Humility of Billy Graham

0:00
The humility piece is now this. We're

0:02
sitting there and after about a minute,

0:05
Mr. Graham said, "You know, I've never

0:07
understood why would anyone want my

0:09
autograph."

0:11
And I I laughed. This is Billy Graham.

0:14
You know what? And but then I realized

0:16
he was serious. So I had to explain what

0:20
an autograph is to Mr. Graham.

Larry Ross Introduction

0:29
Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

0:31
we welcome Larry Ross.

0:33
For nearly 35 years, Larry served as the

0:36
personal media spokesperson for Billy

0:38
Graham, representing him through more

0:39
than 70 crusades, more than half of

0:42
Graham's public ministry.

0:44
Over three decades, Larry has also

0:46
represented Rick Warren, Bishop TD Jake,

0:49
and served as communications director

0:51
for Dr. Ben Carson's 2016 presidential

0:54
campaign.

Behind the Scenes with Graham

0:56
Larry has been part of some of the

0:57
biggest movements in history while

0:59
spending his career holding up the arms

0:01
of the leaders he represents rather than

0:03
seeking the spotlight himself.

0:06
Join us as Larry shares what it was like

0:08
to sit behind the scenes with Billy

0:09
Graham for three and a half decades,

0:11
what he learned about servant leadership

0:13
from mentors like Billy Graham and Doug

0:15
Co, and the difference between knowing

0:17
Jesus and doing Jesus. Also, before we

0:20
dive in, make sure to give this episode

0:22
a like and subscribe or follow the show

0:25
so you don't miss the next conversation.

Welcome Larry Ross

0:28
Larry, welcome to the Servant Leadership

0:30
Podcast. Thank you for being here.

0:33
Hi, Chris. It's great to have to be here

0:35
with you and I appreciate the

0:36
invitation.

Legendary Marketing and PR

0:37
This is so amazing to have you. Uh, your

0:40
name is legendary in the marketing and

0:42
PR industry. Uh, I first heard about you

0:45
because of stuff you had done with Billy

0:46
Graham way back in the day. Uh, I know

0:49
you've done a lot more than that, but I

0:51
was reading a case study and your name

0:52
popped up and I was like, "Wow, this is

0:54
really cool." How did you first hear

0:57
about Billy Graham and what was the

0:59
journey like to then working with him

0:02
later? Like, how did that even happen?

Not a Christian PR Man

0:04
Well, first of all, um, I I want to say

0:08
at the outset, I am not a Christian PR

0:11
man, Christian PR practitioner. I'm a

0:14
communications professional who whose

0:17
faith informs my work. And so my father

0:21
was a Greek scholar, worked on the

0:23
faculty of graduate school of Wheaten

0:25
College. And he used to preach on the

0:27
great commission. Go into all the world

0:29
and preach the gospel. And but the verb

0:32
tense in the original language is while

0:34
going. Everybody's going somewhere. If

0:36
you're a doctor, you're going to the

0:37
hospital. If you're a PR guy, you're

0:39
going into the marketplace. While going,

0:41
preach the gospel. So my mantra has been

0:45
uh suit up and show up, let God do the

0:48
rest. But in recent years, I've added a

0:50
fourth and that's lift up the name of

0:52
Jesus wherever possible.

Early Encounters with Graham

0:54
So I started out uh I was the poster

0:57
child for evangelicalism. I grew up in

1:00
Wheaten, Illinois. Um the house that I

1:03
was raised in, my childhood home, had to

1:05
be moved in order to build the Billy

1:06
Graham Center on the campus of Wheaten

1:08
College, an alma mater that we share.

1:11
And I had no idea that our lives would

1:13
be so intertwined with the opportunity,

1:15
the blessing to have for nearly 35 years

1:18
to be his personal media spokesperson

1:20
and have a front row seat on all that

1:22
God did through his unique ministry

1:25
around the world. More than 70 crusades,

1:27
more than half of his public ministry.

1:30
My first encounter with Mr. Graham was

1:33
when I was nine years old, and it wasn't

1:35
a good one. It was a brutally hot 107

1:39
degrees. I googled it um at Soldier

1:42
Field downtown Chicago with the last

1:44
Sunday afternoon meeting of his Chicago

1:47
Metro Chicago crusade. I was 9 years

1:50
old. I didn't know anything about this

1:52
guy. All I know is how hot and thirsty I

1:54
was in the second to last row in the

1:56
corner of the stadium. He was a dot on

1:58
the stage. I was miserable and I I was

2:01
just so thirsty. And uh and yet um I my

2:06
first opportunity to interact with him

2:07
personally, I worked right out of

2:09
college for a uh convention company and

2:12
we were working the uh holiday and

2:15
franchise holders convention in Memphis,

2:17
Tennessee. And I worked pretty hard and

2:19
the guy said, "Hey, you've done a great

2:20
job. I'll introduce you to any of the

2:24
stars we've had here for five days

2:27
convention with 5,000 hotel owners, you

2:30
know, actors, singers, all I I said,

2:32
"Well, I'd like to meet Billy Graham."

2:34
He said, "Oh, that's easy. He's across

2:36
the hall right now. He just finished a

2:37
prayer breakfast uh that he spoke at and

2:41
they're taking a photo with the

2:42
directors." So, he barges across the

2:45
hall and Mr. Graham is sitting and like

2:48
30 of the directors of the Holiday.

2:51
the Jewish man with a lot of hutzbah and

2:53
he said, "Excuse me. Excuse me, Mr.

