Randy Alcorn's Perspective on Suffering

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My point is, if I did, would I take away

0:03
her suffering and my suffering for those

0:06
four years? And the answer is I would

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not because our heavenly father saw it

0:11
and I saw the fruit of it. And I know

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for all eternity, the payoff for her um

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and for the glory of God will be greater

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as a result of it.

Introduction to Randy Alcorn

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Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

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we welcome Randy Alorn, the founder of

0:34
Eternal Perspective Ministries.

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Randy has written 70 books that have

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been read by millions of people around

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the world, including If God is Good,

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Happiness, Heaven, and The Treasure

0:46
Principle. His newest book, All God's

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Creatures: What the Bible Says About

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Animals, Heaven, and the New Earth,

0:54
builds on the concepts he laid out in

0:56
his bestseller, Heaven.

Episode Overview

0:58
Join us as Randy shares the joy of

1:00
giving, what the Bible says about heaven

1:02
and the new earth, and why servant

1:04
leadership is so [music] important in

1:06
helping us lead like Jesus.

1:08
Also, before we dive in, [music] make

1:10
sure to give this episode a like and

1:12
subscribe or follow the show so you

1:14
don't [music] miss the next

1:15
conversation.

Welcome Randy Alcorn

1:17
Randy, welcome to the Servant Leadership

1:20
Podcast.

1:21
Thanks, Chris. Great to be with you.

Randy's Journey to Authorship

1:23
I am 10 out of 10 excited for today's

1:26
episode because you are one of my

1:28
all-time favorite authors and I don't

1:30
think I've ever said that to anyone else

1:32
on the podcast. Uh so, thank you. Uh

1:35
talk about your journey to becoming an

1:38
author because I know it was not part of

1:41
your plan initially,

1:44
right? Well, I I did start writing uh

1:47
when I was in college. I had a uh

1:50
professor uh Dr. Joseph Wong uh a

1:54
theology professor at what was then MLM

1:57
School of the Bible, later became Mult

1:59
Bible College. Um and he he wrote on top

2:03
of one of my term papers, he says,

2:05
"Randy, you should consider becoming a

2:07
writer." And that was literally the

2:09
first time I'd even thought of that. I

2:12
knew I I liked writing. Um, I liked

2:15
research. I liked doing the term papers

2:18
and that sort of thing. But that's where

2:21
it just really hit me. Um, this is, uh,

2:24
well, maybe I should consider this. And

2:27
then, uh, years later, I'm a pastor, so

2:30
I'm not doing as much writing as I'd

2:32
like to, but I did write three books

2:34
while I was a pastor,

Balancing Writing and Pastoral Work

2:37
but didn't really have time to do it.

2:39
had to kind of write in the middle of

2:40
the night, you know, while my little

2:42
children were sleeping and um you know,

2:46
because I wanted to be there for my wife

2:47
and my kids.

2:49
Uh but then God just moved me into the

2:52
whole arena of writing full-time as a

2:55
result of pro-life work where um we had

2:58
lawsuits from abortion clinics. It was

3:01
uh peaceful, nonviolent, civil

3:03
disobedience, uh standing in front of

3:06
abortion clinics, not touching anyone or

3:10
raising our voices, but just quietly um

3:14
speaking up for those who could not

3:15
speak up for themselves, the unborn

3:17
children, and then offering women

3:18
alternatives to abortion. Um that was

3:21
not real popular anywhere in the

3:24
country, but in Portland, Oregon, uh it

3:27
was extremely unpopular. And uh I was

3:31
just telling somebody earlier today

3:33
about the Gallup poll from three years

3:35
ago where uh Portland, Oregon was

3:38
identified in this poll as the single

3:40
most secular city in America by far.

3:46
Tied for second place are San Francisco

3:48
and Seattle. Portland nine percentage

3:51
points higher. The number one most

3:54
secular city in America. Well, it's been

3:56
that way uh most of my life. and uh

4:01
getting even more so. So, it was very

4:03
unpopular. Um you know, went to jail

4:06
seven times. Um you know, was [snorts]

4:08
sued uh by the largest abortion clinic

4:13
in Oregon. Um and as a result of that,

4:17
they um they won a lawsuit against a

4:20
group of us, 20ome of us. Uh and the

4:23
judge said, "You must find the, you

4:27
know, come up with a judgment against

4:28
these people that's sufficient that they

4:30
would never do anything like this

4:32
again." So they came up with the jury

4:34
came up with $8.2 million.

Financial Impact of Lawsuit

4:37
Uh which as I tell people, you know, was

4:39
more than I made as a pastor in a year.

4:41
Uh but [laughter] no but anyway it was

4:44
like

4:45
uh suddenly I had to resign from my

4:49
church uh because they were coming to

4:52
garnish my wages. Um but from that point

4:55
forward I could only make minimum wage

4:57
and I did for the next 20 years but God

5:00
provided. I mean, the ministry found

5:02
ways to take care of me. Like I, you

5:05
know, they they owned the car, so they

5:08
made the car payments. They paid the for

5:10
the gas. You know, it's not like we

5:12
really suffered, but somehow during that

5:15
time, our kids uh went to um well, one

5:19
of them went all the way through the M's

5:21
college. Uh we didn't have to borrow

5:24
completely out of debt. I don't know. I

5:27
look back at it, I can't even figure out

5:29
how it all worked, but it did. Um, and

5:32
so those were years that then freed me

5:35
up from that point forward to do writing

5:38
as part of my job description,

Transition to Full-Time Writing

5:41
eternal perspective ministries, we call

5:42
it. And so writing and speaking are part

5:45
of what I do. No longer a pastor, which

5:48
freed me up to do the writing I do.

5:51
Yeah. Well, that journey is absolutely

5:54
crazy, but it it probably was uh very

5:58
helpful for then writing the treasure

6:00
principle to talk about how you viewed

6:02
money, I would imagine. So, the treasure

6:05
principle for those that haven't read

6:07
it, it is very small uh to read, but it

6:11
is one of the most powerful books on

6:13
money that I think I've ever read. Um

6:16
talk about how that came to be and what

6:18
you were hoping when you wrote that.

