00:00:00
people don't trust each other. Some

00:00:02
cases people don't even like each other.

00:00:04
Um it's just it's a very odd feeling.

00:00:07
And I discovered through that experience

00:00:10
that I don't care how great your vision

00:00:12
is. If you don't have a healthy vibrant

00:00:14
culture in your organization, that

00:00:16
vision is never going to happen. I I

00:00:17
would much rather work with a team that

00:00:20
has a really healthy vital culture,

00:00:23
healthy vital chemistry than and no

00:00:25
vision because believe me, something is

00:00:27
going to come out of that.

00:00:35
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

00:00:37
we welcome Phil Cook, the founder and

00:00:39
CEO of Cook Media Group. For more than

00:00:41
three decades, Phil has produced and

00:00:43
directed television and film projects in

00:00:45
more than 70 countries, working with

00:00:47
studios like Disney and DreamWorks

00:00:49
alongside ministries such as Voice of

00:00:51
[music] the Martyrs, the Museum of the

00:00:53
Bible, and the Salvation Army. He also

00:00:55
founded the nonprofit influence lab and

00:00:58
holds a PhD in theology, a rare

00:01:00
combination for a working producer in

00:01:02
Hollywood. In this conversation, Phil

00:01:04
and I talk about leading organizations

00:01:05
through public crisis, the importance of

00:01:08
transparency and trust building, [music]

00:01:09
and the importance of creative

00:01:10
leadership.

00:01:13
Phil, thank you for joining us on the

00:01:15
servant leadership podcast.

00:01:17
Well, thank you, Chris. I'm honored to

00:01:18
be asked. This is this is going to be

00:01:20
fun. we don't know each other and so

00:01:22
this is kind of a blind interview and um

00:01:25
I'm looking forward to it. [laughter]

00:01:27
This is gonna be awesome because I I

00:01:29
don't remember how I bumped into your

00:01:30
stuff years ago, but it has been super

00:01:32
inspirational partially because I've

00:01:35
enjoyed marketing media forever, but

00:01:37
you're like a legend in this space. How

00:01:39
did you

00:01:40
how did you even get into doing

00:01:42
everything that you've done?

00:01:44
Well, that's a big question. It's taken

00:01:46
a long taken a long time. You know, I

00:01:49
it's funny. I started making movies when

00:01:51
I was in high school with my dad's super

00:01:53
super eight film camera. We had three

00:01:55
minute little rolls of film and um I had

00:01:58
a group of guys that loved to make

00:02:00
movies and we made Star Trek movies and

00:02:02
and Mafia movies and Army movies and

00:02:05
Frogman movies. We made everything we

00:02:06
could. And um I went away to college

00:02:09
thinking um maybe there's going to be

00:02:11
some guys that would want to make

00:02:13
movies. You know, it never crossed my

00:02:14
mind I could do this for a living that

00:02:16
that media was something to do for a

00:02:18
living. I my my dad was a pastor, so I

00:02:21
played piano. That was a job requirement

00:02:22
for a pastor's kid back in those days.

00:02:25
And I just assumed I would major in

00:02:26
music because it was all I knew. And lo

00:02:29
and behold, I got to college and the

00:02:31
first day I was there, some I'm

00:02:33
unpacking, some films fell out of my

00:02:35
suitcase and a student across the hall,

00:02:37
Rod Carlson, said, "Hey, uh, let me show

00:02:39
you how to edit those. I'm taking a film

00:02:41
class." And I didn't even know you could

00:02:42
edit film. I didn't know what that was

00:02:44
about. So he took me down to the film

00:02:46
department. We worked. After a few

00:02:48
hours, the professor happened to be

00:02:50
there. He walked over and introduced

00:02:52
himself and said, "You know, I've been

00:02:54
watching your little film out of the

00:02:55
corner of my eye and um I've got

00:02:57
students that have been taking class for

00:02:58
years and don't do this well." He said,

00:03:00
"Would you mind if I showed your little

00:03:02
film in my class tomorrow?" And I said,

00:03:04
"Well, sure. If I can sit on the back

00:03:06
row." So the next day, I went in, I

00:03:08
threaded the projector with my little

00:03:09
movie. He showed it. I sat on the back

00:03:12
row. And afterwards, people discussed

00:03:14
it. People talked about it. didn't

00:03:15
believe me. It was not Chris, it was not

00:03:17
a great film. This was not a landmark

00:03:18
movie. But but they discussed it and

00:03:21
this I had this thunderbolt experience,

00:03:24
you know, kind of a crystal clear what

00:03:26
I'd call a revelation that I haven't had

00:03:28
before since that if I can do something

00:03:30
with a camera that makes people talk

00:03:32
like this. That's what I'm supposed to

00:03:33
do with my life. And so I literally

00:03:35
changed my major that day and I've never

00:03:38
looked back.

00:03:39
Wow. What are some of the things that

00:03:41
you've got to work on where you're like,

00:03:42
"Wow, that was just amazing to work on."

00:03:45
[snorts]

00:03:45
Well, you know, over the years, we've

00:03:47
managed a film in about almost a hundred

00:03:50
countries and um I've had every kind of

00:03:53
experience you can imagine. We've been

00:03:55
arrested in during military coups in

00:03:58
third world countries. We've been

00:03:59
threatened with prison. Um all kind of

00:04:01
weird experiences. Fell out of a

00:04:02
helicopter filming in Jamaica. Um I'm

00:04:05
leaving in about three days to go to

00:04:07
India to film a documentary there. We've

00:04:10
been to India five or six times. And so,

00:04:12
you know, it's more of a where have I

00:04:14
not been these days? And I just been

00:04:17
very very fortunate. We've been helping,

00:04:18
you know, we focus mostly on helping

00:04:21
nonprofit organizations, ministry

00:04:23
organizations, even churches tell their

00:04:25
story in this mediadriven culture we

00:04:27
live in. And as you know, Christians do

00:04:30
some amazing things around the world.

