CFOs Making History

0:00
I have a saying CFOs no longer record

0:02
history, they make history.

0:04
And I think there's a lot of truth to

0:06
that. It's not reporting what happened

0:07
after the fact. It's actually making

0:09
things happen. Fact, I remember early in

0:12
my career, I was um not not me

0:15
personally, but people in my profession

0:17
were compared to those old school uh

0:20
military people with um bayonets. They

0:24
didn't do actual fighting, but they

0:25
would look at the dead bodies on the

0:26
ground and stab them to make sure that

0:28
they were really dead.

0:30
That's what people thought about

0:31
accountants and auditors back then.

Introducing Jack McCullough

0:40
Today on the servant leadership podcast,

0:41
we welcome Jack McCulla, the founder and

0:44
president of the CFO leadership council.

0:47
The CFO Leadership Council started as a

0:50
handful of CFOs gathered around a single

0:52
table [music] and has now grown into the

0:54
fastest growing global community of

0:56
thousands of chief financial officers.

0:59
Jack is also the author of The Rodman

0:01
Paradox, which breaks down how Dennis

0:03
Rodman became the winningest basketball

0:05
player in history.

Jack's Leadership Insights

0:07
In his book, Jack makes the argument

0:09
that every team has behindthe-scenes

0:11
[music] players that are central to

0:12
their long-term talent strategy.

0:15
Join us as Jack shares how to identify

0:17
the irreplaceable [music]

0:18
specialists on your team and learn new

0:20
ways to reward, protect, and empower

0:22
your hidden MVPs.

Welcome to the Podcast

0:25
Jack, welcome to the Servant Leadership

0:27
Podcast.

0:28
Thanks, Chris. I'm really excited to be

0:30
here. Appreciate you having me on.

Starting the CFO Council

0:32
Give our listeners the background of how

0:34
somebody even starts leading an

0:37
organization that works with thousands

0:39
of CFOs.

0:41
Yeah. And you know, when I started the

0:43
group, I myself was a CFO

0:46
and I never really felt like I was the

0:49
leader of the group. I certainly wasn't

0:51
the best CFO amongst the early members.