2:54
Graham. There's a young man here who

2:56
wants to meet you. He went to your alma

2:58
mater." And so they hadn't even taken a

3:00
picture yet. Mr. Graham stands up. I was

3:02
just I wanted to crawl into a hole. He

3:04
comes across, shakes my hand, so lovely,

3:07
good to meet you, young man. What did

3:08
you major in? And chatted for about two

3:11
minutes. And then he turns to the board

3:13
and explains for five minutes. This

3:16
young man and I share a heritage of

3:18
based on the Bible that this school

3:20
trains preachers and he preached the

3:22
gospel to the board. It was

3:23
unbelievable. And I realized Mr. Graham

3:26
used me as a prop to basically

3:29
sensitively share the gospel message in

3:32
a in a seamless way. I saw him do it

3:34
time and again. And so that was my first

3:37
introduction to him. Um and then like I

3:40
said privileged to work with him more

3:41
than half my career. How did he go from

3:43
meeting him at that point to then

3:44
working with him?

Joining Graham's Team

3:47
Well, it it's a long story, probably too

3:49
long to tell here now, but um I had an

3:52
opportunity to go to work for was

3:54
invited to add a PR dimension um to the

3:57
work that the agency of record uh Walter

4:00
Bennett Communications did for Mr.

4:02
Graham um in television production and

4:05
advertising. I'd come out of a secular

4:07
career with the General Motors

4:08
Corporation,

4:10
uh, an experience you and your my dad

4:13
and you share. Uh, and I was working out

4:16
of the uh, based out of Detroit,

4:18
traveling nationally, representing them.

4:20
Then I went to work for uh, the eighth

4:23
largest PR firm in the country, Kramer

4:25
Dixon, Bassford in New York City, where

4:27
among other things, I handled the PR

4:29
positioning for Joe Deaggio as the

4:31
spokesperson for the Bowie Savings Bank.

4:34
And in 1981, I went from representing a

4:37
sports icon to a faith icon. And they

4:39
asked me to come and uh represent Mr.

4:42
Graham in the media. And um so I was

4:45
able to I see my role I was never called

4:48
to preach, Chris, but I believe what we

4:50
do is every bit as much ministry because

4:53
we're extending the influence of the

4:56
principle and the impact of the

4:58
organization to and through the media.

5:00
You know the story in the B Bible, the

5:02
Old Testament, where the children of

5:04
Israel, the army is losing against the

5:06
Amalocites, I think it is, and Aaron and

5:09
her are holding up Moses' arms. And as

5:11
long as his arms are being held up,

5:13
they're winning. And when he drops, they

5:14
they fall back. That's our job is we

5:17
hold up the arms of the men and women of

5:19
God like Billy Graham. And um we've done

5:22
this now what we've done for Mr. program

5:25
with Rick Warren, Bishop TD Jake Jakes,

5:27
a number of other Christian leaders, and

5:30
even um in 2016 was privileged to

5:34
represent the U or serve as

5:36
communications director for Dr. Ben

5:38
Carson on his presidential campaign. So,

5:40
it's really extended more to men and

5:43
women um for God and the common good.

5:46
And um messaging Dr. Carson was no

5:48
different than Rick Warren or Billy

5:50
Graham because uh Dr. Graham, I believe,

5:53
not to take anything away from his

5:54
preaching, but I believe that one of the

5:57
distinctives of his ministry was his

6:00
ability to make positive points for the

6:02
gospel in any media situation.

6:04
You could ask him how he gets his suits

6:06
dry cleananed down the road and he would

6:08
turn it into a gospel witness.

Graham's Media Approach

6:10
And I think it's because of three

6:11
things. First, he always approached

6:14
media as ministry, not marketing. Once

6:17
he told me, I approached him at Time or

6:19
Newsweek, wanted to do a cover story and

6:21
interview him. And he said, you know,

6:24
I've had more cover stories than anybody

6:26
deserves in a lifetime, but if it's

6:29
provides a platform for me to get the

6:31
message out, then then I'll consider it.

6:33
And God honored his faithfulness.

6:35
Actually, the other thing is when I was

6:37
in New York, when you do a sound check

6:39
for a network interview, the the

6:42
standard thing to say is count to 10 or

6:44
say what you had for breakfast. Billy

6:46
would always quote John 3:16. And I

6:49
asked him one time, "Mr. Graham, why do

6:51
you do that?" He said, "Well, every time

6:53
I go on the on television, I try to get

6:56
the gospel in, but if for some reason

6:58
I'm not able to do it, at least I know

7:00
the cameraman heard it." And uh the

7:02
second reason I think the media was so

7:05
powerful is while many other ministries

7:07
became activist in nature, Mr. Graham

7:10
always remained an advocate for the

7:12
Christian faith,

7:13
showing how the Bible speaks to personal

7:15
and societal problems. And then thirdly,

7:18
um he never became political. He was

7:21
always uh pastoral in his approach to

7:24
media and u and always u you know really

7:28
taking an interest in the person that um

7:31
was on the other side of the microphone.

7:33
Not overlooking their beyond all the

7:36
reaching their audience. Sure. but

7:38
always taking care and time to really

7:40
focus in on that person. You know,

7:42
friend of mine at the fellowship, I'm

7:44
very involved in the National Prayer

7:45
Breakfast, once told me that Jesus

7:48
emphasized relational integrity over

7:51
intellectual accuracy. Of course,

7:53
doctrine is important, but having that

7:56
intellectual or relational integrity and

7:59
being present in the moment, and that's

8:01
something Mr. Graham was very good at.