00:04:32
And so, we've had the opportunity to go

00:04:34
film in many of these situations in very

00:04:36
difficult places. And you know, looking

00:04:39
back, it's been a great it's been a

00:04:40
great trip.

00:04:42
Wow. Well, when I first bumped into you,

00:04:45
uh there were two things that that

00:04:46
caught my eye and made me start reading

00:04:48
your content. Uh one was you talk a lot

00:04:51
about crisis management, and that was

00:04:53
interesting to me. But the other one,

00:04:55
and we'll get into that later, the other

00:04:56
one was there was a quote, and I don't

00:04:59
remember the exact quote, but it was

00:05:00
basically like culture over vision. And

00:05:04
and I remember thinking through

00:05:06
personality tests I've taken and

00:05:08
thinking like visionary being on some of

00:05:10
those and I'm like okay that's cool.

00:05:12
I've always thought of it as a strength

00:05:14
and culture to me has been like oh yeah

00:05:16
culture like who needs that you know. Uh

00:05:19
and then when I read your content I was

00:05:20
like oh man I've got this backwards. So

00:05:22
talk about like your journey with

00:05:24
culture over vision and how how you even

00:05:26
came up with your thoughts. Well, you

00:05:28
know, early on in my career, I

00:05:29
discovered that uh I would go into

00:05:32
organizations, companies, uh ministry

00:05:34
organizations, even churches where the

00:05:37
leader had amazing vision. But when you

00:05:39
walk on campus, when you walk into the

00:05:41
building, you feel an oppressive

00:05:43
culture. People don't trust each other.

00:05:45
Some cases, people don't even like each

00:05:46
other. Um it's just it's a very odd

00:05:50
feeling. And I discovered through that

00:05:52
experience that I don't care how great

00:05:54
your vision is. If you don't have a

00:05:57
healthy vibrant culture in your

00:05:58
organization, that vision is never going

00:06:00
to happen. I I would much rather work

00:06:02
with a team that has a really healthy

00:06:05
vital culture, healthy vital chemistry

00:06:08
than and no vision because believe me,

00:06:10
something is going to come out of that.

00:06:11
So, so often we celebrate vision in

00:06:13
leadership. We talk about how important

00:06:15
it is to be a visionary leader and um

00:06:18
that's great but the truth is you also

00:06:21
have to have a culture that's vibrant,

00:06:23
creative, healthy. I think that's really

00:06:25
what spawns creative ideas and it makes

00:06:28
a big big difference. So I always tell

00:06:29
leaders focus first on culture. Make

00:06:31
sure you've got the right team, the

00:06:33
chemistry works well together and that

00:06:36
point at that point you can start

00:06:37
dreaming all you want to because amazing

00:06:39
things could happen.

00:06:40
How do you even help develop that

00:06:42
healthy or solid culture? because it's

00:06:44
like everyone wants it. Uh but it's not

00:06:47
you walk into so many places and it's

00:06:48
just toxic everywhere.

00:06:50
Yeah. You know, sometimes leaders have

00:06:52
to be bold and sometimes some people

00:06:54
have to go. I I've I've been in

00:06:56
organizations where we found a an

00:06:59
employee who was a problem um for

00:07:01
various reasons. Maybe a bottleneck,

00:07:03
maybe he incompetence, maybe just anger

00:07:06
issues, he didn't like working there. Uh

00:07:08
whatever it was, it was a real problem,

00:07:10
but he'd been there forever. And the

00:07:12
boss felt like, I don't know, you know,

00:07:14
George has been here forever. I I just

00:07:16
can't I don't see myself cutting him

00:07:18
loose. And over and over, I've been in

00:07:21
situations where I finally would say,

00:07:22
"Look, if you can't fire George here,

00:07:25
let's send him home at full salary. Just

00:07:28
get I want him out of the office, out of

00:07:29
out of the the culture. Get him home and

00:07:32
keep paying him if you want to. That's

00:07:34
fine." And I actually had one

00:07:36
organization that did that. And

00:07:38
literally it took 48 hours for

00:07:40
everything to be transformed in that

00:07:42
place. Once we got George out of the

00:07:44
mix, everybody got excited. People

00:07:47
started working at their peak. People

00:07:48
started changing their attitudes and and

00:07:51
the the the CEO looked at that and

00:07:53
realized just what a problem George had

00:07:55
been. So sometimes we have to be bold

00:07:57
and and I'm not, you know, I I believe

00:07:59
we we hire too quickly and take too long

00:08:02
to fire people. I'd like to flip that.

00:08:04
I'd like to take longer to make sure we

00:08:06
have the right people in the right

00:08:07
seats, you know, doing the right thing.

00:08:10
And then if they don't work out for

00:08:12
whatever reason, let's help them move

00:08:14
on. And and you know, you don't kick

00:08:15
them to the curb, Chris. You want to

00:08:17
help them get plugged into a place where

00:08:19
they can excel, where they can

00:08:20
contribute, where they can be

00:08:22
successful. But the fact is, if they're

00:08:24
not working in your organization, we

00:08:26
have to make some real changes. Uh, and

00:08:28
very often that means somebody needs to

00:08:30
move on. Sounds harsh, but let me tell

00:08:33
you, it just makes it just changes the

00:08:36
atmosphere all around.

