00:00:00
There was a a situation I was in uh in

00:00:02
ministry uh 20 years ago this week

00:00:05
actually that um created such hurt and

00:00:08
betrayal and and uh and loneliness and I

00:00:11
didn't quite know what to do with it.

00:00:13
And I found myself as a leader saying

00:00:15
I'm not sure where to go with this. I'm

00:00:17
not sure who to talk to.

00:00:18
I need to handle this appropriately but

00:00:20
I'm not sure how. And so it was from

00:00:22
that process of basically saying what is

00:00:25
failure? And I began to realize that how

00:00:27
you define failure will always define

00:00:30
you.

00:00:37
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

00:00:39
we welcome J.R. Briggs, the founder of

00:00:42
Cairo Partnerships.

00:00:44
JR has devoted his work to serving

00:00:46
leaders through writing, coaching, and

00:00:48
speaking. He's the author of several

00:00:50
books, including Fail and The Art of

00:00:52
Asking Better Questions.

00:00:54
J.R.'s 's mission in life is to grow

00:00:56
fruit on other people's trees and to

00:00:58
keep his focus pointed [music] out

00:01:00
toward the people he serves.

00:01:02
In this conversation, Jr. shares how the

00:01:04
[music] way we define failure and

00:01:06
success ends up defining us. Join us as

00:01:09
we better understand how the quality of

00:01:11
your life rises and falls on the quality

00:01:13
of your questions and what it really

00:01:15
means to be a servant who leads rather

00:01:17
than a leader who serves.

00:01:19
Jr., thank you for joining us on the

00:01:21
servant leadership podcast.

00:01:22
I'm happy to be with you. looking

00:01:24
forward to this conversation. Chris,

00:01:26
this feels so full circle for me because

00:01:29
I first heard you talk when I was in

00:01:31
college and I I even went back to my

00:01:34
notes and was thinking about like this

00:01:36
interview and I was reading my notes

00:01:38
from over a decade ago and it was all

00:01:41
about failure and I didn't realize how

00:01:44
much from that thread like actually has

00:01:47
had an impact on me because there's been

00:01:49
a ton of failure. Uh but at the same

00:01:51
point it was such good content. talk to

00:01:54
our audience about how you really like

00:01:56
fell into becoming like a failure

00:01:58
expert, which is kind of a crazy

00:02:00
concept. [laughter]

00:02:02
And Chris, I love how you worded that

00:02:04
because sometimes people introduce me as

00:02:05
this guy literally wrote the book on

00:02:07
failure, guys. Like, [laughter] and so I

00:02:10
don't know if I succeeded in talking

00:02:12
about failure or failed in failure, but

00:02:15
that makes me a success. I don't know,

00:02:16
but it can drive you crazy. But I think

00:02:18
you use the word fell. How did you fall

00:02:20
into this? And you know, that's what

00:02:22
failure is. It's it's a fall in some

00:02:24
way. And um I won't go into the whole

00:02:27
story, but um yeah, there there was a a

00:02:29
situation I was in uh in ministry uh 20

00:02:33
years ago this week actually, that um

00:02:35
created such hurt and betrayal and and

00:02:38
uh and loneliness. And I didn't quite

00:02:40
know what to do with it. And I found

00:02:42
myself as a leader saying, "I'm not sure

00:02:44
where to go with this. I'm not sure who

00:02:46
to talk to. I need to handle this

00:02:48
appropriately, but I'm not sure how."

00:02:50
And so it was from that process of

00:02:52
basically saying what is failure? And I

00:02:55
began to realize that how you define

00:02:57
failure will always define you. How your

00:03:00
organization, your business, your

00:03:02
nonprofit, your family, your church, how

00:03:05
that defines failure will define your

00:03:08
ministry, nonprofit, your business, your

00:03:10
organization. But it's conversely

00:03:13
conversely you can say the same thing.

00:03:14
How you define success will define you

00:03:16
as well. And so this was a really saying

00:03:20
what did I fail at? You know, what what

00:03:22
actually am I a failure? Um what did I

00:03:25
learn from it? Why are we so afraid of

00:03:27
it in our culture? Um why are we deathly

00:03:30
afraid of it? Uh to the point that some

00:03:32
people say I'd rather die than fail in

00:03:34
some certain areas. And so um that

00:03:37
really got me going down the rabbit hole

00:03:39
of how do I define who I am? Where does

00:03:41
that metric quote unquote metric of

00:03:44
success or failure come from? and how do

00:03:47
I align my life around that metric? And

00:03:50
um so it there's a lot to unpack there,

00:03:52
but it was through my own painful

00:03:54
experience that quite honestly, Chris,

00:03:57
I'm still extracting shrapnel from my

00:03:59
heart after two decades. Um but

00:04:02
hopefully I'm stewarding that in a way

00:04:04
that has been helpful and hopeful for

00:04:07
both me and for other people.

00:04:09
How did you define failure? And and as

00:04:11
you thought of it, was it something that

00:04:13
you felt like was personal to you or was

00:04:15
it transferable to others?

00:04:17
Yeah, great question. I think there's on

00:04:18
two levels. One is your overall like

00:04:20
life, you know, fail success. What does

00:04:23
that look like? Um, and Chris, you know

00:04:25
that I'm a follower of Jesus. And so,

00:04:27
one of the things that, you know,

00:04:29
there's a there's a parable of the

00:04:31
talents, you know, one, two, and five

00:04:32
talents. And the master comes and hands

00:04:34
them out. And and, uh, one doesn't

00:04:37
handle them very well. He actually

00:04:39
buries it in the ground and he's very um

00:04:42
fearful of about um how the master might

00:04:45
respond. And and so what's interesting

00:04:47
in that is we will never hear uh the

00:04:51
master say to us well done good and

00:04:52
successful servant. It will only be well

00:04:55
done good and faithful servant. And so

00:04:58
how do I define quote unquote success

00:05:00
around faithfulness? Sure there are

00:05:02
metrics and there are numbers but what

00:05:04
does it mean? And I think about this,

00:05:06
David Brooks talks about the difference

00:05:07
between eulogy virtues and resume

00:05:09
virtues. And when we think about that,

00:05:12
oftentimes in our world, we value,

00:05:14
especially in our North American

00:05:16
context, we value things that can be

00:05:19
measured on a resume. He doubled the

00:05:22
company in five years. You know, she

00:05:24
generated, you know, 80% new revenue.

00:05:27
Um, you know, he or she graduated with a

00:05:30
PhD in in a from a prestigious

00:05:32
university.

00:05:34
But when you think about a eulogy, what

00:05:37
people really remember you about when

00:05:39
you're in a casket

00:05:42
is they're not saying, "You know what?

00:05:43
She was the first one in the office and

00:05:45
the last one to leave every day. You

00:05:47
know, he he doubled the the the

00:05:50
company's income for five straight

00:05:51
quarters." No, they say things like, you

00:05:54
know, he was the best uncle I ever had.

