Vision Casting

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Being able to cast a vision to where

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you're going to me was always like I was

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never selling where I was because I

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always thought where I was going was

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better than where I was. And so people

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will buy into a vision if you articulate

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it.

Introducing Larry Hartmann

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Today on the servant leadership podcast,

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we welcome Larry Hartman, the CEO of ZRG

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Partners. ZRG is one of the largest and

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fastest growing executive search and

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talent management firms in the world.

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Under Larry's leadership, ZRG has

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expanded across five continents, growing

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to a global powerhouse with over 700

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employees and on their way to $1 billion

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in revenue. Larry's journey is a

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quintessential example of the American

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dream. He started his first financial

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services company right out of college,

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eventually taking it public on the

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NASDAQ before successfully selling the

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business to American Express. Larry then

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went on to help grow his lifestyle

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business to the full-scale global vision

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that ZRG has become. Join us as we talk

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about Larry's seven pillars of inspired

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leadership and practical frameworks that

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will help you become a better servant

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leader. Larry, thank you for joining us

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on the servant leadership podcast.

Larry's Journey

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Uh, it's great to be here, Chris. Thanks

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for having me.

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So, you run one of the largest

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recruiting firms in the world. Talk

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about the journey that led you to this

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point because it's an unbelievable

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journey.

Starting Out

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Um well yeah that's a long answer to

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probably a short question but you know

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really two things. So started my first

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company I right out of college grew up

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in California went to state school um

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started a business probably having no

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business doing that. Didn't know what I

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was doing with a couple partners and we

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started a business in the financial

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service space. I'll put $1,000 in a bank

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account and tried to figure it out. And

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that business ended up 10 years later

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being about an $80 million revenue

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business. And in those days we had a

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dream of taking that company public. Um

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it was something we saw some of our

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competitors doing that and it just

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seemed exciting. So we went down that

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road. Wasn't an easy road but we got the

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company public on the NASDAQ and ended

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up for three years operating as a public

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company which was an interesting

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journey. And then um successfully sold

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the business to American Express. Um,

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and we had gone from 80 million when we

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went public to 200 million plus three

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years later. And we, you know, it was a

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great outcome. And so, Chapter 1 was, I

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think, you know, a fortunate American

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dream kind of thing. Started up, it

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grew, it worked out. Um, certainly bumps

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along the way, and then ultimately

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selling the business and spent three

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years seeing what it was like working

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for somebody at American Express, which

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was fun. And then, um, started ZRG

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Partners uh, 25 years ago. And initially

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I think our company ZRG again a startup

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didn't really understand the search

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business but thought I could figure it

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out because I was a user of the services

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in my first business and thought we

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could do some things better and that

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journey just to give you I mean the fast

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track you know started off at zero um

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lifestyle business probably the first 10

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12 years and then decided to go raise

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capital about a decade ago and we

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brought in private equity capital um and

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went at that point we're just about 10

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million in revenue and we went from 10

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million to 40 million with our first

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private equity sponsor. Then we brought

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in a second private equity firm. Um, and

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that was interesting and kind of changed

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the strategy a bit to diversify from

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pure exec search into doing interim

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leadership, doing consulting of

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leadership, doing some other things. And

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what's happened the last five years has

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been pretty exciting. We've gone from

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that 40 million base to over 300

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million. Company now is 700 employees

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around the world. We operate in the US,

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Europe, Middle East, Asia, Australia,

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Brazil, and uh it's been just a really

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fun ride to learn new things and you

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know have more of a global business and

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you know we're excited about where we

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sit today serving a great set of

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clients.

Growth Through Acquisition

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Wow. Well, what a cool journey. I mean

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when when I bumped into you, you were

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keynote speaking at a national

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conference, right? And you kind of

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talked about your seven pillars of

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inspired leadership and I want to get

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into that but the but the journey of

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deciding to grow through acquisition was

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one that fascinated me and I know that's

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one of the seven a little bit. How did

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you come to that conclusion when you

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were already doing so well?

Private Equity Influence

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Yeah. So interestingly I mean our first

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business we did no acquisition. We

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organically grew um and it ended up

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working out great. second business. Um,

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we had done one acquisition um, prior to

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bringing in private equity capital.

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Ironically, it was a firm in Wheaten uh,

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in your hometown there that we bought a

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nice search business that was uh, small

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that we were able to fold in. But then

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as I brought in private equity, our

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second private equity sponsor, they

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said, "Listen, we love your growth. It's

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been great, but we have a playbook of

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doing add-ons and M&A and we want to

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accelerate the growth in a bigger way.

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And so, um, it was kind of the playbook

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of the private equity firm. And so, you

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know, for me, I had been acquired. I've

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been through that experience at American

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Express. We had done, you know, a deal,

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but it was like, no, we're going to buy

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things. And so, you know, what's

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happened the last five years, we've

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bought 17 businesses. So, it's been a

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lot of M&A. like we're buying, you know,

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three deals a year at least, looking at

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10, you know, I mean, it's been a big

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part of my role now is is looking at

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organizations and looking at fit,

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structuring deals, and then trying to

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integrate them so that it ends up being

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successful and not challenging. So, um,

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I'd say that's, you know, that was kind

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of the playbook of private equity. And

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you know, as you've heard me talk at the

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conference, I mean, I'm a fan of raising

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outside capital. That helped accelerate

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our growth. And, you know, having smart

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private equity guys supporting us has

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been certainly a accelerator for where

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where we've been able to land right now.

Maintaining Vision

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How did you make sure you didn't lose

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sight of the vision of the company?

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Because I know one of the things that

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you talk about is is the importance of

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casting a vision. And so, that kind of

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changed at the point probably when you

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decided, hey, it's not going to be

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lifestyle. this is gonna be like we're

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gonna go for it.

Adapting to Growth

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Yeah. And I'd say, you know, what I see

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businesses go through different stages,

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right? I mean, and you know, some people

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say, did you set out to build a 700

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person organization? Um, in all honesty,

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no. I mean, I set out to build the

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company. The first stage was, you know,

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after I sold my first business, I had

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done well financially and I wanted to be

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around for all my kids activities. I had

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three boys and they were train playing

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all sorts of sports and I wanted to be

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there. So the business afforded me the

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lifestyle to, you know, 3:00 go watch,

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you know, a traveling basketball game or

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a baseball game. And that chapter of

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life for about 8 10 years was perfect.