00:08:37
So, as you're a leader trying to figure

00:08:39
out, okay, who are the people that are

00:08:41
enhancing our culture and who's actually

00:08:43
a detractor? How are you even

00:08:45
identifying that? Because you walk

00:08:46
through and maybe you're a little bit

00:08:48
detached as a leader. And maybe that's

00:08:49
even the first step is not to be

00:08:50
detached. But how do you identify uh the

00:08:54
toxic culture and where it's coming

00:08:56
from? You know, you're right about the

00:08:58
the the getting connected to the the

00:09:01
team. John Maxwell, the famous

00:09:03
leadership expert, had a idea called

00:09:05
walk the factory floor and he he meant

00:09:08
that every leader needs to know his

00:09:10
people, needs to take the time with him.

00:09:12
Um Ed Ed Kmol, who was the president of

00:09:15
Pixar Entertainment, is probably the

00:09:16
best example of this. You know, when

00:09:18
when Pixar does a blockbuster film, and

00:09:20
let's face it, about every film they do

00:09:22
is a blockbuster film, they may have up

00:09:24
to they may have more than a hundred

00:09:25
animators working on a a film, and if

00:09:28
that film reaches certain profit levels

00:09:31
per, you know, targets, they all get a

00:09:34
bonus. They all get a bump in their

00:09:36
their their pay. And so, in, you know,

00:09:39
today with direct deposit, it's so easy

00:09:41
for Ed to put just direct deposit that

00:09:44
bonus into everybody's account. But, you

00:09:46
know what he does? It's interesting. He

00:09:49
handwrites checks for everybody.

00:09:50
[snorts] It may be a hundred, more than

00:09:52
a hundred animators. He'll handw write

00:09:54
checks for everybody, schedule a time

00:09:57
where he can go individually into their

00:09:58
office or they can come to his office

00:10:00
and we'll sit down, chat with them, tell

00:10:02
them how much he appreciates their work,

00:10:04
and then hands them that bonus check.

00:10:07
Let me tell you that those employees at

00:10:10
Pixar would walk through a fire for Ed

00:10:12
Catmall. It's an amazing thing. And so

00:10:14
we don't I think we underestimate the

00:10:17
power of connecting with people. Uh that

00:10:19
we just don't realize how important that

00:10:21
is. So I think number one, let's make

00:10:23
sure we're connecting with people. You

00:10:24
know, you should know your your your

00:10:27
employees wives names, husband's names.

00:10:30
That's that kind of is important. Kids

00:10:32
names if possible. Maybe if you have a

00:10:33
huge organization that's not possible,

00:10:35
but as much as you you can get to know

00:10:38
everybody. The second thing is, and this

00:10:40
is interesting, Chris, you asked this

00:10:42
because I woke up the other night with

00:10:43
this question. Um, too often I think

00:10:46
leaders confuse creative, innovative

00:10:50
people who are kind of mavericks at what

00:10:53
they do. They they they want to approach

00:10:54
it in a different way than everybody

00:10:56
else with disgruntled, upset, kind of

00:11:00
what I would call calculating people.

00:11:02
Very often, um, an employee looks at an

00:11:05
employee, I mean, a a boss, a CEO, a

00:11:08
leader will look at his team and find

00:11:10
somebody that's really creative,

00:11:11
innovative, always wants to do something

00:11:13
different. Upsets the apple cart, and he

00:11:15
often will think, "Okay, I got to get

00:11:16
rid of that guy. He's not working out.

00:11:18
He's just driving everybody nuts." But

00:11:20
the truth is, he's really trying to take

00:11:22
things to a new level. He's just trying

00:11:24
to think differently than everybody

00:11:25
else. On the other hand, you have

00:11:27
someone that's very calculating and they

00:11:29
seem like a great team member, but the

00:11:31
truth is they're building a kingdom

00:11:33
inside your organization. They're

00:11:35
talking to people on their own. They're

00:11:37
working out relationships on their own

00:11:39
and it won't be long before that person

00:11:41
leaves and in very many cases will take

00:11:43
people with him. So, um, we have to just

00:11:45
be really aware. I'm I'm actually I

00:11:48
haven't talked to anybody about this,

00:11:49
but I'm working on a book about

00:11:52
leaders the importance of noticing

00:11:54
things. Very often leaders we're you

00:11:57
know leaders are busy. They're they're

00:11:59
all going at 90 miles an hour, but very

00:12:02
often we need to be better at noticing

00:12:04
things. And maybe it's because I spent

00:12:05
the first half of my career with a

00:12:06
camera in my hand walking around looking

00:12:09
through a lens, but I've just gotten

00:12:11
really good at noticing things. And I

00:12:13
will often when we consult with

00:12:15
organizations, I'll often see something

00:12:17
nobody else in the group noticed and

00:12:20
that little thing can often make a big

00:12:21
big difference.

00:12:22
Wow. Like you've written multiple books,

00:12:25
you do a lot of consulting. Somehow you

00:12:28
ended up in crisis management as well.

00:12:31
How how in the world did you end up in

00:12:33
crisis management and what was the

00:12:35
crisis?

00:12:36
Well, you know, as [laughter]

00:12:38
um there there have been some ugly ones,

00:12:40
Chris, I'll tell you that. Um, early in

00:12:43
my career, relatively early in my

00:12:44
career, I started getting calls from

00:12:46
leaders, sometimes CEOs, sometimes

00:12:48
pastors or ministry leaders or nonprofit

00:12:50
leaders who were going through a crisis.

00:12:52
And I thought, well, I'm not the

00:12:54
attorney, uh, and I'm not a counselor.

00:12:56
Why in the world are they calling me?