The Treasure Principle

6:21
Yeah, I had written a larger book uh

6:24
money, possessions, and eternity um back

6:27
in 1989 and then it was updated again in

6:30
2006 or something like that. uh a book

6:33
that's had a lot of influence, a lot of

6:35
impact, but I wanted to get something

6:37
smaller that would hopefully get into

6:39
more hands uh that was more centered

6:43
directly on giving, not the whole realm

6:45
of financial stewardship

6:48
uh but giving in particular. And wow,

6:52
did God answer that prayer in amazing

6:54
ways. Um, I I remember back in when it

6:59
first came out, 2002, something like

7:02
that. Uh, I I invited some pastor

7:05
friends, hey, uh, I made a deal with

7:07
publisher where you could get this book

7:10
for a dollar each, which was, you know,

7:15
their actual cost um, to print the book

7:18
back then. and it would be much more

7:20
now, but um and you could get it for

7:24
your church if you wanted to. Well, one

7:26
of the friends that I sent the email to

7:29
was Rick Warren, and he says, "Well,

7:31
we'll buy 14,000 of those if you'll come

7:33
down here and speak on it." And I go,

7:36
"Probably don't have to pray about that

7:37
too long." Yes, I will. You know, um so

7:40
they bought the first like 14,000

7:43
copies. Um and then as a result of that

7:48
word of mouth, it was like the greatest

7:51
advertising thing because uh they got

7:54
it. Will Creek got it. Other, you know,

7:57
large you various mega churches got a

8:00
hold of it and the next thing I know

8:02
it's selling like crazy. I think now

8:04
it's sold two and a half million copies,

8:06
something like that. But my idea was

8:09
simply to help people give more. And if

8:12
you look at it a and learn the joy of

8:15
giving um it it talks about the treasure

8:18
hidden in the field and the man that

8:20
goes and s sells all he can all he owns

8:24
so that he can have that treasure and if

8:27
a and if a guy would do that for an

8:29
earthly treasure um what should we do

8:32
for heavenly treasures and Jesus says

8:35
don't store for yourself treasures on

8:37
earth where moth and dust corrupt where

8:39
thieves break in and steal start for

8:41
elves treasures in heaven. Uh where none

8:44
of that's going to happen. So he's his

8:46
argument isn't simply give because it's

8:51
the right thing to do, but give because

8:53
it's the smart thing to do.

8:55
It just makes sense. And it's not just

8:57
for the eternal treasures we'll get

8:59
after we die. I mean, if that's all it

9:01
was for, that would be sufficient.

9:04
But it's for the joy

9:06
that we experience. Um Jesus said in

9:08
acts 20:35

9:11
the only uh verse in the book of acts

9:14
there's a statement of Jesus that is not

9:16
in the gospels. He says it is more happy

9:20
making to give than to receive. That

9:22
Greek word macario

9:24
if you look it up in a lexicon it means

9:27
happymaking. And so when we hear it's

9:30
more blessed to or blessed to give than

9:33
to receive, we think, "Oh, it's a it's

9:35
like a holiness word." Um, no, it's a

9:39
happiness word. Um, and uh I'm I'm all

9:42
for holiness, but we have plenty of

9:44
holiness verses. So, let's not take the

9:46
happiness verses away because that one

9:48
is about happiness. It'll make you

9:50
happier to give than to receive. Who

9:52
could turn that down?

Teaching the Joy of Giving

9:54
Yeah. I mean, you've had so many

9:56
conversations with people about money,

9:59
and it's interesting, and I want to get

10:01
into heaven, too, but you talk about

10:03
money and heaven in in two different

10:06
veins through your books, and I know you

10:08
talk about more than that, but [snorts]

10:10
it's two of the things that people think

10:12
about the most. Uh, their money and

10:14
their possessions, then what is going to

10:15
happen after they die? You know, those

10:17
two questions are on people's mind all

10:19
the time. On the money side,

10:21
I I'm curious. It's so hard for people

10:24
to want to part with their money. And

10:27
you talk about the joy of giving, but

10:30
the joy of giving is something that is

10:32
learned over time. You know, it it's

10:34
hard to teach and we're trying to teach

10:36
it even with kids early. How have you

10:38
seen people successfully teach the joy

10:41
of giving versus the mine and it's all

10:45
mine?

Overcoming Selfishness in Giving

10:47
Yeah, it is. Um

10:51
I I think the big test is if you can get

10:55
people to give and then they will

10:58
experience the joy of giving. The worst

11:01
thing is people being stingy and selfish

11:05
and they're not giving because they

11:07
think of it as devesting themselves

11:10
instead of investing themselves in what

11:13
matters and will bring joy to your heart

11:15
and count for eternity. So I think the

11:18
biggest challenge is just simply to get

11:20
people to give. Even if at first it's

11:23
out of just straight obedience. Well,

11:26
that's not a bad thing. You know,

11:28
there's things that we do strictly

11:30
because we desire to obey God. If that's

11:34
where you start with giving,

11:36
uh that that's fine, but but be sure you

11:40
look at giving as the joygiving thing

11:44
that God intends it to be. I mean he

11:46
talks about in 2 Corinthians 8 and9

11:48
which is the longest uh portion on

11:51
giving in the New Testament uh and he

11:54
talks about the Macedonian church and

11:57
how in their poverty their extreme

12:00
poverty their their hearts overflowed

12:04
with rich generosity

12:07
and it's like how does that even make

12:09
sense? They're in poverty and so there

12:12
it's got to hurt them to give away this

12:14
now. It it brings such joy to their

12:18
lives, overwhelming joy. And these are

12:21
poor people. And I think that's one of

12:24
the things if we can just wrap our minds

12:26
around the joy that God brings through

12:29
giving, it will change us.

Exploring Heaven

12:32
I love that. So, how did you get into

12:35
talking about heaven after you talked a

12:38
lot about money in some previous books?

12:42
Yeah. Well, part of the part of it is

12:43
the logical connection between what

12:46
Jesus said, you know, don't store for

12:48
yourself treasures on earth, store for

12:50
yourself treasures in heaven. Well,

12:52
that's in heaven. Okay? He's thinking of

12:55
heaven as a real place. And then I

12:58
started studying um more and more about

13:01
heaven and writing about it and um had a

13:05
few books. One was called uh in light of

13:08
eternity. Another one was fiction edge

13:11
of eternity. But just about um just

13:15
thinking about the world to come. Um

13:20
my mom uh died. My mom was a I I had the

13:24
joy of leading her to faith in Christ a

13:26
couple years after I became a Christian

13:27
when I was in high school. And she just

13:30
became this devoted servant of Jesus.