8:03
He he made every person that he was with

8:07
feel like they were the most important

8:09
person in the world, not not like they

8:11
were talking to one of the most

8:12
important people in the world. And

8:13
that's a gift. And uh like I said, it's

8:16
really um there was Billy Graham. There

8:18
were no there were not two Billy

8:19
Grahams. He was the same person in

8:22
person over dinner at the hotel than the

8:24
person you'd hear preach in a stadium.

Leadership Lessons Learned

8:26
Wow. Well, I mean, working with people

8:29
like Billy Graham, like Rick Warren, DD

8:31
Jake Jakes, Ben Carson, so many others,

8:33
too. Uh, you probably went into this

8:36
industry with a certain view of what

8:37
leadership looked like. And then after

8:40
all these years, you I'm guessing your

8:42
view of leadership has evolved a little

8:45
bit. One of the things that we talk

8:46
about a lot in that people tell us on

8:49
the podcast as we as we interview them

8:51
is that uh leaders have influence. So,

8:55
anyone that has influence is a leader.

8:57
And some of the things you did were so

8:59
influential around the whole world. What

9:01
did you learn about leadership along the

9:03
journey that maybe you didn't realize

9:05
from the get-go?

Servant Leadership Insights

9:08
Well, you know, um, Bishop Kenneth Mer,

9:11
who was our one of our co-chairs at the

9:12
LA Crusade in 2003,

9:15
he u I heard him speak one time and he

9:17
said he was speaking on servant

9:19
leadership and he said, "Actually,

9:22
I'm not a leader. I'm a follower. It's

9:25
follow me as I follow Jesus.

9:28
And um one of my mentors in addition to

9:31
Mr. Graham is a gentleman named Doug Co

9:33
who was very involved in the National

9:35
Prayer Breakfast for for many years. And

9:38
um he u uh encouraged a friend of mine

9:42
who was leading a Bible study every week

9:44
for 30 men. He said, "Have you ever

9:46
asked anybody to follow you?" And he

9:48
said, "No." He said, "I would encourage

9:50
you the next session say, I want to

9:53
raise of hands. How many will follow

9:54
me?" Well, that sounds preposterous, but

9:57
he did it. And 18 guys of the 30 raised

10:00
their hand. He thought, "Oh my goodness,

10:02
now what do I do?" So, every week he had

10:04
just in time, he had to study and come

10:06
up with something, you know, follow me

10:07
as I follow Jesus. So I think the idea

10:10
of servant leadership um is not just

10:13
that um that you know we're have people

10:15
follow us but we we we have to follow

10:17
Jesus set the example. In fact the thing

10:20
that I've learned from people like Dr.

10:22
Graham and others is this concept of

10:24
intr intrinsic leadership. You can't

10:27
lead others unless you're really leading

10:29
yourself. There has to be a consistency

10:32
between who you are as a person and how

10:35
you lead the character. It has to be

10:37
it's leadership with character. The

10:39
other thing is that I think is study the

10:41
the life of Jesus

10:44
the um it's interesting how Jesus um

10:48
taught he taught by asking questions.

10:51
Rick Warren shared this principle with

10:54
me. He avoided Twitter for years. He

10:56
thought well that's that's kind of

10:58
silly. You know, remember the prompt

11:00
when you first started with Twitter uh

11:03
and some of the social media platforms

11:05
was, "What are you doing right now?"

11:07
Rick said, "Nobody cares what I had for

11:09
lunch or whatever."

11:10
But then he started thinking, "Wait a

11:12
minute. If I can say what I'm thinking,

11:14
what are you thinking right now?"

11:16
Well, that'll that's that's terrific.

11:19
And so that's what he started to do. So

11:21
this idea of servant thinkmanship

11:24
helping people you know to really

11:26
challenge people in their thinking and

11:28
part of that is by asking questions just

11:30
as Jesus said who do people say that I

11:32
am who do you say that I am that kind of

11:34
a thing and engaging in dialogue that

11:37
really brings brings people out in the

11:39
in the conversation.

Mentorship from Doug Co

11:40
Yeah. Well Billy Graham is obviously a

11:43
name that everyone's heard of. Doug Co

11:45
is maybe a name that depending on the

11:46
circles people haven't heard of, but he

11:48
was

11:50
he's in the same realm of influence as

11:52
Billy Graham, just without crusades,

11:54
just behind the scenes work. Uh, I'm

11:57
super familiar with him. As they were

11:59
mentoring you, what were the questions

12:02
you were asking them that you found

12:03
valuable to help you develop who God was

12:06
calling you to be?

Questions from Mentors

12:08
Well, actually, it was really questions

12:10
they were asking me. So, I was

12:12
privileged to hear Dr. hundreds of Billy

12:15
Graham sermons on the cross and all, but

12:17
when I met Dave Co, he rocked my world.

12:20
Uh we sat down and he asked me, "What is

12:23
the gospel?"

12:25
And I gave him the standard line of, you

12:27
know, the substitutionary willing

12:29
sacrifice of the Lord on our behalf and

12:31
if we accept that by faith and put our

12:34
trust in him, we'll live eternally in

12:36
heaven. He said, "No, that's what Jesus

12:38
did." I'm saying the gospel isn't what

12:41
Jesus did. The gospel is a person. The

12:43
gospel is Jesus. Jesus is the gospel.

12:45
Never heard that before. It it changed

12:47
my life. So for 35 years, well at that

12:52
point it was 27 years. I had been

12:54
involved in global evangelism with Billy

12:57
Graham. Uh crusades all over the world.