00:12:57
And it didn't take me long to realize,

00:12:59
I'm the communications guy. And the

00:13:01
problem in most of these cases was they

00:13:04
didn't know how to tell their employees

00:13:06
or how to tell their stockholders or how

00:13:08
to tell their church members or how to

00:13:10
tell the general public. They didn't

00:13:11
know if they should write a statement,

00:13:13
what it should say, should they talk to

00:13:15
reporters? And there's so many areas of

00:13:18
communication that go that swirl around

00:13:20
a crisis. And so I started going in and

00:13:23
just kind of consulting, advising them

00:13:24
on how to do certain things. And and and

00:13:27
trust me, a crisis can be a wide range

00:13:29
of things. Very often in the news, we

00:13:31
see, you know, a sexual crisis. Maybe

00:13:33
it's an abuse situation, maybe it's an

00:13:35
inappropriate affair or some other kind

00:13:37
of a sexual situation. But it's also

00:13:40
embezzlement is a huge problem in this

00:13:42
country. Um, sometimes it's the local

00:13:44
city government trying to, you know,

00:13:47
take part of your land or it could be a

00:13:49
kid, if you're a church, for instance,

00:13:50
it could be a kid that broke his leg on

00:13:52
the playground and the family is suing

00:13:54
the church. There's so many things that

00:13:55
could be considered a crisis. And so I

00:13:58
finally wrote a book called Church on

00:13:59
Trial. uh how to protect your

00:14:01
congregation mission and reputation

00:14:02
during a crisis, particularly for church

00:14:05
and nonprofit leaders because they

00:14:07
really get rung through the ringer

00:14:09
sometimes when they're going through a

00:14:10
difficult time. And I I just think that

00:14:13
leaders, and this would be a good theme

00:14:14
for our overall podcast here, leaders

00:14:16
need to understand that you cannot be a

00:14:18
leader today without understanding how

00:14:21
to communicate and why it matters. You

00:14:24
know, we live in a digital mediadriven

00:14:26
culture and if we don't as leaders learn

00:14:29
how to communicate our vision, learn how

00:14:31
to commun communicate our goals, uh the

00:14:33
things we want people to do, the

00:14:35
direction we're going, if we can't

00:14:37
communicate those well, we're just never

00:14:39
going to get very far. So, I having

00:14:42
spent my career communicating through

00:14:44
film, television, digital media, and

00:14:46
other things, I really have a passion to

00:14:48
help leaders understand just how

00:14:50
important that is.

00:14:51
Yeah. It's interesting because in the

00:14:53
corporate world, you see tons of crisis

00:14:55
management after firms do uh thousands

00:14:58
of layoffs via a virtual video that they

00:15:01
send out. And in the church world, you

00:15:03
reference some and in the nonprofit

00:15:04
world, there's a ton. Uh what are what

00:15:07
are some standard things that you think,

00:15:10
hey, regardless of big or small, and it

00:15:12
and I know it's helping leaders

00:15:14
communicate well, but what are some tips

00:15:15
that you give to leaders that help them

00:15:18
learn how to communicate badly? because

00:15:20
nobody communicates in a way that they

00:15:22
thought was badly until after all the

00:15:24
crisis blows up, right? And then it's

00:15:26
like, okay, I thought we did the right

00:15:27
thing. I don't think many people are bad

00:15:29
intentioned. Um, how do you deal with

00:15:31
that and train people?

00:15:32
You're exactly right. It's a great

00:15:34
question. I think one of the key things

00:15:35
is take it seriously. Uh, very often we

00:15:38
just assume we'll be able to

00:15:39
communicate. We assume our emails will

00:15:41
be okay, our social media posts will be

00:15:43
okay, but we really need to stop, take a

00:15:45
breath, take it seriously. For instance,

00:15:47
I'm a big advocate that if you do

00:15:50
presentations, whether it's for your

00:15:51
team or whether it's at conferences or

00:15:53
events, practice, practice, practice. So

00:15:56
often we wing it. I mean, I understand

00:15:58
I'm, you know, I'm traveling around the

00:16:00
world filming all the time and and I'm

00:16:02
thinking, you know, I don't really have

00:16:03
time to properly prepare. I'll be fine

00:16:05
when I get there. This is stuff I know.

00:16:07
Well, I get there and guess what? It's

00:16:09
not fine. And I've discovered that you

00:16:11
really need to take it seriously. So,

00:16:13
number one, practice. Practice in front

00:16:14
of the mirror. Record yourself. Set up a

00:16:17
camera, your iPhone, record yourself

00:16:19
doing that presentation. Play it back.

00:16:22
Look for weak spots. Look at pl look for

00:16:24
places where you stumble or say you know

00:16:26
or like those kind of things. Those are

00:16:29
very very important. Another area I

00:16:32
think is just ask people's advice. You

00:16:34
know, I have a group of people around me

00:16:36
that I know are great communicators and

00:16:38
if they're with me when I'm doing a

00:16:40
presentation or a talk somewhere, I want

00:16:42
to sit down with them immediately and

00:16:44
say, "What what did you think? How did

00:16:45
it go? What could I do better? You just

00:16:47
need to take it seriously. And I'll tell

00:16:49
you, social media is something we don't

00:16:50
take seriously enough. Um, very often

00:16:53
I've seen CEOs lose their job being

00:16:56
forced to step down because of a an

00:16:58
inappropriate social media post. Um,

00:17:01
just remember what you put out there

00:17:02
online never goes away. And emails, by

00:17:06
the way, Chris, let's talk about emails.

