Upstream Thinking in Public Health

0:00
In public health, we like to think of it

0:02
as upstream thinking, right? So, there

0:04
may be a problem that you're facing

0:06
right in front of you. And we have a

0:08
parable actually that is all about how

0:10
there's drowning people in a river in

0:13
front of you. And you keep on pulling

0:14
out drowning person after drowning

0:16
person. And finally, someone stops to

0:19
say, "Well, what what's happening

0:21
upstream that is causing all these

0:22
people to drown in the river and end up

0:24
at this point in the river?

Introducing Paul Fleming

0:33
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

0:35
we welcome Paul Fleming, author of

0:37
Imagine Doing Better and professor of

0:39
public health at the University of

0:40
Michigan. Paul accidentally fell into

0:42
public health as a PeaceCore volunteer

0:44
in Nicaragua, working as a community

0:46
health worker alongside youth groups and

0:48
pregnant mothers. That experience

0:50
reshaped how he saw his work, not as

0:52
fighting disease, but as building

0:54
communities where people can thrive.

0:56
Working in public health, Paul thinks

0:58
constantly about how the decisions we

1:00
make today leave people better or worse

1:02
off generations from now while trying to

1:04
move people from a scarcity mindset to

1:06
an abundance mindset for better human

1:08
flourishing. Join us as Paul shares

1:11
about prevention thinking and why

1:12
imagination is one of the most underused

1:14
tools in leadership.

Paul's Journey into Public Health

1:18
Paul, thank you for joining us on the

1:20
servant leadership podcast.

1:22
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited

1:23
to chat.

1:25
This is really fun because I bumped into

1:28
your book uh doing some research on my

1:30
own and somebody passed me your book and

1:31
I was like, "Wow, this is a really

1:33
really good book, but uh and I know

1:36
you've written more than just one book,

1:37
but um talk about your journey into

1:40
public health before we dive into

1:42
Imagine Doing Better."

Accidental Entry into Public Health

1:44
Yeah, absolutely. So, I like to sort of

1:47
say I accidentally fell into public

1:49
health and still I feel a little bit

1:52
strange that I work in this field even

1:54
though I love it so much because at the

1:57
end of the day, the thing that I'm most

1:59
excited and energized to work towards

2:01
isn't about people being healthier. It's

2:04
actually about thriving communities and

2:06
organizations and how how people can

2:09
live their best life. And so, part of

2:11
that is health and diseases and things

2:14
like that. Um, but the way I got into

2:16
public health was I started to to learn

2:19
that it's a field that really thinks

2:21
about how do we build and structure

2:23
communities so that people can be

2:25
healthy. And the way I got into it was

2:27
as a peacecore volunteer. So prior to

2:30
that, I never actually had that much

2:32
interest in the field of health. But

2:34
when I became a peacecore volunteer,

2:36
they said, "Oh, we're going to assign

2:38
you to be working in the area of

2:40
community health." and they sent me to

2:42
the country of Nicaragua in Central

2:44
America and trained me as a community

2:47
health worker to work in partnership

2:49
with some folks working at a clinic uh

2:51
some Nicaraguan folks working at a

2:53
clinic um down there. And as we did that

2:56
work, we were working with youth groups,

2:58
we were working with pregnant moms, we

3:01
were working with different

3:02
organizations. And I started to realize,

3:05
oh, the work we're doing that, yes, is

3:08
sort of focused on health and disease

3:10
and preventing different things, but

3:12
it's actually about how do we build

3:14
communities that support people and give

3:16
people the resources to thrive?

Collaborative Community Building

3:19
And and what I loved about it was it's

3:21
so collaborative. I was I was working

3:23
with different folks who had different

3:26
experiences than me and we had to bring

3:28
together coalitions to solve complex

3:30
problems. And so it was at that moment

3:32
that I started to think like, oh maybe

3:34
maybe this field is for me. Um and and

3:38
so eventually I I pursued graduate

3:40
education in public health, got my

3:42
formal training in public health and and

3:44
really never looked back and and now I'm

3:46
you know a professor at the University

3:47
of Michigan in the school of public

3:49
health. But but still to this day I like

3:52
to think of myself as focused on much

3:54
more than just health but more about

3:56
thriving communities. Well, one of the

3:58
things that I found interesting was

Prevention Thinking Beyond Health

4:02
although health was a core theme of the

4:04
book, really the the thing that I took

4:06
away was this idea of prevention

4:07
thinking which felt like it was way

4:10
broader than public health, right? It

4:11
hits a bunch of different industries.

