Power and Influence in Washington

0:00
And I know you you're not asking about

0:01
this per se, but I think this is a

0:04
deepening of your question about servant

0:07
leadership. I think almost it's

0:09
incumbent that I say this, which is that

0:12
the words power and influence are used

0:15
interchangeably in Washington, but they

0:18
are definitively, Chris, not the same

0:20
thing. you know power is when you have

0:24
been uh you know nominated and confirmed

0:27
when you've been elected you know uh in

0:30
other words the the at least in

0:32
Washington power is a very definitive I

0:36
think uh you know noble and can be a

0:39
noble calling.

Introducing Tim Goeglein

0:47
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

0:49
we welcome Tim Gaggline, vice president

0:51
for external and government relations at

0:53
Focus on the Family. Before joining

0:56
Focus on the Family, Tim served as

0:58
special assistant to President George W.

1:00
Bush and deputy director of the White

1:01
House Office of Public Liaon, where he

1:04
was the president's principal point of

1:05
contact with conservative leaders, faith

1:08
communities, and [music] cultural

1:09
organizations across the country. He's

1:11
the author of several books, including

1:13
The Man in the Middle and his newest

1:15
release, What Really Matters: [music]

1:17
Restoring a Legacy of Faith, Freedom,

1:19
and Family. Join us [music] as Tim

1:21
shares what it would look like for you

1:23
to build a life around what really

1:24
matters.

Welcome Tim Goeglein

1:26
Tim, welcome to the Servant Leadership

1:28
Podcast.

1:29
Chris, it's great to be with you. Thank

1:31
you so much.

Tim's Career Journey

1:33
For context, give our audience your work

1:37
journey cuz your career path is

1:39
unbelievable. that's led you to now be

1:41
at Focus on the Family, but you've had a

1:43
big career.

1:44
Well, that's really gracious of you. Uh,

1:48
I came to Washington in the mid80s as an

1:51
intern, first in the US Senate for Dan

1:54
Quail, who went on to become vice

1:56
president of the United States. Uh, then

1:58
for Dan Coats in the House uh, of

2:01
representatives. And as fate would have

2:03
it, when Quail became the vice

2:06
president, Dan Coats went to the Senate.

2:08
uh he remembered me and I became his

2:11
deputy press secretary, then his press

2:13
secretary and communications manager.

2:16
You add all that together, that's 10

2:18
years. Uh 10 years in the Senate is

2:20
about 67,000 dog years. Uh because

2:24
people tend not to stay that long. Then

2:26
eight years at the White House as a

2:28
special assistant for George W. Bush uh

2:32
which was a a wonderful uh a wonderful

2:35
uh ride as they say just just terrific

2:39
and then the last 18 years uh the vice

2:42
president of focus on the family uh

2:44
shephering our Washington DC office. So

2:47
if you add all that together nearly four

2:50
decades living and working inside the

2:52
swamp.

Servant Leadership in Washington

2:53
Wow I love that. Uh on this podcast, we

2:56
talk a lot about servant leadership. And

2:59
when you think about civil service, uh

3:02
something you're very familiar with, we

3:05
we as the public expect people to be

3:07
great servant leaders who are going to

3:09
Washington. And I'm sure you've bumped

3:11
into some great servant leaders and some

3:13
very self-seeking leaders in Washington.

3:16
Uh how do you think of servant

3:17
leadership in Washington?

3:19
Well, I am more honored by that

3:21
question, Chris, than you possibly know.