00:17:08
You know, Google has said that if if if

00:17:10
you have Gmail, for instance, Google has

00:17:12
said that you may hit the delete button

00:17:14
all day long, but that email never

00:17:15
really goes away. It stays on their

00:17:17
servers. And in a court appearance, they

00:17:20
can pull those up if they need to. I've

00:17:22
seen so many cases where text messages

00:17:25
that people thought they had deleted,

00:17:27
emails that people thought they had

00:17:28
deleted, guess what? They come up in an

00:17:31
investigation. So, uh, we have to be

00:17:34
very, very careful. I always tell

00:17:35
people, don't say anything in an email

00:17:37
that you wouldn't want shouted from the

00:17:38
housetops because you could be in a

00:17:40
situation where people know. I mean,

00:17:42
right now as we tape, Anthony Fouchy,

00:17:45
you know, from the Center for D disease

00:17:47
control is under Senate investigation

00:17:49
for the whole COVID thing. And whether

00:17:51
you like him or dislike him, the

00:17:53
interesting thing is his emails are

00:17:55
coming up, text messages are coming up,

00:17:58
letters that he thought he he destroyed

00:18:00
are coming up, it's just interesting how

00:18:02
those things never go away. So in a

00:18:04
digital world, we need to be very

00:18:06
careful with the way we communicate.

00:18:08
Wow. When when you're in the middle of a

00:18:11
crisis, uh typically you're responding,

00:18:14
I wouldn't say with adrenaline, but like

00:18:16
making quick decisions and you don't

00:18:18
have the time to think. So the

00:18:19
preparation comes in handy. Uh is there

00:18:21
ever and I'm sure there is, but how do

00:18:23
you manage how much to share along the

00:18:26
way? So you might share what you know

00:18:28
and how transparent do you actually get

00:18:30
when you don't you know you don't have

00:18:31
all the facts but you want to open it up

00:18:33
to the team and how do you handle that?

00:18:35
That's a great question and I'm a big

00:18:37
believer in being honest. You know I

00:18:39
think that uh too often we get in

00:18:40
trouble because we think you know I'm

00:18:42
trying to pres pro protect the

00:18:43
reputation of the company or trying to

00:18:45
protect someone's family or the victim

00:18:48
whatever. And so you don't want to share

00:18:50
inappropriate stuff. You don't want to

00:18:51
go into gory detail, but my advice is

00:18:54
almost always be honest from the get-go.

00:18:57
You know, you may not, as you said, you

00:18:59
may not have all the information at any

00:19:00
given moment, but be honest about what

00:19:03
you do know and what's happening. Here's

00:19:05
the thing I've discovered, Chris. Um,

00:19:07
when you when you're not honest, people

00:19:10
start guessing. You know, people being

00:19:12
people, they start guessing. And trust

00:19:14
me, what they come up with is much worse

00:19:16
in most cases than what actually

00:19:17
happened. Um, in fact, you'll find, it's

00:19:20
interesting to me that in a lot of the

00:19:22
crisis situations that have happened in

00:19:24
big churches in America over the last

00:19:26
couple years, for instance, the fact

00:19:28
that they communicated it so poorly was

00:19:32
almost as bad as what happened to begin

00:19:34
with the that caused the crisis. Um, the

00:19:37
way you communicate during a difficult

00:19:39
time is so critically important. And I

00:19:42
just want to never be in a situation

00:19:44
where you lied for whatever reason or

00:19:47
tried to cover up something for whatever

00:19:49
reason and it come back to haunt you and

00:19:51
bite you later because I believe me it

00:19:53
will it will. So, I always advise

00:19:55
clients um you don't go into gory

00:19:57
detail, particularly if a minor is

00:19:59
involved and there are certain, you

00:20:00
know, investigative rules with law

00:20:02
enforcement you have to be sensitive to,

00:20:04
but as much as possible, be honest from

00:20:06
the get-go because that takes away all

00:20:09
the ammo from the critics and it's very

00:20:11
difficult to criticize someone who's

00:20:13
putting it all out there and being

00:20:14
honest.

00:20:16
You you've learned a lot dealing with

00:20:18
all of these types of situations. uh you

00:20:21
talk a little bit I I forget in what

00:20:23
book you talk about this but you talk

00:20:25
about how organizations need some wise

00:20:27
gray hair uh giving counsel talk about

00:20:31
that and maybe in the context too of

00:20:33
servant leadership like we're we're

00:20:34
talking about how do you lead well and

00:20:37
why is it important to have that uh

00:20:39
experience behind you in all these

00:20:41
situations

00:20:43
um I wrote that on my blog at

00:20:45
philcook.com by the way cook with an e

00:20:47
for everybody that's watching or

00:20:48
listening Um, yeah, I wrote that on my

00:20:51
blog and I I another this funny for some

00:20:55
reason recently I've been waking up in

00:20:56
the middle of the night with ideas and

00:20:57
this thought occurred to me that um, you

00:21:00
know, recently we've had some situations

00:21:02
with Boeing, Verizon, Cracker Barrel,

00:21:05
other places where they went through a

00:21:07
crisis and they brought in a retired CEO

00:21:10
to run the organization at least for a

00:21:12
time. And um you may remember Cracker

00:21:15
Barrel had that whole catastrophe about

00:21:17
two years ago or maybe it's a year ago

00:21:19
uh where they updated the logo, tried to

00:21:21
update their stores and it just didn't

00:21:23
work out to say the least. And finally

00:21:26
their CEO stepped down who kind of was

00:21:29
ramrodding all those changes and they

00:21:31
went with a retired CE CEO from another

00:21:35
company who had a big restaurant chain.

00:21:37
And um the idea is let's bring in

00:21:40
somebody who's seasoned, who's been

00:21:41
there before, who's seen it all. And in

00:21:44
in some organizations, it may not be the

00:21:46
CEO you want to bring in, but I really

00:21:49
advocate that every organization have an

00:21:52
older leader on on the team, for

00:21:54
mentoring, for advice, just to to help

00:21:58
temper the conversation in the room. You

00:22:00
know, you never want to dis dis uh

00:22:02
qualify young, creative, innovative

00:22:05
ideas. I I want I want to

Surrounding with Experience

22:07
surround myself with the young guys with great

22:09
ideas, but at the same time, I want to

22:11
hear from an older guy who can say, "You

22:13
know what? We tried that, you know, 10

22:14
years ago and it here's what happened.