4:14
Talk about how that even came to be like

4:17
where you realized prevention uh was

4:19
maybe a better route or prevention

4:21
thinking was a better route.

Understanding Prevention Thinking

4:24
Absolutely. So, you know, this

4:26
prevention thinking idea in some ways is

4:29
the bread and butter of of my field of

4:31
public health. But like you're saying,

4:34
you know, you you start to look at it

4:35
and you start to realize, oh my, there's

4:38
so many applications well beyond just

4:40
thinking about uh public health or

4:42
community health. And and so the

4:45
prevention thinking when I mean in

4:47
public health, we like to think of it as

4:49
upstream thinking, right? So there may

4:51
be a problem that you're facing right in

4:53
front of you and we have a parable

4:55
actually that is all about how there's

4:57
drowning people in a river in front of

5:00
you and you keep on pulling out drowning

5:02
person after drowning person and finally

5:04
someone stops to say well what what's

5:07
happening upstream that is causing all

5:09
these people to drown in the river and

5:11
end up at this point in the river

The Parable of the River

5:13
and so that parable is really a

5:14
foundation of the field of public health

5:16
but it but it's actually a lesson for

5:19
all of us and and all of us who are

5:21
thinking about things like building

5:23
organizations or building companies or

5:26
building a community that that people

5:28
are able to thrive in because we can't

5:31
just look at the crisis in front of us.

5:33
We have to actually look upstream and

5:35
think about what are the root causes

5:38
that are that are making these problems

5:40
exist. So going back to the parable, you

5:44
can stand at the edge of the river and

5:45
pull out drowning person after drowning

5:48
person or you can go travel upstream

5:52
and fix the bridge that is causing

5:54
people to fall in the river in the first

5:56
place. Right? And when you think about

5:59
cost savings, when you think about

6:01
effectiveness,

Fixing the Bridge Upstream

6:03
it is going to be way better to fix that

6:05
bridge upstream, right? because then

6:08
you're not spending so many resources

6:10
saving person after person because

6:11
they're going to keep coming because

6:12
that bridge is still broken. And so

6:15
putting those resources upstream and

6:17
really solving the root cause of the

6:20
problem makes for a better life for

6:22
those people that ended up drowning. It

6:24
makes for a better life for the

6:25
community. And that's the that's the

6:28
parable that we actually need to draw

6:30
into all of our work. And what the book

6:33
uh imagine doing better is ultimately

6:34
about is how do we pivot to looking at

6:38
root cause issues, solving issues at

6:40
their root or upstream. And that is the

6:44
core of prevention thinking,

6:45
tackling root causes and then working

6:47
together to solve those things.

Challenges of Prevention Thinking

6:50
It sounds so obvious when you talk about

6:52
it like well no duh. Why why wouldn't

6:54
this just be the way it is? Um but all

6:58
over you see prevention thinking not

7:02
happening in public health and other

7:04
areas. Why does it not happen in such

7:07
obvious places from what you've seen?

7:09
And where's an example where you're

7:10
like, "Hey, I've really seen this work

7:12
well and it's impacted society or a

7:15
specific community uh really

7:17
positively."

Examples of Prevention Thinking

7:19
Yeah, it's a great question. So, you

7:21
know, all you have to do is open up a

7:23
newspaper, look at the news, and you see

7:26
examples of people not using prevention

7:29
thinking. And you know what that looks

7:32
like is a crisis happens and people go

7:36
into solely response mode. And so you

7:39
can see it, you know, sometimes in some

7:41
of our cities across the country, um

7:43
there's a wave of of homelessness,

7:46
people without housing, and a city needs

7:49
to mobilize and think about how are we

7:51
going to respond? There's there's more

7:53
and every day, every week, there's more

7:54
and more people who are unhoused.