13:33
Threw herself into her fourth and fifth

13:36
grade Sunday school girls classes she

13:38
taught. Uh literally wrote a handwritten

13:42
letter. I mean, the oldfashioned

13:44
letters, not email, you know, and sent

13:47
it in the mail each week to each of the

13:50
girls in her classes. Uh, it just

13:53
amazing. But I saw my mom, I saw her

13:57
life change. And, uh, I, uh, but she

14:01
became

14:03
heavenly minded in the best sense of the

14:05
term. Um, and we would talk about

14:07
heaven. And then um when she was in 1981

14:13
when our uh young oldest girl was two

14:16
and a half years old and loved going

14:18
over every Monday to Grandma Alhorn's

14:20
house and she would just take care of

14:23
her and we'd read her Bible stories. Um

14:26
and then just after our second uh child

14:29
was born um my mom died of cancer and it

14:33
was heartbreaking. But then I'm thinking

14:36
where is my mom now? Well, she's in this

14:38
place, heaven, but what do I really know

14:41
about it? So, you know, I'm studying

14:42
heaven from that point of view. Then, uh

14:45
I decided I'm going to write a big book

14:47
on heaven. Uh and uh basically a

14:51
theology of heaven. And I started that

14:54
and I I did not know where it was going

14:56
to take me. Where it took me was

14:59
radically changing my view of heaven,

15:03
that is of the eternal heaven. because

15:06
I'd been to Bible college and seminary,

15:09
but my view of heaven was the

15:11
stereotypical view of the the boring

15:14
place where okay, I'm sure singing is

15:17
fine, but maybe uh after a couple

15:19
hundred thousand years, we'll get tired

15:20
of that, you know, but but I I just

15:24
didn't have a grasp of the biblical

15:26
doctrine of heaven because the biblical

15:28
doctrine of heaven does not end to where

15:31
it does for most Christians, which as

15:34
like you die and it's far better to be

15:38
with Christ and that's wonderful but you

15:39
go to be with him and that's a

15:41
disembodied state and then that's all it

15:44
is forever. Well, of course, the Bible

15:47
talks about the resurrection, but how

15:48
often do people get taught about the

15:51
resurrected world, the heaven where

15:55
resurrection has taken place? And it's

15:58
not just human beings that will be

16:00
resurrected, people who know Jesus. It's

16:04
also the entire world uh itself. Uh and

16:08
we will live in the new earth will be

16:11
the resurrected earth. Now we will be

16:14
new people. If anyone be in Christ is a

16:17
new creation, the old has passed away.

16:18
All things have become new. We're new

16:20
people, but we're the same people made

16:22
new. There's continuity. So I mean,

16:25
we'll stand before the judgment seat of

16:26
Christ. Of course, we're the same people

16:28
that we were and we'll give an answer

16:29
for everything that we've done well in

16:30
the body. We don't go to heaven and

16:32
become new people, different people. We

16:34
become new only in the sense of without

16:36
sin, but we don't, you know, we're not

16:40
re reinvented. And the world itself will

16:43
be a new world, a new earth. And if I

16:46
said I was going to give you a new car,

16:47
which is not true. I'm not going to. But

16:49
if I said that, you you'd say, "Oh, I'll

16:52
bet it won't have brakes or a steering

16:55
wheel." and uh I'll bet it won't be this

16:58
or that or whatever and tires and

17:01
hubcaps or anything like that. You say,

17:02
"Well, no, it will be that because cars

17:05
have those things. I have to be a little

17:07
car uh careful with e-cars and all that

17:09
that I'm not saying gasoline or

17:11
something, you know. Um I guess they

17:13
still have batteries, don't they?" So,

17:15
but whatever. Batteries. I mean, all the

17:17
things that go into a car, well, that

17:19
all the things that go into an Earth are

17:20
going to be on the new Earth. So, we're

17:22
going to have people. We're going to

17:24
have uh things to do, places to go,

17:26
people to see. Uh there's buildings that

17:29
are described, the New Jerusalem,

17:31
there's this great uh uh garden uh park,

17:35
there's uh the trees grow on both sides

17:38
of the river. The tree of life grows on

17:39
both sides of the river. So now it's a

17:41
forest of of life. Uh there'll be

17:44
animals on the new earth. And uh Isaiah

17:47
11 makes that emphatically clear. for

17:49
all these different species of animals,

17:50
former predators with former prey and

17:53
living at peace with each other. This is

17:56
the earth, the new earth, the eternal

17:59
heaven God promises to his people. Well,

18:03
I'm writing this book on heaven and I'm

18:04
not prepared for this and I'm finding

18:06
this in not very many books at all

18:09
because most of them are just the

18:10
disembodied state and how great it's

18:13
going to be. Except it didn't seem like

18:14
it was going to be so great. Well, now

18:16
you think about God made us to live on

18:18
planet Earth. Eden was a paradise and

18:23
Jesus said, "Today to the thief on the

18:25
cross, "Today you'll be with me in

18:26
paradise." Heaven is a paradise and

18:28
there will be an eternal paradise, an

18:30
eternal Eden on the new earth. And

18:33
that's when I realized this isn't really

18:36
in very many at all of the books that

18:39
I'm reading on heaven. And I read 150

18:41
books on heaven.

Paradigm Shift on Heaven

18:42
Wow. And uh it was like some of them got

18:47
into a theology of the new earth and

18:49
that's where the paradigm shift

18:51
happened.

18:52
Wow.

Physicality of Heaven

18:53
Well, and I know you start out the the

18:56
book Heaven on uh with something along

18:59
the lines of like you don't know if it's

19:01
100% true, but it's your best

19:03
interpretation of scripture and we'll

19:05
find out when we get there what what

19:07
parts of it were right or something to

19:09
that effect. as you were going through

19:11
it, what was maybe the biggest thing

19:14
that just hit you over the head of like,

19:15
I can't believe I've missed this all

19:17
that time and that you found really

19:19
helps people understand who Jesus is uh

19:23
in their own life as they start to

19:24
understand it.