3:24
And I'll tell you why. Uh I actually

3:27
believe that public service can be a a

3:31
very high and noble calling. And uh in

3:35
the academic year, I speak on a

3:38
different college campus in behalf of

3:39
Focus on the Family uh every week or

3:42
every other week. Harvard, Princeton,

3:44
Yale, Cornell, uh Liberty University,

3:47
Grove City, the Concordas, you you name

3:50
it. there a real ideological and no

3:53
ideological gamut. And uh inevitably in

3:57
each one of those stops uh my time both

4:00
in public service uh and in working

4:03
around public service has come up. Um

4:06
and and very often when I mention what I

4:09
just shared with you uh that public

4:12
service can be a high and noble and

4:15
terrific calling very often uh people

4:19
become immediately skeptical and

4:22
immediately cynical and and I I'm not

4:25
ever surprised by that because of all

4:29
the reasons that you mention uh that

4:31
that you know if you're in uh and around

4:35
Washington DC long enough uh you meet

4:38
truly genuinely remarkable gifted

4:42
character centric people and you meet

4:44
the opposite and so in my strongly held

4:48
view especially as a cradle Lutheran who

4:51
I pray holds the vanguard high of

4:54
Luther's view of vocation our calling uh

4:58
the answer of why why were you put on

5:00
this earth uh whether it is politics

5:03
whether it is business whether it is the

5:06
law and legal professions. My strongly

5:08
held view uh is that men and women of

5:12
deep character and deep integrity in

5:15
fact work at the highest echelons of

5:17
government both as people uh who have

5:20
been elected or appointed or nominated

5:23
to something uh or people who have been

5:25
chosen to work alongside them. And I and

5:28
I know you you're not asking about this

5:30
per se, but I think this is a deepening

5:33
of your question about servant

5:36
leadership. I think almost it's

5:38
incumbent that I say this, which is that

5:41
the words power and influence are used

5:44
interchangeably in Washington, but they

5:47
are definitively, Chris, not the same

5:49
thing. You know power is when you have

5:52
been uh you know nominated and confirmed

5:56
when you've been elected you know uh in

5:59
other words the the at least in

6:01
Washington power is a very definitive I

6:05
think uh you know noble and can be a

6:08
noble calling. Influence is very

6:11
different. Influence is when someone who

6:14
is powerful asks you your opinion. You

6:17
know uh what do you think? I mean you

6:20
realize very quickly uh as a person of

6:23
influence if in fact you are a person of

6:25
influence that nobody elected you or

6:28
nominated you or confirmed you to

6:30
anything. I mean maybe in your past

6:33
professional life but I think that uh in

6:36
the halls of power uh where I spend a

6:39
lot of time and I spent a lot of my

6:41
professional and vocational life I've

6:44
seen this remarkable distinction not

6:46
only between power and influence but

6:49
between power for good power for ill

6:53
influence for good and influence for

6:56
ill. And almost 100% of it is based on

7:00
character and personal integrity.

Character in Washington

7:03
Wow. And and you feel like character and

7:06
personal integrity show up very often in

7:09
Washington from your vantage point in

7:12
Oh, yeah.

7:13
No, no, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

7:14
Forgive me.

7:15
No. Well, and I was curious because

7:16
special assistant to George W. Bush,

7:19
like in that role, you're getting the

7:20
president, right? And there's a lot of

7:22
stuff that they have to keep to

7:23
themselves. There's a lot of stuff that

7:25
the public says about them. But did you

7:27
see that in the presidency roles or in

7:29
as you were helping with senators or

7:31
doing things like that?

7:33
Yeah, I I must say uh I I've made it a

7:36
point over all these years uh to have

7:39
wonderful friendships with men and women

7:41
of the left and men and women of the

7:43
right and not a few men and women who

7:46
would say they're moderate by nature. Uh

7:49
I am a Christian and a conservative. uh

7:51
and I you know that that that's you know

7:54
merely who I am that shapes my my world

7:57
view uh but I find it a very excellent

8:00
thing to follow Dwight David

8:03
Eisenhower's admonition uh that it's a

8:06
wonderful way to navigate Washington DC

8:09
if you choose not to spend a lot of time

8:12
questioning other people's motives um I

8:15
think it is quite respectable and

8:17
possible to have a worldview very

8:20
different than my own but based on uh

8:24
you know someone's strongly held moral

8:26
or religious views. Uh and and I think

8:29
that that when you come to Washington DC

8:32
and you spend time here, one of the

8:34
things you have to become comfortable

8:36
with um is that there are at least two

8:39
major prevailing world views. many

8:42
others I'm sure but in the in the

8:44
political context there are gradations

8:47
and variations on the left gradations

8:49
and variations on the right uh and I I

8:53
think in order to navigate the city to

8:56
navigate the public policy process to

8:59
have a a better understanding of how

9:01
politics actually works uh it's better

9:04
to understand in my view that there can

9:07
be great men and women of character and

9:09
integrity on both sides sides of the

9:12
political aisle and it's one of the

9:14
reasons that I wanted to write what

9:16
really matters my new book because what

9:18
really matters I think uh says that you

9:21
can bring a worldview into the public

9:23
policy sphere you have to be comfortable

9:26
with that there will be large numbers of

9:28
people who will disagree large numbers

9:30
of people who will agree but you have to

9:32
know first and foremost why it is you've

9:35
been placed here and why it is you

9:37
believe what you believe

Writing What Really Matters

9:40
that's so Good. One of the things I love

9:42
about your writing, and it's not just

9:44
that book, it's it's other books, too,

9:46
is you have a really good way of looking

9:48
at things um very reflective and then

9:52
being able to see them from a lot of

9:53
points of view. Uh when when you were in

9:56
the process of writing what really

9:57
matters, you know, you're talking about

9:59
faith and family and freedom and all

10:01
these different things. Uh when you sat

10:04
down to write it, what were you hoping

10:06
the big takeaway would be?

