00:00:00
I'm really talking about 40% of the

00:00:02
population

00:00:03
when I say those things because 60% of

00:00:06
the population are living paycheck to

00:00:08
paycheck.

00:00:16
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

00:00:18
we welcome Ron Blue, the founder of

00:00:20
Ronald Blue and Company. [music]

00:00:22
Ron started his firm in 1979 to help

00:00:24
people manage their money so they would

00:00:26
have more to give away. That firm is now

00:00:29
Blue Trust, managing more than $60

00:00:31
billion for clients who give away about

00:00:33
half a billion dollars a year. He also

00:00:36
co-founded the National Christian

00:00:38
Foundation, which gave away $3.5 billion

00:00:41
last year, and founded Kingdom Advisers,

00:00:43
which has trained thousands of advisers

00:00:45
in biblical financial wisdom. Join us as

00:00:48
Ron shares the five principles he gives

00:00:50
for managing money, why contentment is a

00:00:52
choice rather than an amount, [music]

00:00:54
and how to pass wealth to your children

00:00:56
without passing entitlement.

00:00:58
Also, before we dive in, make sure to

00:01:00
give this episode a like and subscribe

00:01:02
or follow the show so you don't miss the

00:01:04
next conversation.

00:01:07
Ron, welcome to the Servant Leadership

00:01:09
Podcast. Thank you for being here.

00:01:11
I'm delighted, Chris. Looking forward to

00:01:12
it very much.

00:01:15
This is really exciting. Uh, a lot of

00:01:17
people when they think of you, they

00:01:19
think of money and financial advising.

00:01:22
Uh, take it back before you got into

00:01:24
financial advising. You were doing stuff

00:01:25
in the CPA world. Talk about that and

00:01:28
how you transitioned into later what

00:01:31
became financial advising.

00:01:34
Well, I when I left Indiana University,

00:01:36
I had in 1967, I had an MBA degree and

00:01:40
uh I I was I passed the CPA exam. So, I

00:01:44
went to work in New York uh on Wall

00:01:46
Street with what's now KPMG

00:01:49
and uh worked for them for three years

00:01:53
in New York, Dallas, and San Francisco.

00:01:55
And then I started a CPA firm

00:01:58
uh in 1970 in Indianapolis

00:02:01
uh with three uh others that had been in

00:02:04
the MBA program with me. Um but uh

00:02:10
decided after about seven years through

00:02:12
a whole series of things to go full-time

00:02:14
into ministry.

00:02:17
And so I left the CPA firm and moved

00:02:21
from Indianapolis to Atlanta. Had a wife

00:02:24
and four children at the time. Oldest

00:02:27
was 10. And she got pregnant sort of

00:02:31
removed and a hard pregnancy and a hard

00:02:34
baby. and I was in the ministry and my

00:02:38
job was to travel to Africa.

00:02:41
So I traveled to Africa 10 times

00:02:46
and uh if now when I look back on it

00:02:49
Chris this was not by design but I saw

00:02:53
the financial world from Wall Street

00:02:55
perspective.

00:02:57
Then I had a local CPA firm which I say

00:03:00
I saw the world from a main street uh

00:03:05
perspective. Uh and then I went into

00:03:08
ministry and I thought the third world

00:03:10
and the financial perspective there.

00:03:14
uh and that uh that uh was 12 years

00:03:18
after I had left graduate school and um

00:03:22
I saw a need

00:03:25
uh for

00:03:27
uh financial

00:03:29
for finances for ministries and I was

00:03:32
particularly working with one ministry

00:03:34
campus crusade which is now crew and

00:03:38
it it seemed to me having worked in Wall

00:03:41
Street and Main Street there was plenty

00:03:42
of money

00:03:44
uh but it wasn't being deployed

00:03:46
necessarily to where the great need was

00:03:50
you when you see the poverty of the

00:03:51
third world at that particular time. Uh

00:03:54
and I had a friend uh mentor type that

00:03:58
uh wanted me to look at his finances to

00:04:00
see how he was doing. He was a pastor or

00:04:02
a seminary professor

00:04:04
which I did and I was able to say uh to

00:04:07
him, you know what, Ari, you're doing

00:04:10
just fine. [laughter]

00:04:12
Yeah. And that's the important thing

00:04:14
there

00:04:16
uh is that I think that the one question

00:04:19
that everybody wants to answer

00:04:22
when it comes to money, how am I doing?

00:04:27
And and that's what his question was.

00:04:29
How am I doing? He wasn't he wasn't

00:04:32
interested in a he it wasn't an

00:04:34
investment question. It wasn't a tax

00:04:35
question. It was a broad question of how

00:04:38
am I doing?

00:04:40
And

00:04:42
uh I had been teaching uh with this

00:04:44
ministry that I was involved with

00:04:46
decision-making

00:04:48
uh as a process

00:04:51
and I realized that the process really

00:04:56
worked in the financial world in terms

00:04:58
of making decisions.

00:05:01
And basically the the

00:05:05
uh the sum of that process was that most

00:05:08
people when they're making any kind of

00:05:11
decision they call they fall into traps

00:05:14
if you will. Not because they're bad

00:05:17
people but they they once one trap that

00:05:20
they fall into is a binary trap.

00:05:23
And the binary trap says should I do

00:05:25
this or not?

00:05:28
And you've only got two alternatives.

00:05:31
uh and your decision can never be any

00:05:33
better than your best alternative. So,

00:05:35
you've limited yourself to this or not

00:05:39
uh or this car or that car or this house

00:05:41
or that house. And the real question is

00:05:44
what type of uh house are we looking

00:05:47
for? What what are the characteristics

00:05:48
of that house? Uh for example, when it

00:05:52
comes to money and investments, for

00:05:54
example, people say, should I make this

00:05:56
investment

00:05:58
or not? and they've limited themselves

00:06:00
to that investment instead of kind of

00:06:03
raising it up to 30,000 and say what are

00:06:05
my investment objectives. So I I had a

00:06:08
holistic approach to money

00:06:11
and uh also I had learned uh how to

00:06:15
build a timebased business

00:06:19
and that was significant because at the

00:06:21
time 1979 and 80 uh almost all uh

00:06:26
financial advice was given by investment

00:06:28
advisors or insurance agents.