19:26
Yeah, I would say it would be that thing

19:29
of the physicality

19:31
of our eternal future, the resurrection

19:35
dimension of it. The the reality of what

19:39
uh Ephesians 1 talks about uh all things

19:42
in heaven and earth being reconciled and

19:46
and united. Very similar passage in

19:49
Colossians 1. God will uh unite. God

19:54
will renew uh all things in heaven and

19:58
on earth. And then uh Acts three where

20:02
Peter says as the prophets foretold, God

20:06
will restore all things. And Jesus in

20:10
Matthew 19 um that um he will uh what's

20:16
the word used there? uh renew or restore

20:20
some translations um things in heaven

20:23
and in that new world that we will live

20:26
in where you will be uh he's talking the

20:29
apostles where they will be rewarded and

20:31
they'll sit on the thrones and uh reign

20:34
literally

20:36
um in a physical world that we'll live

20:39
in forever. the eating and drinking

20:42
Jesus uh eight times in his resurrected

20:45
body eating and drinking with the

20:48
apostles. Uh so now you get the picture

20:52
of when they're eating and drinking on

20:54
the new earth. These are literal

20:56
banquetss. These are actual and when

20:59
Jesus ate food, you know, it didn't drop

21:01
through his body like he was a ghost. He

21:03
says, "I am not a ghost. A ghost does

21:06
not have flesh and bones as I have." So

21:10
that all is just hitting me. We will

21:11
have flesh and bones forever. We will be

21:15
physical people with physical bodies. We

21:18
will eat and we will drink. I'm sure

21:20
we'll have appetites because nobody

21:23
wants to I mean if if you don't have any

21:26
hunger, you won't eat. When it says we

21:29
will not hunger or thirst, it means we

21:31
will not go hungry or go thirsty. We

21:34
will always have all the food and water

21:37
that we want to drink, but we will enjoy

21:40
these feasts. They wouldn't be feasts if

21:42
we didn't enjoy them. The physicality of

21:45
the world to come, the fact that you

21:48
look around you and you, you know what

21:51
the earth is. So when you're told it's

21:53
going to be a new earth, it's going to

21:55
be like this, but even more beautiful

21:58
and more wonderful and without all the

22:00
bad stuff. No sin, no sickness, no

22:04
disease. All things will be made new.

22:07
And now that is something that a child

22:12
can go, "Wow."

22:14
Yeah. But but again, you can't I one of

22:17
the things I say in the heaven book is

22:18
that uh you will never learn to have an

22:22
appetite for eating growl. And the way

22:25
that heaven has been described to so

22:27
many Christians is like really you go to

22:31
this angelic place and you don't have

22:34
anything to do or anywhere to go except

22:37
all you can do is sing and and that's

22:40
it. There that's all there is. Well, you

22:44
will never develop an appetite for that

22:46
any more than you would for eating

22:47
gravel.

Excitement About Heaven

22:49
But the irony is

22:52
scripture, what scripture does say about

22:54
heaven is so exciting. This heaven on

22:56
earth thing and Jesus reigning over the

22:59
earth and um there's passages in Daniel

23:02
that relate to it reigning forever and

23:05
ever and God's people. Uh and what a

23:08
world it will be. That is something to

23:10
get excited about. And so I got excited

23:13
about it when I was writing about it,

23:14
but I didn't know how excited people

23:16
would get when they read about it

23:17
because sometimes you just, you know,

23:20
it's hard to predict. I somebody at

23:22
Tindel House, the publisher told me, you

23:24
know, you this is a big book where you

23:28
quote a lot from dead authors and you

23:32
know, like the Puritans and others and

23:34
and it's like um don't expect this book

23:37
to sell very much. Um and I go, well,

23:39
thank you for that. Uh but then you know

23:42
now it's sold a million and a half plus

23:45
copies. So

All God's Creatures

23:46
wow. So with your newest book, All God's

23:50
Creatures, talk about what is in that

23:53
that wasn't in heaven and how did that

23:56
build on heaven?

23:57
Yes. Okay. So I had two chapters in the

24:00
big heaven book uh on animals. Um uh one

24:05
of them about animals in the new world

24:08
and then the other one just asking uh

24:11
the question are there animals alive in

24:13
the world today and could some of them

24:16
be our pets that will be alive on the

24:18
new earth. So, two chapters. So, a

24:22
relatively short amount of information,

24:25
but the single most um frequent question

24:30
I've gotten in all these years related

24:32
to heaven is about animals. Maybe part

24:35
is because I did touch on it in the

24:38
book, but people wanted more. And so, we

24:40
get these letters weekly from people

24:43
asking this question. I'm kind of I'm

24:46
almost embarrassed to ask this, but and

24:48
I and I know what they're going to say

24:49
then. It's going to be about animals. Uh

24:51
is is my dog going to be there? Is my

24:53
cat going to be there or whatever. And

24:55
honestly, there's a a lot of um pastors

24:59
and and I know many pastors and I love

25:02
pastors. I was a pastor. My many of my

25:05
best friends are pastors. But but there

25:08
are some who seem to make a really big

25:12
point out of what a silly question that

25:14
yes, there be animals in heaven. And I

25:16
think it's an overreaction to the way

25:19
that uh some people have idolized

25:21
animals. And so to then uh the idea is

25:26
uh all of these excesses that we see a

25:30
woman died and left $9 million to her

25:32
cat or you know just bizarre things like

25:35
that. See how the world idolizes and

25:38
let's not be worldly. Uh and it's the

25:41
worldly people that value animals. Uh

25:44
it's or it's the liberals who value

25:46
animals. Like somebody said asked me are

25:48
you going liberal? you I am I going

25:51
liberal because I'm writing a theology

25:52
of animals. I mean, no, I'm writing a

25:55
biblical theology of animals. It's true

25:58
to what the Bible says. So, why are you

26:02
It's almost like no, if if you're

26:04
thinking right, you would never think

26:06
animals are important. I mean, come on,

26:09
look at Genesis 1.

26:11
uh by far more said about the animals

26:15
created on uh uh uh days five and six.

26:20
Uh because you got the water animals,

26:22
then you got the land animals, you got

26:23
the sky animals, and then you've got

26:25
people created. Are people more

26:28
important than animals? Of course,

26:29
they're created in God's image. Animals

26:31
are not. But then people will say things

26:34
like, and and besides, animals don't

26:36
have souls. Animals can't be in heaven

26:40
because

26:41
uh they're they're not redeemed. Why are

26:44
they not redeemed? Well, for one thing,

26:46
they never sinned. Okay. So, are you

26:48
arguing that if animals would have uh

26:52
sinned, they would have been far better

26:53
off because they could have been

26:54
redeemed like people? Why are you even

26:56
making that point? But the point is,

26:59
well, uh do animals have souls? Well,

27:02
the word the Hebrew word nephesh that's

27:04
used of to speak of human souls in

27:07
Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 is used first of

27:11
animals within sentences of each other

27:15
but but the translations now the old

27:18
translation said soul for both the souls

27:20
of the living creatures you know but but

27:23
now now it's translated living creatures

27:26
so it's not not translated soul um but

27:29
for humans it is often translated soul,

27:32
which is that's not consistent. You

27:34
know, it's the same Hebrew word for a

27:37
living being.