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But then my last son went off to

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college. And it was kind of that time of

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like, hey, I'm ready to go hard again.

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I've got time. I want to do something

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beyond just a lifestyle business. And

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so, you know, the vision became, okay,

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now we're going to go into growing. And,

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you know, when you bring on capital, you

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don't have the option not to grow. you

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know, so it's kind of like signing up

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for okay, uh, you know, you're going to

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have to figure out, you know, ways to

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grow organically through M&A, through

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always. So, I was ready for that

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challenge and it the vision didn't

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change. It was building a great company

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that served clients and and all those

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kind of things, but I think the mandate

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just certainly became a lot larger and

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and and bigger in scope.

Seven Pillars of Leadership

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Wow. I I love that. You know, when you

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were talking at at the conference, I was

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taking notes so fast I could barely keep

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up. I mean there was it was like

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everything you were saying was good and

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and I'm not just saying that it stem

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from what you called I think the seven

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pillars of inspired leadership. I know

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you wrote a book on it. Talk about how

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you came up with these lessons because

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it it was a journey to come up with

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them.

Reflecting on Leadership

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Yeah. Well, you know, again, 40 plus

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years in business, you know, I think

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I've got the advantage of of having been

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through a lot and then, you know, having

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the opportunity to look back and reflect

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on what were the key drivers of my

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success in terms of as a leader in

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building building the businesses and so

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it was kind of that reflection and you

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know from time to time Chris I've been

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asked to certainly speak on leadership

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and you know so it was kind of like

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coming up with what are those key

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drivers that for me I could share and

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ended up being seven pillars that I

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found that um you for me and and I think

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it especially applies to entrepreneurs

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and people in service businesses. You

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know, I think some people who invent

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great products probably their pillars

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would be different, but I was an

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entrepreneur in a service business that

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had to compete on, you know, you know,

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different factors. And so, you know, I

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think, you know, probably for you, you

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know, being in a in a service business

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as well is probably resonated and being

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an entrepreneur. But that's kind of the

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genesis of it was just kind of

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reflecting back and looking at what were

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the keys I could share with others that

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might help them in their own growth of

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their business. And part of it too just

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wanting to inspire good leadership like

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our business is placing leaders in

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organizations and we certainly come in

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to replace bad leaders you know I mean

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it's it happens I mean an example I mean

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you know we do a lot of work in the

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sports space so you know we just

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recently you know we do a lot of head

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coach football searches we did the

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Michigan head coach football search well

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as you know the story of the Michigan

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head coach he got in a little bit of

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trouble ended up you know behind bars

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and so like when leadership goes is bad,

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it has, you know, a ringing effect,

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right? But when you get it right, it's

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exciting. And so for me, inspiring

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leaders to to think about how they're,

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you know, impacting others, not just

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business results, but the people they

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work with was probably part of my

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journey of saying, "Hey, you should

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leave that legacy of people feeling like

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you left them in a better spot." So, as

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you know, three of the seven pillars are

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people related. Uh, which to me is

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critical.

Casting Vision

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So, so the first pillar casting a vision

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that captures hearts. I one of the

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things that I put in my notes was that

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uh one of the themes was sell where

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you're going and and I was thinking

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about it as leading a business or anyone

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listening to this that's really leading

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something trying to take it to the next

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level.

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They've got a vision for where they're

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going that no one else can see. And

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sometimes it feels like no matter how

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much we say it, uh it's hard for people

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to catch on. they think it's too

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audacious or too fast or they just don't

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get where we're going. How do you help

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people sell where they're going but also

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cast vision that people can catch on to?

Vision Selling

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Yeah. I mean, so for me, you know, I've

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always in building a business has been

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an underdog recruiting talent from

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bigger, more established firms. And so,

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you know, in when you're a small firm

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trying to attract great talent, they

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don't wake up saying, "I want to go work

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for a 20 person firm or a 50 person

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firm." like they have this dream of

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working for the greatest companies,

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right? So, being able to cast a vision

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to where you're going to me was always

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like I was never selling where I was

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because I always thought where I was

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going was better than where I was. And

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so, you know, you can people will buy

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into a vision if you articulate it. So,

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for to me and and I think I shared this

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a little bit, you know, when we were 25

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million, it was we're going to 100

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million. That was a big mark. That would

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have put us in the top 10 of global

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retained search firms in the niche we're

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in. got to 100 million. Then it was like

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we're going to be, you know, the biggest

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outside the big five or we're going to

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get to 200 million. Now, you know, we're

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casting a vision to a billion dollar

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business. And people think I'm crazy.

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Like it's like, well, why why would you

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say that? It's like, well, it's worked

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out before. And what's the downside? If

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I get to 700 million instead of a

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billion, is that, you know, it's okay.

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So, like when you and when you cast that

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vision, it's not just words. Like, I'm

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putting it into powerpoints. I'm putting

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it in in this chart showing this is

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where the organization's going. Now,

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there are some proof points of growth

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like, hey, you can show we're growing at

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a nice pace, but people will buy a

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vision if they can see it. And I think

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what a lot of entrepreneurs and founders

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don't do is bring that vision to life.

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And the vision being more than just what

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we want to do, but the impact you're

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going to have, the size of employees

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that are going to be there, the

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opportunity to grow within that vision

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for that employee, that's what people

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will buy into. So I think when you think

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about that vision um it's more than just

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words. It is it is in the DNA of

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description into you know charts graphs

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how how you're how you're selling your

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opportunity. Hm. The the thing that I

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think was most challenging for me and it

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started with your second pillar, but it

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kind of carried on through the next few

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was the idea of good communication,

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right? I think you called it

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communication to connect like the leader

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dialogue, right? Uh I thought it was

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interesting and I' I've heard like

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people um people learn different ways

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like they retain some of what they hear,

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they retain more of what they read and

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more what they experience or whatever.

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But the way you talked about

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communication communicating to connect

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was unique. talk about how you've seen

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that work out as it relates to helping

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hit those visions, the big the big

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goals.