22:16
It it was a catastrophe or here's what

22:18
we you could do that would make it work

22:20
even better." Uh you can't replace

22:23
experience. And it's always funny that

22:25
the number of major companies that are

22:27
finding out that having that gray-haired

22:29
guy or woman on the team can really make

22:32
a dramatic difference. Yeah, that's

22:35
that's so good. I I forgot that it was

22:37
your blog. I've read a bunch of stuff

22:38
from there. Uh I think I think this is

22:41
from a book, but now I'm wondering if

22:42
it's from a blog. I thought I read a

22:44
book by you called One Big Thing. Maybe

22:45
it was a blog post, but it was longing.

22:48
Okay. I was going to say that was longer

22:50
than a blog post from my memory, but it

22:51
was years ago. Talk about Okay. Wasn't

22:55
that like a bestseller or wasn't that uh

22:58
like named one of the top business books

23:01
of the year?

One Big Thing

23:02
Yeah.

23:02
Talk about It was

23:04
about step one in the one big thing.

23:07
Well, I wrote the book because I'd spent

23:09
a lot of my career branding

23:11
organizations and going through the

23:13
whole process of helping them understand

23:15
what a brand is, what it takes to brand.

23:17
You know, a brand is essentially not

23:19
what you think of your company, it's

23:21
what they think, the customers, uh the

23:23
your members, whoever. And so I'd done

23:26
that for so many years and I it dawned

23:27
on me that you know the same principles

23:29
that I use to brand an organization can

23:32
be used to brand a person can really

23:34
help a person step out there. So you may

23:36
be a a writer, a musician, a leader, a

23:39
teacher, whatever you are. What is it?

23:42
And one of the things I discovered with

23:43
companies is the companies that really

23:45
blow up and do really amazing things are

23:48
originally companies that were created

23:50
to do one big thing. one big thing and

23:53
they do it in an extraordinary way. Now,

23:55
they may have ancillary divisions or

23:57
companies or R&D areas and things like

24:00
that, but by and large, Crispy Cream

24:02
Donuts makes amazing donuts. I don't

24:04
care what else they do. They're not

24:06
known for that. They make amazing

24:08
donuts. And so, I discovered that it

24:11
works with people. So, if you're

24:13
somebody that wants to get your name out

24:14
there, if you have ideas, if you have a

24:16
message the world needs to hear, maybe

24:18
we start with discovering, okay, what's

24:21
that one big thing that you could be

24:23
potentially the best in the world at? I

24:25
tell young film directors all the time

24:27
when they're coming to Hollywood, you

24:29
know, don't come to Hollywood to be a

24:30
film director. Come to Hollywood to be

24:33
the best director at a certain budget

24:35
level or a certain genre or a certain

24:37
style of film. Narrow it down. be the

24:40
best in the world at a very narrow niche

24:43
niche we say in the south niche they say

24:45
in Great Britain but um that that

24:49
understanding that one big thing what

24:51
could you be the best in the world at

24:52
and running everything through that

24:53
filter is really a remarkable thing and

24:55
that's what I wrote the book about and

24:57
it really gained a lot of traction and

24:59
it was a you know I I've I did early in

25:02
my career I directed a lot of sports

25:03
television and um I would be doing a

25:06
basketball game or boxing match for ESPN

25:09
and I would meet athletes who would tell

25:11
me, you know, Phil, I was just always

25:12
the fastest guy in my neighborhood and I

25:15
started focusing that that because I

25:16
realized that was my thing or I started

25:19
catching the ball better than anybody

25:20
else in the neighborhood. I started

25:21
focusing on that thing. So, I often ask

25:24
people, you know, I meet people all the

25:25
time who are in their 70s and they say,

25:27
you know, Phil, I I've worked my my

25:30
career, but I've done I'm pretty good at

25:32
a lot of things and I can't really tell

25:34
you what I was put on the earth to

25:36
accomplish. And that makes me so sad at

25:38
that age. And so rather than being

25:41
pretty good at a lot of things, I

25:43
encourage people focus on what's that

25:45
one big thing that you could be

25:47
absolutely amazing at doing and let's

25:50
put let's put that out there and focus

25:52
with everything we have and be

25:53
relentless on making that amazing.

Influence Lab Origins

25:56
That's so good. And I know that you're

25:59
helping a ton of leaders think through

26:01
that in their own life. uh talk about

26:03
what you've done with the influence lab

26:04
and how that got started and and what

26:06
you're trying to do there because it's

26:08
taking a lot of these lessons and then

26:09
helping other people.

26:11
Well, years ago I started getting uh

26:13
letters, emails from people around the

26:16
world asking me to come and teach about

26:18
media. And because of my connections in

26:20
Hollywood, having spent my career there,

26:22
I'm able to bring connect great

26:24
producers and writers and actors and

26:26
social media experts. And for instance,

26:30
two years ago, we went to Acra Ghana and

26:32
I brought in a acting teacher, a

26:35
director, a video editor, a social media

26:38
expert, a screenwriter, and we went over

26:41
there and did tracks and we brought in,

26:43
we had 350

26:45
filmmakers, church media producers,

26:48
corporate media producers from all over

26:50
Africa come for intensive week of

26:52
training. And I've just discovered the

26:54
hunger internationally for understanding

26:56
media and how to get your message out

26:58
there is huge. And so we've done similar

27:01
projects.

27:03
We've been to India four or five times.