27:40
And so all you have to do is say, we're

27:42
not saying animals have human souls.

27:45
They don't. They have animal souls. But

27:48
are you telling me you don't recognize

27:50
the difference between a dog and a rock?

27:53
I mean, or even a dog in a tree. I mean,

27:56
of course, your animal can look in your

27:58
eyes. Your animal can suffer. your

28:00
animal has love and has devotion and all

28:05
of this. And so the Bible says it's a

28:07
soloulish creature. In Ecclesiastes 3,

28:10
both humans and animals are said to have

28:12
spirits. The same ruach, the same Hebrew

28:15
word, uh that is nauma in

Introduction to Animal Theology

28:18
the New Testament, spirit. Um, and I mean,

28:22
scripture says all these things, but

28:24
it's as if we ignore them, think they're

28:26
unimportant, think it's only the

28:28
liberals who care about them, and we're

28:30
not going to go off the deep end. And

28:32
it's kind of crazy. So, here I am

28:34
writing this book, and literally all the

28:36
books I've written, so on happiness, on

28:39
um, heaven, on the prolife end of

28:43
things, um, the problem of evil and

28:45
suffering. I've written lots of books

28:48
and some of them have definite

28:50
distinctives to them that aren't common

28:52
in other books on the subject. But have

28:55
I ever been able to say this is the

28:58
first book of its kind?

29:00
Um, no. No. Uhuh. And and people who say

29:04
that sometimes I have to smile because I

29:05
can think of three books that are quite

29:07
similar to their book. Uh, but they

29:09
think this was original with them. So

29:11
I've never would never say it. Well, for

29:14
the first time, I truly believe this is

29:17
the first evangelical theology of

29:19
animals of any substance that has ever

29:23
been written. I I I I'm a tireless

29:26
researcher

29:28
and uh I could find no other.

Significance of Animals

29:31
Wow.

29:32
Well, I I understand why heaven is

29:35
important because it's about us. When

29:37
you think through all God's creatures

29:40
and it being about animals, heaven, the

29:43
new earth, like why does it matter to

29:46
us?

29:47
Well, here's the thing. Because it

29:49
matters to God. His word is there 3,800

29:54
references to animals in the Bible. And

29:57
sure, a lot of those are sacrificial

29:59
animals, you know, different things. But

30:01
even that is, you know what? What made

30:05
animals a worthy sacrifice on behalf of

30:08
human beings? Well, because they're

30:11
without sin. They're living beings

30:13
without sin. Try to find other living

30:15
beings without sin on the earth. It's

30:18
pretty limited. It's animals, right? So,

30:21
there's that. Then think of think of the

30:25
uh Genesis 1 account, but also think of

30:28
the flood narrative. Genesis 6 through9.

30:32
So God is going to bring judgment on the

30:36
whole world and he sends this flood on

30:40
and then he decides to make a boat.

30:41
Well, for eight people that boat could

30:44
have been real small.

30:46
But it's not just the people he rescues.

30:49
It's not just the people he cares about.

30:51
He cares about the animals. That's why

30:53
the ark had to be so big. All these

30:56
species of animals. And furthermore,

30:59
think about how Romans 1 and two and you

31:02
know other passages talk about how God

31:03
reveals himself in in the world in his

31:06
creation.

God's Care for Animals

31:08
Um how many species of human beings are

31:11
there? The answer is one.

31:14
Okay. Yeah, there's different colors and

31:16
there's different we say Caucasians and

31:19
you know whatever but there's one

31:21
species of human beings. There's one

31:24
kind of human beings.

31:26
Uh but animals there's like now there is

31:32
like 8 million species of animals. Of

31:35
course in the beginning there weren't

31:36
that many but but new species are

31:38
developing all the time. But but even if

31:41
you go with families uh of animals that

31:43
were represented on the ark. So maybe

31:46
maybe uh there weren't any dogs as we

31:50
know them, but they were wolves because

31:53
dogs are from the wolf family. Okay. Uh

31:55
maybe um there were no uh kitty cats as

32:00
we know them, cats as we know them, but

32:02
there were the big cats, you know,

32:04
whether it was leopards or, you know,

32:06
panthers, whatever. Um but

32:10
God cared so much about them that he

32:13
wanted representatives of each, whether

32:16
we call them species or family or

32:18
whatever, to be on the ark. So were they

32:22
important to God? Yeah, they're

32:23
important to God. Well, what about uh

32:25
the book of Job? The book of Job uh the

32:28
last four chapters of Job are are b or

32:32
three and a half anyway are basically

32:34
God revealing himself to Job in the most

32:38
singular

32:40
direct communication from God in all the

32:43
Bible. He often spoke through the

32:45
prophets chapter after chapter, but he

32:50
spoke directly to Job. And here are his

32:54
words. And what does he talk about?

Animals in Scripture

32:58
Animals. I mean, he talks a little bit

33:00
about the natural uh inanimate creation.

33:04
He talks all about creation. And it's

33:06
like, okay, couldn't you talk about

33:09
anything else, Lord? Well, how about

33:10
your future plan of redemption or

33:12
something that's going to encourage Job?

33:14
I mean, you're talking about your

33:16
creation and the wonders of your

33:17
creation, and most of it's about

33:19
animals. And God's going on and on

33:22
talking about animals. He's talking

33:24
about the horse and the way when it

33:25
runs, it eats up the ground. And God is

33:29
God is so proud of this horse that he's

33:32
made. And there's Leviathan and

33:33
Beahhemoth. And there's but all of these

33:36
normal animals, um, mountain goats, um,

33:40
the ostrich, all these animals. So

33:44
again,

33:46
if he God was going to talk about one

33:48
thing and he did, would any of us guess

33:51
he would talk about animals? So

33:54
obviously animals are more important to

33:55
him than they are to us. Think about the

33:57
book of Jonah. You've got Jonah is just

34:00
a fascinating book because you've got

34:02
you've got uh the whale or the giant sea

34:04
creature. Uh you you've got the the the

34:08
little worm that eats up the plant. Um,

34:11
you've got the animals and you have

34:16
Nineveh repenting and the king of

34:19
Nineveh ordering that not only the

34:22
people repent and sackcloth and ashes,

34:24
but the animals have sackcloth and ashes

34:27
put on. And you can say, well, that's a

34:28
pagan king, so he doesn't know any

34:30
better. But the very last word of the

34:34
book of Jonah spoken by the Lord is he's

34:38
looking at Jonah and essentially

34:40
rebuking him um and saying Jonah,

34:46
shouldn't I have cared for all those

34:50
people of Nineveh and besides also all

34:53
those animals? Last word of the book,

34:57
animals. And it's like I I didn't just

35:01
save Nine Nineveh for the sake of the

35:03
people. I saved it for the sake of the

35:05
animals.