Communication to Connect

0:12:57
Yeah. So, to me, always, you know,

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people get promoted, noticed, and win

0:13:03
because of how they communicate. Like,

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you can be the smartest person, but if

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you can't articulate and and share in a

0:13:09
way that you're seen, you're not going

0:13:11
to be you're not going to win, you're

0:13:13
not going to be recognized. So, I think

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it applies to someone in their career

0:13:16
journey. It applies to someone selling a

0:13:18
client. it it applies to someone raising

0:13:21
capital. And so, you know, to me, it's

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these all these mediums of how you

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communicate, it's how you write, it's

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how you speak, it's how you present. Um,

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and so I I shared, I think, you know,

0:13:31
part of the the seven pillars is

0:13:33
looking, you know, my journey looking at

0:13:35
some of the business icon journeys of

0:13:37
great communicators like Steve Jobs who

0:13:39
certainly some masterclass in

0:13:41
communicating. But the one that I really

0:13:43
point to and I think it it is dead on is

0:13:46
you know how how did Jesus communicate

0:13:49
to be able to unlock what he was doing.

0:13:52
He was the most amazing storyteller. Um

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and you go through kind of the the New

0:13:57
Testament stories the way he was able to

0:13:59
get message across through storytelling.

0:14:01
The story of the prodigal son being a

0:14:04
story of a of a son who left the father

0:14:06
and took all his life's inheritance and

0:14:08
decided to go out and waste it on you

0:14:10
know bad things and then when it was all

0:14:12
over fig it's better to come back to the

0:14:15
home and just be a slave and how the

0:14:17
father welcomed him back with open arms

0:14:19
and like that whole story brought to

0:14:21
life the essence of how you know h how

0:14:24
god looks at us and our ability to have

0:14:26
free will and choose what we want but he

0:14:28
didn't just say it he told it through

0:14:29
story he did it through the story of the

0:14:31
good Samaritan uh you know and there's

0:14:34
just so many good examples. He also

0:14:36
always spoke in kind of metaphors um you

0:14:39
know in terms of how he would describe

0:14:41
things. So if you look at you know how

0:14:42
the brain processes you know he took

0:14:45
simple ideas and made people think about

0:14:47
them. So I think great storytellers do

0:14:49
that. So um I think on the communicating

0:14:52
one there's just so much we could spend

0:14:53
an hour just talking about that. But you

0:14:56
know, one of the other things that Jesus

0:14:58
modeled that as a leader I try to model

0:15:00
is you have to be a great listener. You

0:15:02
have to ask great questions. So, you

0:15:04
know, he would come to people and he'd

0:15:05
ask a question to them before he would

0:15:07
heal them or before he would deal with

0:15:09
them. And there's so many great stories

0:15:10
you find. And why did he do that? But he

0:15:13
was a listener, right? He and and and by

0:15:16
asking questions and listening, you

0:15:17
engage people in a different way. So, I

0:15:19
think just the art of communications for

0:15:22
any leader is something you can always

0:15:24
improve. you can model and it is a big

0:15:28
differentiator in terms of your ability

0:15:30
to connect with people in every way to

0:15:33
get them on your team to win a client to

0:15:34
grow to raise capital. So, um I I think

0:15:37
there's nothing more important in terms

0:15:39
of a skill set to develop.

Team Development

0:15:42
Well, yeah, it's about partially

0:15:44
developing that in your team and finding

0:15:45
people who already have some of those

0:15:46
skills, right? I mean, you talk about

0:15:48
the who is crucial, right? Selecting

0:15:50
your team for tomorrow's triumph. You

0:15:52
know, that's something that uh we've

0:15:54
wrestled with with in our hiring

0:15:56
journey. And I know people think about,

0:15:58
do I bring on a my first employee? Do I

0:16:00
not bring on my first employee? For us,

0:16:02
we've been in seasons where we've

0:16:04
literally said in our leadership team

0:16:05
meetings,

Hiring Challenges

0:16:06
we just need to hire anyone that

0:16:08
breathes. Like that's how bad that we

0:16:10
need to hire somebody right now. And

0:16:12
there's other points where it's like,

0:16:13
hey, this is such a key role. We just

0:16:14
need to be patient and wait and and it's

0:16:17
an inoff role and there's no one local

0:16:19
that can take this job. How do we do it?

0:16:21
and we just wait for years before

0:16:23
finding the right person. How do you

0:16:24
balance all that as you're trying to

0:16:26
help people? You're building your own

0:16:28
team, but also you've helped tons of

0:16:30
people, major companies build their

0:16:31
teams.

Finding Talent

0:16:32
Yeah. Well, well, certainly, you know,

0:16:34
now you're getting into the wheelhouse

0:16:35
of what I do and what our company does.

0:16:37
But, you know, certainly finding great

0:16:39
talent is you can't grow without being

0:16:42
able to expand what you do. And so, you

0:16:44
know, certainly for us, there's a couple

0:16:45
of things that that, you know, really go

0:16:47
into that. And, you know, the best

0:16:48
talent isn't typically looking. they're

0:16:50
not on the wanted, you know, sections.

0:16:53
You got to go find them. I mean, so our

0:16:55
business is finding people that aren't

0:16:57
interested, telling a story about a

0:16:59
company and getting them to consider

0:17:01
something they wouldn't have considered.

0:17:02
That that's the essence of really good

0:17:04
kind of retained search work. You know,

0:17:06
we're not finding someone who's in

0:17:07
between jobs, who's unhappy. We're

0:17:09
finding that a player um that needs to

0:17:12
be convinced. So, you know, to me, it's

0:17:14
it's, you know, one, what's your

0:17:16
methodology to attract talent, right? So

0:17:19
for you, I'd say, hey, okay, what do

0:17:20
you, you know, how are you going about

0:17:22
building a talent pool of people that

0:17:23
could join the firm? What is the story

0:17:25
you tell? Which goes back to the vision

0:17:27
stuff we're talking about? Like what are

0:17:28
they buying into? Um, and then I think

0:17:31
having enough selection there to do it.

0:17:33
Um, you know, being able to have two or

0:17:35
three choices, you know, to pick from is

0:17:37
pretty critical. And sometimes in the

0:17:39
market it feels like you can't find

0:17:40
anybody. There's other times when

0:17:42
there's tons of talent available. So I

0:17:44
think just as leaders, you know, being

0:17:46
able to scale yourself and again, you

0:17:49
know, and I and I have this discussion a

0:17:51
lot, you don't always find people that

0:17:53
are as good as you for sure. You find

0:17:56
people that compliment you that can do

0:17:58
60% of what you can do, but you fill in

0:18:00
gaps, you know, with people that, hey,

0:18:02
this person's not perfect, but they're

0:18:04
really good at this one area. I will

0:18:06
give them that one area. You have to

0:18:07
kind of divide up sometimes jobs into

0:18:09
the skill sets you can find as you scale

0:18:11
a business. you know, if you're in that

0:18:13
in that fight where it's difficult to

0:18:15
attract people in your early days.