0:53
Uh I was just kind of the guy that put

0:55
it together a little bit. Um but you

0:58
know I just decided look you know why

0:00
don't we form a community of our peers

0:02
get together share knowledge show up war

0:04
stories bring in the occasional outside

0:06
speaker and it was uh as Ross Perau used

0:09
to say the organization was kind of uh

0:12
run upside down even though I might have

0:14
been the titular head of the group you

0:16
know the fact is I very much took the

0:18
direction from the members it's like you

0:20
want me to get this speaker or cover

0:22
that topic I'll try to find a way to

0:24
figure that out and you know I got a lot

0:26
from it too because I was trying to

0:28
become a better CFO myself and you know

0:30
I was learning from my community

First Meeting Challenges

0:33
when when you were thinking about it and

0:35
even getting other people around the

0:36
first table because now I think you have

0:38
thousands of CFOs as part of this

0:40
community but when you were getting the

0:41
first table together what was the pitch

0:43
like what were you like hey let's all

0:45
just come around and talk about finances

0:47
or let's all learn from each other what

0:48
was the pitch

0:50
you know it honestly wasn't a lot more

0:52
than what you just described you know I

0:54
had a first couple years I did this and

0:56
certainly the first meeting I had a

0:58
marketing budget of precisely 0 and0

0:02
I just I had a fair number of friends

0:04
who were CFOs you know people that I'd

0:07
reached out to uh over the years for

0:09
advice and and vice versa and I just

0:11
said why don't we get together I'm sure

0:14
we can find a you know a good outside

0:15
speaker to make it worth it let's get

0:17
together uh listen to that person and

0:20
you know have breakfast or you know meet

0:21
for drinks after work or something like

0:23
that and you know I I didn't really have

0:25
a mass master plan. Sometimes the best

0:27
businesses are the ones that there isn't

0:30
a plan. You're just kind of solving a

0:31
need. Uh but yeah, it was really kind of

0:34
that simple. I expected to get like 20

0:36
people and the very first meeting I had

0:38
50 and that's when the old like the

0:40
cartoon character the light bulb went on

0:42
over my head. So, wow. One of the things

Fractional CFO Trend

0:45
that I'm seeing in the in the CFO world,

0:47
and I'm not sure if you're seeing this

0:49
too, which is what I'm curious about. I

0:51
keep seeing people talk about becoming

0:52
fractional CFOs and trying to place more

0:55
fractional type CFO uh people into

0:59
organizations. And maybe that's because

0:00
there's a lot of smaller businesses that

0:02
can't afford a full-time CFO, but how

0:05
are you seeing the CFO world shift over

0:07
the last decade? Yeah, on the fractional

0:10
side, I mean, it it's not new, but I

0:14
think that they're a lot better

0:15
respected than they used to be. Uh, you

0:18
know, there was a point, it wasn't that

0:19
long ago, Chris, you you'd tell somebody

0:21
you're a fractional CFO and perhaps any

0:23
type of fractional executive, and you

0:26
know, you'd get kind of a funny look

0:27
like that's not a real job. But you know

0:30
what we've learned is that you know it

0:32
is actually a real job that fractional

0:34
CFOs can make a huge impact on the

0:37
organizations that they work for. And

0:39
you know it's also you know it's a

0:41
pretty lucrative way to make a living.

0:43
Um and it's it's very interesting way to

0:46
make a living because you you know you

0:48
never get if you have like three

0:49
different clients and you're kind of

0:50
rotating you're dealing with you know

0:52
three different sets of challenges on a

0:54
daily basis. So you know what a learning

0:56
opportunity that is.

Defining the CFO Role

0:58
Yeah. What one of the things I'm curious

0:00
about for listeners when they hear the

0:02
term CFO? Some people might think

0:05
accounting or controllers are the same

0:08
as a CFO. What separates a CFO from a

0:11
controller or an accountant within an

0:13
organization?

0:15
Yeah. And I I was a CFO. I haven't been

0:18
a CFO since like 2006 or 2007.

0:22
And when I look at controller job

0:24
descriptions today, they sound very much

0:27
like what I did back then. I I think

0:30
it's possibility that if I were like a

0:32
young professional today, I might peak

0:34
at the controller level. And by the way,

0:35
that's great. Controllers make a really

0:37
it's an important job. You can make

0:38
really good money. But CFOs today,

0:40
they're more forward-looking. They're

0:42
more strategic. Um they're usually uh

0:45
they're critical partners to chief

0:47
executive officers. Um in fact, like I

0:50
um I did a survey and CFOs for years

0:52
have been saying most important person

0:54
in my professional life's the CEO.

0:57
of course, right? But it wasn't until

0:00
recently that I've sensed that that

0:01
feeling is reciprocated.

CFOs as Strategic Partners

0:03
Um, you know, I think CEOs, if you ask a

0:06
lot of them, they will say, "Yes, the

0:08
CFO is the most important person in my

0:10
professional life." And, uh, with with

0:13
my podcast, I was saying CFOs no longer

0:15
record history, they make history.

0:18
And I think there's a lot of truth to

0:20
that. It's not reporting what happened

0:22
after the fact, it's actually making

0:24
things happen. In fact, I remember early

0:26
in my career, I was um not not me

0:29
personally, but people in my profession

0:31
were compared to those old school uh

0:34
military people with um bayonets. They

0:38
didn't do actual fighting, but they

0:39
would look at the dead bodies on the

0:41
ground and stab them to make sure that

0:42
they were really dead. That's what

0:44
people thought about accountants and

0:46
auditors back then, but today they're,

0:48
you know, making a difference in their

0:49
organizations.

