00:00:00
quit living is that the purpose of life

00:00:02
is to arrive safely at death. Live your

00:00:04
life in a way that's worth telling

00:00:05
stories about. I just I think some

00:00:09
people so busy climbing the ladder of

00:00:10
success, they fail to realize it's

00:00:12
leaning against the wrong wall. If you

00:00:14
succeed at the wrong thing, you failed.

00:00:24
Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

00:00:26
we welcome Mark Batterson, the lead

00:00:28
visionary of National Community Church

00:00:30
in Washington, DC. Mark is a New York

00:00:32
Times best-selling author of over 20

00:00:34
books, including The Circlemaker, Win

00:00:36
the Day, and Gradually Then Suddenly,

00:00:38
which have impacted millions of people.

00:00:41
Under his leadership, NCC has become one

00:00:43
of the most innovative and influential

00:00:45
churches in America. Famous for its

00:00:47
marketplace approach to ministry, NCC

00:00:50
owns multiple properties near Capitol

00:00:51
Hill and operates Ebenezer's Coffee

00:00:54
House, the largest fair trade coffee

00:00:56
house in DC. Mark's journey is a

00:00:58
masterclass in holy curiosity and the

00:01:00
power of dreaming big while staying

00:01:02
humble. Mark, thank you so much for

00:01:05
joining the Servant Leadership Podcast.

00:01:07
Hey Chris, great to be with you.

00:01:10
This is an absolute treat for me. Uh

00:01:13
because I told you this, but I first

00:01:15
bumped into you in 2017

00:01:18
and heard you give a talk that

00:01:20
absolutely rocked my world and I have

00:01:23
consumed so much of your content. So to

00:01:24
have you here, I'm like, how are we

00:01:27
going to fit this into 30 minutes? But

00:01:28
we're going to make it work.

00:01:30
Listen, we'll talk fast. How does that

00:01:32
sound?

00:01:33
So, okay, give people a little bit of

00:01:35
backstory before we dive into details.

00:01:37
You run one of the largest churches in

00:01:39
DC and have been doing this for a long

00:01:41
time. Talk about how you got to where

00:01:43
you are and what your journeys looked

00:01:44
like.

00:01:45
Yeah. Well, the first attempt failed uh

00:01:48
at the ripe old age of 22. Uh it's

00:01:50
amazing how much you think you know at

00:01:52
22. So, we actually tried to start a

00:01:54
church in the Chicago area. It failed.

00:01:57
But one of the best things that ever

00:01:59
happened to us, the cure for the fear of

00:02:01
failure is not success. It's failure in

00:02:04
small enough doses that you build up an

00:02:06
immunity to it. And so we ended up like

00:02:09
just packing everything into a 15 foot

00:02:12
U-Haul U-Haul and starting over in DC

00:02:15
and we started with a core group of 19

00:02:17
people. 30 years later um you know we we

00:02:22
reaching thousands of people and uh

00:02:24
really that's my my day hat. So I

00:02:27
pastored this church from 19 people to

00:02:30
where we are today for 30 years. But

00:02:32
then I write books. Uh 26 books. Um

00:02:36
that's kind of my side hustle, my early

00:02:38
morning hustle. And uh and then you know

00:02:42
I have a little entrepreneurial itch. So

00:02:45
we've got a coffee house on Capitol Hill

00:02:47
and an event venue and we can talk about

00:02:49
some of those things. But actually that

00:02:52
whole description, Chris, just sounds

00:02:54
like I have attention deficit disorder.

00:02:56
That's what it sounds like. But I I like

00:02:59
going in a lot of different directions.

00:03:02
You're still figuring out what you do

00:03:03
for a living is what I'm getting.

00:03:05
It is like I I'm still not sure what I

00:03:07
want to do when I grow up. And uh but

00:03:10
we'll find out.

00:03:11
Uh I mean, you got into book writing and

00:03:14
uh I want to hear about that journey.

00:03:16
I'll preface it with in my real life,

00:03:20
like outside of recordings and stuff, I

00:03:22
quote the Bible a lot, but the number

00:03:24
one thing I quote is actually a quote

00:03:26
that is from you that I heard back in

00:03:28
2017 and I've continued to say all these

00:03:30
years, and I want to know how you even

00:03:32
got to this point. So, talk about your

00:03:34
book writing. And then the quote that I

00:03:35
steal from you all the time, I sometimes

00:03:37
credit you, sometimes not. Um, is work

00:03:41
as if it fully depends on you and pray

00:03:44
as if it fully depends on God. And I

00:03:46
know you write a lot about prayer.

00:03:47
You've written a lot about a lot of

00:03:48
stuff. But yeah, how did your journey

00:03:50
start with writing?

00:03:51
Yeah, I I felt called to write at 22,

00:03:54
but I had also taken the GRE. It showed

00:03:57
a low aptitude for writing. In other

00:03:59
words, whatever you do, don't write

00:04:00
books. So, Chris, I I'm not naturally

00:04:03
gifted as a writer. Uh what I did is I

00:04:07
read 3,000 books over 13 years and kind

00:04:10
of reverse engineered them. I figured

00:04:13
out, you know, how other people write

00:04:15
that that I enjoy. And I I leverage my

00:04:19
35th birthday as a deadline. And

00:04:22
honestly, a dream without a deadline is

00:04:25
called a wish. So, at some point, you

00:04:28
have to kind of throw down the gauntlet

00:04:31
and uh wrote a book titled In a Pit with

00:04:33
a Line on a Snowy Day. Very long title.