Hiring Smart People

0:18:17
Yeah. How do you balance that with the

0:18:19
thing the thing I hear most commonly

0:18:21
from business leaders that have been

0:18:23
there, done that, that have grown like

0:18:25
crazy. They always talk about how they

0:18:27
hired people smarter than them. And they

0:18:29
always talked about like I've seen so

0:18:30
many interviews where the CEO says, "I

0:18:33
was the dumbest person in the room

0:18:34
because I got everyone around me way

0:18:36
smarter than me." And some of that's

0:18:38
false humility, but there is some aspect

0:18:40
of that that I'm always curious about.

0:18:42
How much do you need to make sure that

0:18:43
you are not very smart in the rooms that

0:18:46
you're in within your own company?

Assembling a Smart Team

0:18:49
Yeah. I mean, so I mean I look at it I

0:18:52
mean smart I mean a good leader doesn't

0:18:56
have to be a mensa genius. They just

0:18:59
have to be a good leader and assemble

0:19:01
around them talented people in the

0:19:03
functions that you need to fill. So, you

0:19:05
know, smart people like I've got a

0:19:07
really good CFO. He's amazing. He's been

0:19:09
a CFO for three private equity backed

0:19:11
companies. I have a chief marketing

0:19:12
officer that was the CMO for Grant

0:19:15
Thornton and he worked at Equifaxes at a

0:19:17
head of market. So, like they are

0:19:19
brilliant in their respective areas.

0:19:21
I've got a CIO that was NASDAQ's chief

0:19:24
information officer. Like, so like if

0:19:26
you think about like, okay, in the early

0:19:28
days of a business, you know, I'm doing

0:19:30
some marketing. I'm figuring out what

0:19:31
computers to buy and I'm figuring out,

0:19:33
you know, how to balance books on an

0:19:35
Excel spreadsheet. Well, luckily, as

0:19:38
I've grown, I've been able to bring in

0:19:39
these experts that are are, you know,

0:19:42
I'd say absolutely way better than I am

0:19:44
at each of the individual functions. But

0:19:47
if you look at the other side, the

0:19:48
leader at the top has to be able to

0:19:50
manage all the functions and manage

0:19:52
these leaders. So like the skill of the

0:19:54
leader, right? The CEO is someone that's

0:19:57
got to assemble the team, put the right

0:19:59
skill sets around that compleiment you.

0:20:01
And again, as a CEO, you have to be

0:20:04
smart about people that don't always

0:20:06
disagree with you, you know, that people

0:20:08
that will challenge you. And I, you

0:20:09
know, and you probably have heard this

0:20:11
through your other talks with CEOs,

0:20:13
being being a CEO can be a lonely spot

0:20:15
because everybody wants to agree with

0:20:17
you and think your jokes are funny. And

0:20:18
my wife always reminds me your jokes

0:20:20
aren't that funny and they only agree

0:20:21
with you because you're the CEO. And

0:20:23
it's like, I get that, but I want

0:20:24
leaders that will challenge me, that'll

0:20:26
disagree with me. Like, I'm saying if we

0:20:27
don't have disagreement, like we're not

0:20:30
having a healthy discussion. The end of

0:20:31
the day, I may make the ultimate

0:20:32
decision, but if I haven't fostered an

0:20:35
environment for my people to be able to

0:20:36
speak their mind and bring up, you know,

0:20:38
opinion, then you're not assembling the

0:20:40
right group of people to create the kind

0:20:43
of outcomes you want to create. And that

0:20:44
that to me is that skill of a you know

0:20:47
an okay smart CEO which I would say I

0:20:50
was a good B student at a state college

0:20:52
who I have really brilliant people in

0:20:54
their functions around me that you know

0:20:56
certainly did a lot more academically

0:20:57
and you know corporate career-wise than

0:20:59
I ever did but together that makes a

0:21:01
team that's pretty powerful.

Investing in People

0:21:03
Yeah.

0:21:04
I I think when when I was listening to

0:21:07
you share the the first time, uh this is

0:21:11
where it got tough for me because you

0:21:13
talked about how you assemble a team and

0:21:15
then you talked about how you have to

0:21:17
really pour into them, right? You talked

0:21:19
about the importance of investing in

0:21:21
your people and and I wrote down etch

0:21:23
and I've probably like thought about

0:21:24
that etch concept a bunch of times

0:21:26
since. Like I've written it down

0:21:28
literally and just started writing

0:21:29
opportunities where this could come

Etch Concept Introduction

21:31
talk about how you came up with the etch

Investing in Teams

21:33
concept and why you encourage leaders to

21:35
kind of think through that methodology.

21:38
Yeah. So I mean to start with I mean so

21:40
you can hire a good team but the the

21:42
next two pillars are really investing in

21:44
that team and then creating loyalty in

21:46
the team because a you know they've got

Developing Team Loyalty

21:49
to have they've got to be developed in

21:51
your likeness and then they have to be

21:53
loyalty so you don't have turnover and

21:55
you know I would say this and you know

21:58
people work for people they don't work

22:00
for companies and so when you look at

22:02
like loyalty it's around the leader they

22:04
work for when we recruit in someone

22:06
we're trying to take out a CE you maybe

22:08
a a CFO or a VP of marketing. If they're

22:11
so loyal to their boss, they're very

22:13
hard to extract for us. But if there's

22:15
no relationship and no rapport with

22:17
their boss, the company loyalty is not

22:19
as strong as the individual loyalty. So,

22:21
I've always seen that you've got to

22:23
develop a chemistry with your team and

22:25
that comes through investing in them. It

22:26
comes through, you know, spending time

22:28
with them. So, you know, my model of

22:30
investing always got down to spending

22:32
time off sites. You know, we do a lot of

22:34
stuff every quarter with bringing

22:35
leaders, you know, to a day and a half

22:37
where it's half day meetings, half day

22:39
of enjoyment, dinners, all that kind of

22:41
stuff because getting to know them and,

22:43
you know, individually is important. Um,

Etch Concept Details

22:45
that's one. And then the concept of edge

22:47
and and this was really kind of looking

22:50
at different leaders um and saying, you

22:53
know, h how should we model how to

22:56
develop leaders? And so the ETH concept

22:59
you mentioned is kind of an acronym for

23:01
different ways you should impact your

23:04
team. The first E, you first E of Ech,

23:07
you know, in in terms of of um, you

23:09
know, looking at that and and I'll kind

23:11
of walk you through the, you know, kind

23:13
of the the ETH concept is encourage,

23:15
right? So are you taking your team,

23:18
encouraging them to do all they can do?