00:06:32
uh financial planning uh was beginning

00:06:36
to be talked about but it was not a

00:06:38
discipline

00:06:40
and uh what I was doing it turned out it

00:06:44
was financial planning but it wasn't

00:06:46
necessarily called that uh because it

00:06:48
that industry didn't exist but I knew

00:06:52
how to build a timebased business so I

00:06:54
could sell advice as opposed to product

00:06:58
and that allowed me uh a a great freedom

00:07:03
in terms of marketing because I wasn't I

00:07:06
wasn't marketing a product. I was

00:07:08
marketing uh good financial thinking and

00:07:11
decision making. And the first client

00:07:14
that I had

00:07:16
uh I I developed a financial plan for

00:07:20
him to give a million dollars to a

00:07:22
ministry.

00:07:25
Wow. And he when he first approached me

00:07:29
uh he I said 'What's your income and he

00:07:31
said 82,000. I said what's your net

00:07:33
worth? And he said through three or

00:07:35
400,000 probably. But he wanted to give

00:07:38
a million dollars.

00:07:40
Yeah. And when I looked at his finances,

00:07:43
he had a lot more than what he thought

00:07:45
because most people don't have a need to

00:07:47
draw up a balance sheet or net worth

00:07:49
statement unless they're getting a loan.

00:07:52
and

00:07:54
uh he had a lot more property. So what

00:07:56
we did is we gave away $200,000 worth of

00:08:00
property a year for five years

00:08:03
and this was when tax brackets tax rates

00:08:06
were as high as 70%.

00:08:09
So he was saving when he gave that

00:08:12
property. It didn't cost him anything

00:08:14
out of pocket,

00:08:16
but he got a huge tax deduction which

00:08:19
created lower taxes and therefore uh

00:08:22
more cash flow.

00:08:24
So the fact of giving created cash flow

00:08:27
which allowed him to do other things and

00:08:30
over five years he gave away a million

00:08:32
dollars.

00:08:33
Wow, [laughter]

00:08:34
that's awesome.

00:08:36
And uh uh the the head of that ministry

00:08:40
uh crew uh they said, "You need to come

00:08:42
on staff and help us with our major

00:08:44
donors." [laughter]

00:08:47
And I said, "I think I can do more for

00:08:49
you off staff than I can on staff

00:08:51
because I would lose my objectivity if I

00:08:54
came to staff." And so they put me in

00:08:56
front of all of their donors,

00:08:58
their major donors. And my my value

00:09:03
proposition, my pitch was if you want to

00:09:05
give away a million dollars, I can help

00:09:07
you do that.

00:09:09
Wow.

00:09:11
And so people say, "How did you build

00:09:12
the business?" And I said, "I answered

00:09:15
the phone." [laughter]

00:09:18
Wow.

00:09:19
So it's really unique. Chris, I uh you

00:09:23
know, I really felt like I was doing

00:09:24
what God wanted me to do and he was I

00:09:28
looked at and said he's bringing me the

00:09:30
business and and so forth. And so that

00:09:33
business uh today is they manage 60some

00:09:39
billion dollars worth of work

00:09:41
investments. They've got

00:09:45
um 500 employees

00:09:47
uh about 20 offices around the country

00:09:50
and their clients uh give away about a

00:09:53
half a billion a year. Uh and that's

00:09:56
kind of how they measure their success

00:09:59
by giving.

00:10:01
So

00:10:01
that's amazing.

00:10:02
Yeah. You've helped a lot of people

00:10:04
think through the questions of how am I

00:10:08
doing and how much is enough and how

00:10:11
much should I give

00:10:13
for people listening how do they even

00:10:15
start thinking about how they're doing

00:10:18
how much they should be giving how much

00:10:19
is enough like what's the process for

00:10:21
them to actually walk through

00:10:24
well the uh first proc first step of the

00:10:27
process is kind of to uh say what are my

00:10:30
objectives or what are what are thinking

00:10:33
what what makes sense. Uh rather than

00:10:36
thinking of how, it's why.

00:10:40
So if you start with the why question,

00:10:44
you're going to then flow easily into

00:10:46
the how question,

00:10:49
but our culture kind of uh pushes us

00:10:52
towards the how as opposed to the why.

00:10:57
Um, and I I look at it almost like an

00:11:00
iceberg where you got 80% of the iceberg

00:11:03
below the water, 20% above. The 20%

00:11:05
above is the how, the 80% is the why.

00:11:10
So, uh, and that's where um, for people

00:11:15
who have some uh, wealth uh, they really

00:11:18
need a facilitator to ask them those

00:11:21
questions. They don't know necessarily

00:11:23
the questions to ask themselves.

00:11:26
Uh I one of my first clients was a heart

00:11:28
surgeon and he was living in a

00:11:31
million-dollar home, beautiful home. And

00:11:35
uh he said uh is it okay for a Christian

00:11:38
to live in a million-dollar home?

00:11:42
[laughter]

00:11:44
And

00:11:45
uh I've learned that the best way to

00:11:48
answer a question is to ask a question.

00:11:51
[laughter]

00:11:53
So I said, "Well, what do you think God

00:11:56
would have you do?"

00:11:59
And he said, "I don't know." And I said,

00:12:02
"Well, how much time are you spending

00:12:03
asking him?" He said, "None." I said,

00:12:06
"Well, then that's our first step."

00:12:09
[laughter] I said, "I can't answer that

00:12:10
question because I'm not God."

00:12:13
Uh and what happened was that he ended

00:12:17
up

00:12:19
uh giving away millions of dollars uh

00:12:22
and becoming a real uh leader nationally

00:12:26
in ministries. He was president of

00:12:28
several uh or CE or chairman the board

00:12:31
of several uh ministries, international

00:12:35
ministries.

00:12:37
So money's just a reflection of values.

00:12:41
Uh,

00:12:43
and I I believe that if I can look at

00:12:46
somebody's checkbook and credit card

00:12:48
statement, I can tell them what they

00:12:50
value and what they believe.

00:12:53
Um, and that's not a criticism. That's

00:12:56
uh it's just an objective picture

00:13:00
uh of of where what you value. Uh

00:13:05
so,

00:13:07
you know, I I u

00:13:11
I was in well we I I lived I grew up in

00:13:13
Indiana. I went to Indiana University

00:13:16
and Judy and I moved back to uh

00:13:19
Bloomington, Indiana about six years

00:13:21
ago.