00:04:37
Um but uh that that book over 20 years

00:04:41
uh man about half a million copies and

00:04:44
that was kind of the first one out of

00:04:46
the gate and then uh and then book six

00:04:49
the circle maker and book seven draw the

00:04:52
circle those are the books that just

00:04:54
started kind of impacting um multiples

00:04:58
of that and uh and so I just I I don't

00:05:02
know I I when I when I sit down at my

00:05:05
writing desk I literally take off my

00:05:08
shoes because I feel like it's holy

00:05:10
ground. And I I don't type on a

00:05:13
keyboard. I feel like I worship God with

00:05:15
26 letters of the English alphabet. And

00:05:18
I I really feel like I'm doing what I'm

00:05:20
called to do. But again, I would

00:05:22
reiterate, not a natural gifting. I

00:05:25
really did have to work like it depends

00:05:27
on me. Um and then God God has blessed

00:05:30
it. And so we we actually formed a

00:05:32
prayer team and uh we always pray Lord

00:05:35
put those books in the right hands at

00:05:37
the right time. So Chris, for me uh a

00:05:40
book sold is not a book sold, it's a

00:05:41
prayer answer. And so that's that's the

00:05:44
short version of uh the writing side of

00:05:47
the equation.

00:05:49
You've talked a lot about prayer in some

00:05:51
of those books. How have you seen prayer

00:05:54
show up for our audience? Because some

00:05:55
of our audience is going to be allin and

00:05:58
like, man, I love praying every day. and

00:05:59
others are going to be like, "What the

00:06:01
heck is he even talking about?"

00:06:02
I know. And there are so many different

00:06:04
kinds of prayer. There's more

00:06:06
contemplative centering prayer. Uh

00:06:08
there's kind of interceding for other

00:06:10
people. Um there's a form of prayer. I

00:06:12
think prayer is a form of dreaming.

00:06:14
Dreaming is a form of praying. Uh but I

00:06:17
do think prayer is how we write history

00:06:19
before it happens. Uh I I think prayer

00:06:22
is the difference between the best we

00:06:23
can do and the best God can do. So maybe

00:06:25
I can share just one story. And uh in

00:06:29
August of 96 when when the church was

00:06:33
like 19 people, I was reading Joshua

00:06:36
1:3. It says, "I'll give you everywhere

00:06:38
you set your foot." And I just felt like

00:06:40
God was calling me to pray a perimeter

00:06:42
around Capitol Hill. And it turned into

00:06:45
a 4.7 mile prayer walk. And I need to

00:06:48
put this out there that I wasn't praying

00:06:51
for property. I was just praying for

00:06:52
people like, "Lord, let your kingdom

00:06:54
come. Let your will be done in DC as it

00:06:57
is in heaven."

00:06:59
But 30 years later, we own seven

00:07:01
properties on that prayer circle worth

00:07:03
about $100 million, including a city

00:07:05
block that uh we have renovated the 1891

00:07:10
Navyyard car barn about 100,000 square

00:07:12
feet, not far from the cap. And that is

00:07:15
kind of our base of operations. But but

00:07:19
wow, I just gave the long version in two

00:07:22
minutes because we were in rented

00:07:24
facilities at eight campuses for 20

00:07:27
years. So, but if you lead something

00:07:30
long enough, you're not leading the same

00:07:32
thing. Even if it has the same name, you

00:07:35
have to kind of continue to adapt and

00:07:37
evolve and grow. And when the leader

00:07:40
stops growing, I think the organization

00:07:43
stops growing. So I I really think

00:07:46
leadership is all about self leadership

00:07:49
and if you keep leading yourself well

00:07:52
God has a way of entrusting kind of more

00:07:54
and more to you and uh so again just a

00:07:58
little snapshot of uh of prayer and the

00:08:02
role that it's played uh at NCC.

00:08:06
One of the things I'm curious about and

00:08:08
and I don't know the right way to ask

00:08:10
this without offending some people but

00:08:12
that self leadership is so important.

00:08:14
Um, and I want to hear how you think of

00:08:16
self leadership for you and how others

00:08:18
should think about it. A lot of people I

00:08:21
think the first thought is self

00:08:23
leadership is important because I want

00:08:24
to get somewhere and be bigger, better,

00:08:27
whatever. And those aren't bad things

00:08:29
necessarily on their own, but untapped

00:08:31
or un uh unhinged, they could turn into

00:08:34
bad things. How do you view that self

00:08:36
leadership and growth and and all of

00:08:39
that?

00:08:40
Yeah. Well, I think the goal of going

00:08:43
after a a goal is not achieving the

00:08:46
goal, it's who you become in the

00:08:48
process.

00:08:49
And that's kind of with my pastor hat on

00:08:52
that sometimes we think the great

00:08:54
commandment commandment and by the way I

00:08:56
mean Jesus brilliant with a British

00:08:59
accent like unbelievable. He takes 613

00:09:03
kind of dos and don'ts. This the Torah

00:09:06
and then some of the laws that have been

00:09:08
added to it and he comes up with a

00:09:11
singular great commandment. But that

00:09:13
great commandment is three-dimensional,

00:09:15
not two-dimensional. It's not just love

00:09:17
God and love people. It's love God

00:09:20
heart, soul, mind, and strength. Uh and

00:09:23
love your neighbor as yourself.

00:09:27
So Chris, the battle always begins in

00:09:31
our mind, in our heart. Like the hardest

00:09:34
person to forgive is the person that

00:09:36
looks back at me in the mirror every

00:09:37
morning. And what I've got to do is uh

00:09:42
lead myself well with certain

00:09:44
disciplines. Um and I we probably don't

00:09:47
have time to unpack that, but a few

00:09:50
years ago wrote a book called Win the

00:09:52
Day. And that book in particular is

00:09:54
about cultivating kind of daily dis uh

00:09:58
uh habits that destiny is not um a

00:10:01
mystery. Destiny is daily decisions.