23:20
Are you being supportive to them? The T

23:22
is teaching. Like there are times you

23:24
have to develop them and teach them

23:26
specifically advance their thinking

23:27
about why you're making the decision you

23:30
know how are you you know going about

23:32
raising capital so they can grow showing

23:34
them opportunities for growth the C is

23:37
challenging um and I think you know

23:39
being able to lay out to someone what

23:41
they could be encouraging them that hey

23:43
you could one day run this company I'm

23:45
pouring into you because I think the

23:47
challenge you know the challenge for you

23:48
is you can do more and I want you to

23:50
take step up in these areas because I

23:52
see that the challenge part that there's

23:54
more you'd be able to accomplish. I

23:56
think you can take this task on. Um and

23:58
the and the H is holding people

24:00
accountable. So I think at the end of

24:02
this what I've seen through leaders and

24:04
we do leadership development work in our

24:07
in our practice and and I see different

24:09
leaders, but typically leaders are good

24:11
at one or two of those things. They're

24:13
great encouraers. They're good teachers.

24:15
they're uh maybe they just like to hold

24:17
people accountable which sometimes

24:19
that's the one that you probably half

24:21
the leaders they just want to hammer

24:22
people and say get the job done.

Balancing Leadership Skills

24:25
You need to have at times all four of

24:28
those elements and it's rare to find

24:29
that. What I've seen is leaders you know

24:31
can can probably excel and you know

24:33
myself included I've seen that through

24:35
the years you know being able to hold

24:37
people accountable. I'm really good at

24:38
at encouraging. I'm teaching. I can

24:40
challenge them. At the end of the day,

24:42
holding them accountable was maybe

24:44
something I had to push harder to

24:46
develop the framework to make sure we

24:48
got things done. I just expected them to

24:50
be adults and get things done. But times

24:52
people have to be held accountable. So,

24:54
I think if if a leader were to take

24:56
inventory of themselves, I'd say, you

24:57
know, where do you fall? Where's your

24:59
strengths? Where do you want to develop?

25:01
But a well-rounded, I think strong

25:03
leader is going to have elements of all

25:05
of those through the journey of working

25:07
with your direct reports. Um, and if you

25:10
don't, I'd challenge you to say, "Hey,

25:11
think about the areas you're not leaning

25:14
into the edge concept and and what could

25:16
you develop there?"

Cultivating Loyalty Challenges

25:18
Yeah, I I love that. I think uh those

25:21
make tons of sense to me and I've been

25:24
able to think through ways where I just

25:26
even write somebody's name down and then

25:27
I've kind of worked through that etch

25:29
concept since then a few times and it's

25:31
been really helpful. Uh

25:32
yeah,

25:33
the etch concept is great when it comes

25:35
to just work, but then I think the part

25:38
that really gets difficult to me is this

25:40
cultivating loyalty, right? That comes

25:43
next. It's

25:44
how do you cultivate loyalty? Because

25:46
one of the things that we've talked

25:48
about is how do you keep work as work

25:50
and let people live their lives outside

25:51
of work and not have to think about

25:53
work? And and when I hear you doing

25:55
these off-sites and other things outside

25:57
of work to help really build loyalty, I

25:59
could see how it would happen. But it

26:00
becomes so consuming for people. So talk

26:03
about how you've done that.

Balancing Work and Life

26:05
Yeah. I mean, so it maybe starts with

26:08
I'm in a fortunate position. I've been

26:10
able to keep a pretty balanced life.

26:12
Like in my life, I've got four things I

26:14
try to balance. Certainly faith, my

26:16
faith is number one. Uh my family is

26:18
number two, my work is number three, and

26:20
my fun is number four. And I have a lot

26:22
of fun. I play a lot of golf, and I love

26:23
fly fishing and being outdoors. And I

26:25
mean, so like I like all those things,

26:27
right? And and so, you know, I think I

26:29
live a life of balance and and you've

26:31
probably seen Chris, you know, there's a

26:33
lot of highly successful CEOs that have

26:36
completely broken families and their

26:37
life is a mess. And to me, that's not

26:40
winning. Um, winning is having success

26:42
in in your occupation and being good at

26:45
what you do. Uh, and then having the

26:47
other elements that are balanced out.

26:49
That's just always been more important

26:50
to me. So, part of that is bringing that

26:52
to a team and saying, "Hey, we value

26:54
work life balance." Now work life

26:57
balance is a misnomer because I was

26:58
thinking about this like the time you

26:59
spend at work is probably 70% of the

27:02
balance in that right and if you look

27:03
about how much time I at church or in a

27:06
men's group versus I'm at work like it

27:08
is a not you know a huge disparity even

27:11
family you're not with as much as you

27:12
work and fun. So, but I think laying out

27:15
like what your life should be and

27:17
realizing that people should have that

27:19
same balance and you respect that and so

27:21
I think this loyalty starts with what

27:23
are the goals of your people like what

27:25
are they trying to accomplish like your

27:26
direct report like what do they want to

27:28
be how does your vision align with what

27:31
they want to do in their life and if

27:33
you're connecting to like hey I'm at

27:34
this stage where I've got my employees

27:36
got three kids and they've got games and

27:38
they want to do this you support that

27:40
for this period of life knowing they're

27:42
going to be back on the computer it's 7

27:44
to 10 at night and they're going to get

27:45
the job done. There's no compromise in

27:47
quality, but there is some appreciation

27:49
for like, hey, this is a a period of

27:51
your life where I get that's where you

27:53
are. I've seen just people going through

27:55
periods where it changes. Like last kid

27:57
goes off to college, they're going 100%.

27:58.
Or they have sickness, they need to

28:00
spend two months. So, I think really

28:02
being connected to what's going on in

28:03
someone's life, their journey, you know,

28:05
as a leader and it's if it's genuine and

28:08
you care about them, you can support

28:10
them and still get excellence out of

28:12
them. So I don't I think the trick like

28:13
to your point is yeah work is all

28:15
consuming but someone who's all consumed

28:18
by work isn't necessarily going to be at

28:21
their best. So how do you help them

28:22
maintain balance of time off of of

28:25
refreshing and I think that's you know

28:27
that's part of what what we try to do in

28:29
terms of our teams and but it's got to

28:30
be live it's got to be a value that the

28:32
CEO believes too. So, I think I've been

28:35
fortunate to be able to have that as as

28:37
part of my foundation of what, you know,

28:39
I live every day trying to keep that in

28:40
mind.