00:05:57
You know, um he was a friend that

00:05:59
believed in me before I believed before

00:06:01
I even believed in myself. you know, he

00:06:03
showed me what was truly important. She

00:06:06
loved me even when I didn't deserve it.

00:06:08
And so, we've got to orient our lives

00:06:11
around either resume virtues or eulogy

00:06:14
virtues. And I think the first half of

00:06:16
life is we think it's all about the

00:06:18
resume virtues until we realize the

00:06:20
second half of life when there's more

00:06:22
maturity, it's actually about the res or

00:06:24
the eulogy virtues and how we cultivate

00:06:26
those. So there's a lot there to unpack

00:06:28
for sure, but I would just encourage all

00:06:31
of us uh and all of your listeners to

00:06:33
really think long and hard of how do I

00:06:35
define success quote unquote success and

00:06:38
failure and because that's going to

00:06:41
define us. So the failure is on a big

00:06:43
level but also on I'll call a lowercase

00:06:47
failure of uh sometimes you know there

00:06:50
are there are goals to meet there are

00:06:52
quotas that need to be to be met there

00:06:55
are uh things that just need to occur

00:06:57
right I can fail a class um in in school

00:07:01
I can get fired from a job but at the

00:07:05
same time um thinking through what is my

00:07:07
ultimate goal and so we've always got to

00:07:09
be thinking our sort of lowercase

00:07:11
failure through the lens of what

00:07:13
actually is failure or success on the

00:07:16
broader level. Who defines that? How is

00:07:18
it defined? And what does healthy,

00:07:21
faithful stewardship look like of that

00:07:23
success or failure?

00:07:24
Yeah, I love that you're coming at it

00:07:26
from a faith standpoint. How do you

00:07:28
balance it when um it feels like every I

00:07:32
mean, I've got little kids, right? and

00:07:34
and everything we talk about is about

00:07:37
winning and success and success in

00:07:40
sports is winning or getting goals or

00:07:42
getting assists or whatever it ends up

00:07:44
being. Um hitting a home run or just

00:07:47
making a hit like it's all transactional

00:07:49
success, right? And I agree with you on

00:07:52
the other success, but how have you seen

00:07:54
the setup of those kind of worldly

00:07:57
successes hurt the ability for people to

00:08:00
see like spiritual stewardship and

00:08:02
spiritual success play out later?

00:08:04
Great. And you hit on the right word and

00:08:06
that's stewardship. Um, for me, one of

00:08:10
the most important questions I can ask

00:08:11
myself is what is my motive? Why is it

00:08:15
that I want to be successful in this?

00:08:17
Now, there are some people that take it

00:08:18
so far the other direction that they

00:08:20
say, "Well, it's just about

00:08:21
faithfulness. We don't really care about

00:08:22
success." And so, what they do is very

00:08:24
shoddy work. They don't come in

00:08:27
prepared. They're very unprofessional.

00:08:29
They lack excellence. And here's the

00:08:31
secret. No one wants to be around people

00:08:33
like that. No one wants to work with or

00:08:35
for people like that. We should strive

00:08:37
for excellence in all that we do. And we

00:08:40
see that actually throughout scripture.

00:08:41
You know, Paul says, "Run in such a way

00:08:43
as to win the prize." Well, why? because

00:08:46
that's important. But what's my motive

00:08:48
in that? Is it to show off? Is it to be

00:08:51
successful? Is it to be become rich and

00:08:53
famous? Is it to make myself feel better

00:08:55
about me? Or is there something greater?

00:08:58
Am I living for someone or something

00:09:01
beyond myself? And I think we can do

00:09:04
that. You know, you as a father, um,

00:09:06
you're doing that by trying to instill

00:09:08
that in your kids, right? And so my

00:09:10
guess is that your definition of success

00:09:13
even as a a father, a faith oriented,

00:09:16
faith saturated father that changed than

00:09:19
when you were younger in high school,

00:09:21
right? Your definition of failure or

00:09:23
success has changed. Um because now

00:09:25
you've got a family and and so that is a

00:09:29
tough balance that requires a ton of

00:09:31
wisdom. A ton of wisdom and humility to

00:09:35
really be honest with ourselves of

00:09:36
asking what is my motive? Is it that all

00:09:40
the attention and praise comes to me?

00:09:42
Look at me. I'm so amazing. Or is it

00:09:44
often to give us a platform to be able

00:09:46
to use that uh to something greater and

00:09:49
something bigger than us. And so that's

00:09:51
that's a convicting and clarifying

00:09:53
question for me. What is my motive? And

00:09:56
um one of the prayers that I pray often,

00:09:59
Chris, is that um Lord, would you grant

00:10:02
me more influence and more obscurity?

00:10:05
And most of the time I like that

00:10:07
question. And sometimes I have to pray

00:10:09
that with with gritted teeth. And the

00:10:12
reason being is I don't always want

00:10:14
obscurity. Um but I want to live my life

00:10:17
in such a way. My life mission is to

00:10:18
grow fruit on other people's trees.

00:10:21
But oftentimes that means um that I

00:10:24
don't get the attention. I don't get the

00:10:26
notoriety. Uh people don't know it's me.

00:10:29
Um there's a lot of invisibility in

00:10:30
that. And I'm I'm okay with that most

00:10:32
days. But there are other days that my

00:10:34
pride gets in the way really big time in

00:10:37
the way where I want to say hey I taught

00:10:39
them that you know she learned that from

00:10:41
me you know I mentored that person for

00:10:43
five years and look where they are now

00:10:45
and that's where I've really got to be

00:10:47
careful what is my motive and so yeah

00:10:50
how that is an incredibly important uh

00:10:55
question to ask especially as people of

00:10:57
faith

00:10:58
but let's make sure we don't do things

00:11:01
shoddily

00:11:02
uh unexcellently, but let's make sure we

00:11:05
do it with the right motives when we're

00:11:07
being excellent in all that we do.

00:11:09
Yeah. I mean, you talk about your

00:11:11
personal mission being to grow fruit on

00:11:13
other people's trees. I I love that. Um

00:11:18
I'm not sure that the average person

00:11:20
who's less thoughtful than you, i.e.

00:11:23
myself, uh even thinks about like what

00:11:26
is our personal mission? How did you get

00:11:28
to a place where you're like, "Hey, I

00:11:30
really want to think through this stuff

00:11:31
at a deeper level, come up with a

00:11:33
personal mission, and then how have you

00:11:35
seen that play out like or actually like

00:11:37
chosen to live that out? What what's

00:11:39
changed in your life because of it?"

00:11:41
Yeah. Well, I love that the word

00:11:43
decision comes from the Latin word dere,

00:11:45
which means to cut or to cut away, which

00:11:48
means that any decision we make, it

00:11:50
isn't just about what we decide. We're

00:11:52
actually choosing to actually push and

00:11:54
cut things away, and what remains is our

00:11:56
decision. Silly example, for every book

00:11:59
that I read, I'm cutting away thousands

00:12:03
if not millions of other books not to

00:12:05
read. And so, or when you get married,

00:12:07
you say, "Forsaking all others, right?