00:13:23
And I said, "How do you get basketball

00:13:25
tickets?"

00:13:27
[laughter]

00:13:29
And they said, "Well, it depends on how

00:13:31
much money you want to spend."

00:13:34
[laughter]

00:13:35
So you could look and say, "Okay, I

00:13:37
spent so much money. I valued those

00:13:40
tickets, if you will, which was our

00:13:42
entertainment." Now, I should have been

00:13:44
looking at football.

00:13:46
Yeah. [laughter]

00:13:49
Instead of basketball, but um

00:13:51
Well, it's interesting. You you've seen

00:13:53
a lot of people's finances, more than

00:13:55
most people that I've ever met,

00:13:57
probably. Um something that's

00:14:00
interesting is when you first meet with

00:14:01
somebody, they come to you with a

00:14:03
question. And in your mind, I'm

00:14:06
wondering if you already have an endgame

00:14:08
in mind. You're like, "This is what I

00:14:10
think this person really needs to know

00:14:12
and understand." And I know you bring in

00:14:14
a lot of scripture and have done a lot

00:14:15
of stuff. And are you asking the

00:14:17
questions of how do I get them to where

00:14:18
I think they need to be, or does it all

00:14:21
start from the question of here's what

00:14:23
they're saying is their why, help them

00:14:25
get to that direction? And it's so

00:14:27
different for a lot of people. Like, how

00:14:28
do you balance the two of those things?

00:14:30
because you might have objectively great

00:14:32
opinions based on everything you've seen

00:14:34
work over the years.

00:14:36
Well, that's true, but I I haven't it's

00:14:39
very clear in my mind that it's not my

00:14:42
decision

00:14:44
that's being talked about. It's their

00:14:46
decision that's being talked about. So,

00:14:48
my focus is finding out what they think,

00:14:51
what they believe, what they value, uh

00:14:54
why. Trying to find the why uh question,

00:14:58
answer to the why question.

00:15:00
before I could ever give them any

00:15:02
advice. Uh because everybody's situation

00:15:06
is unique. I mean literally everybody.

00:15:09
So there's not a there are principles to

00:15:13
follow and there's processes to follow

00:15:15
and there's beliefs to have but the the

00:15:18
final decision and how decisions are

00:15:20
made is unique to everybody.

00:15:25
For example,

00:15:27
where did the wealth come from?

00:15:29
that will really uh bias the thinking

00:15:34
positively or negatively. But if it's

00:15:36
entrepreneurial wealth, that's one

00:15:38
thing. If it's inherited wealth, it's

00:15:41
another thing. If it's salaried wealth

00:15:44
or vocational wealth, that's something

00:15:47
else. Now, I'm talking about I'm really

00:15:50
talking about 40% of the population

00:15:53
when I say those things because 60% of

00:15:56
the population are living paycheck to

00:15:58
paycheck.

00:16:00
Uh or uh just barely making it. Um we we

00:16:07
kind of categorize people and those that

00:16:10
are struggling, they're not even making

00:16:13
a paycheck to paycheck. And that's a big

00:16:16
percentage of the population. And so

00:16:18
what that leads then into really

00:16:20
consumer debt to live

00:16:22
and that creates uh real issues uh in

00:16:26
terms of paying it back and the interest

00:16:28
rates that you pay on uh credit card

00:16:31
debt. And the next level is those that

00:16:34
are uh surviving meaning that they're

00:16:37
they're making a paycheck to paycheck

00:16:39
but it's Friday to Friday if you will.

00:16:42
Mhm.

00:16:42
Uh and then the third level are people

00:16:45
that are I would call stable in their

00:16:48
finances and they're people that

00:16:51
uh have a cash margin.

00:16:56
Uh they they're not spending everything

00:16:58
that they're earning. Therefore, they

00:17:00
have uh a margin or liquidity.

00:17:04
And that there those people can stand

00:17:07
the emergencies when they come because

00:17:09
they've prepared for them. M

00:17:12
uh and then you get people that are uh

00:17:14
really secure and they t typically tend

00:17:18
to be a little bit later in life, but

00:17:20
they've met all their long-term goals.

00:17:22
They've educated their kids. They bought

00:17:24
that second home if they wanted or

00:17:26
they're driving the cars they want to

00:17:28
drive. Uh and they're secure. Uh they're

00:17:32
putting money under retirement plan

00:17:34
probably. And then you get those that

00:17:38
have a surplus.

00:17:40
In other words, they can't spend

00:17:41
everything they make. U

00:17:44
and u and and that over the last I would

00:17:49
say oh 15 years or so has really

00:17:53
exploded.

00:17:55
Um

00:17:56
I mean we've got we have we have wealth

00:17:59
now and this country culture is the

00:18:02
wealthiest it's ever been on earth.

00:18:06
And interestingly enough,

00:18:10
it's if if money were the answer to

00:18:14
happiness and contentment and security,

00:18:18
we would be living in the most happy,

00:18:20
content, secure culture uh in the world.

00:18:24
But we're not.

00:18:26
And

00:18:28
uh I the reason is that uh I can tell

00:18:34
you whether you're financially

00:18:36
independent or not. I can tell you

00:18:38
you're never going to run out of money.

00:18:41
But there's never a feeling associated

00:18:44
with that. You can't feel financial

00:18:45
independence.

00:18:47
You can know it, but you can't feel it.

00:18:49
But what you can feel is contentment.

00:18:53
And contentment is more a choice of is

00:18:57
more a choice than an amount of money.

00:19:02
It's interesting because I feel like

00:19:04
most people I talk to are not content

00:19:08
with whatever amount of money they have.

00:19:10
So explain that difference. How it's

00:19:13
contentment isn't related to an amount

00:19:16
of money.

00:19:17
Uh well, contentment

00:19:20
uh that says basically this

00:19:25
um I've uh I've got what I need

00:19:30
and more is not going to change my

00:19:33
situation.

00:19:35
Um and I know that there's billions of

00:19:40
dollars being spent every day attempting

00:19:42
to make me discontent.

00:19:45
That's called advertising. And it says,

00:19:47
"You need this." And so if I'm content,

00:19:50
I can say, "Who are you kidding?

00:19:54
I don't need that." [laughter]

00:19:56
You know, it might be nice to have and

00:19:58
maybe someday I would want it, but I

00:20:00
don't have to have it in order to feel

00:20:03
good about myself.