10:08
Uh, I love that question because as I

10:11
mentioned a moment ago, I'm on a

10:12
different college campus during the

10:14
academic year every week or every other

10:16
week. And a couple of years ago when I

10:19
was assembling the book, uh there was a

10:21
young woman who after I spoke the Q&A

10:24
and so forth, uh she said, uh why is it

10:28
uh that by and large the political class

10:32
doesn't seem to spend much time on

10:34
speaking about uh or or acting on

10:38
legislatively public policy matters that

10:41
really matter. And I thought first,

10:43
she's given me the name of the book,

10:45
What Really Matters? But I thought and I

10:47
had to concede she's expressly right. Uh

10:50
which is to say Chris that the political

10:52
class left and right and I'm a man of

10:55
the right. I don't I mean there there

10:56
there's my bonafides uh whether people

10:59
agree or disagree. But I think you have

11:01
to say that the political class spends a

11:04
lot of time talking about taxes and

11:07
regulations and wars and rumors of wars

11:10
and borders. I mean well they should.

11:12
That's the public policy process. But I

11:14
think when it comes to speaking about

11:16
the things that matter most, marriage,

11:19
family, parenting, human life, uh,

11:22
religious liberty, conscience rights,

11:24
parental rights, uh, the the absolutely

11:27
foundational importance of faith and

11:30
religion in the American experience. I

11:32
I'm always very surprised, as was uh,

11:35
this undergraduate, uh, that the

11:38
political class just doesn't seem to

11:40
spend much time in that area. uh and I

11:43
and I'm glad that she raised the uh the

11:45
issue and it's the reason I wrote what

11:47
really matters because I think that if

11:49
we are asking ourselves seriously what

11:52
kind of a country do we want 50 years

11:54
from now I think that's a very good

11:56
question especially in light of America

11:58
250. Um I think if we want to ask

12:00
ourselves what kind of a country do we

12:03
want then we better start speaking about

12:05
and uh and and acting upon those issues

12:09
that really matter because the permanent

12:11
issues are the permanent things uh and

12:14
those are the institutions that are

12:16
foundational to human flourishing and

12:19
human liberty.

Focus on the Family

12:21
Yeah. what when you think through what

12:23
really matters. It's interesting the

12:25
route you took and I want to hear more

12:26
about it because you lived in this

12:28
political world and I know you're still

12:30
very heavily involved in Washington for

12:32
sure. Um but it was purely on the

12:34
political side for the longest time and

12:36
then more recently or I guess it's been

12:40
a while now but you then started focused

12:42
on the family so clearly you must think

12:44
there's some what really matters stuff

12:46
happening there. Talk about why that was

12:48
even of interest making that jump. you

12:51
you know I'm I'm really uh specifically

12:54
eager to talk about this because you're

12:57
right uh you know I worked for 10 years

13:00
uh in the legislative branch and nearly

13:02
eight years uh in the executive branch

13:05
nearly 18 years as they say working for

13:08
Caesar. Uh and I and I realized uh when

13:11
I when I left the you know uh the halls

13:14
of power and influence as it were I I

13:17
realized uh as we were talking about

13:19
just a moment ago that for all of the

13:22
issues that I had been very involved in

13:24
as a press secretary as a special

13:27
assistant to the president I I came to

13:30
see that my vocation the thing that I

13:32
really love is this combination of

13:35
people people above all uh policy and

13:39
the press uh and the way that they

13:41
uniquely come together and intermele uh

13:45
in the Washington DC experience. And so

13:48
when I left government uh I I wanted to

13:51
work uh in the nonprofit sector uh for a

13:55
ministry or an organization uh that

13:58
really preoccupied itself in the best

14:01
sense uh with uh with the things in life

14:05
uh that really matter. Uh, and I've, you

14:08
know, we've all seen the cliche that the

14:10
best things in life are not things. But

14:12
I came to see from personal experience

14:16
over all those years in government, uh,

14:18
that that that slogan, as it were, is

14:21
really true. And we ought to spend a lot

14:24
more time in public policy saying, "How

14:28
can we favor marriage, family,

14:30
parenting?" Uh, we have the lowest

14:32
marriage rates in American history. We

14:34
have the lowest fertility rates in

14:36
American history. Uh we we have all

14:39
kinds of social pathologies that really

14:42
have beset our constitutional republic.