00:12:09
I'm marrying this person, but I'm

00:12:10
pushing away everybody else in this

00:12:12
decision." And so, for me, I wanted some

00:12:15
clarity with a mission statement to be

00:12:17
able to say, "Why do I exist?" And to

00:12:20
wake up every day and say, "This is

00:12:22
driving me." And also to evaluate, talk

00:12:25
about success and failure. Did I do

00:12:27
that? Did I grow fruit on other people's

00:12:29
trees today? Or was it just about me?

00:12:32
Our family has a motto which we call

00:12:34
APO. Um it stands for arrows pointing

00:12:37
out. A lot of people live with their

00:12:39
arrows pointing in. Look at me. They

00:12:41
walk in a room, here I am. Look at me.

00:12:44
But we want to be the kinds of people as

00:12:46
the Briggs family that the arrows are

00:12:48
pointing out. So when we walk in a room,

00:12:49
we say, "There you are. Look at you."

00:12:52
and that the value and the attention is

00:12:54
on other people because we really

00:12:56
believe that life is best lived when we

00:12:58
live beyond ourselves. And so if life

00:13:01
was best lived beyond ourselves, I

00:13:02
thought, well, how do I do that? And I

00:13:05
love seeing I just find great joy in

00:13:08
people vicarious vicariously living

00:13:11
through the joy of people succeeding and

00:13:14
thriving and growing. And I thought, you

00:13:16
know, that's what I love. Um, and I I

00:13:19
I'd uh I know your listeners can't can't

00:13:21
see this, but I've I've got this little

00:13:23
thing on my desk here, which is uh it's

00:13:26
hard to describe, but it's it's a guy

00:13:28
who is planting a sapling, but

00:13:30
underneath is is actually a big oak tree

00:13:32
that the next generation enjoys with

00:13:35
birds and children swinging from it.

00:13:37
That's what I want to live. And that's

00:13:39
why I've got it right here under my

00:13:40
monitor uh to look at every day as my

00:13:43
life of my life mission is to plant

00:13:45
saplings and grow fruit on other

00:13:46
people's trees. Other people may not be

00:13:48
thoughtful with that. That's fine. But I

00:13:50
would simply ask your friends and

00:13:53
yourself and ask God, um God, why am I

00:13:56
put why have I been put here on this

00:13:58
earth? Um and that can be a esoteric and

00:14:01
and sort of a a big question, maybe too

00:14:05
big or vague. So, I like to ask people,

00:14:07
when are you most alive?

00:14:10
What drains you the most as well? But to

00:14:12
notice those times where you feel most

00:14:14
alive, almost like there's an electric

00:14:16
current running through your body and to

00:14:18
say, "Huh, maybe there's something here

00:14:21
to teach me about what jazzes me about

00:14:24
how I'm made, about how I'm wired, and

00:14:26
about how I can steward this one and

00:14:29
only one life that I've been given. How

00:14:32
do I steward that?" Well,

00:14:34
I love that. And an interesting thing

00:14:36
when you talk about the arrows pointing

00:14:38
out which I've never heard that analogy

00:14:40
but I really like it. Um

00:14:43
certain people came to my mind of in my

00:14:46
life who I'm surrounded by and there's

00:14:48
certain people who it's like man they

00:14:50
live to put fruit on other people's

00:14:52
trees and they're the best people to be

00:14:54
around. So that's that's a cool mission

00:14:57
that you have as your personal mission

00:14:58
but also for the people like it's just

00:15:00
good insight for other people to take

00:15:02
away of like that's something we all

00:15:04
should be doing. Um, one of the things I

00:15:06
know that you've been doing your whole

00:15:08
life, but and in the last couple years

00:15:10
is asking a lot of questions. Wrote, you

00:15:12
wrote a book on it even. Talk about how

00:15:14
the book came to be and talk about the

00:15:17
book a little bit for our audience to

00:15:19
hear.

00:15:20
Yeah. Well, Chris, it relates very well

00:15:22
to what you just said because talk about

00:15:24
people with their arrows pointing out. I

00:15:26
began to notice the difference between

00:15:28
people who were really inspiring, lived

00:15:31
really exciting lives. They were

00:15:33
maximizers. They they just illuminated

00:15:36
other people. And then I also noticed

00:15:38
another group of people that they kind

00:15:40
of diminished people and they didn't

00:15:43
they lived uninspiring small lives. And

00:15:45
I thought, I don't really want to be

00:15:46
like them.

00:15:47
I mean, they're great people, I'm sure,

00:15:48
but I don't want to be like I want to be

00:15:49
like these people over here. And I began

00:15:51
to ask, what's the difference? And

00:15:54
Chris, I began to notice that this group

00:15:55
over here who lived inspiring lives,

00:15:57
they lived with their errors pointed

00:15:59
out. I said, 'Okay, but what does that

00:16:00
mean? They were generous. They served.

00:16:03
They gave people a full-bodied yes. They

00:16:05
paid attention to others. Um, they were

00:16:08
living for something larger than

00:16:09
themselves. But what on a practical

00:16:11
level, Chris, they asked great

00:16:14
questions.

00:16:15
They asked Christ great questions of

00:16:16
God, of themselves, and of others. And

00:16:20
because of that, everyone was better off

00:16:22
because of it. And so for me, I began to

00:16:25
study this, realize this, notice this,

00:16:27
and then seek out people who ask great

00:16:29
questions. One of those, fortunately,

00:16:31
was my dad. Um, and then I began to

00:16:33
notice in in the Bible that Jesus is

00:16:36
described as the way, the truth, and the

00:16:37
life. But he also asked a ton of

00:16:39
questions. A ton. Way more than we

00:16:42
think. In fact, Jesus asked over 300

00:16:45
questions recorded in the Gospels. He's

00:16:47
asked over 180 and he only directly

00:16:51
answers five of them. And so Jesus

00:16:53
really wrestles with and embodies and

00:16:56
embraces the idea of questions as well.

00:16:59
And we study his miracles as Christians.

00:17:01
We study his parables, his healings, the

00:17:03
stories. We don't often study his

00:17:06
questions. And I think we miss out

00:17:08
because of it. And so because of that, I

00:17:10
I when I went to get my doctorate, I

00:17:12
studied um and the the whole subject of

00:17:16
it was uh equipping leaders to ask

00:17:18
better questions in the way that Jesus

00:17:20
asked. And um I wrote my dissertation on

00:17:23
it. By the way, no one wants to read my

00:17:25
dissertation. I wrote it and I don't

00:17:26
want to read it. But I thought the the

00:17:28
research here is really good and I think

00:17:30
I can boil this down to bring the

00:17:32
cookies to the bottom shelf for people

00:17:34
that say, "Yeah, I think questions are

00:17:36
important, but but why are they

00:17:38
important?" and how do I grow in them?