00:10:04
Don't worry about outcomes. Focus on

00:10:06
inputs. And so it's that growth mindset,

00:10:10
that learning posture. Uh in the words

00:10:12
of Albert Einstein, never lose a holy

00:10:15
curiosity. It's kind of this approach to

00:10:17
life that I'm going to keep learning,

00:10:19
keep leaning in. And one of our core

00:10:22
values is if you stay humble and stay

00:10:24
hungry, nothing God can't do in you or

00:10:26
through you. But I think at the end of

00:10:28
the day, Chris, like I I don't know. I

00:10:32
kind of love this that God cares more

00:10:34
about you than what you do. Uh cares

00:10:37
more about me than a resume. it it's

00:10:42
always about us becoming the kind of

00:10:45
person uh well and I'll just put my

00:10:48
cards on the on the table at the end of

00:10:50
the day. I want to be just like Jesus. I

00:10:52
want to treat people the way he treated

00:10:54
them. I want to think like he thought. I

00:10:56
want to navigate very difficult

00:10:58
situations with grace and truth. And

00:11:01
Jesus was full of both of those things.

00:11:03
So I think at the end of the day it's

00:11:06
kind of who are you becoming in the

00:11:08
process? But I do think God gives uh big

00:11:12
dreams to make big people. Show me the

00:11:14
size of your dream, I'll show you the

00:11:16
size of your God because it keeps you on

00:11:18
your knees. Um you really have to stay

00:11:21
dependent upon him.

00:11:23
I love that. Well, one of the things

00:11:25
that I have been impressed about from

00:11:27
the outside by you is how you come up

00:11:30
with so much content. Not just like

00:11:32
being a pastor, which that already is

00:11:34
overwhelming, like preaching a ton and

00:11:36
speaking a ton, but the books like the

00:11:38
content is very different and you're

00:11:40
coming up with a ton of content. You

00:11:42
you've had a recent book um gradually

00:11:45
then suddenly and I want to hear what

00:11:48
was the journey like from writing 20ome

00:11:50
books to now getting to this book. And

00:11:52
how do you keep the energy alive where

00:11:54
they're like they might not all be

00:11:56
bestsellers? I know a bunch are, but

00:11:58
it's like they all seem right on point

00:12:00
with like just the people that are

00:12:02
reading them, myself included.

00:12:04
Well, can I can we do a quick hack and

00:12:07
then maybe maybe I can answer that

00:12:09
bigger question?

00:12:10
Yeah.

00:12:11
So, you know, some of those 3,000 books

00:12:13
I read uh are over my shoulder. Um but I

00:12:18
never read a book without a pen. What's

00:12:20
the point? So when I read kind of five

00:12:24
things I do with a book that this and

00:12:26
come up with your own system, right?

00:12:28
Like this is just one of my rules of

00:12:31
life is let God be as original with

00:12:33
others as he was with me. So this isn't

00:12:35
prescriptive, but you do have to read

00:12:38
very intentionally. So for me, Chris,

00:12:41
level one is underline something in a

00:12:43
book. Level two is an asterisk in the

00:12:46
margin. Level three is circling it on

00:12:49
the page. Level four is an upper dog ear

00:12:52
and level five is a lower dog ear. So,

00:12:56
I've been doing this for 25, 30 years.

00:12:59
Every book I read, I can pull it back

00:13:02
off the shelf and I can reaccess the

00:13:04
good stuff, the meat, you know, in a

00:13:07
matter of minutes. And so I think the

00:13:11
only way that I've created, you know, as

00:13:14
much content as I have is I just am

00:13:19
really good at cataloging things. And so

00:13:22
um the idea for gradually then suddenly

00:13:25
it comes from a 1926 Ernest Hemingway

00:13:28
novel. Uh a character says, "How did you

00:13:31
go bankrupt?" And the rather famous

00:13:34
reply is two ways. gradually then

00:13:38
suddenly which I I think is pretty

00:13:41
funny. Um but then the book really flips

00:13:44
it and that's also how you get out of

00:13:47
debt. It's how you run a marathon, write

00:13:49
a book, start a business, build a

00:13:51
marriage. It's how everything happens

00:13:54
like it's going to happen gradually.

00:13:56
Then suddenly you're going to

00:13:58
overestimate what you can do in a year

00:13:59
or two. You're going to underestimate

00:14:01
what God can do in 10 or 20 or 30. That

00:14:03
book in particular, I felt like I want

00:14:06
30 years of leadership under my belt

00:14:08
before I write it. So, I was intentional

00:14:11
with that one. Let's keep that one

00:14:13
tucked away until I have enough scars

00:14:16
and failure stories to be able to uh

00:14:20
speak with any level of authenticity.

00:14:23
So, that's kind of where that that book

00:14:26
came from. And much of it is about self

00:14:29
leadership, about long vision, long

00:14:31
obedience in the same direction and then

00:14:34
long legacy. And I would just throw this

00:14:36
out there. Legacy is not what you

00:14:38
accomplish. Legacy is what others

00:14:40
accomplish because of you. So I think

00:14:42
there's this mindset of let's do what we

00:14:45
do uh for the third and fourth

00:14:47
generation. Um, and I think I think that

00:14:49
mindset is really important. Uh,

00:14:52
especially in a day and age where we

00:14:54
want things to happen at the speed of

00:14:55
light, but they generally happen at the

00:14:57
speed of a seed that has to take root

00:14:59
before it can bear fruit.

00:15:01
Wow, that's so good. I I love that

00:15:04
concept of legacy being like the wake

00:15:06
you've left around you. Not even behind

00:15:08
you, but like around you, how you've

00:15:09
lifted other people up. It's not just

00:15:11
about what you leave behind. Um, one of

00:15:14
the things that hit me about this book,

00:15:16
and maybe it was intentional, maybe it

00:15:17
wasn't, or maybe it's just been how

00:15:19
God's worked in your life. Uh, you

00:15:21
started a lot about like, and maybe not

00:15:24
started, I don't know the order of all

00:15:25
your books, but you talked a lot about

00:15:27
calling. You've talked a lot about

00:15:28
prayer. You talk a lot about risktaking

00:15:31
and then and then all of that is leading

00:15:33
into this gradually then suddenly. Talk

00:15:35
about why you even got into kind of

00:15:37
talking about some of the big risks

00:15:38
you've taken. Maybe you could share one

00:15:40
story here about how you've seen risk

00:15:42
show up and maybe it pays off, maybe it

00:15:45
doesn't.