00:20:05
U and so that and so it's far more

00:20:09
important to be content than it is to be

00:20:11
wealthy, quite frankly.

00:20:13
Uh I I and I wrote a book and on called

00:20:19
splitting errors and it was about how do

00:20:21
you make the wealth transfer decisions

00:20:24
if you got a lot of money

00:20:27
to uh to your uh to your heirs.

00:20:32
And uh and what is important there is

00:20:38
that once again you ask the right

00:20:41
questions.

00:20:43
So my questions to to people when it

00:20:46
comes to to wealth is if you leave money

00:20:49
to

00:20:51
name the child,

00:20:53
what's the worst thing that can happen?

00:20:57
And secondly, how serious is that? And

00:21:02
thirdly, how likely is it to occur?

00:21:06
So, and as an illustration, I have we

00:21:10
have five children and when Judy and I

00:21:12
were going through this process a long

00:21:14
time ago now, my all of my kids are

00:21:17
they've got grown grandkids of ours.

00:21:20
I've even got great grandkids. So, my

00:21:24
wife says they're all great. I said,

00:21:25
"No, they're not." [laughter]

00:21:31
But we had we had one daughter that had

00:21:34
married uh a young man uh from uh from

00:21:39
Alabama. She had met him uh at Auburn.

00:21:43
And he was a wonderful person, but he

00:21:47
had come out of a home where

00:21:50
uh they lived kind of paycheck to

00:21:52
paycheck. They lived in a small home in

00:21:54
uh in al in Alabama. Uh but his dad

00:21:58
taught him one thing. He said it's a

00:22:01
man's responsibility to provide for his

00:22:03
family. And he had two boys and he drove

00:22:07
that into into their minds. And so when

00:22:11
Judy and I asked the question, what

00:22:12
would happen if we left a large amount

00:22:14
of money to them?

00:22:17
Well, it would have taken away

00:22:20
uh his need and ability to provide which

00:22:24
was a huge value to him.

00:22:28
So we said that that's a really serious

00:22:30
consequence. Would you want to do that

00:22:34
uh to that family to your daughter and

00:22:37
son-in-law and the children that they

00:22:39
have? Uh the need to provide by the

00:22:43
father was really strong and was really

00:22:46
positive.

00:22:47
Uh so our answer to the question was it

00:22:50
would it would be a very serious thing

00:22:52
if we left a lot of money to them.

00:22:55
today he's president of a bank. Okay,

00:22:58
it's 25 years later. Uh

00:23:02
we wouldn't even be asking that question

00:23:04
today relative to them. So in thinking

00:23:07
about transferring wealth, it's it

00:23:10
changes over time. M

00:23:13
uh and people that have wealth

00:23:17
uh

00:23:18
don't necessarily realize that they

00:23:20
really need to take a look at how

00:23:22
they're doing uh on a regular basis in

00:23:25
terms of their planning.

00:23:28
So we're kind of wandering all over. I

00:23:31
think on that topic, I don't know if

00:23:33
this is a a quote that you have said,

00:23:35
but I've heard you talk in the past

00:23:37
about something to these lines where if

00:23:39
you love your children equally, you

00:23:41
would treat them unequally when it comes

00:23:43
to that conversation. Uh when you think

00:23:47
through it, you've guided a lot of

00:23:48
families in that generational wealth

00:23:50
transfer. Uh what are the the key

00:23:53
pitfalls that you see people bump into

00:23:56
that they should be aware of even

00:23:58
thinking about their own kids? Well, I I

00:24:00
don't say that they should be treated

00:24:02
unequally. I say that they should be if

00:24:05
you love them equally, you will treat

00:24:07
them uniquely.

00:24:10
Good clarification.

00:24:12
Yeah. And

00:24:14
it um because they're different. I mean,

00:24:17
with five children

00:24:19
that we had and when they're married,

00:24:23
they that changes everything.

00:24:26
Um and as they live their life uh they

00:24:30
learn uh what they value and how to uh

00:24:34
live their life. And so now uh if we

00:24:38
left money to our children

00:24:42
uh our children are already doing okay.

00:24:45
Uh so anything we left to them would

00:24:49
really impact the third generation and

00:24:51
the fourth generation

00:24:53
as opposed to the second generation. And

00:24:56
the problem in the third and the fourth

00:24:58
generation

00:25:00
uh is that u they haven't seen or

00:25:05
experienced where that money came from,

00:25:07
where that wealth came from. Um and so

00:25:11
they c can they don't have to but they

00:25:14
could uh develop a sense of entitlement.

00:25:19
Uh and that's really definitely for uh

00:25:23
life to have that entitlement mentality.

00:25:26
That's why you come back to can I be

00:25:29
content with where I am? And if they can

00:25:32
be content with where they are

00:25:34
uh in the third and the fourth

00:25:37
generation

00:25:39
uh which has to come from the parents

00:25:42
uh then you can pass off wealth to

00:25:46
people that are that that is not going

00:25:49
to change their uh thinking.

00:25:53
It may change their lifestyle a bit but

00:25:55
it's not going to change their thinking

00:25:57
uh and their value system. That's what

00:26:00
you're really looking for. I in fact I

00:26:01
heard a I was at a seminar years ago now

00:26:06
on generosity and there was a

00:26:08
businessman who was being interviewed

00:26:11
along with his adult daughter

00:26:14
and he had built 700 churches in India.

00:26:18
He had a lot of wealth and he had built

00:26:20
700 churches in India.

00:26:23
um

00:26:24
and uh and had terrific impact of

00:26:28
obviously in in that uh area of the

00:26:32
world. Um and so so he gave his

00:26:37
testimony and then uh they opened it up

00:26:40
for questions and answers. And one of

00:26:42
the questions that came out of the

00:26:43
audience was to the daughter

00:26:47
and and the question was what do you

00:26:50
think about dad your dad giving away

00:26:52
your inheritance?

00:26:54
[laughter]

00:26:58
And she had the absolute perfect answer.

00:27:01
She said, "I've never thought of it as

00:27:03
mine."

00:27:06
So when you say love your children

00:27:08
equally and treat them equally, the

00:27:11
father could be real content in passing

00:27:13
that that on to her uh because of her

00:27:17
attit her attitude and belief system.