00:17:39
And so that came about to uh to come to

00:17:42
the the book, The Art of Asking Better

00:17:44
Questions. And if your uh listeners want

00:17:47
to read it, great. If they don't, here's

00:17:49
the whole book in one sentence. The

00:17:50
quality of your life is determined by

00:17:53
the quality of the questions that you

00:17:55
ask God, yourself, and others.

00:17:57
Wow.

00:17:58
And stop. That's it. So, if that doesn't

00:18:00
interest you, don't worry about it. You

00:18:02
know, if you don't want to have a a more

00:18:04
quality life, forget it. And that's

00:18:05
totally fine. But for those who do, I

00:18:08
really believe that the quality of your

00:18:10
life is determined by the quality of the

00:18:12
questions you ask God, yourself, and

00:18:14
others.

00:18:16
When you talk about the quality of the

00:18:17
questions, I mean, that could go a lot

00:18:21
of directions. What makes good

00:18:22
questions? And what kind of questions

00:18:24
should people like where do you even

00:18:26
start?

00:18:27
Yeah, great. Great. You're asking great

00:18:29
questions. Let me just affirm that. I

00:18:31
know it's getting meta here, Chris, but

00:18:33
um there's a there's a woman named uh

00:18:35
Heather Hollowman. She teaches at Penn

00:18:37
State uh university and she wrote a book

00:18:39
called the six conversations and she

00:18:41
said all questions are about clarity and

00:18:44
engagement. Sometimes we need to just

00:18:46
ask questions like what time is it or

00:18:48
you know do I turn left or right here?

00:18:51
But engagement, connection, trust,

00:18:54
that's that second piece. And so I

00:18:56
really believe that good questions force

00:18:59
us to participate in things that we

00:19:02
would not have participated in

00:19:03
previously. could be new thinking, new

00:19:06
ways of creativity, new perspective, um

00:19:09
new ways of engaging with other people.

00:19:11
But we live in a world that has a lot of

00:19:13
obstacles that keep us from asking good

00:19:15
questions. But I think all great

00:19:18
questions have four components. They

00:19:20
they have to have curiosity, they have

00:19:22
to have wisdom, they have to have

00:19:24
humility, and they have to have courage.

00:19:27
I just don't know how you ask a genuine

00:19:29
question without some sense of

00:19:30
curiosity, right? But also, I need

00:19:33
wisdom.

00:19:34
because I could ask 10,000 different

00:19:36
questions. How do I know what the right

00:19:38
question to ask is at the right time to

00:19:41
the right person for the right motive?

00:19:44
But I also need humility because I'm

00:19:46
admitting if I ask a question, I don't

00:19:48
know. I don't know something. And that

00:19:51
takes some humility to do that and to

00:19:53
wait patiently for their answer. And

00:19:55
then lastly, courage. Sometimes the

00:19:57
questions we ask if we're when we admit

00:20:00
I don't know, that takes courage in in a

00:20:02
setting. But also good questions invite

00:20:07
appropriate vulnerability and when

00:20:09
there's vulnerability it always requires

00:20:11
courage. So there's a lot of levels we

00:20:13
could go on that but I I really think

00:20:14
that um good questions the difference

00:20:17
between good questions and great

00:20:18
questions often is the level of impact

00:20:20
that happens when there's curiosity,

00:20:22
wisdom, humility and courage that all

00:20:24
come together.

00:20:26
Wow. How have you seen some of the

00:20:28
questions you ask change with with the

00:20:30
thoughts? because you even bring up

00:20:32
Jesus as the example and a lot of times

00:20:34
he asked a question you may have already

00:20:36
known the answer to but he's asking the

00:20:39
question to get the other person to

00:20:40
think like how do you weigh all of that

00:20:42
and how you think about questions now

00:20:45
yes and and I I studied in my time Jesus

00:20:48
asked 27 different types of questions uh

00:20:51
from uh you know even non-verbal

00:20:55
questions right I mean we can we can ask

00:20:56
non-verbal questions in our body

00:20:58
language you know I Right. I mean, your

00:21:01
viewers can't see that, but I can use my

00:21:03
hands and my face to say what, but I

00:21:05
didn't have to say anything. And so,

00:21:07
yeah, there's lots of different ways and

00:21:09
lots of different impacts that we can

00:21:11
have uh when it comes to to questions.

00:21:13
And Jesus used that masterfully. Um he

00:21:17
knew that questions force us to engage

00:21:21
and act. Sometimes they're rhetorical.

00:21:24
Sometimes Jesus even looked like he was

00:21:26
playing naive on the road to Emmas when

00:21:29
he he's talking. He said, "What things

00:21:31
are you talking about?" It almost like

00:21:32
he has this smirk that he knows. But

00:21:35
he's just getting them to engage in

00:21:37
talk. Um and so I mean what's

00:21:40
interesting too is that Jesus said, "I I

00:21:42
never do anything I don't see my father

00:21:45
doing." And the Old Testament is full of

00:21:47
God the Father, the first person of the

00:21:49
Trinity, asking a bunch of questions.

00:21:51
And you think, "Wait a second. I thought

00:21:53
God knew everything. But to your point,

00:21:55
like you said, God asks us questions not

00:21:58
because he needs to know, but because we

00:22:01
need to know. And think about Adam and

00:22:03
Eve in the garden when they sin. He he

00:22:06
says, "Where are you?" He He's not

00:22:08
looking at his GPS going, "I can't find

00:22:10
them. Where'd they go?" Um he is wanting

00:22:13
Adam and Eve to locate where they are.

00:22:15
And that is not a geographical question.

00:22:17
That is a relational and spiritual

00:22:19
question that he's asking. Where are

00:22:20
you? And so I I think it is an

00:22:23
incredible gift that the God of the

00:22:27
universe who knows everything would

00:22:29
still ask questions to lower himself

00:22:32
with humility

00:22:34
to our level as a way of drawing us

00:22:37
closer to himself.

00:22:39
And that it just continues to blow my

00:22:41
mind. You know, we do that with our kids

00:22:43
when our kids are little. We're asking

00:22:45
our kids questions that we know the

00:22:47
answer to, but we're doing it as a way

00:22:49
of showing we're paying attention and we

00:22:52
want to be in relationship with you and

00:22:53
we want to engage with you and share

00:22:55
something to deepen trust. And I just am

00:22:58
so grateful that God is not some distant

00:23:01
deity, but he's the kind of God that is

00:23:04
willing to engage in relationship with

00:23:06
us.

00:23:08
Yeah. We talk a ton about servant

00:23:10
leadership on the podcast and a lot of

00:23:12
people listening servant leadership

00:23:14
might resonate immediately or it might

00:23:16
just be they they love leadership

00:23:17
lessons. Uh you bump into all kinds of

00:23:21
leaders through coaching and different

00:23:23
talks you do, conferences you speak at,

00:23:25
whatnot. What question should leaders be

00:23:28
asking that they're not asking right

00:23:30
now?