00:15:46
Well, listen, I'm wearing my Ebenezer's

00:15:49
coffee house hat and uh it's one of the

00:15:52
biggest risks we ever took.

00:15:54
We uh I was walking by what was a crack

00:15:57
house. It was a dilapitated property.

00:16:00
Um, the crazy thing, and this is 25

00:16:03
years ago, Chris, but it was five blocks

00:16:06
from the Capitol, but it was just this,

00:16:08
I mean, there were center blocks in the

00:16:10
doors and windows, and I was walking by

00:16:14
and I just felt like that still small

00:16:17
voice said, "Mark, this crack house

00:16:19
would make a great coffee house." And

00:16:21
long story short, five years of circling

00:16:25
it in prayer. And and we didn't have the

00:16:28
greatest business plan. In fact, we sent

00:16:30
our office manager to work at Starbucks

00:16:33
for six months to um steal their green

00:16:36
apron book and get a few ideas.

00:16:40
But uh here we are about to celebrate

00:16:42
our 20th birthday and every penny of

00:16:45
profit we give to kingdom causes. So we

00:16:48
have funded a lot of things including uh

00:16:51
our DC dream center in Ward 7 uh which

00:16:54
is an incredible ministry to youth and

00:16:57
to kids and uh and so the Lord has

00:17:00
blessed this coffee house and it's

00:17:03
become this place where church and

00:17:06
community can cross paths and so um but

00:17:09
it was a quantum w risk because

00:17:13
uh it was a $3 million price tag when it

00:17:16
was all said and done. And that's and

00:17:19
and we got the vision when we were like

00:17:21
less than a hundred people and our

00:17:23
income as a church was less than

00:17:24
$100,000. So it was crazy sauce. It was

00:17:28
just But Chris, it was just crazy enough

00:17:33
to think that maybe, just maybe, because

00:17:36
we can't do this uh in our own wisdom or

00:17:39
with our own resources, maybe God's in

00:17:41
this. And so uh it wasn't even zone

00:17:44
commercial, it was zone residential. So,

00:17:46
we had to literally get the property

00:17:48
reszone. So, it was a $3 million risk.

00:17:53
Um, that I look back in on it and it

00:17:55
feels a little naive. If we knew then

00:17:57
what we knew now, I wonder if we would

00:17:59
have done it. Um, but I think there are

00:18:02
moments where um and and well, let me

00:18:05
lean in here and this is a word for

00:18:07
someone. You can't just count actual

00:18:10
cost. You have to count opportunity

00:18:12
cost. And so we could have said, "Hey,

00:18:15
actual cost 3 million. It's not a risk

00:18:17
we're willing to take." But man, we

00:18:21
would have cost ourselves millions of

00:18:24
customers millions of dollars and we

00:18:28
would have left an opportunity on the

00:18:30
table. And at the end of your life, I

00:18:33
think the greatest regrets are going to

00:18:34
be the inaction regrets. the

00:18:36
opportunities that we would have, could

00:18:38
have, should have, and we just didn't

00:18:40
have the guts um to go after it. And so,

00:18:44
I do think you have to be you have to do

00:18:47
your due diligence. I'm not asking

00:18:49
anybody to go out and quit their job

00:18:50
tomorrow, like like come up with the

00:18:54
business plan, do the homework, but then

00:18:56
at some point, faith is taking the first

00:18:59
step before God reveals the second step.

00:19:02
Wow. I love that. One thing that I

00:19:05
wonder is what happens because people,

00:19:08
they might have something on their heart

00:19:10
and they're willing to take the risk.

00:19:12
They're willing to take that first step

00:19:13
and it doesn't work out. It doesn't turn

00:19:15
into a 20-year run of a coffee house. It

00:19:17
doesn't turn into a great church

00:19:19
impacting millions of people. It it just

00:19:22
is a dream that dies. Talk about that.

00:19:25
Yeah. Well, National Community Church

00:19:30
is our second chance. This was our

00:19:31
second attempt. So, I'd put that out

00:19:33
there first that our first attempt

00:19:35
didn't work. And I will say this, it was

00:19:38
scarier going, you know, trying it for

00:19:40
the second time, Chris, because if you

00:19:43
fail once, it might be an anomaly. If

00:19:45
you fail twice, it might be saying

00:19:47
something about you. So, it was scary

00:19:50
giving it a second chance. And the other

00:19:53
thing I would say is I I I don't bat a

00:19:56
thousand. I don't bat a thousand in

00:19:58
prayer. I don't bat a thousand. Like we

00:20:01
we I remember remember when the iPod

00:20:03
came out and it was kind of all the

00:20:05
rage. Um this is so embarrassing, but we

00:20:08
started uh a business called God iPod

00:20:13
that would preload iPods and but but can

00:20:17
I just say this? Just because it rhymes

00:20:20
doesn't mean it's a God idea. So we we

00:20:23
failed to calculate in our business plan

00:20:27
that you can just download by streaming

00:20:30
it. Um you don't need us to download it

00:20:33
for you. And so the funny thing is that

00:20:35
thing went belly up and my my wife and I

00:20:38
fortunately we were the only investors

00:20:41
so all the money that was lost was ours.

00:20:44
But I don't regret it. I listen you're

00:20:47
you're not going to bat a thousand. uh

00:20:49
you're going to have some failures, but

00:20:52
uh I think uh generally speaking,

00:20:55
failure is poorly managed success and

00:20:57
success is well-managed failure. And so,

00:21:00
are you kind of learning from those

00:21:03
experiences and then taking those

00:21:06
learnings into whatever that next

00:21:08
attempt is?