Jesus and Creation

35:07
There's a lot of that in scripture. And

35:09
you look at Jesus and going out in the

35:11
wilderness and he u he was out there uh

35:14
in the temptation with the wild animals.

35:17
You you look at the incarnation. Um a

35:20
barn in Bethlehem. There's animals

35:22
there. Um you've got the shepherds. Um

35:26
and uh you You've got you've got all of

35:30
these uh on all the analogies. So Jesus

35:33
being the good shepherd, Jesus being a

35:35
lamb, Jesus being the lion, um all of

35:39
these things that are so significant and

35:42
I just think we have neglected this

35:44
whole arena.

35:46
The Bible is full of theological truths

35:50
about animals and we we just don't think

35:53
about them.

Encouragement for Readers

35:56
It's interesting. I I'm so excited about

35:59
this book and having our audience listen

36:01
to it or read it. I listen to books, but

36:04
people I know love to read it. One of

36:06
the things that was influential to me

36:08
was

36:10
uh stuff I've seen at the Creation

36:12
Museum or the Institute for Creation

36:13
Research just talking about creation and

36:16
how it's not about

36:19
and maybe they would not approve this,

36:21
but it's not about seven days. It's

36:23
about pointing us to Jesus in creation

36:25
and what it will be like with him for

36:26
eternity. Yes, the seven days thing

36:28
comes up, but it was more about what is

36:31
the relationship with God and humanity.

36:33
You know, you talk a lot about heaven,

36:36
the new earth. In the new book, you talk

36:38
about animals. What are some things that

36:40
you think are really important for

36:42
people who believe in God or don't

36:44
believe in God to take away from the

36:47
content you've written over the years on

36:48
all these topics?

Writing and God's Revelation

36:51
Well, uh, yeah, I've, uh,

36:53
[clears throat] my 70th book comes out

36:55
in January. So, I've written a lot of

36:56
books [laughter] on a lot of different

36:58
subjects, but but some of them are, uh,

37:01
I'll write a big book on a subject like

37:03
heaven. And then I'll have several

37:04
spin-off books. They're devotionals, 50

37:06
days of heaven or whatever it be. This

37:09
all God's creatures book on, uh, that's

37:11
coming out, I'm sure. Um I'm already

37:13
working on a a devotional that would be

37:17
an animal story each day that

37:19
corresponds to it and all but I would

37:21
just say um God has revealed himself in

37:26
the world that he made. So yes, we we

37:30
have um we have the natural world um and

37:34
we have natural law and then we also

37:37
have the revealed truths of scripture.

37:40
revealed truth in scripture is primary.

37:44
Um, other things are secondary. So, I'm

37:49
not going to say, uh, look at the way

37:52
the world is, uh, and then draw your

37:56
conclusions about God because you see

37:57
what he's like from the world. Well,

37:59
sometimes you see, um, the animals that

38:02
eat their young,

38:03
right? So, that that would not be good

38:06
to conclude. Now I'm learning about how

38:08
God operates because I see animals eat

38:10
their young. I guess he must do that

38:12
too, you know. Of course not. Why?

38:14
Because we live in a world that is

38:16
fallen. So that's the second thing I

38:17
would say is don't just look at the

38:19
world. Remember that this world is just

38:22
a pale reflection of what it once was.

38:26
Yet even here I look outside on this

38:29
beautiful bright blue skyed Oregon day

38:32
with green everywhere that I'm looking

38:35
at and I'm going

38:37
this may be the remnants. This may be a

38:40
fallen world and it's still beautiful. I

38:44
mean it's it takes your breath away. So

38:46
you go to Niagara Falls or whatever and

38:48
you say I'm seeing the world under the

38:49
curse. How great was it when it wasn't

38:53
under the curse? So this is what I would

38:54
just say. Use your imagination and don't

38:58
don't let your image of the world to

39:00
come be tainted by what you see around

39:03
you now. Let it be encouraged by what

39:05
you see, the beautiful things and and

39:08
even the beautiful things including um

39:11
uh marriages where there's true love and

39:14
and parent child relationships with true

39:17
love. And then yes, of course, we've got

39:20
abuse. We've got all of that. But look

39:22
at the goodness of creation and

39:24
celebrate that and realize that God

39:26
promises one day the entire creation

39:30
shall be renewed in absolute goodness.

Hope in Creation's Renewal

39:35
And it is going to be breathtaking. And

39:39
God himself, Revelation 21 says, is

39:42
going to wipe away the tears from every

39:44
eye. No more suffering, no more pain, no

39:49
more death. For the old order of things

39:51
has passed away. Behold, I am making all

39:54
things new. Not I'm making all new

39:57
things. It will be the old things that

39:59
are made new. And what a cause for

40:03
celebration that's going to be.

40:05
Yeah, I love that. Something that I

40:07
think about and when people read some of

40:09
the titles of your books, uh, but they

40:12
haven't read your books, they might

40:14
think that your focus is not on Jesus

40:17
and your focus is on things like heaven,

40:19
the new earth, animals, money, whatever.

40:22
But in the end, if somebody actually

40:24
reads your books, they'll see that those

40:26
are just helping people understand Jesus

40:28
better. What would you say to people who

40:30
are who are viewing your books through

40:33
those lenses maybe without understanding

40:35
the centrality of Jesus?