00:23:31
Yeah. Well, the first one and we

00:23:33
mentioned already is what is my motive?

00:23:35
Because if leaders have a poor motive,

00:23:38
it can hurt not only themselves but a

00:23:40
whole bunch of other people. And so

00:23:42
we've got to be really careful with

00:23:44
that. Another question that I constantly

00:23:46
ask myself and I teach other leaders to

00:23:49
ask that uh the question as well is how

00:23:53
can I add value to the person or persons

00:23:56
that are right in front of me?

00:23:58
You know, our job is to to serve others.

00:24:01
I think one of the best definitions I've

00:24:03
heard of leadership is helping others

00:24:05
succeed. And so if other people succeed,

00:24:08
that means that I've got to do what I

00:24:10
can to serve them so that that can

00:24:12
happen. And so how can I add value? How

00:24:14
can I serve the person in front of me?

00:24:16
Uh is a really important question. You

00:24:18
know, you talk about servant leadership,

00:24:20
uh, Chris, shortly after graduating from

00:24:22
college, um, I had a mentor in my early

00:24:24
20s, early to mid20s, and and we talked

00:24:28
about servant leadership over Chipotle,

00:24:29
and we do that every every month or so.

00:24:31
And Tom asked me the question. He said,

00:24:33
J.R., you've heard servant leadership. I

00:24:35
said, yes. He said, "Is it better to be

00:24:37
a servant who leads or a leader who

00:24:40
serves?" And I thought, "Well, maybe

00:24:42
this is just nuance." And he said, "It

00:24:44
really matters. I'll give you a couple

00:24:45
weeks to think about it and we'll come

00:24:46
back and talk about it.

00:24:48
And I said, I think I think the answer

00:24:51
is it's better for me to be a servant

00:24:53
who leads than a leader who serves, but

00:24:56
I'm not sure. And he said, that's right.

00:24:58
And if we look at this through the

00:25:00
definition of Jesus, um, you know, a

00:25:03
servant who leads. Jesus was a servant.

00:25:05
And if he puts us in a position to serve

00:25:08
a servant who leads, what happens if I

00:25:11
taken out of leadership? If I'm taken

00:25:14
out of a role of leadership, that

00:25:15
crushes my identity. I used to be a

00:25:17
leader. Now I'm not a leader. Now I'm

00:25:20
put in a position where someone else is

00:25:21
leading me can really rock your

00:25:23
identity. Um, if I start as a leader and

00:25:27
I'm taken out and that's my identity, a

00:25:29
leader who serves. If I'm a servant who

00:25:31
leads and then I'm taken out of that and

00:25:33
I'm now a bread truck delivery driver or

00:25:36
I'm a janitor of a local high school,

00:25:38
totally fine. But it it changes the

00:25:41
expression of my servantthood. It

00:25:44
doesn't change my identity. And

00:25:46
unfortunately, I think some people with

00:25:47
servant leadership, they think they are

00:25:49
leaders who serve. And I really think

00:25:52
the reorientation is that we need to be

00:25:53
servants who God has graciously invited

00:25:56
us to lead. And he has the

00:26:00
u the right to take me out of leadership

00:26:03
at any time and put me in something else

00:26:05
if he so pleases. then I become a

00:26:08
servant who plums or a servant who uh

00:26:11
washes windows or a servant who's a

00:26:13
stay-at-home mom or dad. Um but uh to me

00:26:17
that was a really informative question,

00:26:19
maybe one of the most important

00:26:20
questions around servant leadership that

00:26:22
my mentor Tom asked me over 25 years ago

00:26:25
and I haven't forgotten it.

00:26:27
Wow. I love that. Uh for so many

00:26:31
reasons. Let me ask this in in a

00:26:34
different way because you're somebody

00:26:35
who is you write books, people look to

00:26:38
you for thought leadership. um you're on

00:26:41
stages like people think of you as a

00:26:44
leader and and if you're thinking of

00:26:48
yourself as a servant who happens to

00:26:49
lead and you talk about like okay I can

00:26:52
be okay with being a servant who plums a

00:26:54
servant who does whatever the other

00:26:55
thing is that's a huge jump I think like

00:26:59
even for me like that's a huge jump to

00:27:01
think through how do I get to that point

00:27:03
because it seems like okay we're we're

00:27:07
in these positions we're in leading And

00:27:10
yeah, we're supposed to serve the people

00:27:12
around us. But I I love how you're

00:27:14
talking about it. How do you get there

00:27:16
from the other side of that question?

00:27:19
Yeah, it's a totally different

00:27:21
orientation point, isn't it? I mean,

00:27:22
it's almost like writing with your

00:27:23
opposite hand and it takes a while. So,

00:27:26
that's the first thing that there's

00:27:28
I think the easy thing as leaders is to

00:27:30
learn. The harder thing is to unlearn.

00:27:33
And this is one of the things that I've

00:27:35
had to unlearn. And I'm still unlearning

00:27:37
it. I'm not an expert in this. I just

00:27:38
may have a few more years ahead of you

00:27:40
of thinking through this and trying to

00:27:42
unlearn.

00:27:43
But number one, and and I forget who

00:27:45
said it, but it's been so helpful if

00:27:47
they they said, "If you think that

00:27:49
you're being a servant, it will be

00:27:51
revealed by how you respond when someone

00:27:54
treats you like one."

00:27:56
And if I'm treated like a servant and I

00:27:59
respond, "What are you doing?" And I get

00:28:01
defensive and angry and upset. I go I

00:28:05
I've got some work to do because I'm not

00:28:07
quite where I need to be as a servant.

00:28:10
Um that's the first thing I the other

00:28:12
thing when I'm um you know on stages as

00:28:15
you mentioned or or podcasting or being

00:28:17
interviewed I'm grateful for those but I

00:28:20
always have to uh ask sometimes with

00:28:22
great trembling Lord I want my inner

00:28:26
world and my outer world to match. You

00:28:28
know, you go to the tube in in London

00:28:30
and you ride the tube, they always say,

00:28:31
"Mind the gap." For leaders, if we don't

00:28:34
mind the gap between our personal lives

00:28:36
and our public lives, we're in trouble.

00:28:39
And so, for me, that's very important

00:28:41
that those are consistent. And I think

00:28:43
we've all been burned by people that

00:28:45
were living double lives of a private

00:28:47
and a personal and a public life that

00:28:49
was they did not mind the gap. Um, but I

00:28:52
also remember something that Simon

00:28:54
Synynic, he was on a podcast and someone

00:28:56
said,"Simon, you're one of the most

00:28:58
sought-after speakers in the world." Um,

00:29:00
and people pay you millions of dollars a

00:29:02
year to be able to do what you do, but

00:29:04
there are lots of other good speakers.