Vision and Capital Growth

28:42
Right. One of the things I love about

28:44
how you structured it is as as you cast

28:47
the vision, you communicate well, you

28:49
get the right people, you get them

28:51
invested, you focus on cultivating that

28:54
loyalty, then as new visions shape up

28:58
for where the company can grow, it's a

29:00
lot easier to get people on board with

29:01
that vision, right? So, it kind of goes

29:03
back to like you talk about capital in

29:06
in your book and in your talking and the

29:08
importance of using capital. I I

29:10
actually I was laughing. I've told a

29:12
bunch of people this since, but it's

29:13
like how you just talked about how you

29:15
like to use other people's money to

29:16
grow, you know, and it's like what a

29:18
better way to grow. I've never really

29:20
thought about it that way. But how do

29:22
you see people then deciding, okay,

29:25
we're we're a startup, we need money. Or

29:27
we're a million dollars, we need money.

29:28
We just passed five or 10 million, we

29:30
need money. or a big company uh 40 $50

29:33
million and now they think wow should we

29:35
really take the next level go public or

29:38
work with um work through M&A like how

29:41
should people be thinking about that?

Capital and Business Growth

29:44
Yeah. And and you said it. I mean, I I'

29:46
I've benefited from capital both, you

29:49
know, my first business, we raised

29:51
public capital, sold American Express,

29:53
you know, we had a lot of outside debt

29:55
and things that helped get us to where

29:56
we were going. And so, you know, I think

29:58
I came into with a bias that, hey, that

30:00
worked out pretty well. Um, but I think

30:02
that the part of the story that gets

30:04
lost is my first business, we didn't go

30:07
public till 10 years in business. We

30:09
didn't go public to 80 million in

30:11
revenues through self-funded operations.

30:14
ZRG was 10 years of figuring the

30:17
business out, figuring out the missteps,

30:19
figuring out how we would grow. Once I

30:22
felt confident that um I I had unlocked

30:25
how we could do it, then I went out and

30:27
raised capital. So, you know, I've not

30:29
been a person that goes and raises

30:32
venture capital on an idea and hoping it

30:34
works out. So I've taken the approach of

30:36
like I will prove it out and then I will

30:38
bring in you know probably you know not

30:40
not venture capital but more growth

30:42
capital to accelerate something I've

30:45
already proven. That's just how I've

30:46
done it. And then to me it's just once

30:49
you once you get to that point it's are

30:51
you comfortable with the risk of giving

30:53
up some control for the joy of scale?

30:56
And I've always said that's fine. You

30:57
know I want to I want to be around smart

31:00
people that drive me. I want to be

31:02
around a board of directors that will

31:03
help challenge me. I want to be with

31:04
private equity guys that are giving me

31:07
new ideas. So, I think it's it's, you

31:08
know, been um maybe a lack of fear. Like

31:12
I'm not afraid of failing. Like I'm

31:14
afraid of not trying. I'm afraid of

31:16
staying still. I would rather figure out

31:18
how to grow and give it a shot. And you

31:20
know, I always thought what's the worst

31:21
case? Doesn't work out, doesn't work

31:22
out. But um it has, you know, so um

31:27
that's been my view on it. So I'm as I

31:29
talk to people, I I build businesses to

31:31
monetize them. Like that's always been

31:33
kind of, you know, it's been great.

31:35
America is a great country. You can

31:36
build something, sell it, and you know,

31:38
and in today's world in private equity,

31:40
you can sell it over and over again.

31:42
It's kind of be on our we'll be in our

31:43
third round of private equity in the

31:44
next year. I mean, every time you sell

31:46
the private equity, you're you're taking

31:48
more money off the table, but you're

31:49
still keeping skin in the game. So, it's

31:52
become this really interesting, you

31:54
know, way for companies to grow where

31:56
you can monetize equity, but you don't

31:59
lose the juice and excitement of

32:00
something you're building.

Embracing No for Yes

32:02
Yeah, that's so good. Uh, okay. Your

32:07
last pillar that you talked about in the

32:08
book and as you speak was embracing no

32:11
to find your yes. Talk about what that

32:14
looks like because it's so idealistic

32:18
and I think that's the one that my wife

32:19
and I talk about all the time, even

32:21
before I heard you talk about it, but

32:22
you you shed some light on it in some

32:24
really interesting ways.

32:26
Yeah. So, I mean, I'll go back to like

32:28
maybe I I was conditioned that no wasn't

32:31
bad. I mean, my early days when I was in

32:33
high school, um, and I grew up in a very

32:36
conservative family and I saw other

32:38
kids, you know, wearing polo shirts and

32:40
I was wearing J C Penney shirts and I

32:42
said to my mom, I want to buy those

32:44
shirts. She said, "Good. Go get a job

32:45
because we don't spend that kind of

32:46
money." So, I ended up getting a job in

32:48
a call center. And I sat all through

32:50
high school making cold calls, setting

32:52
appointments in a call center. Um then I

32:54
ran a call center and then I went and

32:56
did outside sales through college. So I

32:58
learned the value of working numbers to

33:00
get to a no. So that was in me early on

33:02
just by you know happen stance call it.

33:05
Uh and then I think through the business

33:07
journey you know you're selling a

33:09
product or service you know you can

33:11
count the nos you need to get to a yes.

33:13
I mean it's you know you got to go call

33:14
on 20 companies to get a sale. And that

33:17
was always part of in me. You know I

33:18
found it when we did our first public

33:21
offering. And we went out to, you know,

33:23
I think a hundred investment banks to

33:25
try to find someone that would be

33:26
interested in underwriting our deal.

33:28
Three months of nos, constant nos.

33:30
You're too small. You're not in the

33:31
right sector. We think, you know, you

33:33
don't have the right this, the right

33:34
that. No, no, no. We finally found one.