00:21:10
Wow. on the success is I I forget how

00:21:13
you phrased it right there, but like

00:21:14
just the it's some forms of failure

00:21:17
coming together and working out. Yeah.

00:21:19
Uh talk about the real estate stuff you

00:21:21
have going on because people might not

00:21:22
realize from the outside when they just

00:21:24
see you on stage, oh, there's a pastor

00:21:26
with a successful church.

00:21:28
That's a that's a portion of it, but

00:21:30
there's a whole different side to you

00:21:32
and what you've got going on.

00:21:34
Yeah. Well, and I I better preface this

00:21:36
by saying it's not about brick and

00:21:38
mortar. It's about flesh and blood,

00:21:40
hearts and souls. And I I I the if I'm

00:21:43
in a business, I'm in the father's

00:21:45
business. And the father's business is

00:21:47
loving people and redeeming people and

00:21:50
growing people and

00:21:53
um turning beauty into ashes, giving the

00:21:55
oil of joy for mourning and the garment

00:21:58
of praise for the spirit of heaviness.

00:21:59
So at the end of the day, it's about

00:22:01
people. Um, we never thought we would

00:22:04
own property because it it was going for

00:22:07
five million an acre 30 years ago. And

00:22:11
guess what? That price has gone up. Um,

00:22:14
so we never thought we would own

00:22:16
property, but uh after that prayer walk,

00:22:20
we started, man, we just started

00:22:23
acquiring some properties and miracle

00:22:26
after miracle. But right now I'm in my

00:22:30
office which is one corner of that

00:22:32
prayer circle at 8 and M Street right

00:22:35
across from the Latroe gate which is the

00:22:38
original gateway to DC. It's the

00:22:40
entrance to the Navyyard and this city

00:22:43
block. It was the 1891 Navyyard car

00:22:46
barn. So it was the street car building

00:22:48
100,000 square feet and we bought it for

00:22:52
29.3 million. We put about 20 million

00:22:55
into it. It's where we have church on

00:22:58
the weekends. It's where we do house of

00:23:00
prayer on Thursday nights. But you know,

00:23:02
last year 150 rental events coming in

00:23:05
and using our venue revenue streaming 2

00:23:08
million a year. And you can start doing

00:23:10
the math. 15 years it starts paying for

00:23:13
itself. A and we get to serve our

00:23:16
community. We get to people have people

00:23:18
come in and be in our space. And so I

00:23:22
think there are ways of doing church no

00:23:23
one's thought of yet. I I think there's

00:23:25
something about not getting I if you

00:23:28
want to repeat history, do it the way

00:23:30
it's always been done. If you want to

00:23:31
make history, dare to be different. And

00:23:34
so we really think that the church

00:23:37
belongs in the middle of the

00:23:38
marketplace. A church that stays within

00:23:39
its four walls isn't a church at all. So

00:23:42
along with the coffee shop, we've got a

00:23:44
a movie theater, the only movie theater

00:23:46
on Capitol Hill. Um and um different and

00:23:50
we own an art gallery. We just bought an

00:23:52
art gallery. Um, like and I know I I

00:23:56
some people might be saying like, "Oo,

00:23:57
you're getting outside your lane." And

00:24:00
and that's where I would say you're

00:24:02
probably right. Like I mean, I don't

00:24:04
know that we're qualified for any of

00:24:06
this stuff. But I would say this that

00:24:09
God isn't interested just in revival in

00:24:12
the church. He's interested in the

00:24:14
redemption of all things and creating

00:24:16
outpost of Eden. Whatever it is that you

00:24:20
do, it's about doing it, exercising your

00:24:23
time, talent, and treasure, which are

00:24:25
gifts from God, and stewarding those in

00:24:28
a way that is a blessing to other

00:24:31
people. So, we we got our hands in a few

00:24:34
things. Um, but kind of fun. They're

00:24:37
they're fun endeavors. And I I think

00:24:41
Jeremiah 29 says, "Seek the peace and

00:24:44
prosperity of the city." And uh if it

00:24:47
prospers, you will prosper. And this was

00:24:49
a message to the Israelites when they

00:24:51
were in captivity in Babylon. And so

00:24:55
we're not just trying to build a church.

00:24:56
We want to bless a city to the third and

00:24:58
fourth generation. And so th those are

00:25:01
kind of some of the endeavors that we're

00:25:03
involved in. And we also know in a

00:25:06
generation this will be worth 2x 3x and

00:25:10
uh you know we gota we got to steward

00:25:14
whatever the Lord entrusts to us. So

00:25:16
yeah.

00:25:17
Yeah. What are some things like this?

00:25:19
Like you've clearly wrestled with a lot

00:25:21
of stuff like Lord what do you want me

00:25:23
doing? What do you think from the

00:25:25
outside are things that people on this

00:25:27
podcast should be wrestling with that

00:25:30
maybe they aren't wrestling with right

00:25:32
now? Oh man. Well,

00:25:37
you know, I have a life goal list, 100

00:25:40
goals. And

00:25:43
I felt so good about my original list. I

00:25:46
did this in my 30s. And then I realized,

00:25:49
Chris, like, man, some of these goals

00:25:53
are pretty selfish, Mark.

00:25:56
They're more about you, uh, than kind of

00:25:59
a higher a higher purpose. So I I I

00:26:03
think you have to be careful that are

00:26:06
you living for the applause of people or

00:26:08
are you living for the applause of nail

00:26:10
scarred hands? Um quit living is that

00:26:13
the purpose of life is to arrive safely

00:26:15
at death. Live your life in a way that's

00:26:17
worth telling stories about. I just I

00:26:20
think some people so busy climbing the

00:26:22
ladder of success they fail to realize

00:26:24
it's leaning against the wrong wall. If

00:26:26
you succeed at the wrong thing, you

00:26:29
failed. Like I would rather fail at the

00:26:32
right thing knowing that hey I'm trying

00:26:35
to do something that even if I fail I'm

00:26:38
gonna feel pretty good about the

00:26:39
attempt. So I I just think sometimes you

00:26:42
have to step back and take a long hard

00:26:44
look in the mirror and just make sure am

00:26:48
I doing the right things for the right

00:26:50
reason. So back to those life goals uh I

00:26:53
I did two things um when I felt a little

00:26:56
bit convicted. One is I started adding a

00:26:59
relational element to every life goal.