00:29:06
Why you? And he said, "I don't I don't

00:29:08
know, but I I remember his answer." He

00:29:10
said, "I'm not sure, but he said, I'll

00:29:12
tell you, when I'm invited to speak

00:29:15
somewhere and I go up on a on a stage

00:29:17
after I'm introduced," he said, "I

00:29:18
whisper something under my breath." He

00:29:21
said, 'I I whisper,"I am here to serve."

00:29:26
And he said, 'Most people go up on a

00:29:27
stage and they think that like the

00:29:29
people are there for me, to listen to

00:29:31
me. And he said, "No, no, no. When I'm

00:29:35
there, my job is to serve them." And he

00:29:38
said, "If I had to guess, that's

00:29:40
probably why I'm sought out uh so often

00:29:43
is because my orientation is different."

00:29:46
And I don't think he's a person of

00:29:47
faith, but I just I have stolen that.

00:29:50
And when I'm going somewhere and um I'm

00:29:53
introduced and there's, you know, I'm

00:29:54
walking up to the platform uh to the

00:29:56
podium,

00:29:58
I will simply before I click my mic on

00:30:00
on my lapel mic or my countryman, I I

00:30:02
will say I'm here to serve. I'm here to

00:30:06
serve. Not just on stage, but oftentimes

00:30:08
I'll try to show up early and say, "You

00:30:10
need anything to set up? Can I help in

00:30:11
any way? I'm here to add value to you.

00:30:14
This is my job." And to if there are

00:30:16
ways to to just find a need and do it.

00:30:19
And sometimes the smaller the need and

00:30:21
the more menial the task and the more

00:30:23
invisible it is, the better it is to

00:30:25
prepare me for my mind and my heart to

00:30:28
go up on stage where everyone sees me.

00:30:30
To make sure I'm serving off camera,

00:30:33
unrecorded and unseen puts me in the

00:30:36
right posture and mindset to be on stage

00:30:40
when I am seen.

00:30:41
Wow. I love that reframing that that's

00:30:44
so helpful to even think about and I

00:30:46
love that I I hadn't heard about the

00:30:49
Simon Synynic like what he whispers

00:30:50
before but I I love that too when when

00:30:53
you're doing all this coaching because I

00:30:55
know you work with a lot of leaders all

00:30:56
around the country maybe around the

00:30:57
world but all around the country you're

00:30:59
working with highlevel leaders what's

00:31:01
something that is a common thread where

00:31:03
you're like this is something they think

00:31:07
and this is something that I've seen

00:31:09
them reframe or that they don't know yet

00:31:12
that they need to reframe, but it's

00:31:13
helped make them better leaders.

00:31:15
Yeah. Well, every leader is different.

00:31:17
It's a great question. Every leader is

00:31:18
different, and I work with leaders in a

00:31:20
wide variety of contexts from division

00:31:22
one men's basketball coaches to, um,

00:31:25
college presidents to athletic

00:31:27
directors, pastors, uh, Anglican

00:31:29
bishops. Um, so there's a wide

00:31:31
Chick-fil-A operators, there's a wide

00:31:33
variety, but there are some principles

00:31:35
that do remain. And one of the things,

00:31:38
Chris, that I've noticed, and it's an

00:31:39
acronym, so I'm not talking about it in

00:31:42
a literal way, but I only work with

00:31:44
leaders who are fat and hungry. And of

00:31:46
course, the acronym there, faithful,

00:31:48
available, teachable, and hungry. You've

00:31:51
got to be faithful to the task that

00:31:53
you've been entrusted with. You've got

00:31:55
to be available to be present to show

00:31:58
up. You have to be teachable.

00:32:01
You've got to be teachable. If not,

00:32:03
there's just not humility there. there's

00:32:05
not a willingness to be a servant and

00:32:06
you've got to be hungry.

00:32:08
And um you know, I live here in the

00:32:09
Philadelphia area and Jason Kelsey uh

00:32:13
during the first Super Bowl uh during

00:32:15
the parade, he said, "Hungry dogs run

00:32:17
faster."

00:32:18
And I love that line. I because I want

00:32:21
to bend over backwards and work hard and

00:32:23
run with the hungry dogs. But one of the

00:32:25
things I tell the leaders I work with, I

00:32:27
will work hard. I will bend over

00:32:29
backwards, but I refuse to work harder

00:32:31
at your life and leadership than you do

00:32:33
because I cannot lead your life.

00:32:36
Only you can do that. But I walk

00:32:38
alongside of them and help them. So for

00:32:40
me, they've got to be fat and hungry.

00:32:42
The best leaders I've seen are fat and

00:32:44
hungry. All leaders are lifelong

00:32:47
learners. Um, and to me, that's really

00:32:50
important. The moment you stop learning

00:32:51
should be the moment you step down from

00:32:53
leading. And that's very important that

00:32:55
we we do that. And I think that's being

00:32:57
fat and hungry. So the leaders I work

00:32:59
with when they're fat and hungry, it's

00:33:01
amazing uh what can happen uh and how

00:33:05
they can gain perspective and draw on

00:33:07
their courage. Um but wisdom, courage,

00:33:10
and compassion are are three other

00:33:12
elements. And you've got to have wisdom.

00:33:15
A foolish leader is a very destructive

00:33:17
leader. Um

00:33:19
you've got to have courage because

00:33:21
leadership is not for wimps. Uh

00:33:23
sometimes we say, "I don't know what to

00:33:26
do. No one ever prepared me for this. Uh

00:33:28
or man, I feel so misunderstood. It's

00:33:32
people are assuming things about me of

00:33:33
things I said or didn't say or and that

00:33:36
that takes a lot of courage to do the

00:33:39
right thing even when it's the hardest

00:33:40
thing.

00:33:41
And then compassion again back to

00:33:44
motive. Is my motive truly to love

00:33:47
people? Uh to really want to see other

00:33:49
people succeed, not to do something for

00:33:52
me and then they become a cog in my

00:33:54
wheel. I just use them for utilitarian

00:33:57
reasons. No. Uh that I actually care

00:34:01
about them not just for what they do for

00:34:03
me,

00:34:04
but can I actually care for who they are

00:34:08
and to cheer them on? Because I want

00:34:10
people 20 or 30 years from now to at my

00:34:13
retirement party and you know the

00:34:16
question is that's often asked is uh

00:34:18
when you retire, what do you want people

00:34:20
to line up with tears in their eyes and

00:34:22
thank you for? And for me, I want people

00:34:25
to line up and thank me for saying, "You

00:34:27
know what? Um, you were the best boss I

00:34:29
ever had. You believed in me. You, we

00:34:31
might have disagreed, but you always

00:34:32
showed me respect.

00:34:34
You gave me responsibility I didn't

00:34:36
think I could do. You cheered me on. You

00:34:39
let me fail. You let me learn from it.

00:34:42
Um, you were never above me. Entitled.