14:45
And it seems to me that we have a a

14:47
moral duty to be intelligent uh and to

14:50
bring uh that intelligence to bear upon

14:54
the best of the public policy process to

14:56
advance uh what favors the rising

14:59
generation of young Americans. If it

15:02
sounds altruistic, Chris, I suppose it

15:05
is at some level, but it is ultimately

15:08
for me a reflection of my faith.

Finding What Really Matters

15:10
Yeah. For you, there's a clear path for

15:14
you to help figure out what really

15:15
matters in your life. You go around

15:17
[snorts] speaking around the country,

15:18
around the world, talking about what

15:20
really matters in other things, not just

15:22
to college students, but to all career

15:24
paths. But what is h how do you help

15:27
somebody figure out what's something

15:29
significant they believe in and then

15:31
take the next step to move into

15:32
something that really matters to them

15:34
and for the bettering of others? Uh I

15:38
was asked very recently to speak to a

15:41
very large group of businessmen and

15:44
women and uh I was very honored by this

15:47
invitation because overwhelmingly in

15:50
that sea of people uh probably most of

15:53
them were only tangentially uh aware of

15:57
focus on the family. Uh and I was so I

16:00
was eager to you know bring to a new

16:01
audience news of what focus on the

16:04
family does above all why we do it etc.

16:07
And I began my remarks Chris by saying

16:10
uh the following. I said now you know

16:12
before I begin and you have to remember

16:14
this is a very mixed group of Democrats,

16:17
Republicans, liberals, progressives cons

16:22
but but a a very affluent educated

16:25
group. uh again uh their common uh

16:28
through line is they're all in business.

16:31
And I began by saying uh you know that

16:34
that I want to say even before I begin

16:37
the first words of my remarks uh that

16:40
God does not matter uh one wit where you

16:44
went to college or university. He

16:47
doesn't care one wit uh what your uh MD

16:51
or PhD or M's or BA is in or where from.

16:56
He doesn't matter uh you know it doesn't

16:58
matter what your last name is. Uh I want

17:01
to begin by saying that all of those

17:04
professional bonafides uh that this side

17:07
of eternity namely the world put such a

17:10
premium on ultimately does not matter.

17:14
And I said that's because what I want to

17:16
discuss today is soul craft. Uh I want

17:19
to speak less about the things of the

17:21
world and more uh about the world to

17:24
come. Uh and I said this set of remarks

17:27
is going to be about where reality and

17:30
the day-to-day meet eternity. Uh and

17:33
I'll tell you as you snap your fingers

17:36
uh and I say this with profound humility

17:38
because I I'm out and about a lot. Uh I

17:41
got more response to that speech than

17:44
I've gotten to any in the last five or

17:45
six years or more, which is to say uh we

17:49
spend too much time in my view uh

17:52
talking about our polarization and and

17:55
and where we don't agree and I think we

17:58
need to spend uh less time on that and I

18:01
think we should spend more time about

18:03
speaking about our common points of

18:05
humanity uh the things where we can

18:08
agree and what we can do together. uh

18:11
and I think that uh you know it's very

18:13
important uh that with all the

18:15
discussion of of profits and losses and

18:18
balance sheets and whatever that we take

18:21
uh you know a few minutes to catch our

18:23
breath and maybe be more reflective

18:26
about the important uh parts of life

18:29
more more reflective and less dayto-day.

Discussing Soul Craft

18:32
Wow, I love that. And I I I love just

18:35
the sound of soulcraft. I mean what what

18:39
is something the high level of that that

18:41
you talked about that related to soul

18:43
crafting? Well, what I did is I quoted

18:46
CS Lewis's uh I think eminently quotable

18:49
observation

18:51
uh that we are not bodies with souls,

18:54
but we are souls with bodies. uh and

18:58
that uh and that what we do here and now

19:02
matters enormously, but but often it

19:05
matters enormously less for the reasons

19:08
that the world may say it does and more

19:11
for the reasons uh that God says it

19:14
does. uh and and what I loved about uh

19:17
you know the response to my remarks was

19:20
that I had a number of people who are

19:23
faithful Christians who came and wanted

19:26
to continue the conversation but I also

19:28
had many people who are not Christians

19:32
or perhaps were once and are you know

19:35
rethinking things in their lives. uh and

19:37
and these things of the spirit I think

19:40
very often in contemporary 21st century

19:44
America uh it may it sometimes can make

19:47
people uncomfortable but what you

19:49
realize even with a bit of reading of

19:52
history as I've done is that at least in

19:54
the American experience faith and public

19:56
life go together faith and business go

19:59
together faith and law they go together

20:02
um and uh and I I love the fact that we

20:06
can uh reform form it and rethink it

20:09
because I think that we have a

20:10
monumental work of reclamation and

20:13
revival and restoration to do uh in this

20:17
magnificent country of ours.