Addressing Homelessness

7:58
And so they might mobilize resources to

8:00
set up temporary shelters, mobilize

8:03
resources to turn school gyms into

8:05
places that can distribute food. Now, of

8:08
course, all of that stuff is important.

8:09
We we need to meet the crisis where it

8:12
is,

8:13
but you also need to bring in your

8:16
prevention thinking lens before the

8:18
crisis happens. Okay. What are some of

8:21
the root causes that cause people to be

8:23
unhoused in the first place? There's uh

8:27
unequal pay where people don't earn a

8:30
living wage is one root cause. Our our

8:32
public policies allow for that. Um there

8:35
are lacks policies around who can be

8:38
evicted. There's uh policies, you know,

8:41
that that favor uh landlords uh over

8:44
tenants, for example. All of those

8:46
things can contribute to pushing and

8:49
forcing people to be part of the

8:50
unhoused population. And so if as a

8:54
society or as a community you start to

8:56
think about well how can we fix some of

8:58
those things so that before we get to a

9:00
crisis point we can address those

9:03
issues. We're going to be in a much

9:05
better spot because once the crisis has

9:08
arrived it's actually pretty hard to

9:10
divert resources. I still contend that

9:12
we need to divert resources to that root

9:15
cause and and focus on that. But you're

9:17
so focused on the crisis in front of you

9:19
actually lose sight of that bigger

9:21
picture. it's harder to see those root

9:23
causes in that moment.

RX Kids Initiative

9:25
And you know, I think there are some

9:27
some good examples of people that are

9:30
using prevention thinking. I'll I'll use

9:33
one example from the state I live in,

9:35
Michigan. Uh and it it's actually

9:37
expanded beyond Michigan at this point

9:39
in some places, but there's an

9:41
initiative led um by some folks uh Dr.

9:44
Mona Hannah and others called RX Kids

9:47
and it's actually providing money to

9:50
pregnant moms in the state because we

9:53
know that when people are pregnant, the

9:56
mother and the baby, it's a very

9:58
sensitive time for their health and

10:00
well-being. And so if there's an

10:02
economic crisis for that family or that

10:04
person in that moment, it can actually

10:06
have some really long-term effects on

10:09
the baby. And so part of this uh program

10:12
is giving cash transfers to pregnant

10:14
moms in a community so that they have

10:17
more resources to be able to build a

10:19
healthy foundation while they're

10:22
pregnant. And the research is showing

10:24
that this type of thinking, which is

10:27
preventing an economic crisis before it

10:30
exists on kind of an individual level,

10:33
it is showing long-term effects on the

10:36
baby's health. And so that is that is

10:38
preventing a crisis before it happens

10:41
instead of the alternative is that you

10:44
have pregnant mom after pregnant mom

10:46
that is saying I'm struggling to

10:48
actually get the nutrition I need to

10:49
feed this baby or I'm I'm I'm homeless

10:52
now because I couldn't afford my rent,

10:54
right? Instead, RX Kids is thinking

10:56
about how do we prevent those things

10:58
from happening before they start? And so

11:00
I think it's actually a really good

11:01
example of a public public policy that's

11:04
getting adopted more and more in

11:05
Michigan and also in a few other states

11:07
around the country that is using this

11:09
lens.

Funding and Public Health

11:11
I love that example. It's interesting

11:13
because as just a regular old civilian,

11:17
we see millions or billions or any

11:20
amount of money going towards solving

11:22
some of these public health crises and

11:25
just issues of our time today. you know,

11:27
and and there's all this state funding,

11:29
federal funding, and it seems like

11:31
there's more funding than ever, but in a

11:34
lot of cases, it's getting worse and

11:36
worse. And so, from your standpoint,

11:38
because you have a totally different

11:40
vantage point, which I love. How do you

11:42
see it where there's more funding than

11:44
ever maybe in certain areas, but but it

11:46
is getting worse. Uh, how do you even

11:48
reconcile that?