00:27:20
But that that was he obviously had done

00:27:23
a good job of raising that daughter

00:27:26
to give that answer.

00:27:28
One of the things that's really

00:27:30
interesting looking back at your career,

00:27:33
you have been a pioneer in so many

00:27:35
different things and a lot of it comes

00:27:37
from what the Lord is teaching you from

00:27:40
hearing you talk about it. Uh I know

00:27:42
you've done stuff with NCF. You started

00:27:44
Kingdom Advisors. Like you did a lot

00:27:47
based on what it felt like God was

00:27:49
continuing to teach you. talk about what

00:27:52
you started to do after you had

00:27:54
experienced some success uh with Ron

00:27:58
Blue and Co.

00:28:00
Well, um it's easier now to look back

00:28:05
and and see some things. Um

00:28:09
but one of the things that

00:28:12
um that I did, well, I a couple of

00:28:15
things that were essential. Uh, one is I

00:28:20
I I was mentored to make it a practice

00:28:24
to spend some time every day

00:28:27
uh reading God's word

00:28:30
uh and asking the question, how does

00:28:32
this apply to me today?

00:28:35
So I uh and and I journaled a lot of

00:28:39
that. I journal almost every day. So,

00:28:44
and what I tell advisors, I say, if

00:28:46
you're not spending time asking God

00:28:49
these questions, you don't have anything

00:28:51
to bring to your clients,

00:28:54
and you can't take a client someplace

00:28:56
that you haven't been yet.

00:28:59
So, how did I do what I did? I tried to

00:29:02
listen to what God was telling me. And I

00:29:04
found that many times it was either a

00:29:08
comment that was made to me during the

00:29:10
day or perhaps it was a Bible verse that

00:29:13
at particular application on that

00:29:15
particular day and and what I found

00:29:18
Chris was that there's a really big

00:29:22
difference between knowledge and wisdom.

00:29:26
U a lot of people have knowledge.

00:29:30
Uh and knowledge is good of course but

00:29:34
wisdom takes it one step further and it

00:29:38
says

00:29:40
what is the real impact of this decision

00:29:44
on this family or person or whatever it

00:29:46
is and you're thinking their outcomes

00:29:50
to the decision based upon intangibles.

00:29:56
Um

00:29:57
I uh I mean I had so many experiences

00:30:01
where

00:30:03
uh I would I would ask God for wisdom

00:30:06
because he said to ask for wisdom and I

00:30:09
would give counsel that I never thought

00:30:11
of.

00:30:12
Yeah.

00:30:13
So I knew it wasn't of me.

00:30:17
And um so how did I do what I did? Well,

00:30:21
I tried to listen to what God would have

00:30:24
me to do and do it. Now, my my

00:30:28
personality, you know, God created us

00:30:30
all uniquely also. And

00:30:34
uh I know that he gave me kind of a

00:30:38
sense of uh I would be more strategic

00:30:41
oriented, future oriented,

00:30:43
visionoriented.

00:30:45
Um and not everybody has a vision. M

00:30:49
somebody asked me one time they they

00:30:52
said you know you've been an

00:30:54
entrepreneur

00:30:56
uh what's the one thing you've learned

00:30:58
about being an entrepreneur

00:31:00
and uh I said well it takes 10 years

00:31:04
okay

00:31:06
and in the interim people are going to

00:31:08
think you're crazy

00:31:10
and the reason for that is because you

00:31:13
see something that nobody else sees

00:31:15
and you're headed towards something that

00:31:17
people don't Okay. So, I saw

00:31:20
uh the need for uh Christians to have

00:31:27
biblically based financial advice. One,

00:31:30
and I also learned very early that that

00:31:33
the Bible spoke more about money than

00:31:35
any other topic.

00:31:38
And

00:31:40
uh it had what we would today call

00:31:42
common sense throughout.

00:31:46
So,

00:31:48
uh, I was testifying before Congress,

00:31:50
uh, in the early 90s and the senator

00:31:54
said, "What would you tell the American

00:31:55
family?" And I said, "Senator, I would

00:31:56
tell him this. Number one, spend less

00:32:00
than you're

00:32:02
number two, build some liquidity or

00:32:04
margin into your financial situation

00:32:07
because the emergencies will come."

00:32:10
I said third u uh minimize debt or have

00:32:15
no debt because debt is the first call

00:32:19
on future income.

00:32:21
Uh and it will be your first priority

00:32:24
once you take it. The banker is the one

00:32:26
person that's not going to give you the

00:32:28
grace uh very often. And I said, fourth,

00:32:34
set long-term goals so that you

00:32:36
prioritize your spending between the

00:32:38
short term and the long term. Because if

00:32:40
you spend it in the short term, you

00:32:42
can't have it in the long term. All

00:32:44
that's just common sense and it makes

00:32:46
sense and and you don't have to be a

00:32:49
Christian or to to understand that, but

00:32:53
it happens to be throughout the Bible.

00:32:57
And then the fifth thing is to give

00:33:00
generously. And the reason for giving is

00:33:04
not because God needs the money, but

00:33:07
it's because you need to break the power

00:33:10
of money in your life.

00:33:12
Yeah.

00:33:13
And the only real way to do that is to

00:33:15
give.

00:33:16
So there's only five things you have to

00:33:18
master to manage your money. Uh and the

00:33:23
first one begins with if you don't live

00:33:25
within your income, you can't do any of

00:33:28
the others.

00:33:30
uh basically so that's that's the core

00:33:34
to uh financial success is living within

00:33:37
your income. Uh, and

00:33:42
uh, so when I learned kind of when I s

00:33:46
Oh, what happened when I gave when I

00:33:48
said that to the senator, uh, he picked

00:33:51
up his pencil and he wrote them down and

00:33:53
then he repeated them back to me and he

00:33:56
said, "It seems to me that that work at

00:33:57
any UNC level." And I said, "You're

00:34:00
right, Senator, including the United

00:34:02
States governor government

00:34:05
because principles transcend situations.

00:34:10
It transcend I mean the principles are

00:34:12
the same for a family or a business or a

00:34:14
government or an individual. They don't

00:34:17
change. The principles are principles.

00:34:20
And once I had knew I knew that

00:34:25
unequivocally, then it's a lot easier to

00:34:27
give advice also because you know that

00:34:30
this works.