13:00
Then I met Jesus.

13:02
I thought I knew Jesus. I gave my heart

13:03
to Jesus when I was a little boy at

13:05
five. But I was doing Jesus

13:09
and I was a professional a Christian.

13:12
The gospel was a commodity. I was raised

13:15
my religion can beat up your religion.

13:17
You know, it was a the gospel was a

13:19
doctrine to be memorized or a debate to

13:21
be won. And I realized that take this

13:24
concept that the gospel is a person,

13:27
this intellect or this relational

13:28
integrity we were talking about. That's

13:30
a game changer for me. And so I can't

13:33
tell you how many people of other faiths

13:35
I've witnessed to on the way to the

13:37
airport in a cab on the way to the

13:39
airport. And now I just find a person

13:41
say with a Muslim background and say,

13:42
"Well, you're, you know, you're a

13:45
Muslim. I'm a follower of Jesus. He's in

13:47
both of our books. Let's talk about

13:49
Jesus." And you can't get them to shut

13:52
up. They talk about Jesus all the way to

13:53
the airport. Now, there they see him

13:55
differently than we do, but that's okay.

13:57
We start a conversation. And uh it's

14:00
been very interesting uh along the way.

Identity and Performance

14:02
So, I think that um

14:05
Jesus didn't say try harder. He said,

14:09
"Think differently." And I think that um

14:12
I was reading Oswald Chambers recently

14:14
and he had a he had an entry that talked

14:17
about

14:18
as believers, it's less about

14:21
understanding more truth than embracing

14:24
more of Christ's love

14:26
and love that can empower us to love

14:29
others. Oswald Chambers, I just wrote it

14:31
down here. I'm just going to read it. He

14:32
said, "Worldliness is not the trap that

14:35
most endangers us as Christian workers,

14:38
nor is it sin. Rather, it's

14:40
extravagantly desiring spiritual success

14:43
measured by and patterned after the form

14:46
set by this religious age in which we

14:48
now live." And Jesus in uh Luke 10:20

14:52
told the disciples not to rejoice in

14:54
successful service. And yet that seems

14:56
to be the one thing that most of us do

14:59
rejoice in. We have a commercialized

15:01
view counting how many souls have been

15:03
saved and sanctified or we think okay

15:06
well everything's all right however many

15:08
people came to Christ in my ministry

15:10
this week but our work only begins where

15:13
God's grace has laid the foundation and

15:16
not to save souls but to disciple them

15:18
and uh Oswald Chambers concluded in this

15:21
devotional that one life totally devoted

15:24
to God is more of more value to him than

15:26
a hundred lives that have simply been

15:28
awakened by his spirit spirit. That's

15:30
pretty powerful.

Performance-Based Identity

15:31
So I um for much of my career

15:34
I was uh I I grew up in a

15:37
performancebased home. I was loved not

15:40
for who I was for what I did. And so my

15:43
personal identity

15:45
uh was based on it was performance-based

15:49
and um uh one of the hardest things for

15:52
me to do was to let God love me. And uh

15:55
so I put been working on a golf

15:57
ministry, international golf ministry,

15:59
and a fellow named Jim Barker who has

16:02
taken over one of the teaching pastors

16:04
at Max Max Luc's church in uh San

16:07
Antonio

16:09
kind of has mentored me a little bit on

16:11
this. And he said that related to

16:14
identity from a spiritual standpoint,

16:18
the the options are binary. People

16:21
pursue identity in one of two ways.

16:23
either performance-based identity, which

16:25
is where I was, determined by what

16:28
others think of me based on what I do.

16:30
And I hope God realized how lucky he was

16:33
to have me on his team because I was the

16:34
hardest working guy in ministry. Okay,

16:37
which is ridiculous. Um, or identity

16:40
based performance, which is what I'm

16:41
learning to become, determined by my

16:44
character and an audience of one based

16:46
on what God thinks of me as I live in

16:49
the strength of the Lord. And uh there's

16:52
a gentleman named Rick Hill. I read his

16:54
one of his books recently and he notes

16:56
that our identity in Christ comes before

16:59
our ability in Christ

17:01
and that our activity for him should

17:03
flow out of our intimacy in him. You

17:05
can't be too busy serving God in order

17:08
to love God or love others. It's just

17:10
just it's inongruous.

Identity and Humility

17:12
Um former Senate Chaplain Dick

17:15
Halbertson, I don't know if you've heard

17:16
that name. He was um he's he's passed

17:19
away now, but he uh he put it this way.

17:23
You've got to treat yourself as a zero.

17:25
If you stretch out many zeros in a row,

17:28
you still have zero. But if you put a

17:30
one in front of it, there's no limit to

17:32
what you can have. 1 million, 1 billion,

17:35
one trillion. And Dr. Calverson said

17:38
Jesus Christ is the one. He can multiply

17:41
your power and efficiencies many times.

17:45
He can give us meaning to the zero of

17:48
our lives.

17:49
Because what I've learned is Jesus

17:50
imparts the freedom to liberate people

17:52
from the burden of religion and also to

17:55
demonstrate a faith a great faith in his

17:58
love. And he empowers empowers us to

18:00
love ourselves and then thereby to be

18:02
able to uh to love others. My former

18:05
pastor put it this way.

Faith and Love

18:08
Jesus calls us to live by faith

18:11
expressing love powered by the spirit in

18:14
us. And he he he kind of basically

18:19
summarized that saying, "Trust Jesus and

18:21
let love happen."