00:27:02
So instead of instead of doing a

00:27:04
triathlon, let me do it with my

00:27:07
13-year-old son as a right of passage.

00:27:10
Um and I started like I don't want to

00:27:13
just go up the Eiffel Tower. I want to

00:27:15
kiss my wife at the top of the Eiffel

00:27:18
Tower. That's twice as good. Um so I

00:27:21
started adding relational elements. And

00:27:23
then Chris, the other thing that I did

00:27:26
was I turned some of those financial

00:27:28
life goals that were getting goals and I

00:27:31
turned them into giving goals and it

00:27:33
changed the motivation. Now, you have to

00:27:37
make money to give money.

00:27:39
But one one of our goals is to reverse

00:27:42
tithe, to live off of 10% and give 90%.

00:27:46
We're not there yet. But man, a lot of

00:27:49
those book contracts, what a joy to go

00:27:52
5050 or even 2080. And we just we play

00:27:57
what we call the giving game. Like I I

00:28:00
just my wife and I, we love to give. and

00:28:05
you know so I think wow that was a long

00:28:08
answer to your question but I just I

00:28:10
feel like there's something there for us

00:28:12
to wrestle with like just to make sure

00:28:16
that we are doing the right things for

00:28:18
the right right reasons. So I I'm going

00:28:20
to trust that uh folks who are listening

00:28:24
there'll be some takeaway there. Well, I

00:28:27
was even thinking and and you went here,

00:28:29
but what are some of the things you

00:28:31
focused on that you realized were the

00:28:32
wrong things, you know, and I love that

00:28:34
shift from uh achieving financial what

00:28:38
might be look like financial success to

00:28:40
generosity. Um what are other things you

00:28:42
see people focusing on that are like

00:28:45
some of those like, man, this is a great

00:28:47
goal and it sounds really good, but

00:28:48
maybe there's a better goal.

00:28:49
Yep. Then let me lean in right here

00:28:52
because this is for someone. This is for

00:28:54
someone. Um, when I when I wrote that

00:28:57
first book, I started getting

00:28:59
invitations. People think you know more

00:29:01
than you know when you write a book. And

00:29:04
every opportunity, Chris, was an amazing

00:29:07
opportunity. I got spread so thin that

00:29:11
my family was getting the leftovers. And

00:29:13
there was a moment that my wife said to

00:29:16
me, and this is embarrassing. It

00:29:18
shouldn't come to this, but this is when

00:29:20
our kids were were smaller. and she

00:29:24
said, "This isn't what I signed up for."

00:29:26
And I'm like, "Oh,

00:29:29
you're right. And it's not what I signed

00:29:31
up for. At the end of the day, I want to

00:29:34
be famous in my home." And you can't be

00:29:36
famous in your home if you're never

00:29:37
home. And so I I started doing hard

00:29:40
work, Chris. Two things. I'm like, I

00:29:43
better define success. And it doesn't

00:29:46
have anything to do with how many people

00:29:48
I pastor or how many books I sell.

00:29:51
Success is when those who know me best

00:29:54
respect me most, and that's my wife and

00:29:56
my kids. And then the second thing I did

00:29:58
was start establishing boundaries. So

00:30:02
eventually, I worked myself all the way

00:30:04
back to I won't do more than seven

00:30:06
overnight speaking trips a year. It's

00:30:08
just a boundary I put in place. And so

00:30:11
that means I'm saying low no to a lot of

00:30:13
opportunities, but saying yes to one

00:30:16
thing is saying no to something else.

00:30:18
And so really what I'm doing is making

00:30:22
predecisions

00:30:24
based on priorities

00:30:26
so that I don't get into situations and

00:30:29
I'm like overextending myself because I

00:30:32
have a hard time saying no and uh and so

00:30:36
there there are some people listening

00:30:37
that right now you need to reorder some

00:30:41
priorities and establish some

00:30:43
boundaries. I mean, there was a time

00:30:45
where I was coaching little league

00:30:48
basketball and gota help with homework

00:30:51
and I'm like, I'll give the church one

00:30:53
night a week, but I I got to give my

00:30:56
family the other nights. And so, what

00:30:58
you have to do is just at different

00:31:00
seasons in life, you've got to put those

00:31:04
boundaries in place um so that that you

00:31:07
don't end up with a lot of regrets.

00:31:09
You'll make some mistakes. It's okay.

00:31:12
But you got to learn from those mistakes

00:31:14
and then put put those boundaries in

00:31:16
place.

00:31:18
Well, I mean it kind of comes full

00:31:20
circle with the self leadership. One of

00:31:21
one of the things that you've talked a

00:31:23
lot about both in your writing and your

00:31:25
speaking, you talk a lot about habits

00:31:27
and the importance of habits, right?

00:31:30
Talk about how you even realize the

00:31:31
importance of habits and just a little

00:31:34
bit there that the audience might find

00:31:35
beneficial based on where you're going

00:31:37
with this.

00:31:38
Yeah. Well, I I played a little bit of

00:31:40
college basketball and it wasn't big

00:31:42
league basketball. It was D3. I want to

00:31:44
keep it real. Uh because the older you

00:31:47
get, the better you were, Chris.

00:31:52
So, um you know, I think what I learned

00:31:55
from that is you need certain

00:31:57
disciplines. You you've got to put you

00:32:00
you got to work on your skills and you

00:32:03
do it with drills. And that that's true

00:32:06
if you're a musician or whatever it was,

00:32:08
you know, academically, athletically.