00:34:45
You were, but you always treated me with

00:34:47
utmost respect." To me, that's what I

00:34:50
want to hear. that I actually showed

00:34:53
compassion and care for them. So, to me,

00:34:55
th those are some key uh elements that I

00:34:58
see in in the leaders that I work with

00:34:59
and incredible leaders I get to work

00:35:01
with. They're so inspiring. They inspire

00:35:04
me. I learn from them all the time. Uh

00:35:06
and it's such a joy. I'm a better person

00:35:08
because of what they teach me. And uh

00:35:12
that's an incredible privilege and

00:35:13
position to be in.

00:35:15
Well, we started talking about motive.

00:35:17
You talked a little bit about

00:35:18
motivation. Um, I'm curious. A lot of

00:35:22
people might have the right motive. They

00:35:24
get to a point where they've got the

00:35:25
right motive.

00:35:27
I would say they're even motivated

00:35:29
towards

00:35:30
accomplishing an end goal, which could

00:35:32
be anything.

00:35:34
But the gap between motivation and

00:35:37
accomplishment of whatever that

00:35:39
accomplishment is uh is such a big gap.

00:35:43
Um, and all of us have areas where we

00:35:46
really struggle with, I I think my

00:35:49
heart's in the right place. I'm really

00:35:50
motivated to do this, but boy, doing

00:35:53
this just is impossible or it's it's

00:35:56
hard or whatever it is. How do you help

00:36:00
people bridge that gap? Because I know

00:36:01
that's kind of the place that you step

00:36:03
into a lot is helping people bridge that

00:36:05
gap. So, they're a fat leader, if you

00:36:07
will, but at the same point, it's like

00:36:10
the amount of work it's going to take is

00:36:12
hard.

00:36:13
And sometimes they're they're motivated

00:36:16
but not motivated to do the right

00:36:18
things.

00:36:19
Yes, that's you're you're very

00:36:20
insightful on this Chris and it's a very

00:36:23
great question. Yeah, there are several

00:36:24
things and this is the privilege that I

00:36:26
have when people trust me to step in

00:36:28
with them to this um in their partner in

00:36:30
partnering with them in their in their

00:36:32
leadership journey.

00:36:34
Very few things can be done by

00:36:36
ourselves. One of the the taglines or

00:36:39
the things that we say frequently in our

00:36:41
organization is stop leading alone.

00:36:43
Never lead alone. And because when we

00:36:46
have community around us, and I don't

00:36:48
mean just the kumbaya, hold hands around

00:36:50
a campfire uh community idea, but when

00:36:53
we've got people where we're not the

00:36:55
lone ranger, where we've got people in

00:36:57
our corner that are cheering us on, but

00:36:59
also people that stick a finger in our

00:37:01
chest and poke us and say, "Hey, I love

00:37:03
you. You're being a bonehead. Stop. You

00:37:05
can be better than this. you're better

00:37:07
than that. And we need both. And so I

00:37:09
think we need community around us,

00:37:11
number one. Number two, and you know,

00:37:13
James Clear with Atomic Habits has

00:37:15
really uh highlighted this a lot, but

00:37:18
we've got to develop habits. Because as

00:37:20
he says, we don't rise to the occasion,

00:37:22
we fall to the level of our systems, and

00:37:24
our systems are our habits. And to me,

00:37:27
one of the important things when I'm

00:37:29
coaching leaders is to say,"Let's

00:37:31
develop some habits that would help you

00:37:34
become the kind of person that you feel

00:37:36
you're called to become." Um, and so,

00:37:39
for example, I love swimming. Uh, I'm

00:37:42
not, don't worry, no Olympic record is

00:37:44
being threatened uh in any way, shape,

00:37:46
or form, but but three days a week, I

00:37:48
love swimming. And for me, why do I love

00:37:50
swimming? Not because I'm fast. I never

00:37:52
was on a swim team. I didn't swim in

00:37:54
high school or college. Um, it's because

00:37:57
I want to be in shape and take care of

00:37:59
my heart. I've got a 19 and a

00:38:02
16-year-old and my sons are great.

00:38:04
They're not anywhere close to being

00:38:06
parents, but I want to be an amazing

00:38:08
grandparent. And so for me, I have a

00:38:10
vision of doing that. And so I've got a

00:38:12
community of people I swim with, number

00:38:14
one, but they all depend upon me to be

00:38:16
there at 7:30 Monday, Wednesday, Friday

00:38:19
at the YMCA pool. And so for me there

00:38:21
are habits and community that we engage

00:38:24
in because there are a lot of days Chris

00:38:26
when it's cold in January and February

00:38:28
and I go it's dark outside it's cold I

00:38:31
don't want to get out of my warm bed

00:38:33
but I know but it's a habit and I also

00:38:36
know I've got a community that will say

00:38:38
where were you Monday we miss you um

00:38:41
pushing me on toward that and so for me

00:38:43
that's where our with coaching one of

00:38:46
the things we do is walk alongside of

00:38:48
leaders in companioning with them to

00:38:51
challenge, encourage, remind, um,

00:38:55
cheer them on, but also to develop

00:38:58
habits, not our habits for them, but

00:39:00
what would be the habits that would be

00:39:01
helpful for them. And then also, we've

00:39:03
got resources and tools that we use to

00:39:05
help them um, some mental exercises and

00:39:08
reflection questions um, that can help

00:39:11
them move in that direction. So yeah,

00:39:13
Dallas Willard talks about vim vim that

00:39:16
we have a vision, we have intention and

00:39:19
we have means. A lot of people have a

00:39:21
great vision. I want to be a, you know,

00:39:22
Olympian. I want to make, you know, 5

00:39:24
million a year. Um, and that's great.

00:39:27
But if if we've got a a a goal without a

00:39:30
plan is just a wish, as Herm Edwards

00:39:33
said. And so, you know, the the road to

00:39:35
hell is paved with good intentions.

00:39:36
There's a lot of ways we could say that.

00:39:39
But if I don't have an intention as in

00:39:41
my intent I am committed to doing this

00:39:44
and then the means are what are my

00:39:46
habits what are the resources around me

00:39:49
what are the community the friends and

00:39:51
family that are going to push me toward

00:39:53
my intent which will help me reach my

00:39:56
vision and so I love that idea and we

00:39:58
work with leaders on vim vim vision

00:40:01
intention and means the goal the passion

00:40:05
then the commitment I'm I'm it's not

00:40:08
just a good idea I'm committed to it. I

00:40:10
have intent to do this. I'm resolved.

00:40:12
And then the means, the the supporting

00:40:14
environment and structure around me.

00:40:17
I love that. Vim, easy to remember, easy

00:40:21
to think through, but I think the the

00:40:23
clear part that I heard you say before

00:40:25
that was the community aspect is really

00:40:28
something that people need in place,

00:40:30
right, to help them actually execute.

00:40:33
Whether it be with one-on-one with the

00:40:34
coach or whether it be in a community of

00:40:36
other people like you're talking about

00:40:37
with your people you swim with, like the

00:40:39
community aspect. I guess I hadn't

00:40:41
thought through that, but yeah, it I

00:40:43
love that.