Impact of Funding Cuts

11:50
Yeah, I I think certainly in the in the

11:53
onset of COVID, we did see more

11:55
resources mobilized for public health in

11:58
in many cases, but you know, if you look

12:01
over the last year or two, we have been

12:02
seeing pretty drastic funding cuts to

12:05
public health institutions and other

12:08
other resources that are intended to

12:10
protect public health. And so, you know,

12:13
I think we we are seeing some of the the

12:16
consequences of that. Some of the um

12:19
agencies or or resources at the Food and

12:22
Drug Administration, for example, have

12:24
been cut that that are put in place that

12:26
protect people from foodborne illness

12:29
and other things. And so, we've seen

12:31
outbreaks of food born illness and and

12:33
really fewer resources to be able to

12:35
respond to that. So, so part of

12:38
prevention thinking is also building up

12:40
institutions and making sure that they

12:43
are wellkilled and well resourced to be

12:46
able to respond when things come up. And

12:48
what we're seeing right now is that

12:49
these funding cuts are are the exact

12:52
opposite of prevention thinking and

12:54
they're actually just sort of waiting

12:55
for a crisis to happen. And and of

12:57
course that's going to leave us all in a

12:59
worse place.

Policy Backfires and Health

13:01
Yeah. I it was interesting in the book

13:03
how you talked about how uh various

13:06
policies that have happened over the

13:07
years often end up backfiring, right?

13:10
And so that's a a common theme where

13:12
maybe it seems like there's more money,

13:13
but also maybe it's getting cut in the

13:16
areas that actually were mattering and

13:18
maybe it's just going towards benefiting

13:20
different cities and other ways that

13:22
aren't public health related. Um, I'm

13:24
curious when when we talk about public

13:26
health and we talk about prevention

13:27
thinking, what do you think the US does

13:30
well compared to other countries and

13:33
what do you think other countries do

13:35
better than maybe the US does?

US vs. Other Countries

13:40
Yeah, the the US I mean I think maybe

13:43
I'll start with your second question

13:45
then shift to the the first one which is

13:47
what do other countries do better? I

13:49
mean, if you study uh the health of

13:53
populations, which I've done in my

13:55
career, um

13:58
our our population in the US is less

14:01
healthy than other countries. Um and

14:04
this is getting attention from all

14:05
political spectrums, right? We see we

14:08
see both Republicans and Democrat

14:10
Democrats talking about the fact that we

14:12
are a less healthy country. But you know

14:15
if you really study the root of that and

14:18
look at all the data that's out there

14:22
you know a lot of it draws back to our

14:24
health care system and our social safety

14:26
net in the US. So almost every other

14:30
country with resources

14:32
has chosen a different model where they

14:35
have universal health care. their the

14:37
government is more involved in the

14:39
health care system in terms of funding

14:40
it or um staffing it and they get better

14:45
outcomes across society. They have

14:47
longer life expectancy, fewer infant

14:49
mortality all across the board when we

14:52
look at a lot of different health

14:53
metrics. Uh we see that it's better when

14:57
government is more involved in

14:59
healthcare in terms of of ensuring that

15:02
every uh every resident has access to

15:05
health care. We don't have that same

15:07
system in here. We have a more

15:08
commodity-based health care system.

15:11
There are a few ways in which we we help

15:14
guarantee that people with fewer

15:16
resources can still access health care

15:18
in emergency, but by and large we don't

15:20
guarantee that. We think of it more as a

15:23
as a business model, frankly. And we

15:25
spend more per person on health care in

15:28
the US than any other country. And it's

15:30
not even close. It's not even close. we

15:33
spend way more money and we get worse

15:35
outcomes. So I think that's that's an

15:37
example of we need to shift. We need to

15:40
shake things up. Um we aren't we aren't

15:43
the best in the world on that, right? I

15:46
think there are some other areas where

15:48
the US does lead. Um in a lot of ways we

15:52
have traditionally been leaders in terms

15:55
of uh infectious disease control and

15:57
prevention. So we are excellent at

16:01
mobilizing public health resources when

16:03
there is a disease outbreak. We often

16:06
are leaders globally going to other

16:09
countries sometimes when there's a

16:10
disease outbreak but also within our own

16:12
country. Um

Concerns About Future Leadership

16:15
but we've seen that some of those

16:16
programs have actually been cut over the

16:18
last year or two. So while we have

16:20
traditionally been a leader, I do have

16:21
some concerns that we will continue to

16:24
be able to be that because as public

16:26
health has been in the crosshairs in the

16:28
postcoid environment, some of these

16:31
programs that do a lot of good and

16:34
actually protect a lot of us um are

16:37
getting slashed just because people are

16:40
frustrated with how COVID played out or

16:42
frustrated that they were mandated to

16:43
wear a mask. They're now cutting

16:45
wholesale uh different public health

16:47
programs that help keep everybody safe.