18:23
That's pretty powerful for a guy who's

18:25
been busy serving Jesus through all this

18:27
ministry activity. Trust Jesus and let

18:30
let love happen.

18:31
So I would just say to people watching

18:34
this podcast, what about you? What

18:36
happened to what happened to you? Are

18:38
you are you do you know Jesus or are you

18:41
doing Jesus? Because it's so easy to get

18:44
the two confused. And uh this

18:47
conversation we're having about

18:48
leadership, you can't really lead others

18:50
until you really have an authentic faith

18:52
and trust in the Lord and um and are

18:56
able to uh live out um let his through

18:00
his strength let his love live out

18:02
through you.

Humility in Success

18:03
That's so good. It's interesting because

18:06
you've had the privilege of being

18:08
alongside some of the coolest movements

18:11
that have ever happened like in the last

18:13
century like some major major things.

18:16
Some of the people that have had this

18:19
wild success that you've been supporting

18:21
along the side uh they seem to stay

18:24
humble somehow.

18:27
I know a lot of that is Jesus, but what

18:29
have you learned about humility and the

18:31
importance of humility in this process

18:33
working with some of these mega

18:36
successful campaigns and people?

Describing Billy Graham

18:38
Yeah. Well, let me let me actually

18:42
broaden that to people have asked me if

18:46
I had one word to describe Billy Graham,

18:48
what would it be? I have to use four. It

18:50
would be humility, integrity,

18:53
authenticity, and love.

18:55
And as it relates to humility, I'll I'll

18:57
tell you a story. Um it was uh 1997, I

19:02
believe,

19:04
uh yeah, 1997. I was getting ready to I

19:08
was at the um Christian Book Sellers

19:10
Association uh in Orlando, their annual

19:14
meeting, and my wife had driven our

19:17
young children there to meet me. We were

19:19
going to go together to her parents in

19:21
Florida. Her dad was a pastor in Miami

19:23
area. I woke up on Saturday morning

19:25
after the convention, turned on the TV,

19:27
and there was news about JFK Jr. and his

19:29
wife going down in an airplane. I don't

19:31
if you remember that they crashed their

19:33
private plane and and died tragically.

19:36
And I said to my wife, I said to my

19:38
wife, you know, I'm going to take you to

19:39
your folks, but I've got to meet Dr.

19:41
Graham Monday morning and probably get

19:42
calls from all three morning shows. And

19:44
sure enough, we did. So we're in

19:48
Jacksonville where he had been at the

19:49
Mayo Clinic at this affiliate TV station

19:53
and he and I are in the conference room

19:55
which they use as a green room waiting

19:57
to go on with Katie Kurrick for the

19:59
Today Show and this precious young

20:03
African-American floor manager came in

20:05
with a dogeared copy of Just as I am his

20:08
memoirs that had just come out and she

20:10
said, "Could I get him to sign it? He's

20:13
my spiritual father. I came forward at

20:15
his crusade, one of his crusades. I

20:18
couldn't say no, even though it was my

20:19
job to say no. But she was just I she

20:21
just sweet spirit. I said, "I'm sure if

20:24
if you ask him directly, he'll oblige."

20:26
And I got busy. He had Parkinson. It was

20:28
hard for him to write, but I just

20:30
couldn't say no to this young lady. So,

20:32
he signed his name. And then she did

20:35
something I have never seen anybody do

20:37
in before or since. She said, "Mr.

20:40
Graham, can I pray for you?" I've seen

20:42
hundreds of people say, "Will you pray

20:44
for me?" But no one said, "Can I pray

20:46
for you?" And it kind of threw him. I I

20:49
I realized it took him by surprise, too.

20:51
She put her hand on his shoulder, prayed

20:53
up a storm. I mean, that woman know how

20:55
to pray. Then she had to leave and go

20:57
back and do her job. And so, the

20:59
humility piece is now this. We're

21:01
sitting there and after about a minute,

21:04
Mr. Graham said, "You know, I've never

21:06
understood why would anyone want my

21:08
autograph?"

21:10
And I I laughed. This is Billy Graham.

21:13
You know what? And but then I realized

21:15
he was serious. So I had to explain what

21:19
an autograph is to Mr. Graham. I said,

21:22
"Mr. Graham, this young woman sees you

21:24
as her spiritual father. Came forward

21:26
with your crusade. Read your book. It

21:28
blessed her. She was honored to meet

21:30
you. Wanted to codify the moment. You

21:32
know, whatever."

21:34
So we sat there for another minute. And

21:35
then he said, "You know, I've only asked

21:38
one other person in my whole life for an

21:40
autograph."

21:42
Now, I was flummixed. I sat there

21:44
thinking, man, who would that be? I Who

21:46
do you think it would be, Chris?

21:48
Well, I I know who it was because I've

21:50
I've heard this, but it's it's an

21:52
amazing story. Keep going.

21:54
Well, I I'll tell you the two I thought

21:56
I thought it was either Babe Ruth

21:57
because I knew that his dad had taken

21:59
him to spring training when he was 12.

22:01
He was a baseball fan as a kid, and he

22:03
had met the babe, but it wasn't that.

22:05
And then secondly, I thought it was

22:06
Winston Churchill

22:08
because um after he had sold out Wembley

22:11
twice on his way to the airport in 1954,

22:16
um the prime minister summoned

Prime Minister Encounter

25:19
him to

00:25:19
number 10 Downing. And you won't be able

00:25:21
to wipe this picture out of your hard

00:25:22
drive, Chris, but he goes in at 10:00 in

00:25:25
the morning and the prime minister is in

00:25:27
his bed with a whiskey on the nightstand

00:25:30
smoking a cigar, all of the day's

00:25:32
papers. He's in a his boxers and a wife

00:25:35
Peter t-shirt and he asked Billy Graham,

00:25:38
"How did you do it? How did you sell

00:25:40
Wembley? If I brought Marilyn Monroe

00:25:42
over, do you think we could sell out

00:25:44
Wembley?" And Mr. Graham said, "Mr.