00:34:32
Um

00:34:33
so um in fact I was talking to a pastor

00:34:38
one time and and he said uh I'm going to

00:34:40
give a series of messages on generosity.

00:34:44
He said how do I talk to an audience

00:34:47
that's diverse? He said, "I've got

00:34:49
millionaires sitting out there

00:34:52
alongside students deeply in debt."

00:34:57
And so, uh, I said standing there and I

00:35:00
said, "Lord, what do I say?" And God

00:35:02
gave me a question to ask him. And I

00:35:04
said, "St." I said, "When you give a

00:35:07
series on marriage,

00:35:10
do you change it because of the

00:35:11
diversity of the audience?"

00:35:15
And he said, "Well, no."

00:35:17
And I said, 'Th that's because you teach

00:35:19
principles, and principles transcend

00:35:22
situations.

00:35:24
And I said, 'There's more written in the

00:35:26
Bible about money than any other topic.

00:35:28
There's over 2,300 verses dealing with

00:35:30
money. And I said, I bet you know more

00:35:33
about money and money management than

00:35:35
90% of the wealth advisors in this

00:35:37
country,

00:35:39
but I think you probably don't know what

00:35:40
you know.

00:35:42
And uh that led to us developing kind of

00:35:46
a one-page I to I was getting ready to

00:35:48
speak to a group of pastors and I told

00:35:51
my staff I said I want on one page

00:35:54
everything I know about biblically based

00:35:58
finance that I could show a pastor and

00:36:00
say this is what you know

00:36:04
and when you you know the Bible talks

00:36:06
about the ant that save for the future.

00:36:10
In other words, they had to live within

00:36:12
their income in order to have something.

00:36:15
The Bible talks a lot about generosity,

00:36:18
not

00:36:20
uh uh because it's the competitor for

00:36:24
the heart.

00:36:27
And and so it's not about making money,

00:36:30
losing money, or whatever. It's about

00:36:32
worshiping money and thinking that money

00:36:35
can uh frankly take the place of God

00:36:39
because I can do whatever I want when I

00:36:41
have money. Uh and the Bible talks about

00:36:44
debt. It says the borrower becomes the

00:36:47
lender slave. That's been true for all

00:36:49
of history.

00:36:51
Okay. [laughter]

00:36:53
Uh

00:36:54
and even Jesus talked about money a lot.

00:36:57
So

00:36:58
yeah,

00:37:00
something I'm curious about thinking

00:37:02
about a passage that you hear a lot uh

00:37:04
as maybe a converse view to what you're

00:37:07
saying, but I know you've addressed this

00:37:08
before, too, is when in the Bible they

00:37:11
talk about don't worry about tomorrow uh

00:37:14
for the Lord provides. How do you help

00:37:16
people kind of balance there's so many

00:37:19
different things with so many different

00:37:20
contexts that as they read scripture,

00:37:22
how to actually listen to what God is

00:37:24
trying to teach them in it?

00:37:27
That's that's a really good question and

00:37:30
um it's it it's what makes the the Bible

00:37:35
kind of so

00:37:37
uh real and practical is because it

00:37:40
understands that there are just a whole

00:37:41
bunch of different situations. So the

00:37:44
Bible uh says a man is worse than an

00:37:47
infidel if he doesn't provide for his

00:37:49
family.

00:37:51
uh it also talks about uh hoarding and

00:37:55
and worshiping money. So how do I

00:38:01
provide for my family and not worship

00:38:04
money?

00:38:05
Uh and the answer to that is to

00:38:08
understand where it all comes from

00:38:10
anyway. Uh, one and two,

00:38:14
uh,

00:38:17
as far as I know, everybody has left it

00:38:19
at some point when they died.

00:38:23
[laughter]

00:38:24
It's that's that's it.

00:38:27
You're done. Um, and I I I tell you

00:38:31
that, Chris, probably the greatest joy

00:38:32
I've had is is helping people give and

00:38:37
experience the joy of giving.

00:38:41
uh that really frees your heart

00:38:46
uh when you do that. I uh I believe a

00:38:49
lot in giving and not worrying about the

00:38:52
tax consequences of the giving. Mhm.

00:38:55
In other words, giving cash sometimes

00:38:58
and

00:39:00
my wife and I through uh we were at my

00:39:05
wife was at a gas station and she was

00:39:08
buying a Coke and standing in line and

00:39:10
there was a small girl in front of her

00:39:13
who said, "I want $7 of gas on pump so

00:39:17
and so." And this was in in the early

00:39:20
evening.

00:39:22
And Judy thought, "That is really weird.

00:39:26
$7 worth of gas."

00:39:28
Then so she followed the girl out to uh

00:39:32
the van. Turns out it was a woman that

00:39:35
had been abused. She had her two kids

00:39:37
with her. She had left

00:39:40
uh

00:39:42
uh in the middle of the night

00:39:45
uh taken everything that she owned with

00:39:47
her in the van and they only had $7.

00:39:51
That was it.

00:39:53
So, u Judy of course gave her some money

00:39:57
and then we helped her get into a

00:40:00
shelter. Um, and she was a a a lady that

00:40:05
had been raised in the inner city and

00:40:07
didn't know anything about had never

00:40:09
been taught skills

00:40:11
uh of anything. All she saw was a drug

00:40:14
culture that was around her. and but she

00:40:18
was going she was bound determined to

00:40:21
raise those kids and she over the years

00:40:25
educated herself um and is now has a

00:40:29
full-time job her her kids uh we got a

00:40:32
picture a couple weeks ago of her son

00:40:34
who's playing basketball and his

00:40:36
basketball uniform and uh we supported

00:40:40
her not 100% but significantly for years

00:40:46
and got more joy out of that giving

00:40:50
than a lot of the giving that we do

00:40:53
because you could see the immediate

00:40:55
impact. Uh and we were dealing with

00:40:58
someone who was sincerely trying to get

00:41:01
better.

00:41:04
So

00:41:05
u that's that's been one of the great

00:41:07
joys uh in terms of our giving life.

00:41:11
Yeah.