Prevention Thinking in Business

16:51
It It's interesting and I'd be really

16:54
curious about your vantage point on

16:55
this. Uh we talk a lot about servant

16:57
leadership on the podcast. We have a lot

16:59
of business leaders normally and and I

17:02
love how you come in from this angle.

17:04
When you look at business uh and I know

17:07
you've looked at a lot of businesses and

17:08
other things too. Uh where do you see

17:11
prevention thinking being something

17:14
business leaders should be thinking

17:17
about?

Long-term Perspective in Business

17:19
Absolutely. The the crux of prevention

17:21
thinking is really trying to step back

17:24
from what's right in front of you and

17:27
adopting a more long-term perspective,

17:29
which you know sometimes businesses can

17:31
struggle with, especially if they're

17:33
thinking in a quarterto quarter

17:34
framework, uh meeting their next uh

17:37
deadline, those types of things. But you

17:40
really see the power of prevention

17:42
thinking when you step back from the

17:44
current moment and think about what are

17:47
you building longer term. And you know

17:50
depending on the context sometimes in

17:52
the book when I say long term I'm

17:54
talking about seven generations in the

17:56
future or about 200 years in the future

17:59
which is an idea drawn from indigenous

18:01
communities of of seven generations

18:03
thinking. But you can also be thinking

18:05
about, you know, five years in the

18:06
future, 10 years in the future.

Imagination as a Leadership Tool

18:09
And so I think for for business leaders

18:12
really one of the powerful leadership

18:15
tools that we have is long-term thinking

18:19
and using our imagination. So, if we get

18:22
stuck in thinking about what is right

18:25
now and what's right in front of us, and

18:28
sometimes that means getting stuck in

18:29
your inbox, getting stuck in day-to-day

18:31
meetings, those types of things, you

18:34
lose that leadership capacity to step

18:37
back and imagine where is the future

18:39
that your business or your organization

18:42
needs to be. And so one of the ideas

18:45
that I talk about a lot in the book is

18:47
the power of imagination and how

18:50
imagination is actually a leadership

18:52
tool that's underutilized. So we as

18:55
leaders can use our own imagination but

18:57
we can also cultivate imagination in our

19:00
teams to be imagining what is the

19:04
version of this business or the version

19:06
of this organization that exists 5 10

19:10
years in the future that is better than

19:12
what we have right now. And when you're

19:16
stuck just in your email inbox or in the

19:18
meeting that you're in a lot of times we

19:21
don't use our imagination. Um, you know,

19:24
we always like as a society, we know

19:26
that kids have wild imaginations. They

19:28
think about unicorns and rainbows and

19:31
all these other things, but somewhere

19:33
over the years, as we enter into

19:35
adulthood, that that imagination is

19:37
stripped away from us. Um, and so we

19:40
actually as leaders, one of the

19:41
opportunities we have is to bring that

19:43
back and cultivate it. So, in some of

19:45
the teams I work with, for example,

19:48
we're we're bringing out markers, we're

19:51
drawing, we're sometimes using poetry

19:53
and other things to spark our

19:56
imagination and get out of this this

19:58
more organizational culture, business

20:01
mindset, deadline oriented, and start to

20:05
dream. Dream what could we be? What what

20:08
do what do our clients what do our

20:10
community members what do our customers

20:12
what do they actually need us to be what

20:15
could we be because once and here's the

20:18
power Chris is that once you imagine

20:21
that future

20:23
it it it almost becomes a map there's a

20:26
there's a quote I really love um from

20:29
you know from a book that

20:33
sorry I wanna I want to pause because I

20:34
want to get the quote

20:38
Um but the map to a better future is in

20:41
the imagination.

20:43
And that that quote um is is

20:47
so powerful because it

20:50
once you imagine that better future, you

20:53
can start taking the steps towards it.