00:32:11
Um, you know, you get out what you put

00:32:13
in generally speaking. So, what I've

00:32:16
tried to do is just establish certain

00:32:19
habits. And maybe maybe this is

00:32:22
predictable, but you know, one of them

00:32:24
for me would be a Bible reading habit.

00:32:27
Um, you know, I'm asking the question

00:32:29
these days, what percentage of your

00:32:32
thoughts and ideas, actions and

00:32:33
reactions, attitudes and opinions are a

00:32:37
regurgitation of news media and social

00:32:40
media? And what percentage is a

00:32:42
revelation that you're getting from

00:32:44
God's word? I I think if you're

00:32:46
consuming the news more than the good

00:32:48
news, good luck with that. Like, you got

00:32:51
to stay dialed into the story of God.

00:32:55
And for me, like that's a Bible reading

00:32:58
plan. So that's one of those habits that

00:33:01
I think pays dividends. And there are

00:33:04
physical habits, you know, whether it's

00:33:06
exercise or diet. There are uh

00:33:09
intellectual habits of just reading

00:33:12
really good content to keep your mind uh

00:33:16
stimulated. Um and then there there are

00:33:19
relational habits. It might be a date

00:33:21
night if you're married or, you know,

00:33:23
with your kids, you know, h how do you

00:33:26
prioritize that relationship? What are

00:33:28
those habits look like? Is it leveraging

00:33:31
dinner time for question time? You know,

00:33:35
um so there I I I think you have to come

00:33:38
up with your own ideas. Um because a

00:33:41
person convinced against their will is

00:33:43
not of is of the same opinion still like

00:33:46
it's not outside in. But I think you do

00:33:48
have to begin to identify here are

00:33:50
priorities, here are habits that are

00:33:52
going to get me there and uh and then

00:33:55
you go to work.

00:33:58
As you think about where you are today

00:34:01
as a leader, like just personally in

00:34:03
life, what God is putting on your heart,

00:34:05
what's something you're wrestling with

00:34:07
or working through right now that might

00:34:09
be something other people are also

00:34:11
wrestling with and trying to figure out?

00:34:13
because I know you would be the first to

00:34:15
admit from everything you've written and

00:34:16
said like you don't have it all figured

00:34:18
out and you're still wrestling with a

00:34:20
lot of these things.

00:34:21
Yeah. Well, 2 Corinthians 8:2 says, "He

00:34:24
who thinks he knows does not yet know as

00:34:26
he ought to know." So, Chris, the

00:34:28
reality is you and I, we don't know what

00:34:31
we don't know. And the more you know,

00:34:33
the more you know how much you don't

00:34:35
know. And so, I think recognizing like

00:34:38
you're a data point. I'm a data point.

00:34:41
And so really operating I think in a

00:34:43
spirit of humility. I will I will throw

00:34:46
out in that light. I've got a friend,

00:34:48
you know, when you pastor in DC, you get

00:34:50
interesting people who come to church.

00:34:52
And so uh there's a guy, a good friend

00:34:54
of mine, uh Admiral, um who was the

00:34:57
former, uh deputy homeland security

00:35:00
counterterrorism advisor to the

00:35:01
president. And so, you know, he would

00:35:04
spend half of his day in the situation

00:35:06
room trying to manage crisis. That's

00:35:08
what he did for breakfast, lunch, and

00:35:10
dinner. And so I remember during COVID

00:35:13
asking him like, "Help a brother out."

00:35:15
Like, "How do we do this?" Because we

00:35:16
went a year and two weeks by DC

00:35:19
government mandate, not able to gather

00:35:21
as a church. And uh and I I'll never

00:35:25
forget what he said. He said, "Here,

00:35:26
here is my singular leadership mantra."

00:35:30
He said, "I reserve the right to get

00:35:33
smarter

00:35:35
later."

00:35:36
And I think there's something there that

00:35:39
some of us like we want to pretend that

00:35:41
we have it all figured out. I would ask

00:35:44
when was the last time you changed your

00:35:46
mind? like even on a significant issue

00:35:49
like I think some of us we're so

00:35:51
entrenched we're in our echo chambers

00:35:53
we're so binary in our thinking that

00:35:56
there's a great risk these days that man

00:36:00
we just kind of retreat to our corners

00:36:04
and and then where in the world is civil

00:36:07
discourse or human decency or even

00:36:10
agreeing to disagree I I think

00:36:13
leadership

00:36:14
is setting a tone and a posture

00:36:17
And that's what and maybe this is the

00:36:19
moment just to point back to Jesus. Like

00:36:23
what did he do? He washed feet. Like

00:36:26
that's what he did. And so Chris, I feel

00:36:29
like this is a cultural moment where uh

00:36:32
the church unfortunately has let

00:36:34
celebrity culture into the church. And

00:36:36
when you put people on a pedestal, it

00:36:38
never ends well. I think that when you

00:36:41
reach the highest level of leadership in

00:36:43
the kingdom and uh we're talking about

00:36:46
servant leadership, right?

00:36:48
That that what what it gives you is the

00:36:51
right to relinquish your rights and wash

00:36:54
feet just like Jesus. And when you begin

00:36:57
to lead that way, man, I think there's

00:37:01
something that is so

00:37:04
magnetic. It's why you couldn't keep

00:37:06
people away. It's why people went for

00:37:08
days without food just to listen to him

00:37:11
tell stories. It's why people would walk

00:37:14
around the Sea of Galilee and fight

00:37:16
through crowds just to touch the hem of

00:37:18
his garment because

00:37:20
Jesus was holy, but he wasn't holier

00:37:22
than thou. Um there was something about

00:37:25
him that just

00:37:28
um man, may we be more and more like

00:37:32
Jesus. And I think a big part of that is

00:37:34
the servant leadership. Wow, I love

00:37:37
that. Uh, I knew starting this podcast I

00:37:40
could talk to you literally all day

00:37:42
about this stuff. I want to finish with

00:37:44
60 seconds of rapidfire questions.