Rapidfire Questions

20:19
Wow. I agree 100%. This is so good. Uh

20:23
Tim, I want to finish with 10 rapidfire

20:25
questions where I ask you something and

20:28
you just say the first thing that comes

20:29
to mind. No wrong answer.

20:32
Sure. Who's the first person you think

20:34
of when I say servant leadership?

20:37
George Washington, who I believe uh was

20:40
the indispensable man. Uh and we would

20:42
not have a country uh if George

20:44
Washington had not done and achieved

20:46
what he did.

20:47
That's good. Five words to mo that most

20:50
describe you.

20:51
Huh. What really matters. Uh and faith,

20:56
family, and freedom. It all goes

20:57
together. And it's the sum total of the

20:59
title of my new book. Love it. All

21:02
right. Favorite author or book?

21:04
My favorite author and book

21:06
overwhelmingly is TS Elliott, who I

21:09
think was the greatest poet of the 20th

21:11
century. And his poetry, The Four

21:14
Quartets, I think are among the greatest

21:17
poetry of Western literature.

21:20
Favorite food?

21:21
My favorite food overwhelmingly is

21:24
pizza. I'm a fullblooded American and I

21:28
can discuss and eat pizza maybe five

21:30
days a week.

21:32
Love that. All right. What's a

21:34
surprising fact about you?

21:36
A surprising fact about me uh is that

21:40
even though I have lived on the east

21:41
coast for nearly 40 years, lived and

21:44
worked on the east coast for nearly 40

21:46
years, I was born and raised in what I

21:48
call the center of the universe, Fort

21:50
Wayne, Indiana. and I still regard it uh

21:53
as a remarkably special place. Uh

21:55
everything good to me uh and about me

21:58
began in Fort Wayne.

22:00
Wow. Love that. Uh favorite thing to do

22:02
in your free time?

22:04
Spend time with my family. Uh my beloved

22:07
wife, our children, my extended family.

22:10
Uh my hero and best friend is my father.

22:14
Uh I I love my wife and children and my

22:17
family. And uh that's a great way to

22:19
redeem my my free time.

22:21
Love that. Uh favorite place you've ever

22:23
been.

22:24
My favorite place that I have ever been

22:27
has been on a sailboat uh in the waters

22:30
off of New England. Uh I love the

22:32
Naraganset Bay. Uh I love the Casco uh

22:36
you know bay. Um I I I love to sail and

22:40
anywhere between the Long Island Sound

22:42
all the way up to the St. John's River

22:44
and the Bay of Fundy. I consider that to

22:46
be among the most beautiful country in

22:48
all the world.

22:49
Wow. Is there anywhere in the world you

22:51
want to go that you have not been to

22:52
yet?

22:53
Yes, I want to go to St. Petersburg in

22:56
Russia. Uh because uh there is a

22:59
particular painting by Rembrandt uh

23:02
which is my favorite and I would love to

23:05
see it in person and that painting is

23:07
the prodigal son.

23:09
All right. Uh best advice you've ever

23:12
received. The best advice I have ever

23:15
received is uh back to TS Elliott,

23:18
humility is endless. I think those three

23:21
words are the most true and powerful

23:24
words in the English language.

Servant Leadership Importance

23:26
Wow, that's good. All right, finally,

23:29
last question.

23:31
This is a podcast on servant leadership.

23:33
Why should people care about becoming

23:35
better servant leaders?

23:37
I'll go back to Luther and his great

23:39
writings on vocation. I think it's a

23:42
very important question to ask ourselves

23:45
from time to time. Why were you put on

23:47
the face of this earth? Uh and I think

23:51
overwhelmingly that people will find

23:53
that the answer to that question is the

23:56
answer to your question. Uh and uh there

23:59
became a moment in my life uh where when

24:02
I realized uh that my love for Jesus

24:06
Christ was the center of my life. uh and

24:09
the question uh about how I was to love

24:12
and serve him and love and serve other

24:14
people. I pray uh has been the defining

24:18
uh legacy of however many years God will

24:20
allow me uh to uh be on the face of the

24:23
earth.

Closing Remarks

24:24
Wow. Well, Tim, thank you so much for

24:26
taking time out of your day to be on the

24:28
podcast. We're going to link to some of

24:29
your books because they have been

24:31
extremely influential on me and on

24:33
society. So excited for people to read

24:35
more about the stuff you write about.

24:38
Chris, it's been a real blessing and

24:40
honor and a joy. Thanks so much. Really

24:43
appreciate it.

Podcast Outro

24:45
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24:46
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