20:54
And I think that's where as leaders we

20:57
can really cultivate that.

Imagination and Servant Leadership

20:59
I love that. And I love the idea of uh

21:02
bringing back that imagination spark

21:04
from childhood. Well, one of the things

21:06
I think is interesting when you talk

21:08
about like a seven generation uh

21:10
mindset, most of us are so selfish and

21:14
so focused on ourselves in our own

21:16
families that we don't even have time or

21:20
capacity or it doesn't even cross our

21:22
mind to think about what will it be what

21:24
will it be like seven generations after

21:26
me? like that just doesn't cross our

21:29
mind. How do you help people, especially

21:31
because I love the mentality of that

21:33
from a servant leadership lens of like

21:35
really that's serving others, right?

21:36
It's taking away that selfishness. How

21:38
do you help somebody go from I'm worried

21:41
about myself. I'm worried about today to

21:43
now realizing, hey, there's something

21:46
much bigger than yourself. And I'm not

21:48
sure how that might integrate with like

21:50
your community- based approaches that

21:51
you talk about or if it doesn't relate

21:53
at all, but I'd be really curious to

21:55
know your thoughts on that.

Stewardship and Leadership

21:58
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I I think it

22:00
it pairs a lot with servant leadership

22:03
because at the end of the day, really

22:05
powerful good leaders step out of

22:07
themselves and think about what is going

22:10
to be best for the the organization as a

22:14
whole or or the communities that they're

22:16
serving. And and you know, it's about

22:19
it's about stewardship more so than

22:22
about exercising authority, right? It's

22:25
about stewarding a organization or a

22:29
company so that it gets to the place

22:32
that it needs to be to best serve and

22:35
meet the needs of the of the community.

22:38
And that, you know, that's detaching a a

22:40
bit from this hyperfocus on profit or

22:44
short-term gain. And it's more thinking

22:46
about what are we handing off to the

22:49
next generation. And I think a lot of

22:50
times in our organizations, we aren't

22:52
thinking with that same perspective, but

22:55
we are we are in in the most massive

22:59
relay race imaginable, right? You and I

23:02
are are working. We're uh working adults

23:06
taking the baton right now trying to

23:10
maybe a few decades in the future pass

23:12
that baton to the next generation. And I

23:15
know for me, and I'm sure this is true

23:16
for you and a lot of listeners, I want

23:19
us to be in a better position when I'm

23:22
handing off the baton than when I got it

23:24
right. I want to do my job. And so I

23:28
need to be thinking about what am I

23:31
building for that next generation? What

23:33
am I handing off? Am I just exploiting

23:36
resources for my own gain so that what I

23:39
ultimately hand off to the next

23:40
generation is is almost nothing or am I

23:44
trying to build something that is

23:46
beautiful and wonderful and actually

23:48
meets people's needs to be able to

23:50
thrive that then the next generation can

23:52
take and build on because the the the

23:56
issues that we face in society in our

23:59
communities in our businesses they they

24:02
are complex. they are they are not going

24:05
we're not going to overnight solve these

24:08
problems or get to you know some utopia

24:11
tomorrow.

Building for Future Generations

24:12
But what I do firmly believe is that we

24:15
can take steps towards that place. So I

24:18
don't I don't ever think of it as a

24:19
destination. We're going to someday get

24:21
to this perfect world. I don't think

24:23
that that is is within the realm of

24:25
reality. But I do know that we can

24:27
always be getting closer and closer to a

24:30
world that better meets everybody's

24:33
needs because we we know when we study

24:36
what's going on today in 2026, we know

24:39
that a lot of people are left behind. A

24:43
lot of people are ignored. A lot of

24:45
people are disenfranchised.

24:47
Um some people benefit from that system,

24:49
right? But there are a lot of people who

24:51
are left behind. And what I I kind of

24:54
dedicate my career to and my leadership

24:57
to and I and I would guess a lot of

24:59
listeners do as well is how do we

25:01
actually build something

25:04
that that that meets more people's needs

25:07
that doesn't leave people behind. And we

25:10
may not get there in my generation, but

25:12
we might hand something off to the next

25:14
generation that's better than where we

25:16
started.