00:37:46
Okay.

00:37:47
Just say the first thing that comes to

00:37:49
mind and there will be 10 questions. No

00:37:50
wrong answer.

00:37:51
Boom.

00:37:52
Who's the first person you think of when

00:37:54
I say servant leadership?

00:37:57
My grandfather, Elmer Johnson.

00:38:00
Wow. Five words that most describe you.

00:38:04
So,

00:38:07
five words. Um,

00:38:08
five words.

00:38:09
I'm an ideiator.

00:38:12
Um, I'm an activator.

00:38:16
Uh,

00:38:18
I I'd like to think that uh

00:38:23
that I'm a helper. I I love lifting

00:38:26
other people's arms up. Um,

00:38:30
I I think I am an intercessor. I love to

00:38:33
pray. I love to stand in that gap.

00:38:35
Um, and then I' I'd like to think maybe,

00:38:38
just maybe, that I'm trying to give more

00:38:41
than I take, trying to add value. I

00:38:44
think those are five descriptors. And by

00:38:46
the way, some of those do come uh from

00:38:49
the um uh strengthfinder. So, yeah,

00:38:53
positivity might be one more.

00:38:55
Yeah. No, I love that. and and to pause

00:38:58
on the 10 questions, but for those

00:39:00
listening, uh your content on prayer has

00:39:04
absolutely rocked my prayer world and

00:39:06
since 2017, I know it's not your

00:39:08
content, but it happens to be written in

00:39:09
a lot of the stuff you write, a lot of

00:39:11
the stuff you talk about, and I would

00:39:13
encourage anyone who's interested in

00:39:15
that topic to check out your content.

00:39:17
Um, all right. Favorite food?

00:39:19
Mexican.

00:39:21
Oh, that's good. All right. Favorite

00:39:22
thing to do in your free time.

00:39:24
You know what? I bike centuries. I like

00:39:26
hopping on a bike.

00:39:28
Wow. What's a surprising fact about you?

00:39:33
Oh, I'll just pull one out. I'm a an

00:39:37
Olympic gold medalist. Um the Awana

00:39:41
Olympics in the three-legged race when I

00:39:43
was 10 years old.

00:39:46
Favorite place you've been?

00:39:49
You know what? I did the 4-day hike on

00:39:51
the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu. That was

00:39:53
pretty epic. Um although rimto rim Grand

00:39:56
Canyon would be right up there too.

00:39:59
Top place you'd want to go that you have

00:40:01
not been to yet?

00:40:02
Huh? You know

00:40:06
maybe I've been to Rome but I wouldn't

00:40:08
mind hitting Florence, Italy.

00:40:12
All right. Best advice you've ever

00:40:14
received.

00:40:17
You know, and that's man that's a tough

00:40:20
tough one. Um,

00:40:23
but I have all of these life rules. I'm

00:40:26
trying to think of which one. Wow. The

00:40:29
best. Oh, man. Chris, uh, that is a hard

00:40:35
question. I think I would say um,

00:40:40
just long obedience in the same

00:40:42
direction. And it wasn't someone saying

00:40:45
that to me. It was me watching people

00:40:48
who ended their their lives, their

00:40:52
ministries, their leadership with their

00:40:55
integrity intact.

00:40:58
Um, but they fought the good fight. They

00:41:01
ran the good race, had some grit along

00:41:04
the way, and uh, finished strong. So, I

00:41:08
think that's that's what comes to mind.

00:41:11
Favorite book or author?

00:41:13
Uh, I might go with Awtoer. I like the

00:41:16
old-timers uh knowledge of the holy

00:41:18
pursuit of God. Such incredible books.

00:41:22
All right. And finally, this is a

00:41:24
podcast on servant leadership. Why

00:41:27
should people care about becoming better

00:41:29
servant leaders?

00:41:30
Well, I don't think you can become like

00:41:33
Jesus if you don't become a servant

00:41:35
leadership uh a servant leader. So, I

00:41:38
mean, right right there uh I think it's

00:41:41
part and parcel of disciplehip. I I

00:41:44
think disciplehip and leadership are

00:41:46
kind of hard to they're almost like a

00:41:48
double helix DNA. Um and uh at the end

00:41:52
of the day, Chris, can I just share a

00:41:54
little litmus test? I, as you can

00:41:57
imagine, I bumped into a lot of leaders

00:41:59
over the years from a lot of different

00:42:01
arenas. You know what? Number one thing

00:42:04
I'm looking for is just someone who's

00:42:07
down to earth,

00:42:09
uh who checks their ego at the door.

00:42:12
They're not about their agenda or their

00:42:15
brand or anything else. Just really

00:42:18
trying to point people back uh to Jesus.

00:42:22
And so I think I think

00:42:26
yeah, servant leadership is how you how

00:42:29
you steward any kind of responsibility

00:42:32
or opportunity that God God has given to

00:42:35
you.

00:42:36
Wow. This is so good. Uh Mark, I just

00:42:39
want to say thank you for being on the

00:42:41
podcast. Thank you for being an

00:42:42
inspiration to me even on this journey

00:42:45
with the podcast and uh I'm excited for

00:42:47
people to listen to this and have

00:42:49
learned from you. Hey Chris, absolute

00:42:51
joy and uh uh maybe next time I'm in the

00:42:57
Chicago area, we'll get some deep dish

00:43:00
pizza together.

00:43:01
I would I would love that. My treat.

00:43:04
All right, God bless.

00:43:05
Thank you for listening to this episode

00:43:07
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

00:43:10
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

00:43:12
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

00:43:13
below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit

00:43:17
the notification bell to never miss an

00:43:19
update. Be sure to check out the

00:43:21
servantleershipodcast.org

00:43:23
for more updates and additional bonus

00:43:25
content.