27:05
We've been to done it in Russia. We've

27:07
done it in Australia. We've done it in

27:08
South America, South Africa. We've just

27:10
been all over the world doing it. And

27:12
it's a nonprofit. My wife Kathleen and I

27:14
pretty much pay for it ourselves. We

27:15
have a small group of people that have

27:17
come alongside to help. But it's just a

27:20
it's a powerful experience because

27:22
they're so hungry. They may not have the

27:24
best equipment in the world in some

27:26
cases, but man, do they have a dream.

27:28
And so we've worked with I just came

27:30
back about a month ago from Jordan where

27:33
we had media producers from all over the

27:35
Middle East come together for a week of

27:36
of training and and kind of inspiration

27:39
as much as anything too. And these were

27:42
these were not newbies. These were

27:44
people that are producing with secular

27:45
studios like Microsoft and Apple, people

27:48
like that. and doing amazing work in the

27:51
Middle East and they wanted to come and

27:53
just find out what's new, what should I

27:54
be thinking about, what should my

27:56
priorities be, those kind of things. And

27:58
it's just been really fantastic and

28:00
well, you can go to influencelab.com and

28:02
find out about it.

Rapidfire Questions

28:03
Wow, that's awesome that you're doing

28:05
that. I know a lot of people have been

28:06
impacted by it, so that is awesome. Uh,

28:09
I want to finish with 10 rapidfire

28:11
questions.

28:12
Oh, boy.

28:13
No wrong answer, but say the first thing

28:14
that comes to mind. Uh oh. Okay.

28:16
Who's the first person you think of when

28:19
I say servant leadership?

28:22
Um Jack Hayford probably pastor that we

28:25
had in LA for about 25 years. Uh just a

28:28
great man. I call him the Protestant

28:30
pope. Um he's just remarkable because he

28:32
he creates bridges to so many different

28:34
groups of people. And um he passed away

28:37
a number of years ago, but yeah,

28:39
probably Jack really taught me more

28:41
about that than anyone.

28:43
Wow. Uh, five words that most describe

28:45
you?

28:47
Well, obviously intelligent, attractive.

28:49.
Um, no. [laughter]

28:51
Let's see. U, I would say probably

28:54
maverick. I like to do things a little

28:56
differently than everybody else. Um,

28:58
certainly creative. I I' I've been

29:00
focused on creative my whole life. Um,

29:05
I'm a writer. I don't know if that's the

29:07
kind of word we're looking for, but I I

29:09
would write if I had to pay to do it

29:11
because I'm just obsessed with writing

29:12
and getting ideas down. So, I I'm a

29:15
relentless writer. I think that's

29:16
important. Um, noticer. I I I know I see

29:20
stuff that a lot of people don't see. It

29:22
drives my wife crazy sometimes, but I I

29:25
tend to see things a lot of people don't

29:26
notice in a crowd. I love watching

29:28
people. And um How am I doing? Is that

29:31
four or is that five?

29:32
Um,

29:33
yeah. I don't

29:36
um

29:38
I would probably say um

29:44
I don't know. I might leave number five

29:45
open. We'll get back to that later.

29:47
That was a solid four. All right. What

29:49
What's a book or author you'd recommend?

29:53
Um well, first of all, if you're a

29:55
leader and you haven't read John

29:56
Maxwell's body of work, I would

29:58
recommend you do that right away. I

29:59
mean, that's, you know, it's been it's

30:01
been a while since John, you know, was

30:02
on the bestseller list, but the fact is

30:04
his stuff is amazing and his his library

30:07
covers so much. I would encourage you to

30:09
do that. Um, I also I I also I entered

30:12
all the books I've been reading in a

30:14
chat GPT the other day and it said chat

30:17
GP's response was, "You may be the most

30:19
have have the most varied set of

30:22
interests of anybody I've ever talked

30:23
to." And uh it's true because I'm

30:26
putting history in there. I'm reading a

30:27
book right now on Billy the Kid. Um, I'm

30:30
reading a number of books on

30:31
communication and how to be more

30:33
effective at it. I'm reading a couple

30:34
novels. I've always got five or six

30:36
books I'm in the process of reading. So,

30:39
um, I may follow up and let you put that

30:41
in the notes.

30:42
All right. Favorite food?

30:45
Food? Um, oh boy. I'm a I'm a southern

30:49
guy, so I do like southern food, but

30:50
barbecue maybe. I love barbecue. But you

30:53
got to get, you know, you can't go to

30:55
the chain places. You've got to go to

30:56
places that have burn marks on the

30:58
ceiling, bullet bowling trophies in the

31:00
window, in a waitress that's a little

31:02
short with you. She's not she's a little

31:03
upset with you and they serve it on wax

31:06
paper. Those places, that's the place to

31:08
be for barbecue.

31:09
And a sign that doesn't say the full

31:11
name of the place as well. [laughter]

31:13
Or that's broken. Yes.

31:14
Yeah. Uh favorite thing to do in your

31:16
free time.

31:18
Um my wife and I travel a lot and we we

31:23
don't go on vacation so much. We just

31:25
add a few days on the end of a business

31:26
trip, maybe a filming project we're

31:28
doing. And we just are history buffs. We

31:31
are museum people. I love antiques. We

31:33
are always searching for, you know,

31:35
antique places. And um I'm, you know,

31:38
ultimately I think the ultimate word for

31:39
me might be explorer. If I if I lived in

31:42
another life, I would be um Louiswis and

31:46
Clark. I would want to be with guys like

31:48
that. I just love going to new places,

31:51
exploring new things, discovering new

31:53
food and stuff like that. So, I think

31:56
exploration about probably be the

31:57
biggest way to categorize me.

32:00
I love that. Uh, what's a surprising

32:02
fact about you?

32:05
Surprising fact about me? Um,

32:10
I don't know. I put everything out there

32:11
so much. I don't know that anybody that

32:13
I have much to hide. Um,

32:16
didn't you get shot at one time?