Centrality of Jesus

40:37
Yeah, I would say just read one of them

40:39
[laughter]

40:40
because honestly it probably doesn't

40:42
matter which one. Uh it is all about

40:45
Jesus. I I have a book called It's All

40:48
About Jesus or or maybe All about Jesus

40:51
um with great quotations from people in

40:54
history. I really had fun writing that

40:56
book and I can honestly say to people

40:58
this is a great book because most of it

41:01
I didn't write most of it I collected

41:04
right so I can safely say this is a

41:07
great book um some of the quotes are

41:10
from me but the vast majority are from

41:11
other people but yeah and it really is

41:15
all about Jesus I mean if you're if

41:17
you're going to read one book read that

41:19
one and you would see literally every

41:22
single segment of the book is all about

41:25
Jesus. There's no other subject. I mean

41:28
uh obviously other subjects touch upon

41:31
Jesus himself. But uh but then I would

41:34
say what's the heaven book ultimately

41:36
most about. What's the happiness book?

41:38
The hap the happiness book is mainly

41:41
about finding happiness in Jesus. And if

41:43
you looked up the the words happiness in

41:46
Jesus, it probably would occur might

41:48
occur 100 times in the course of the

41:51
book or at least 50 times or whatever,

41:54
but it it would be very frequently

41:56
occurring. And and of course with that

41:58
book that I deal with the fact that you

42:01
know people have said um you're not

42:03
supposed to talk about happiness because

42:05
it's only joy that we should care about

42:07
and there is no difference between joy

42:09
and happiness. the the Greek words, the

42:11
Hebrew words, they're interchangeable.

42:14
They mean the same. Look it up. And so

42:17
this came along, you know, somewhere

42:19
along the line. Oh, no. Uh, we can only

42:22
be joyful, but we shouldn't be happy.

42:24
God doesn't care about your happiness.

42:26
He only cares about your holiness.

42:28
Actually, he does care about our

42:29
happiness. But our problem is we keep

42:32
trying to find happiness in all the

42:33
wrong places.

42:35
We've got to find it in the right place.

42:36
And then God loves our happiness when

42:38
it's in, you know, the right place. But

42:41
yeah, in the end, it's all about Jesus.

Addressing Misconceptions

42:44
Yeah. In your other books, and we don't

42:46
have time to get into it on this

42:47
podcast, but if people check out your

42:49
other work, you talk about happiness and

42:51
you talk about grief from some really

42:53
interesting standpoints that I know have

42:55
helped shape my view on both of those

42:57
things. One thing I'm curious though uh

43:00
about is what is something that you're

43:03
wrestling with? because when I when I

43:05
see your content, it seems like you have

43:08
so many answers or at least great views

43:10
on things that you admit to not knowing

43:12
fully, but this is your take on it.

43:14
What's something that you feel like,

43:15
gosh, this has me stumped and I I wish I

43:17
understood it better.

Wrestling with Mysteries

43:19
Yeah, I mean there are things like that.

43:22
The interesting thing is I've devoted so

43:25
much time to the things I didn't know

43:29
and really wanted to know that now I

43:32
have quite a few reference points for

43:34
those things. But mysteries, yeah, I I

43:37
would say when it comes down to the

43:39
mysteries and of course uh so written

43:42
maybe five books on the problem of evil

43:44
and suffering including uh a big book

43:47
called If God is good in a in a booklet

43:50
by that same title. Uh, but you know, I

43:52
jokingly say to people, yeah, what have

43:54
you written on? And then I say, you

43:56
know, the problem of evil and suffering.

43:57
And by the way, I solved that problem if

43:59
you want to check that out. You know,

44:01
and of course I'm joking because I

44:02
didn't solve that problem. And so I

44:04
would say that's the one. I mean, the

44:06
problem of evil and suffering. Uh, I do

44:10
not

44:12
I do not understand it, though I do

44:15
understand it far better than I once did

44:18
before I spent four years researching it

44:20
and interviewing people all over the

44:22
world who've suffered terribly. Um, and

44:26
seeing the joy that God can bring in

44:28
suffering. Uh but can I explain why uh

44:34
terrible terrible things happen and why

44:37
children suffer and why God allows

44:40
horrible abuse and you know all of that.

44:42
No, I mean I'm going to have words like

44:44
I created a world in which um you know

44:47
people had a freedom to choose and then

44:49
chose the wrong way. Yeah, but that

44:51
doesn't that doesn't ultimately reassure

44:54
my heart. I I can quote Romans 8:28 that

44:59
God works all things together for good

45:00
to those who love God. But when I look

45:02
at people who right now, this moment are

45:05
undergoing horrific suffering.

45:09
Um I I can believe Romans 8:28,

45:13
but I can't wrap my mind around it. I

45:16
can't grasp that. That that's things in

45:20
that whole arena would be the very

45:22
things that I think I would answer your

45:25
question with. Yeah.

Faith Amidst Suffering

45:26
But here's the thing. I I have a greater

45:30
faith in God

45:32
that he will keep all of his promises to

45:34
his children than I have ever had,

45:37
having gone through my wife's four years

45:40
of cancer. Um and and now it's been uh

45:44
four years since she went home to be

45:46
with the Lord. So going back eight years

45:48
to when her cancer started and go going

45:51
walking with her through that and having

45:53
seen her, she was a very godly woman,

45:57
but she devoted herself to reading all

46:00
these books by Jerry Bridges, uh,

46:03
trusting God, uh, John Piper, Desiring

46:06
God, um, Jip Packer, Knowing God. We've

46:10
got kind of a common theme here, God-

46:12
centered

46:13
stuff. And I saw her reading those books

46:16
and writing in her journal every day.

46:18
And I saw her, who had been a very godly

46:22
person, become a saint. I mean, it was

46:28
it was it was amazing. I loved her with

46:30
all my heart. But by the time she

46:33
finally left this world, um, and and

46:37
when I say finally, I I don't mean

46:39
finally like last time I'll ever see

46:40
her. will be reunited in the presence of

46:43
Jesus. But I saw God accomplish things

46:47
through her suffering.

46:50
And when I look at that, I go, would I

46:53
go if I had to do over again, would I

46:56
say, God, if I suddenly miraculously

46:58
somehow had the power,

47:01
you know,

47:02
I wouldn't because he wouldn't give it.

47:05
But my point is, if I did, would I take

47:08
away her suffering and my suffering for

47:11
those four years? And the answer is I

47:14
would not because our heavenly father

47:16
saw it and I saw the fruit of it. And I

47:20
know for all eternity, the payoff for

47:23
her um and for the glory of God will be

47:26
greater as a result of it.