00:41:13
I I love just hearing about your giving

00:41:15
experiences and how you've encouraged

00:41:17
that uh in other people when when you

00:41:20
left Ron Blue back a while ago. Uh you

00:41:26
continue to start these things that then

00:41:28
you would hand off to people and it

00:41:30
seems so counterintuitive to me that you

00:41:33
would focus so much on scaling something

00:41:35
to the size that you got them to be and

00:41:37
then to hand it off to somebody else and

00:41:38
move to the next thing. especially

00:41:40
because I know you believe in all the

00:41:41
stuff you've done.

00:41:42
Um,

00:41:44
talk about that experience of scaling

00:41:46
something and how you focused on scaling

00:41:48
it, but then realizing, hey, this isn't

00:41:50
mine to steward anymore or to run. I

00:41:53
want to hand this off to somebody and

00:41:54
move to the next thing.

00:41:57
Uh, well, it was always u in response

00:42:03
uh to seeing something that was perhaps

00:42:06
needed.

00:42:08
So my original uh vision

00:42:12
uh when I started Ronald Bluen Company

00:42:14
was to help Christians plan and manage

00:42:16
their money so they'd have more to give

00:42:17
away.

00:42:19
Okay, that was that was the mission. And

00:42:22
here's what I found. I found that there

00:42:25
were a lot of people that as I built the

00:42:27
company

00:42:28
that really resonated with that mission.

00:42:32
And so they joined the company

00:42:35
uh to fulfill their desire to be a part

00:42:38
of that mission.

00:42:41
And uh so I would say that most of the

00:42:45
people that I hired, especially those

00:42:47
that were dealing with clients, it was a

00:42:49
calling is more more so than a job.

00:42:53
So,

00:42:55
uh, when I look back over my life,

00:43:00
and I didn't realize this until much

00:43:03
later as I looked back, but, uh, I was

00:43:07
much more of a uh, visionary than I was

00:43:10
a manager.

00:43:12
U, and people said you're you that I was

00:43:15
a good delegator. I said, "No, I was an

00:43:17
abdicator." [laughter]

00:43:21
No, I just turned it. I turned it I gave

00:43:24
people responsibility before they maybe

00:43:26
thought they were ready or maybe even

00:43:28
before they were ready.

00:43:31
But it's just like raising a family. How

00:43:33
do how do you learn? How do these kids

00:43:34
learn? They learn by making mistakes.

00:43:38
In fact, that's one of the greatest

00:43:40
mistakes that parents make is not

00:43:42
letting their kids make mistakes.

00:43:44
[laughter]

00:43:46
you know there no because they can

00:43:48
afford to be bailed out uh all the time.

00:43:51
So, so, uh, I I was always had that

00:43:55
vision

00:43:57
and, uh, when we started, uh, the

00:44:00
National Christian Foundation, uh, I

00:44:02
told Terry Parker, the person who was

00:44:05
really behind it,

00:44:07
uh, I said, I think that the foundation

00:44:09
is going to give away a billion dollars

00:44:11
before the year 2000.

00:44:14
And um

00:44:17
this past year they gave away $ three

00:44:20
and a half billion dollars.

00:44:22
Wow. Um and they've given away I don't I

00:44:26
don't remember what the number is

00:44:27
totally but it was it was a tool to be

00:44:30
used for those who wanted to to give.

00:44:34
Um, and I I didn't have anything to do

00:44:37
with the management of the National

00:44:39
Christian Foundation, but when I I left

00:44:42
Ronald Bluen Company, uh, that was

00:44:46
really God's working. Um,

00:44:50
and that I didn't plan on leaving.

00:44:54
Okay.

00:44:56
Um,

00:44:58
but uh I had I had put together a board

00:45:01
of directors and I gave them the uh

00:45:05
right to fire me and they did.

00:45:09
Okay.

00:45:10
With good reason.

00:45:13
Okay. Uh it was because my vision, as

00:45:16
they say in the South, I outran my

00:45:18
coverage. Okay.

00:45:21
Uh, and I had I was starting things and

00:45:26
and it the company needed

00:45:29
to be kind of better managed.

00:45:33
Uh, and I really have never had a great

00:45:36
love of management,

00:45:38
but

00:45:40
but the timing of it was just right.

00:45:44
uh in that

00:45:47
we were beginning

00:45:49
uh this was 20ome years ago and we were

00:45:53
beginning this upward curve on wealth.

00:45:57
We weren't yet at where we are today

00:45:59
with billionaires and trillionaires. Uh

00:46:03
but we were we were started down that

00:46:05
path

00:46:07
and the Lord put in front of me a group

00:46:10
of adviserss who wanted to be trained to

00:46:12
do what I had done terms of building a

00:46:16
that type of practice. So I began

00:46:19
teaching advisors and I found there was

00:46:21
a terrific need. There were a lot of

00:46:24
Christians who were financial adviserss

00:46:27
but there were almost no Christian

00:46:29
financial advisors.

00:46:32
Uh so they were these were good people

00:46:34
who were doing a good job but this was

00:46:38
all secular in terms of their advice

00:46:40
that they were giving. Uh and they would

00:46:43
never give advice on giving.

00:46:46
And as we as we trained them and taught

00:46:50
them, we've developed now really an army

00:46:53
of advisors who are thoroughly trained

00:46:57
in the biblical principles of finance.

00:46:59
We got 4,000 of them.

00:47:01
And the beauty of that is that we have a

00:47:04
workforce to go into the church now that

00:47:07
we've never had before of people, men

00:47:11
and women who understand God's word when

00:47:13
it comes to money and how to apply it.

00:47:16
Uh because you can be taught that we to

00:47:20
me Ronald Bluen company was the proof of

00:47:22
concept. Biblical advice works.

00:47:26
Kingdom Advisors was the proof that it

00:47:30
was replicable.

00:47:32
We were able to teach others to do what

00:47:34
we were doing. And uh and that

00:47:40
uh and that spawned

00:47:43
almost

00:47:45
a whole industry because you've got

00:47:48
faith uh driven investors now. You've

00:47:51
got faith-driven entrepreneurs. You've

00:47:53
got women doing well. You've got

00:47:55
generous giving. Uh you've got multiple

00:47:59
ministries that have arisen

00:48:03
uh because there was a need for that.

00:48:06
Mhm.