32:17
multiple times?

32:18
Yeah, I did. I got shot at. I fell out

32:20
of a helicopter once. Um, yeah, I was in

32:23
a I was shot in Nigeria. It was a

32:25
military coup and they were they were

32:28
stopping us at a blockade and I think I

32:30
look a little sketchy to the guy and and

32:32
uh a sentry way down the road aimed and

32:36
and shot at. Fortunately, he missed us.

32:38
Um, what Winston Churchill said,

32:40
"Nothing is exil as exhilarating as

32:42
being shot at uh in and having missed

32:45
and them having missed." Um, that's

32:48
true. But I fell out of a helicopter

32:49
filming in Jamaica. We didn't have me

32:51
strapped into the chopper, right? And

32:54
um, I just slid right out and I was

32:55
dangling by a rope. Boy, that'll get

32:57
you'll get right with God quick in those

32:59
situations. And the pilot saw it and he

33:02
jerked me back in and I got straightened

33:04
out really quick and we back went and

33:05
got the shot. That was the important

33:07
thing. We got the shot.

33:09
Yeah.

33:10
Is there is there anywhere in the world

33:11
you want to go that you have not been to

33:13
yet?

33:14
Um, I think probably uh northern

33:17
regions, Greenland, Iceland. I've not

33:20
been to the Arctic or the Antarctic for

33:22
that matter. I've not been in places

33:23
like that. U most other places I've

33:25
been, but I would love to go there. Um

33:29
Wow.

33:29
Yeah, that would be fun.

33:31
All right, three more. Best advice

33:32
you've ever received.

33:35
Um, best advice I've ever received is

33:39
it's no matter how good you are at your

33:42
job, your skill at handling people is

33:46
far more important. Um, I don't care how

33:49
what a great leader you are, a great

33:51
teacher you are, real estate salesman,

33:53
but if you can't deal with people well,

33:56
you're never going to go very far. And

33:58
and I've just learned to be a networker,

33:59
be conversational with people. I can

34:01
start a conversation with anybody. And

34:03
um I'll tell you, it's done me so much

34:05
good in my career just as a leader to be

34:08
able to engage with people from every

34:10
walk of life you can imagine. That's

34:12
been huge for me.

34:14
Wow. Uh this might lead into that then.

34:16
Um what is one thing you think people

34:19
should do after listening to this

34:20
podcast?

34:21
Okay.

34:22
Uh immediately go to my website and read

34:24
everything I've ever written. Of course,

34:25
now I'm teasing. Um, what they should do

34:28
after this is, okay, let me I'll do a

34:32
variation. Think about being

34:36
we live in a mediadriven culture and

34:38
there's so many people on our teams that

34:40
are creative. One of my pet peeves

34:43
recently is that there's a million books

34:45
on leadership out there. There's ve very

34:48
little on leading creative people. And I

34:51
think as a leader, I would encourage

34:53
listeners and viewers to to focus on how

34:56
to inspire and motivate the creative

34:58
people on your team. Remember, the

34:59
creative people on your team are the

35:01
ones that are getting your message out

35:03
there in a big way. They're doing your

35:04
advertising, your promotion, maybe your

35:06
television program, whatever you're

35:07
doing. They're getting your story out

35:09
there in a really significant way for

35:12
millions of people that you couldn't

35:13
possibly reach. And so, what could be

35:15
more important than knowing how to

35:17
inspire and motivate them to do amazing

35:19
work? The problem is we see in most

35:21
companies, everybody celebrates the

35:22
salespeople, everybody celebrates the

35:24
marketing people or, you know, the

35:25
accountants, whatever, which is great.

35:28
But I'll tell you, your creative team

35:30
can do far more for you, your message,

35:33
your vision, than you ever dream. And

35:35
so, learning to inspire and motivate

35:36
them and encourage them could be the

35:39
most important thing you do as a leader.

Importance of Servant Leadership

35:41
Wow. I love that. All right. Finally,

35:44
why should people care about becoming

35:46
better servant leaders?

35:48
You know what? Because people notice.

35:50
People notice. Uh we talked about brands

35:52
a minute ago. It's not what you think it

35:54
is, it's what they think it is. And it's

35:57
that that way with s with servant

35:59
leadership. Um people notice. People see

36:02
that you're not a jerk. They see that

36:04
you're not just the guy or woman on high

36:06
dictating orders to the, you know,

36:08
regular folks below. Um they see that

36:11
you're willing to get in there. I liken

36:12
it a lot to great leaders in battle.

36:15
They were the guys in the front lines.

36:17
They were leading the team. They weren't

36:19
just in the back ordering everybody

36:20
around. They were up there fighting in

36:23
front of every They were leading people.

36:24
So, I like that in that analogy in

36:27
business. You should be in the trenches.

36:29
You should be getting dirty with your

36:30
team. They see that and man, they see

36:34
somebody. I could stand with that man or

36:36
that woman. I could really, we could go

36:38
places. I think that will inspire more

36:41
people than anything else you could do.

Closing Remarks

36:44
Wow. Well, Phil, thank you for sharing

36:46
some awesome stories and a ton of

36:47
wisdom. Uh, I'm just thankful you said

36:49
yes to being on the podcast.

36:51
Well, I'm thrilled. Thank you for asking

36:53
me. And you're great questions, by the

36:54
way. Great. Now, I'm going to go back

36:56
and be up all night long thinking about

36:57
what I should have answered for most of

36:59
them, but that's that's life. [snorts]

37:01
Thank you for listening to this episode

37:03
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

37:06
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

37:08
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

37:10
below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit

37:14
the notification bell to never miss an

37:16
update. Be sure to check out the servant

37:18
leadership podcast.org for more updates

37:20
and additional bonus content.