Encouragement Through Books

47:29
Yeah, what a powerful story. and reading

47:32
your content, things like if God is

47:34
good. There's so many books that if

47:36
somebody is listening and they're

47:37
struggling with some of those questions

47:39
about why does evil exist, uh why is

47:41
there bad in the world? Why is my life

47:43
not going the way I want? Anything like

47:45
that. Uh, I would say that even though

47:49
there might not be a for sure answer in

47:51
those books, it might be some of the

47:53
most encouraging books that somebody

47:55
could read and will help them understand

47:58
what they're going through and be seen

48:00
or feel seen uh way more than they could

48:02
have ever imagined. So,

48:04
yeah,

48:05
thanks for saying that, Chris.

Rapid Fire Questions

48:07
Randy, I want to finish with 10 rapid

48:09
fire questions. Yeah.

48:10
Where there's no wrong answer, just the

48:12
first thing that comes to mind.

48:14
Okay. Who who's the first person you

48:16
think of when I say servant leadership?

48:19
[sighs]

48:20
Jerry Bridges.

48:22
Love it.

48:23
Knew him, spoke with him at conferences.

48:25
Loved the man. Modeled humility.

48:28
Uh, what's one of your favorite books

48:30
that's not your own?

48:32
Uh, The Knowledge of the Holy by Awtoer.

48:36
If Who's the number one author you most

48:39
recommend to people to check out other

48:41
than yourself?

48:42
John Piper. So good. Um, favorite thing

48:46
to do in your free time?

48:48
Snorkeling if if it's nearby. If there's

48:51
an ocean nearby, which isn't normally

48:54
the case, but just of things I love to

48:58
do, snorkeling. Um, also played tennis.

49:01
Um, other things as well, but yeah.

49:03
Wow. Is there any other surprising fact

49:06
about you?

49:08
Well, uh, I was a, uh, close friend of

49:12
Chuck Norris's, uh, spoke at his

49:14
funeral. Um, I'm going to be doing a

49:17
blog on him, but I deliberately have

49:19
been waiting because he's a very dear

49:21
friend, um, who came to me many years

49:23
ago, but that probably be something that

49:25
most people wouldn't know, but

Favorite Places and Future Writing

49:28
Wow. Uh, favorite place you've ever

49:31
been.

49:33
Wow.

49:37
Favorite could be defined in different

49:38
ways, but in terms of place that I've

49:42
been and always go back to uh is Maui.

49:46
Um because we have friends who have a

49:48
house there that have let us stay in for

49:50
many many years and uh going back there

49:54
again with a couple of my

49:57
uh grandkids and my daughter and

50:00
son-in-law uh in November. love Maui and

50:04
Nancy loved Maui and called it her happy

50:07
place. Her happy place. Now she's truly

50:10
in her happy place.

50:12
Uh I know you've written a lot of books

50:14
and I've read a ton of them. Uh if you

50:17
could think through one thing and you

50:19
might not actually write about it, but

50:20
you're like, "Hey, I wish I could write

50:22
about this one day in the future." What

50:23
would it be?

50:26
Um, I uh have a book uh that has been

50:30
going on for a long time in my mind that

50:33
I hesitate to say what it's about, but

50:35
let's just say it's something about

50:38
um uh God, who he is, the names he goes

50:43
by, um and what we can learn from those

50:47
names.

Advice and Humility

50:48
I love that. Uh best advice you've ever

50:51
received.

50:57
probably as a young pastor,

51:02
don't think you know it all. And I

51:05
wasn't being rebuked by the person who

51:06
said it to me, but they were warning me

51:08
because they were saying when they were

51:10
in their 20s, they thought they knew it

51:12
all. And I have,

51:15
not in a rebuking sort of way, but

51:17
shared that with young pastors since

51:19
then, where, oh my gosh, I look back at

51:22
some of the things that I said and did

51:24
as a young pastor, not the sinful

51:27
things, but the just dumb things, you

51:30
know, that I just, you know, uh, yeah.

51:34
So, just don't don't think you're

51:36
smarter than you are. And even now as an

51:38
old guy, I'm 72 now. I I know uh how far

51:44
I fall short. I'm leading uh a group

51:47
right now in a study of humility. Jerry

51:49
Bridg's book on humility, the blessing

51:51
of humility. And uh

51:57
Toer said one time, only the humble are

52:01
Satan. And I believe that's true.

52:04
You know who God is.

52:05
You know who you are.

52:07
There is no room for even the slightest

52:10
amount of pride.

Importance of Servant Leadership

52:12
All right. Well, on that note, final

52:14
question. Why do you think it's

52:16
important for people listening to care

52:18
about becoming better servant leaders?

52:21
Wow. Uh I think um

52:25
I have seen as most people have seen, I

52:28
saw it in my own church with a senior

52:30
pastor who was anything but a servant

52:33
leader

52:35
um who had to ultimately be let go by

52:38
the elders of the church.

52:40
It's an ugly ugly thing. And the other

52:43
thing I would say is and we all have the

52:46
capacity for that ugliness.

52:49
If it's not checked and balanced, if we

52:52
don't yield ourselves to the Holy

52:53
Spirit, if we don't become like Jesus is

52:57
shows himself to be in John 13, washing

53:00
the feet like only the lowliest servant

53:03
would do. And here he is, the creator of

53:07
the universe on his knees washing the

53:10
dirty feet of the disciples. By the way,

53:13
it wasn't just dirt that was on those

53:15
dirty feet in those days. They were

53:18
walking in manure, animal excrement was

53:21
on. I mean, it was like this is not a

53:23
pleasant job to wash somebody's feet and

53:27
Jesus did it for us. And I would just

53:28
say if you've seen the beautiful

53:33
effects of true servant leadership,

53:35
which I have,

53:37
again, Jerry Bridges being one example

53:39
of it, and then you see the horrific

53:43
results of the lack of servant

53:45
leadership, the prideful, demanding,

53:49
um, abusive sort of leader. Uh, you

53:52
know, how beautiful the one is and how

53:54
ugly the other is.

Closing Remarks

53:57
That's so good. Well, Randy, thank you

53:59
for joining us on the podcast. For

54:01
people listening, we're going to send

54:02
you uh access to where you can see um

54:06
Ry's book, his new book, and check out

54:08
all of his other books. They've been

54:10
some of the most influential books on my

54:11
life and my views of leadership. Uh so,

54:14
thank you.

54:15
Thank you, Chris.

54:16
Thank you for listening to this episode

54:18
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

54:21
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

54:23
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54:25
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54:31
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54:33
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54:34
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