00:25:46
Prime Minister, it's it's not me. It's

00:25:48
the Holy Spirit. You want to share the

00:25:49
gospel with the prime minister?" Anyway,

00:25:51
wasn't him either. So, finally, I said,

00:25:53
"Mr. Graham, I got to know who who's the

00:25:56
one person you've asked for an

00:25:57
autograph." And he said, "John Glenn. Is

00:26:01
that who you'd heard?

John Glenn Autograph

26:02
Yep. Yep.

00:26:03
Yeah. And um I I said John Glenn, you

00:26:06
know, the astronaut for the younger

00:26:08
viewers and senator from Ohio. You said

00:26:11
we were at the Time 100 dinner honoring

00:26:14
all living cover subjects, 2,000 people

00:26:17
at their 100th anniversary at Radio Hit

00:26:19
City Music Hall. And after the dinner

00:26:22
was over, he turned to me and said,

00:26:24,
"Hey, Billy, can I get your autograph?"

00:26:25
And he said, "I've never asked anybody

00:26:27
else for an autograph in my life. Can I

00:26:29
get yours?"

Graham's Humility

26:30
a swapped autograph. The point is Mr.

00:26:34
Graham

00:26:36
was overwhelmed why anybody would want

00:26:38
his autograph. He just considered

00:26:40
himself a country boy called to preach.

00:26:43
And I think as I said that humility uh

00:26:47
led to the integrity and the character

00:26:49
that enabled God to use him in such a

00:26:52
powerful way, the likes of which I don't

00:26:53
think we'll see in our lifetime. M being

Crisis Management in PR

26:56
in PR for so long, you didn't only have

00:27:00
major successes that you got to be

00:27:02
alongside of and helping grow the

00:27:04
purpose- driven life and do all these

00:27:05
really fun things. Some of them uh some

00:27:08
of the things you dealt with was crisis,

00:27:10
scandal, trying to figure out how to

00:27:12
deal with bad PR that people were

00:27:14
giving. How' you how did you deal with

00:27:17
that? And how do you navigate that?

Handling Crisis Situations

27:19
thinking through like for people

00:27:20
listening uh it's not all roses in PR

00:27:25
that's for sure

27:26
it's not well as you mentioned we in

00:27:29
addition to representing people like Mr.

00:27:31
Graham and Rick Warren and others, we've

00:27:34
gotten involved uh with a lot of crisis

00:27:36
PR and um sadly you've seen all the

00:27:40
headlines um the uh whether it's uh

00:27:44
moral failure in the church or what have

00:27:46
you. Uh or issues where right now, for

00:27:50
example, we're working with a lot of

00:27:51
Christian colleges and universities. the

00:27:54
tough time uh for Christian higher

00:27:56
education, but they're not the home team

00:27:58
anymore like they were when I was in

00:27:59
school because we're u uh the prevailing

00:28:03
winds of culture are really um putting a

00:28:06
lot of pressure on them. And it's the

00:28:07
ones that are standing strong and

00:28:09
rewriting their core documents in the

00:28:11
cont in the context of mission,

00:28:13
redefining everything they do in terms

00:28:14
of the mission that provides them

00:28:16
protection under the law.

Questions During Crisis

28:18
And um when there's a crisis, the three

00:28:20
questions people ask is what did you do?

00:28:22
So, what did you know? What did you know

00:28:24
about it? Excuse me. What did you know?

00:28:27
When did you know it? And what did you

00:28:28
do about it? And it's acting swiftly

00:28:31
with authenticity and and truth. PR

00:28:34
can't make black white, but it can

00:28:36
emphasize the brightest shade of gray.

Projecting Identity

28:39
And so, we've been privileged to help um

00:28:42
um we don't try to manufacture an

00:28:45
identity, excuse me, an image. We

00:28:47
project an identity that already exists.

00:28:49
And you know the Chinese I'm I don't

00:28:51
speak Chinese but I know enough to know

00:28:52
that the Chinese word for crisis is made

00:28:56
up of two symbols danger and

00:28:58
opportunity. Every crisis is fraught

00:29:01
with with peril obviously but it also

00:29:03
provides an opportunity to self-identify

29:06
self-define rather than to be poratively

00:29:09
defined by others who maybe have an

00:29:11
agenda. I think it's important um Chris

What Matters Most

29:15
to to recognize um I just I pulled this

00:29:18
I thought it might come up and this

00:29:20
might be a good time to to to say it. Um

29:24
one of my favorite writers was a

29:26
gentleman named Roger Rosenlat with

29:28
time. He's long since passed away but he

29:30
did a back page essay in time years ago

29:33
that really uh resonated with me as a

29:36
communications person and the headline

29:38
was what should we lead with? And he I'm

29:42
going to read you two paragraphs from

29:43
it. He said, "Journalists put the

29:44
question in practical terms. What should

29:47
we lead with? The rest of the population

29:49
asks more generally, what matters most?

29:52
What they come to the same puzzle,

29:54
survey events in a given period of time,

29:57
try to come up with the single moment,

29:59
the headline by which the world may be

30:01
characterized, stopped in its spin. What

30:04
should we lead with? What matters most?