Profit and Purpose

25:17
Yeah. One of the the shifts I've seen

25:20
from a lot of my friends and people in

25:22
the fund world is that um profit used to

25:27
be the number one motive and profit is

25:29
still important and profit is what

Human Flourishing Discussion

25:32
makes the world go around I guess um but

25:34
there's been a huge shift to human

25:36
flourishing and how do you still profit

25:42
and actually sometimes even profit even

25:44
more so but centered around this concept

25:47
cept of human flourishing. I if you

25:50
could think through uh what human

25:53
flourishing looks like from your

25:54
standpoint, what do you think would be

25:58
some great changes you'd love to see in

26:00
society that would look like better

26:02
human flourishing and make everyone

26:04
rise?

Zero Sum vs Abundance

26:07
Yeah. I mean, what it makes me think

26:08
about is this this tension between

26:11
thinking about zero sum thinking and

26:14
abundance thinking. And and what I mean

26:16
by that is oftent times we think about

26:20
ourselves as always in competition. So

26:22
if if if I don't have a resource then

26:25
somebody um somebody else is going to

26:27
have it and so I need to cling to my

26:30
resources, cling to my money, cling to

26:32
my profit because you know somebody else

26:35
might have it and then I won't have it.

26:37
And I think where we really need to

26:39
shift for human flourishing is to this

26:41
place where we are going to share

26:44
resources. So Chris, you might have some

26:47
sort of resource, some uh some money

26:50
etc. and I have it and we collaborate.

26:53
We are in community with each other

26:54
which means that we are both richer

26:56
because we we have things collectively

26:59
and that's something that in I think US

27:02
society we have struggled to do because

27:04
we have you know very individualistic

27:06
thinking that by by our culture

27:09
and of course that has some benefits.

27:11
Individualism can be a really great

27:13
thing for innovation and and other

27:15
things, but we need to shift our mindset

27:18
to thinking about our communities of

27:21
abundance and what are all the resources

27:23
that we have within a community, within

27:26
an organization, and how do we actually

27:28
bring those things together and share

27:30
them? Because if if every single

27:33
individual person has to collect all the

27:37
things that they need to thrive

27:38
themselves, then first off, we're going

27:41
to exploit the planet. We're going to

27:43
that's going to be too much. But when we

27:45
get more towards a sharing economy where

27:48
we are sharing resources and we're

27:50
thinking about, oh, I have this thing,

27:52
but I also can share, um, we're going to

27:54
get to a much better place. And and this

27:56
really draws on a lot of principles from

27:59
mutual aid uh which you know mutual aid

28:02
has existed for a long time in a lot of

28:04
different uh communities. But we saw a

28:07
lot of mutual aid popping up uh during

28:08
the COVID epidemic and even even since

28:11
then where it was all of a sudden hard

28:13
to find food. It was all of a sudden

28:16
hard to go out to the grocery store. It

28:18
was all of a sudden hard to pay rent

28:20
because you weren't able to work. We saw

28:22
communities coming together and saying,

28:24
"Oh, well, I can still work, so let me

28:27
share some of my money with you so you

28:29
can pay rent." Or, "I can go to the

28:31
grocery store, so let me pick up

28:33
groceries for you and a friend and my

28:35
neighbor." And so, we saw this coming

28:37
together of different people. And so

28:39
when I think about human flourishing and

28:42
and and moving away from this profit

28:45
idea, I see, you know, businesses and

28:47
organizations need to recognize that

28:51
this version of the world we have right

28:53
now where, you know, half of the

28:55
population or more can't even can't even

28:58
afford food, can't afford rent, can't

29:00
afford other things.

Sharing Economy Benefits

29:02
That means that they're not they're not

29:04
as able to bring, you know, resources to

29:06
the table. So we want to start sharing

29:09
so that we have a collective where our

29:11
whole society is able to share their

29:14
gifts, share their knowledge, their

29:17
skill sets and we are going to be such a

29:19
more abundant and resourcerich country

29:23
when everybody is able to participate on

29:25
an equal playing field. But instead what

29:27
we have is we have people who are left

29:29
behind not able to um fully realize

29:34
their gifts or fully realize to to take

29:36
on opportunities and I think that makes

29:39
businesses poorer. Um that means that

29:41
they have fewer customers to draw on and

29:44
it makes our organizations less um less

29:47
thriving because we can't actually draw

29:49
on the full spectrum of of humans.