Podcasting and Leadership

0:50
Wow. Well, and you've been doing your

0:52
own podcast for a while, bringing to

0:54
light a ton of uh really successful CFOs

0:58
and bringing their voices to light. One

0:00
of the things that's been interesting

0:01
maybe in that journey is you've learned

0:03
a lot about leadership talking to all

0:05
these people. You know, you end up

0:07
starting something accidentally almost

0:08
that was just to benefit you and now

0:10
you've been able to talk to many many

0:12
many CFOs. uh how much of that learning

0:17
from podcast and this journey led into

0:20
you wanting to write the Rodman paradox?

Writing The Rodman Paradox

0:24
Yeah, it was um I'm continuously

0:26
learning because like the CFOs

0:31
that I've interviewed, you know, they're

0:32
for the most part they're all really

0:34
good financial people as you might

0:35
expect. Although I wouldn't say all of

0:37
them necessarily think of themselves

0:39
that way, but they're great strategists

0:41
and great leaders. And in my mind it

0:44
just opened up so many possibilities.

0:46
And you know one of the questions that I

0:48
explore when I with my guests is what's

0:51
their leadership philosophy? How do they

0:53
build teams?

0:55
You know what is it that makes the team

0:56
work? Because you know one thing about

0:58
CFOs they tend to you know genuinely be

0:01
um

0:03
the humility gene. They they they have a

0:05
lot of trouble taking credit for their

0:08
own accomplishments. you know anything

0:10
you compliment on something they they

0:12
give credit to somebody else. It just

0:14
seems to be in the nature and it seems

0:15
to be a very sincere belief that they

0:17
hold as well and you know so it's just

0:19
natural for me to okay you you you're

0:21
describing what seems like a world-class

0:23
team you know what is it about that you

0:26
know led you to uh you know about you

0:28
know how'd you build such a team I

0:30
imagine you weren't just lucky you must

0:32
have a philosophy on team building and I

0:34
learned so much including the impact of

0:36
specialists that aren't necessarily

0:38
recognized

0:39
and that's what inspired me to write the

0:41
book

Dennis Rodman's Impact

0:42
wow so talk about the book for our

0:44
audience, talk about the behind the

0:46
scenes because I think everyone's heard

0:48
of Dennis Rodman. Uh, and and you shed

0:52
light on some really fascinating

0:53
perspectives related to him.

0:56
Yeah. And as you know, someone who grew

0:58
up in Boston as a Celtics fan, it's it's

0:00
it's tough to swallow that I'm that I

0:03
named a book for Dennis Rodman, [snorts]

0:04
but but here we are. But the thing, just

0:07
a few people who don't know about, you

0:09
know, his basketball career,

0:11
um, he he was a pretty limited player.

0:14
He could only do two things on a

0:16
basketball court. Well, he could defend

0:17
and he could rebound,

0:19
but he did those things. He probably was

0:21
a better rebounder than anyone in

0:23
history. And he was, you know, probably

0:25
the best defender in his own day. Uh,

0:28
you know, there probably have been

0:29
better defenders before and since, but

0:30
rebounding, he was the best rebounder

0:32
ever according to advanced analytic

0:34
stats. So, but the thing about him, even

0:37
though he couldn't score, he couldn't

0:38
pass, he wasn't much of a locker room

0:40
presence, he was part of five

0:42
championship teams, and you know what's

0:45
interesting is he actually has the

0:48
highest playoff winning percentage of

0:50
anyone in NBA history, more than Michael

0:53
Jordan, more than LeBron, more than

0:55
Steph Curry, even more than, you know,

0:57
some of the old school guys that my

0:59
father was big fans of like Bill Russell

0:01
who won 11 championships. So there's an

0:03
argument that despite being a very

0:05
limited player,

0:07
he was one of the biggest winners in the

0:08
history of the sport.

Takeaways from Rodman's Career

0:11
And what takeaways did you have from

0:14
that that made you want to write a book?