30:06
What we confront in making such choices

30:09
is not the events alone but ourselves

30:11
and it is ourselves we are not able to

30:14
place in order. The question is not what

30:16
the press decrees is this week's news.

30:19
The question is us. What should we lead

30:22
with? What matters most? And what

30:25
matters most for me that was a difficult

30:27
question. It's a lifelong struggle. Um

30:30
like I said the performance orientation

30:32
early in my career I was striving for s

30:35
significant measure significance

30:37
measured by the people I work with

30:38
events I was overseeing but um that uh I

30:43
had to shift my focus and really uh

30:46
re-evaluate my my priorities and uh I've

30:50
learned a lot from these mentors that

30:52
you and I have talked about here

30:54
getting in perspective and it's it's

30:56
made a big difference and now we just um

30:58
turned over our leadership, next

31:00
generation leadership of our firm to our

31:02
son Richard comes out of a secular

31:04
background. God's got his his heart and

31:06
wants to advance the kingdom and he he

31:08
has really uh got a great perspective on

31:11
this and as he is now navigating a lot

31:14
of the electronic digital things, the

31:15
way the communications business is

31:17
changing, it's now fun to just walk

31:19
alongside him and uh and see uh some of

31:22
these transferable principles that we've

31:24
used that I've learned from uh some of

31:27
these great leaders. um now being

31:29
implemented in a different way in this

31:30
new communications paradigm.

Realizing Success

31:32
Yeah, that's so cool. I I'm curious

31:36
obviously

31:38
like people like me and people who know

31:40
you and your background know you from

31:42
some of the really successful things.

31:45
Did you realize that they were going to

31:47
be big successes when you first took

31:49
people on as clients or when you first

31:51
started doing things? I know like Billy

31:53
Graham you jumped in as he was starting

31:55
to do things but Rick Warren had a

31:58
church but purpose-driven life wasn't a

32:00
big thing at that point like it was just

32:01
going to come out like when did you

32:03
realize hey this is going to click or

32:05
did you just faithfully do

32:07
communications and hope for the best?

Faithful Beginnings

32:10
Well I just think it really as I

32:11
mentioned suit up and show up let God do

32:13
the rest and and being faithful in the

32:15
small things. Yes we we Mr. Graham. They

32:19
weren't doing PR at the time, but his,

32:21
you know, I I I jokingly say

32:25
when I first started work with Mr.

32:26
Graham, you know, he was William F.

32:28
Graham, and I said, "Hey, why don't you

32:29
go by Billy? I think it'll be make you a

32:31
lot more." And that's not true. He was

32:33
Billy Graham. But um I it was um like I

32:38
say, it was it was a privilege to be

32:39
able to help um u

32:44
extend his ministry. I I'll give you a

32:46
quick quick example from Mr. Graham

32:49
um when when he did a crusade in at the

32:53
Meadowlands in New Jersey 19 1991 I

32:57
think it was I called the Bergen record

33:00
it's now called the record uh the paper

33:02
record right there in New Jersey and I

33:04
told him that Mr. program had announced

33:06
the first day that

33:08
um on Thursday he was going to preach on

33:11
loneliness the most off requested topic

33:13
for him to speak on you know cosmic

33:15
loneliness in a city of 20 million

33:17
people so I called I told the religion

33:19
writer I said why don't you come and do

33:21
a story on that on his sermon because

33:24
that's something that will resonate with

33:25
a lot of people even outside the church

33:27
and he did and sure enough Friday

33:29
morning huh front page article huge

33:33
chunks from Mr. Graham's sermon quoted

33:35
in the paper and a young man who had

33:37
never been to church a day in his life

33:40
read that and said that's me. I'm

33:42
lonely. And so he got this pre-

33:45
internet. He got the phone book, open up

33:48
the yellow pages and found the closest

33:49
church to his house and called and asked

33:52
to speak to the pastor who happened to

33:54
be a counseling supervisor at the

33:56
crusade. They chatted on the phone for

33:59
an hour and he led that young man to the

34:01
Lord over the phone. Now think about it,

34:03
Chris. That young man never would have

34:05
gone to the Billy Graham crusade at the

34:07
Metallands. It's where the Giants or the

34:08
Jets play. Huge stadium, okay? But he

34:10
didn't care. It wasn't it wasn't his

34:12
jam.

Impact of Media

34:13
But that newspaper became the Billy

34:15
Graham crusade for him.

34:17
Wow.

34:17
And as a result, he made a commitment.

34:19
And so that's what I say. We work at the

34:21
intersection of faith and culture. never

34:23
called to preach, but we help hold up

34:26
the arms of men and women of God like

34:28
Billy Graham and um um and extend their

34:32
influence and the impact of their

34:33
ministry. And you know, my wife was once

34:36
asked, "Who how do you determine who you

34:39
who do you represent basically?" And she

34:42
said, "Anybody we were going to be in

34:45
heaven with one day?" I thought about

34:47
that. It's odd answer, but I thought,

34:48
"No, no, that's brilliant." And in fact,

34:51
I don't know if you remember the store

34:53
BaskinRoberts. What is it? 28 or 31

34:56
flavors.

34:56
So, we're kind of the BaskinRobins of

35:00
communications.

Client Diversity

35:01
Um,

35:03
we only do ice cream. We don't do

35:05
gelato. We don't do sherbet. Okay. But

35:08
of the 28 or 31 flavors, everybody loves

35:11
chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry.