00:40:44
Yeah. Well, I remember when I was at

00:40:46
Taylor, I wanted to lift early in the

00:40:48
mornings and uh I was like, "Oh, that's

00:40:50
great. You know, I'll do it." And of

00:40:51
course, I go for two two mornings in a

00:40:53
row and then it's cold and I'm tired and

00:40:55
I sleep in and I don't feel like it. But

00:40:57
when my friend Adam down the hall said,

00:40:59
"We're going to lift together and we're

00:41:01
going to leave at 7 a.m. every morning

00:41:03
to go lift." Uh, and there are times I'd

00:41:05
hit the snooze button and he'd open my

00:41:07
door at 7:01. What are you doing? Let's

00:41:10
go. We got to go, Briggs. And at first I

00:41:14
hated him for it. But here's the thing,

00:41:16
Chris, for six months. Uh, we hardly

00:41:19
missed a day.

00:41:21
Yeah.

00:41:21
And I realized it was that piece that

00:41:23
Adam was depending upon me. And

00:41:24
sometimes he'd come in my room and yank

00:41:27
the covers off off of me and say, "Let's

00:41:29
go. Get your shoes on. Let's go." And I

00:41:31
realized, even though I hated Adam in

00:41:33
the moment, later I said, "Adam, I'm

00:41:35
grateful for you because I wouldn't have

00:41:37
gone

00:41:38
if you weren't going with me." And he

00:41:41
said, 'You know what? Me either. He

00:41:43
said, 'Even though I was the one

00:41:44
charging in your room, I knew that if I

00:41:47
didn't get out of bed, you might be

00:41:48
coming doing that for me. And uh and

00:41:51
that's the power of community. We need

00:41:52
each other in those moments.

00:41:54
I love that. Well, Jar, I want to finish

00:41:57
with 10 rapidfire questions,

00:42:00
and you just answer with the first thing

00:42:01
that comes to mind. No wrong answer.

00:42:04
Okay.

00:42:04
Who's the first person you think of when

00:42:07
I say servant leadership?

00:42:09
My dad.

00:42:12
Five words the most describe you?

00:42:15
Wow.

00:42:16
Intentional. Uh thoughtful. Um outsider.

00:42:22
Uh reader. Um

00:42:30
that's a good one. Uh leader maybe.

00:42:34
I [laughter] like it. Favorite book or

00:42:36
author? Oh, hard to narrow down a

00:42:40
favorite book. I do have favorite

00:42:41
authors. Hard to narrow down a favorite

00:42:44
authors, but I think I'd say Eugene

00:42:45
Peterson.

00:42:47
Didn't I was reading one of your books.

00:42:49
Didn't he forward one of them or like he

00:42:51
wrote something at the end that I saw?

00:42:53
Yeah, he did. He he for he wrote the

00:42:54
forward to my book fail. But uh I'm

00:42:57
really grateful he he mentored me for 12

00:42:59
years up until he died. And I'm so

00:43:01
grateful to be shaped by him

00:43:03
and uh maybe that's why I choose him as

00:43:06
my favorite author because he was such a

00:43:08
dear friend to me.

00:43:09
That's cool. All right. Favorite food?

00:43:12
Puerto Rican.

00:43:14
Wow. Favorite thing to do in your free

00:43:16
time.

00:43:18
Read if I've got a little bit of time.

00:43:20
Uh go to a Phillies game if got a little

00:43:22
bit more time or be on my kayak out on

00:43:24
the river if I've got a little bit more

00:43:26
time than that.

00:43:27
Wow. What's a surprising fact about you?

00:43:31
Um,

00:43:33
I uh went to trapeze school and

00:43:36
absolutely loved it and would highly

00:43:39
recommend it to anybody else who might

00:43:40
be interested.

00:43:42
I love that. Wow. All right. Favorite

00:43:44
place you've been?

00:43:46
Uh, lived and studied for a semester

00:43:48
abroad in Jerusalem. Uh, it's my

00:43:51
favorite city in the world.

00:43:52
Is there anywhere in the world you want

00:43:53
to go that you have not been to yet? Oh

00:43:56
man, there's so many places. I I think I

00:43:58
would love to hike Machu Picchu.

00:44:01
All right. Best advice you've ever

00:44:03
received.

00:44:04
You show me your friends, I'll show you

00:44:06
your future.

00:44:08
Love that. All right. Finally, this is a

00:44:10
podcast on servant leadership. I know

00:44:12
we've talked about this a little bit,

00:44:14
but why should people care about being

00:44:15
better servant leaders?

00:44:17
Yeah. And like like we talked about,

00:44:19
better to be a servant who leads than a

00:44:21
leader who serves. But I can think of no

00:44:23
better way to live your life than for

00:44:27
something greater than ourselves, a

00:44:29
greater mission and on behalf of others.

00:44:32
Because if we live for ourselves with

00:44:34
the arrows pointing in, we live a pretty

00:44:36
small and purposeless life. But the

00:44:39
leaders and the people who have the

00:44:42
greatest amount of purpose and mission

00:44:44
and conviction and significance in life

00:44:47
are those that live with their arrows

00:44:48
pointed out. And if we're going to live

00:44:50
with our errors pointed out, we better

00:44:52
have a posture that looks to serve

00:44:54
people everywhere we go.

00:44:56
I love that. Well, J.R., thank you for

00:44:58
being on the podcast. Uh, I love the way

00:45:02
you phrased who should read your book.

00:45:04
Can you say that again? That one

00:45:05
sentence of like who should read the

00:45:07
questions book?

00:45:09
Yeah. Well, the quality of your life is

00:45:11
determined by the quality of the

00:45:13
questions you ask God, yourself, and

00:45:14
others. And so, if people are interested

00:45:16
in that, great. And if they're not, no

00:45:18
big deal. No judgment. Uh but uh there's

00:45:21
no way we can live a higher quality life

00:45:25
without asking better questions.

00:45:27
I love that. And for those listening,

00:45:28
we'll throw it in the description so

00:45:30
people can find it, read it, and even

00:45:32
start following some of the stuff you're

00:45:33
doing and and sharing all online. You're

00:45:36
everywhere. So, thank you for being

00:45:37
here, too.

00:45:38
Well, Chris, thanks so much. And I will

00:45:40
say this, you ask great questions.

00:45:42
You've given me a gift today. Seriously,

00:45:44
you've been a servant by extending

00:45:46
hospitality and a real gift to me by

00:45:48
your question. So, thank you for that. I

00:45:50
really appreciate it.

00:45:51
Well, excited that you were willing to

00:45:53
do this and looking forward to seeing

00:45:54
where it goes.

00:45:56
Thanks so much. Thank you for listening

00:45:58
to this episode of the Servant

00:46:00
Leadership Podcast. If you enjoyed what

00:46:03
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