh, and uh, I said, "John, why

37:11
don't we do backup crew?" He says, "Oh,

37:13
it's a dead-end job. I don't want to do

37:15
that." I said, "John, they might break

37:17
their leg and we get to go again." He

37:20
said, "Yeah, that's a good idea." So,

37:22
uh, we volunteered because of the

37:24
opportunity on the outside chance that

37:27
if something happened, we get to go

37:28
again. So, that was our motivation.

Rapidfire Questions Begin

37:31
Wow.

37:31
Yeah.

37:32
Well, Charlie, I want to finish with 10

37:35
rapidfire questions where I'm just going

37:37
to ask you something and you say the

37:39
first thing that comes to your mind.

First Thought on Leadership

37:41
Okay.

37:42
Who's the first person you think of when

37:44
I say servant leadership?

37:47
Jesus.

Describing Charlie Duke

37:49
All right. Five words that most describe

37:51
you.

37:55
Uh focused, loving, uh dedicated.

38:00
Oh gosh. Uh kind and generous.

Favorite Book and Author

38:04
All right. Favorite book or author?

38:07
Bible

38:09
is my favorite book. Now I don't I don't

38:12
read other many books. I I uh I used to

38:15
read Tom Clansancy when he was fa a

38:17
favorite. He was a good favorite of

38:19
mine.

Favorite Food

38:20
Yeah. Favorite food?

38:24
Uh, fried chicken.

Astronaut Food Experience

38:26
I have to pause the questions and ask

38:28
here. What was it like eating astronaut

38:30
food on the moon and and like you see

38:33
all the videos of it. Was that just a

38:35
crazy experience for you?

Challenges of Space Food

38:37
Uh, yeah. Well, it wasn't very good. I

38:40
mean, it was mostly dehydrated. you had

38:42
to add water to it and uh uh and uh it

38:46
was uh nutrition, but it wasn't very

38:51
tasty. And uh

38:53
on the moon it was even worse because we

38:55
had no hot water. So everything we we

38:59
reconstituted all this food with cold

39:01
water and uh and it so we didn't eat

39:04
very much on the moon. The thing that

39:07
kept us going, I think we had a a high

39:10
energy candy bar uh velcro to the inside

39:13
of our space suit and it came up inside

39:16
your helmet right in this area and you

39:18
could reach over and bite a bite a hook

39:21
out of it. And we ate all that on the

39:24
moon and we had a bag of water uh Velcro

39:28
to our suit and inside our suit and that

39:31
straw came up on the inside over here

39:33
and so you could drink water. And so we

39:36
all uh that kept us really going. Uh it

39:40
was the candy bar was really delicious,

39:45
especially after you've been eating

39:46
dehydrated food for the last few years.

Favorite Free Time Activity

39:48
Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah.

39:50
All right. Favorite thing to do in your

39:51
free time?

39:53
Uh be with family. We have a farm. uh uh

39:58
hunting and fishing and um uh I like to

40:02
play golf, but uh just lately I haven't

40:05
had a chance to play golf much.

Surprising Fact About Charlie

40:08
What's a surprising fact about you?

40:11
I don't I don't That's hardly qu That's

40:13
a hard question. What What surprises

40:16
everybody?

40:17
Uh

Youngest Moonwalker

40:20
you know, I'd probably ask

40:21
maybe that you're the youngest person to

40:23
ever be on the moon.

40:25
Uh that's uh that's probably good. Yeah,

40:29
I'll take that. Okay.

Favorite Travel Destinations

40:31
All right. Where's your favorite place

40:32
you've been

40:35
for culture? Uh uh the capitals of

40:38
Europe like Vienna and every places like

40:41
that

40:42
for uh excitement uh from uh was at last

40:47
year we went to Antarctica.

40:49
Uh it was it was the last of the seven

40:52
continents for me to visit. So it was a

40:54
big uh uh uh you might fill that square

40:59
and uh we spent a a week in Antarctica.

41:02
Well, on a boat, but we would go we

41:04
would go ashore and uh so that was

41:08
probably one of the nic nicest trips

41:12
that we've ever had.

Moon as a Favorite Place

41:14
Wow. You're you're the only person I've

41:16
ever had on the podcast who could also

41:17
say the moon as their answer for their

41:19
favorite place. So,

41:20
oh, well, I mean, not down here. You're

41:23
right. Now, you know, uh the moon was

41:27
probably my favorite favorite place, but

41:29
uh uh it's you you ask it in the tone of

41:33
Earth. Uh and uh so I got to say uh

41:37
probably the the thrill of Antarctica

41:40
was the the place here.

Future Travel Aspirations

41:43
After checking Antarctica off the list,

41:45
is there anywhere else that you want to

41:47
go or wanted to go that you haven't

41:48
been?

41:50
Not really. Uh we've we've been just

41:53
about every well every continent and uh

41:55
we spent time in Australia, South

41:58
America, you know, uh Alaska, all over.

42:02
Wow.

42:02
Uh maybe the we we were going to go to

42:06
the North Pole, but we didn't quite make

42:08
it because of the ice. Uh maybe uh going

42:11
to the off North Pole would be

42:16
a a thrilling adventure. Okay. Uh, what

Best Advice Received

42:19
is the best advice you've ever received?

42:22
Keep your antennas up. Listen to every

42:24
thought that you have and and uh and and

42:29
respond and respond

42:32
as once I became a Christian, I just you

42:36
just know you know you know that God

42:37
wants you to do this. And so I've never

42:40
heard the voice of God audibly, but I

42:42
have an impression inside uh that spirit

42:46
to spirit and this is the way I should

42:48
go.

Importance of Servant Leadership

42:49
Wow. All right. And finally, obviously

42:51
on a podcast about servant leadership,

42:54
why do you think it's important for

42:55
people to become better servant leaders?

42:59
Well, I mean your example that you uh

43:02
that you as a servant leader, you give a

43:05
great example for those that uh you're

43:07
leading and uh you can uh uh change a

43:12
lot of lives and be in a and you could

43:15
uh have a lot of influence on people's

43:18
lives as as you put them first and

43:22
leadership and and and and I think my

43:25
example is Jesus. Jesus was a servant

43:28
leader. Uh, you know, he says, "Follow

43:31
me." But he was leading them with love

43:34
and direction and purpose and, uh, so

43:38
that's what I try to do.

Closing Remarks

43:40
Wow. Well, Charlie, thank you for giving

43:43
us your time and sharing your story with

43:45
our audience. I'm excited for everyone

43:46
to watch this. Is there any parting

43:48
words that you want to leave people

43:50
with?

43:51
I guess stay focused. uh uh listen to

43:55
the quiet uh spirit of God that uh as he

43:58
uh leads you and try to be obedient to

44:02
uh what God wants you to do.

44:05
Wow. Well, thank you, Charlie. It's an

44:07
honor to have you on and I'm excited for

44:08
people to hear your story.

44:10
Thank you, Chris. I appreciate the

44:12
opportunity. It's been a great

44:13
interview. So, God bless you and uh you

44:16
have a great 2026. Okay.

Podcast Outro

44:18
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44:21
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44:23
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