35:13
Okay? They're universal, right? But

35:15
pistachio is an acquired taste. And

35:17
there are ministries who don't want to

35:20
be in the same freezer case, let alone

35:22
on the same scoop as pistachio. Okay,

35:26
I'm using a metaphor here if you could

35:28
track with me. So what I've realized is

35:31
if someone is being faithful to what God

35:33
has called them to do, as long as it's

35:36
not heretical, unethical, illegal,

35:39
immoral, whatever, and there's a a need,

35:43
a media component that we can help with,

35:45
I'm almost duty bound to help them. Even

35:47
if I can't relate to it, it may not be

35:49
my particular flavor, if you will, but

35:52
if it fits the smell test of being

35:55
orthodox and whatever, then we can help

35:57
them. and we've done that. And as I say,

36:00
we have to keep everybody in their

36:01
lanes. But that has really been a

36:04
paradigm that that has served us well.

Growth with Clients

36:07
But not all of these ministries um have

36:10
been big. When we Bishop TD Jake, for

36:12
example, he moved to Dallas, Texas in

36:17
um was it uh 9596

36:21
from Charleston, West Virginia,

36:24
other than regionally didn't know who he

36:26
was. and started working with him. But

36:28
he's just a gifted, probably one of the

36:30
most gifted preachers I've ever worked

36:32
with.

36:33
And I remember the first time I pitched

36:35
him to Larry King, um, Larry King Live.

36:38
He's passed away, but one of the big

36:40
shows on CNN. And it was like, "Bishop

36:42
who?" And I had to basically take a

36:45
flyer on this guy, Mr. King. You know,

36:47
we, you know, we've got brought you

36:48
great guests. He trust me, this guy can

36:51
and and

36:53
the bishop hit it out of the park. They

36:55
had this incredible conversation for an

36:57
hour and when it was over,

37:00
Larry King turned to his producer and

37:01
said, "Who was that guy? Let's get him

37:03
back on here." So, you know, pretty soon

37:05
it he just I mean, it's nothing we we

37:08
did. We just rode that wave as as he

37:12
his anointing. Um, so we've we've grown

37:15
with a lot of clients that maybe started

37:17
out really small. So,

Faithful Opportunities

37:18
wow.

37:19
Um, we just like I say, just try to be

37:21
faithful with whatever opportunities God

37:23
brings along. Wow. Well, Larry, I want

37:25
to finish with 10 rapid fire questions

37:28
in 60 seconds where you just say one or

37:30
two words to answer each question and

37:32
there's no wrong answer.

Rapid Fire Questions

37:34
Okay.

37:35
Who's the first person you think of when

37:37
I say servant leadership?

37:39
Um, I would say Billy Graham.

37:41
Author you recommend people listening

37:44
check out?

37:46
Um,

37:48
I would say um

37:51
Oh man, there there's so many. Uh well,

37:54
you know what I've been captured by?

37:56
This is not a one-word answer, but I

37:58
would morning and evening by um St. uh

38:01
Spurgeon has been a blessing. I read it

38:03
every day.

38:04
Favorite food?

38:05
50 years old, by the way. It's still

38:06
relevant.

38:07
Yeah. Favorite food?

38:10
Um

38:12
peanut butter.

38:13
Favorite thing to do in your free time?

38:15
Play golf. If you could do anything

38:18
else, if you tried any other career and

38:20
you look back at your life, but it

38:21
couldn't be in PR or communications,

38:22
what would you have done?

38:25
I think I would be a podcast host.

38:27
Oh, you'd be good.

38:28
I want your job.

38:29
You would have some awesome guests on

38:30
your podcast. Uh, what's a surprising

38:33
fact about you?

38:36
Um,

38:38
I may be the only person or one of the

38:40
few people you've ever met that had to

38:42
go farther to grade school than I did to

38:44
my college. I had to walk all the way

38:46
through the college to get to my grade

38:47
school on the other side.

38:49
I love that. Uh favorite place you've

38:51
been?

38:53
Mure, Switzerland. It's my happy place.

38:56
Anywhere in the world you want to go

38:57
that you haven't been to yet?

38:59
Um I've been to uh New Zealand, but I

39:03
want to go back with my wife uh to the

39:05
South Island.

39:06
All right, two more. Best advice you've

39:08
ever received.

Best Advice

39:11
um

39:13
is to

39:17
let the coach coach and reinforce the

39:20
feeling the good feelings that your kids

39:22
had in athletics.

39:24
I love that.

39:25
All right. Finally, a podcast on servant

39:27
leadership. Why should people listening

39:30
care about becoming better servant

39:32
leaders?

Importance of Servant Leadership

39:34
Because we can. It was modeled for us by

39:38
Jesus. And I think that the the more we

39:41
take that opportunity

39:43
um for others to be an example and a

39:46
model for others,

39:48
we have to we have to do that only as we

39:50
follow Jesus. And so and

39:53
it's not for others, it's for the

39:55
benefit of ourselves and others benefit

39:56
by what we're doing as we try to really

39:59
grow ourselves in our walk with Christ.

40:01
Love that. Well, Larry, thank you for

40:03
your time sharing some fun stories and

40:05
your wisdom. excited for people to check

40:07
out what you're doing and even follow

40:09
what your son is doing now as you've

40:10
passed the mantle.

Closing Remarks

40:11
Thank you, Chris. It's I had a great

40:13
time. I hope I hope you had as much fun

40:15
as I did and u every blessing to you on

40:18
your on your podcast.

40:19
Thank you for listening to this episode

40:21
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

40:24
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

40:25
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40:27
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40:37
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