33:36
Yes. That one. Yes. Brought a

33:38
co-underwriter. We went public. It

33:40
flourished. Like, so I've seen and the

33:42
same thing I've seen through, you know,

33:44
my private equity raise. When I did my

33:45
first deal with CRG, there wasn't a

33:48
single retained executive search firm

33:50
that's private equitybacked. And so

33:51
everybody said, "Well, what do they know

33:53
that we don't know? We, you know, it

33:55
seems like there's something wrong and

33:56
we're nervous because they must know

33:57
something we don't know." So it took me

34:00
talking to again 75, you know,

34:03
outreaches, 25 conversations, 10

34:06
interest to get down to two term sheets.

34:08
Like, so to me, that's always been like,

34:09
hey, if that's what it means, then I

34:12
just have to work the funnel. I got to

34:13
figure out who are the hundred I'm

34:14
starting with to get to the 25 to get to

34:16
the five to get to the one. Um, and I

34:18
think a lot of people don't enter, you

34:22
know, with that mindset that every no is

34:24
your closer to your yes. Um, you know,

34:27
if you believe in what you're doing and,

34:28
you know, you have, you know, some some

34:30
grounding in and you know, what you're

34:32
doing is real. So, um, I I think it's a

34:35
superpower. I think in terms of, you

34:36
know, the ability to say, you know,

34:38
measure measure the nose to get to your

34:41
yes embraces. is I think persistence and

34:44
you know getting good things that

34:45
wouldn't otherwise happen.

Saying No Personally

34:46
I love it from a business standpoint and

34:48
it's exactly how I think on the personal

34:51
side. Something that you bump into a lot

34:53
is there are so many opportunities that

34:55
come your way and you have to say no to

34:57
some of them

34:58
but it's really hard to pick and choose

35:00
what to say no to when there's not a

35:02
measurable outcome of I'm going to get

35:04
to my next yes potentially. How do you

35:06
think about it on the personal side?

35:08
Yeah, and actually that's a good point

35:10
because there's two two sides to the no

35:11
is a superpower, right? It's hearing the

35:13
nos, but it's also as a busy leader, you

35:17
have to be really your time is your most

35:19
valuable asset. And how do you spend

35:21
that time? And if you're trying to live

35:23
a balanced life, which I try to do, then

35:25
it's like you have to make every day

35:27
count and you want to you want to have

35:29
time to be able to get to the gym to

35:30
stay healthy and you want to have time

35:31
to see your family at night, then then

35:33
time is very important and you get asked

35:35
to do a lot of things. So I think it's,

35:38
you know, it's having a filter to what

35:41
are your clear goals and objectives

35:43
you're trying to accomplish, right? And

35:45
making sure how does it fit within those

35:47
things on the business side. And then,

35:49
you know, certainly finding time. I

35:51
mean, there are certainly things I do to

35:53
give back. Um, I do a lot of work with

35:56
nonprofit leaders on leadership

35:58
development, which is a give back. I

35:59
spend time mentoring others that ask for

36:02
help. And so I kind of lay out, hey, I

36:05
can afford to mentor two or three people

36:06
this year. I can afford to do this. So

36:08
within that framework, I kind of set out

36:10
like what what can I do? And then, you

36:13
know, try to when it gets too much, I

36:15
have to say, listen, I don't have

36:16
bandwidth right now. Let's talk next

36:18
year or, you know, you know, you have to

36:20
say no to stuff. But but I think being

36:22
intentional about, you know, where you

36:24
want to spend your time, but opening up

36:26
time for opportunities that go beyond

36:28
just the business side, I think, is

36:30
important for leaders. I mean, I think

36:31
if you've had some level of success, you

36:34
should be pouring into others as a give

36:36
back and finding ways to do that through

36:38
through mentoring or developing other

36:40
leaders or whatever you can do, I think,

36:42
is is is a worthy thing to consider

36:44
doing.

Evaluating Leadership in M&A

36:45
Yeah. I mean, you're you're looking at a

36:48
lot of amazing leaders as you go to buy

36:50
companies even, right? We talk a lot

36:52
about servant leadership on the podcast.

36:54
One of the things I'm curious about when

36:55
you go to buy these different companies,

36:57
especially because you're in growth

36:59
mindset right now, you you're doing a

37:00
lot of M&A. What are you looking for in

37:03
the key leaders at the companies outside

37:05
of just balance sheet stuff and things

37:07
that matter on the money side? What are

37:09
you looking for with the people?

37:11
Yeah, I mean, so you we're an

37:13
interesting we we're buying businesses

37:15
that have niches of recruiting that add

37:18
to our kind of um our portfolio. So we

37:22
bought a sports recruiting business, a

37:23
media recruiting business. So you know

37:25
we certainly look for businesses that

37:26
are financially successful with have

37:29
niche expertise with leaders that would

37:32
fit our culture. Now our culture is one

37:34
that you know the things that we look at

37:36
is are they collaborative? Would they

37:38
work well in a team? Do they have the

37:40
right confident but humble nature? So I

37:43
think there's that element of you know

37:45
talk about humility. Humility is

37:47
important, but also you've got to be

37:48
confident to to be able to command a

37:51
client's time and attention. So, it's,

37:53
you know, you it's important you have

37:55
that executive presence that commands

37:58
both. So, I think it's those kind of

37:59
things that we're looking for. You know,

38:01
culture fit for us is a collaborative,

38:03
humble, confident person that brings

38:06
commercial success and trying to figure

38:08
that out like how will they fit within

38:10
our group and um you know that those are

38:12
the things we look for and certainly you

38:14
know topline you know great business

38:16
great you know success in what they've

38:18
done is a pretty good predictor what

38:20
they're going to do. I mean I think

38:21
someone's past is is pretty indicative

38:24
of what they can do assuming they can

38:26
operate in a new environment which is

38:28
what

38:29
we have to try to determine. Can they go

38:30
from a 20 person firm to be part of a

38:33
700 person firm without it being, you

38:35
know, totally disruptive to what they're

38:38
used to doing?

Rapidfire Questions

38:39
Wow. Well, Larry, I really appreciate

38:43
all of this wisdom. Uh, I want to finish

38:45
with 10 rapidfire questions, though.

38:48
Okay.

38:48
I'm gonna ask you, and you just say the

38:50
first thing that comes to mind.

38:52
Who's the first person you think of when

38:55
I say servant leadership?

38:58
Jesus.

38:59
All right. What are the five words that

39:01
most describe you?

39:06
Focused, patient, disciplined,

39:10
um, commercial, growthminded.

39:14
Love it. Favorite book or author?