Shane Claiborne Mention

29:52
Yeah, that's so good. I'm not sure if

29:54
you bumped into any of the work from

29:56
Shane Claybornne. Does that name ring a

29:58
bell at all?

30:00
I haven't, but I'll have to look look it

30:02
up.

30:02
Shane built it's in Pennsylvania

30:05
somewhere. Some missional type community

30:06
where it's like everyone does pull

30:08
resources and everyone does like they do

30:11
things together for the bettering of

30:13
their community. Um, and this

30:16
conversation is just making me think

30:17
through how that has just flourished

30:19
like crazy. Um, in Yeah, it's a it's a

30:22
really fascinating

30:24
case study is the word I want to use,

30:25
but it it's not just a case study. It's

30:27
like a way of doing life.

30:29
It's real life. Yeah.

Rapid Fire Questions

30:30
Yeah. That's super cool. All right,

30:33
Paul, I want to finish with 10 rapidfire

30:36
questions.

30:36
Okay.

30:37
Uh, and you just say the first thing

30:38
that comes to mind, no wrong answers.

30:41
All right, I'll do my best.

30:42
Who's the first person you think of when

30:44
I say servant leadership?

30:49
Barack Obama.

30:51
Five words that most describe you.

30:55
Collaborative, imaginative,

31:00
creative,

31:06
giving,

31:11
kind. That's harder than I thought.

31:14
All right. Uh, author that you'd

31:16
recommend people checking out?

31:20
Um, Richard Powers.

31:23
Okay. Favorite food?

31:26
Probably tacos.

31:29
Favorite thing to do in your free time?

31:31
I like to go for long runs in the woods.

31:36
Surprising fact about you.

31:40
I was once nominated for an Emmy.

31:45
Wow.

31:45
Which is mostly true, but it was a

31:48
Michigan local Emmy for this random

31:51
video I created one time. So, not a not

31:54
a not a filmmaker or anything like that,

31:56
but uh it was kind of a a fun fact.

31:58
That is cool. All right. Uh you're at

32:00
University of Michigan. Best U of M

32:02
tradition.

32:04
Oh. Um

32:08
I love at at Michigan Stadium when when

32:12
the wave gets going. Uh because it's the

32:14
biggest stadium in North America, so

32:16
it's pretty fun.

32:17
All right. Uh where's a place you want

32:20
to go that you have not been to yet?

32:22
I really want to travel to the country

32:24
of Nepal.

32:26
Wow, that would be cool.

32:27
Yeah.

32:28
Uh to go to Everest or just Nepal? Yeah.

32:31
I mean, I don't have ambitions to

32:33
actually climb Everest, but uh that

32:35
would be cool. Yeah.

32:37
Uh best advice you've ever received.

32:42
Um

32:45
probably something along the lines of,

32:52
you know, don't try to do too much

32:55
because that's always my problem.

32:58
Well, and you're tackling some major

33:00
major issues. Uh,

33:01
right. Right.

Importance of Servant Leadership

33:02
All right. Finally, why is a podcast on

33:05
servant leadership important? Why should

33:06
people care about being better servant

33:08
leaders?

33:11
I mean, I think it goes back to the the

33:14
relay race idea that we were talking

33:16
about. You know, it's it's servant

33:18
leadership is one of those things that

33:20
we can do to help build a better future

33:23
for the next generation. And that's

33:25
something we all should be invested in.

Closing Remarks

33:28
Well, Paul, thank you for sharing your

33:31
wisdom with us. We're going to link in

33:32
the comments below to uh or the

33:34
descriptions to your book and hopefully

33:36
people can start following you because I

33:38
know you put out a bunch of other

33:39
articles too that people can check out

33:41
in this space.

33:42
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having

33:44
me. It was a great conversation.

33:47
Thank you for listening to this episode

33:49
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

33:52
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

33:53
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

33:55
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34:01
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34:06
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