00:48:06
And there is a legitimate

00:48:10
U industry that Wall Street now

00:48:13
recognizes as legitimate

00:48:16
and Wall Street knows this and they've

00:48:20
proven it now because they've done the

00:48:22
research that the Christian advisor is

00:48:26
their best advisor. I mean they they've

00:48:28
proven it. got a call from uh the

00:48:31
attorney, general attorney at America

00:48:34
Prize number of years ago and we had

00:48:37
gone to Amer Prize

00:48:40
and they had asked the question they

00:48:42
said is there an evangelical market

00:48:45
because we market to niches. We market

00:48:48
to entrepreneurs, we market to uh women,

00:48:51
we market to the gay community because

00:48:53
they have unique planning needs. Is

00:48:56
there an evangelical market that has

00:48:58
unique planting needs?

00:49:00
And we did the study that yeah, it's

00:49:03
big. I mean, it is really, really big.

00:49:07
And so they allowed a Christian focus

00:49:11
group to develop within their company.

00:49:15
They've got 12,000 advisors and the

00:49:18
Christian focus group within America has

00:49:21
700 advisors.

00:49:24
And what they found was that um of their

00:49:29
top 100 advisors in the firm, 60 of them

00:49:33
were in that focus group. Wow.

00:49:37
So they said, "There's something here."

00:49:39
And what they found also was that that

00:49:41
group had a client retention that was

00:49:44
far greater than their other advisors.

00:49:48
Well, that's money in their pocket.

00:49:51
Yeah. Uh so and then we developed this

00:49:54
certification. We we and we we followed

00:49:56
the uh uh rigid rigidity of the

00:50:02
education put it into the university.

00:50:05
They called certified kingdom advisor

00:50:08
and uh Edward Jones for example has

00:50:12
30,000 advisors

00:50:14
and they said we will pay for anybody to

00:50:17
go through that training of their 30,000

00:50:20
because they've seen the that those

00:50:23
advisors are their best best advisor.

00:50:25
They don't have compliance problems with

00:50:27
them and they have client retention with

00:50:29
them. Uh which are two really big issues

00:50:32
for them.

00:50:34
And we're in uh 15 universities that are

00:50:37
now teaching the certified kingdom

00:50:38
advisor.

00:50:40
Uh we're in I don't know how many high

00:50:42
schools teaching biblical finance and uh

00:50:46
so we've got academic credibility, we've

00:50:50
got Wall Street credibility and we've

00:50:52
had got it in the seminaries also. have

00:50:54
theological credibility.

00:50:56
Wow. So, and that wasn't see that wasn't

00:51:00
me, Chris. Okay. I happened to be the

00:51:04
guy that uh God used to do that, but I I

00:51:09
couldn't have I couldn't have done that

00:51:11
on the hill. Um

00:51:14
and so

00:51:16
when I look back and people say, "Well,

00:51:18
boy, what a legacy you have." I said, "I

00:51:19
don't have a legacy."

00:51:21
I said, "God has the legacy."

00:51:25
I had the opportunity to watch it

00:51:28
uh and be used in particular ways.

00:51:32
Wow.

00:51:32
So,

00:51:34
um I what I so I was asked um a couple

00:51:38
weeks ago, I was at Blue Trust now and

00:51:42
the CEO said, "How do you feel about

00:51:44
seeing this company and its success?"

00:51:48
And I said, 'I feel unbelievable joy

00:51:52
at what God did and he allowed me to to

00:51:56
watch it and see it um and be a part of

00:51:59
it. So So that's that's the way I I feel

00:52:04
I don't I know better than to give

00:52:07
myself credit for doing it. Okay.

00:52:09
[laughter]

00:52:13
you you have done so many cool things uh

00:52:17
or got to be a part of so many cool

00:52:19
things and and I am

00:52:21
I I'm just uh I'm excited to hopefully

00:52:24
have you back on the podcast in the

00:52:25
future to talk about more of them. Uh I

00:52:27
I want to finish with a few rapidfire

00:52:30
questions in the next 60 seconds where

00:52:32
just say one or two words as the answer

00:52:34
for each of these and we'll see how many

00:52:36
we get through. Who's the first person

00:52:38
you think of when I say servant

00:52:40
leadership?

00:52:42
Uh, I think of Bill Brightite.

00:52:44
Yeah, that's a good one. Uh, book or

00:52:47
author you recommend people who are

00:52:48
listening check out?

00:52:50
Uh, I'd read Randy Alhorn's The Treasure

00:52:53
Principle.

00:52:54
That's good. He's going to be on the

00:52:55
podcast, too. Uh, favorite food.

00:52:58
My favorite food, pretzels.

00:53:02
[laughter]

00:53:02
Favorite thing to do in your free time?

00:53:05
Golf.

00:53:06
Favorite place you've been?

00:53:08
Oh golly. Um, probably Africa.

00:53:13
What's a surprising fact about you?

00:53:17
Uh, I'm still alive at age 84.

00:53:21
[laughter]

00:53:22
That's a good one. Is there anywhere you

00:53:25
want to go in the world that you haven't

00:53:26
been to yet?

00:53:27
No.

00:53:29
I'm I'm very happy right where I am. If

00:53:32
if you had to think through one piece of

00:53:35
money wisdom to leave our audience with,

00:53:37
what would it be?

00:53:38
Spend less than you earn and keep doing

00:53:40
it for a long time. And remember, God

00:53:43
owns it all.

00:53:44
Love that. All right. Best advice you

00:53:47
personally ever received.

00:53:50
Oh, wow. Um,

00:53:52
best advice I've ever received.

00:53:55
Uh, well, it would have to be um to love

00:53:59
my wife and my family probably.

00:54:02
That's good. All right. And finally,

00:54:04
this is a podcast on servant leadership.

00:54:06
Why should people listening care about

00:54:08
becoming better servant leaders?

00:54:10
Because there are no better leaders than

00:54:12
servant leaders. [laughter]

00:54:15
And that's what your title says. So that

00:54:18
that is the key to leadership.

00:54:20
I love that. Well, Ron, thank you for

00:54:23
your wisdom and spending time with us.

00:54:25
I'm excited for people to go follow the

00:54:27
stuff that you've been involved in and

00:54:29
check out more about what God's invited

00:54:31
you to be a part of all these years.

00:54:33
Thanks, Chris. What a joy it's been. The

00:54:35
time went really fast.

00:54:37
Thank [laughter] you.

00:54:38
That's true. Thank you for listening to

00:54:40
this episode of the Servant Leadership

00:54:43
Podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard,

00:54:45
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00:54:47
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