39:18
Um,

39:20
yeah, I would certainly say I'm reading

39:22
the Bible every day. So, that's, you

39:24
know, the 47 authors of of the Bible are

39:27
certainly there. But I enjoyed the book.

39:28
Uh, ag the agony and the ecstasy. The

39:31
Michelangelo story was really

39:32
fascinating. Love the Roman period.

39:35
Wow. All right. Favorite food?

39:39
French toast. I'm a breakfast guy and I

39:41
do love your wheat and breakfast. You

39:42
guys have the best breakfast around in

39:44
your town.

39:45
Yes, I love that. All right. Favorite

39:48
thing to do in your free time.

39:50
I am a avid lover of the game of golf.

39:54
So, I spend too much time on the golf

39:56
course trying to get better.

39:58
What is a surprising fact about you?

40:03
Um, well, when people come off of Zoom

40:06
that I'm 6'6 inches tall like this, they

40:08
always say like, I didn't think you were

40:10
that tall, but I'm a big tall guy, so

40:13
that surprises people when they go from

40:15
Zoom to person.

40:17
All right. Favorite place you've ever

40:18
been?

40:21
I love Rome.

40:23
I do love visiting Rome.

40:26
Place you want to go that you have not

40:28
been to yet?

40:32
Probably New Zealand.

40:35
All right. What's the best advice you've

40:37
ever received?

40:38
Stay balanced.

40:40
Yeah. All right. And finally, a podcast

40:42
on servant leadership. A lot of people

40:45
are listening with that lens already,

40:47
but why should people care about

40:49
becoming better servant leaders?

Importance of Servant Leadership

40:52
Well, I think a lot of what we talked

40:54
about, you know, is you're serving

40:56
whether you're serving a client, whether

40:58
you're engaging a team, it's being there

41:01
for them and and getting their buy in

41:03
and getting the most out of them. And

41:04
and certainly the, you know, the concept

41:06
of servant leadership as modeled

41:08
through, you know, through Jesus is

41:10
powerful. I think one of the things I

41:12
would say though, you know, and I think

41:14
it's unbelievably right on how you think

41:17
about servant leadership, but I think

41:18
the seven pillars talks about it digs

41:20
into a lot more of what Jesus really did

41:23
on leadership, right? I mean, to me

41:24
that's like servant leadership is 20% of

41:26
what he did as a great leader. The other

41:28
part was he cast a great vision. He

41:30
built a good team. He invested in the

41:32
team. He, you know, he's he communicated

41:35
in an amazing way. So when you pick

41:37
apart, you know, servant leadership is

41:39
part of it and it's a really important

41:41
part, but the other elements that are

41:43
modeled through Jesus's servant

41:45
leadership are kind of the foundation

41:47
that I think you find interestingly

41:49
pulled out in the book and found some

41:51
certainly some parallels in the things I

41:53
tried to do in building my

41:54
organizations.

Recruitment and Leadership

41:56
Wow. Well, that's so good, Larry. If

41:58
people are in the need of recruiting and

42:02
even trying to wrestle with should I

42:03
bring on recruiters, should I not?

42:05
Should I get a search firm? Should I

42:06
just post jobs? How should they be

42:08
connecting with your team and why do you

42:11
recommend it?

42:12
Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Um,

42:15
certainly, I mean, again, you've heard

42:16
me talk a little bit about if you want

42:18
to find the best talent, they're not

42:20
looking. And if you just look at the

42:22
people, you know, you're not casting a

42:24
wide enough net. So, I do believe if

42:26
you've got the luxury to be able to

42:28
spend time and a little bit of money to

42:30
get it right, you're way ahead. And so,

42:32
you know, using a great firm to help

42:34
fill key roles, I think will will help

42:37
you find the right kind of people. I

42:38
described for you, you know, my chief

42:40
marketing officer who was the CMO of

42:42
another I mean, we we did we buy our own

42:45
fried ice cream. We do internal searches

42:47
getting five, six, seven candidates,

42:49
interview, vet them, put them through

42:50
that process. So that I think is part of

42:53
what a great search firm would do. Our

42:55
firm, you know, ZRG has grown because we

42:57
bring some really cool technology and

42:59
data to the process of selection. We

43:01
haven't talked about it much, but you

43:02
know, we we have some really interesting

43:04
things around helping clients understand

43:06
and score candidates on key attributes,

43:09
measure culture fit, take interview

43:11
feedback, aggregate it into a score. So

43:14
we've kind of institutionalized a way to

43:16
make great decisions. So that's probably

43:18
the secret sauce of our growth. um which

43:21
has been been really fun. So um I'd say

43:23
that's probably why why our firm would

43:26
be a good one to talk to. And certainly

43:28
through our website zrggp partners.com

43:30
you can find us. There's

Industry Expertise

43:33
emails you can

43:34
connect to. You know if you're in an

43:36
industry we have 11 industry groups

43:37
we're in. We have partners that

43:39
specialize in industrial consumer

43:41
healthcare media. So I think it's you

43:42
know certainly an expert who knows your

43:44
area. Um you can be found on the website

43:48
of ZRG. Um but hopefully that's helpful.

Future Collaboration

43:48
Super helpful. Well, thank you for your

43:50
time and sharing all this wisdom with us

43:52
and maybe sometime if your game we'll

43:54
have you back and just talk about what

43:56
you look for in great hires separately

43:58
and how that process works too because

44:00
getting getting some insights on that

44:02
secret sauce I'm sure would be amazing.

Book Availability

44:04
I'd be happy to come back and share with

44:05
that Chris and and I'd be again for

44:07
those who are interested in the book you

44:09
can you find it on all major book

44:11
sellers. It's on audio book on Audible

44:13
and uh also it's even free on Spotify if

44:16
you have Spotify plus you can listen to

44:18
it. So hopefully it's helpful to any

44:20
leader wanting to improve their craft.

Book Benefits

44:22
Uh it's helpful to fathers who want to

44:24
be better, you know, better fathers and

44:26
parents. There's a lot of stuff in

44:28
there. I hope that'll just create a, you

44:30
know, a framework to think about, you

44:31
know, improvement. So

Conclusion

44:33
yeah, and that's a great point. We'll

44:35
link it in the description and uh people

44:37
can listen to it from there. So thank

44:39
you, Larry, and look forward to talking.

44:42
Appreciate the time.

Podcast Closing

44:43
Thank you for listening to this episode

44:44
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

44:47
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

44:49
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

44:51
below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit

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44:57
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45:02
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