0:16
Yeah. Well, there was a a real world

0:19
thing that it was actually actually one

0:22
of the podcast guests and uh after we

0:26
were talk after the episode, it wasn't

0:28
aired because of the confidential

0:29
nature, but he's talking about he had

0:30
just done a reduction in his team and he

0:34
let go um his controller who he

0:37
considered a worldclass controller. She

0:39
was very good at her job. She was a

0:41
great leader. She understood the

0:42
business, everything you'd want in a

0:44
controller. and he kept a financial

0:46
analyst who only did one thing really

0:48
well and this was two years ago but she

0:51
was using Gen AI to really empower

0:54
better faster decision-m and he made the

0:57
decision that you know the company was

0:59
struggling we're going to come back I

0:01
can replace the controller relatively

0:03
quickly I'll never be able to replace

0:05
this financial analyst not by anyone on

0:07
the team and probably not by anyone in

0:10
the job market just because her skill

0:11
set was so unique that it made her

0:14
irreplaceable

0:15
And it just got me thinking. It's like I

0:17
wonder how common that is that a person

0:21
who's not versatile, who doesn't lead

0:23
anybody, who, you know, doesn't really

0:25
have any interest in directing teams,

0:27
but they do one or two things really

0:29
well that makes them irreplaceable in a

0:31
company. And it turns out that's

0:33
actually a pretty common thing.

Identifying Irreplaceable Specialists

0:35
And uh when I was thinking about, okay,

0:37
who's a famous person like that? Um, you

0:40
know, Rodman is probably the greatest

0:42
specialist in the history of sports.

0:44
Again, tough to swallow. Uh, you know,

0:47
having been a big Larry Bird fan when

0:49
they were rivals. But, uh, but he

0:51
probably is. I, you know, I asked people

0:53
around. I guess there's a cricket player

0:55
that I wouldn't know his name, but he

0:57
was similar. He didn't have good stats,

0:59
but he just kind of always won. But he's

0:01
a guy you can't he's just irreplaceable.

0:05
you put them on your team, you win

0:07
championships, and then usually when you

0:09
leave, the company doesn't do as well.

Key Takeaways for Leaders

0:12
When as you were writing that, what were

0:13
some of the key takeaways that you were

0:15
hoping business leaders and people

0:17
getting into the workforce would be

0:19
taking away after reading the book?

0:21
Yeah, I think the main thing is

0:25
there's a lot of emphasis sort of on the

0:27
charismatic charismatic leader, you

0:30
know, and it's like sometimes people are

0:32
identified relatively early in the

0:34
career. Oh, he or she has the IT factor.

0:36
Who knows what the IT factor actually

0:38
is? But they've got charisma, you know,

0:40
they they've got certain credentials and

0:42
whatnot. And they they're viewed as sort

0:44
of the future leaders of the company.

0:46
And I'm not suggesting that there's

0:47
anything wrong with that or that they

0:49
don't do a good job leading. But what

0:51
I've discovered is that there's these

0:53
specialists who have this irreplaceable

0:56
skill set. They're the only one who can

0:58
do what they do. And I and on the other

0:02
a lot of them, it's not that they have

0:04
difficult personalities, but they're not

0:06
the type of people you'd put as a

0:08
department head or that you'd put even

0:11
doing like a small project management.

0:12
They don't have that skill set. And for

0:15
that reason, they're not given the level

0:17
of respect from senior management that

0:19
they deserve. But if you get one of

0:21
these people and sort of let them be

0:23
themselves, you really get something

0:25
special that can be transformative for

0:26
the whole company.

Balancing Leadership Styles

0:28
Yeah. I'd be curious on your take of the

0:30
balance of that and servant leadership

0:33
because when I think of Dennis Rodman,

0:35
you you think of all the great

0:37
basketball stuff, but you also think of

0:39
him maybe off the court especially being

0:42
very self-focused and maybe not others

0:44
focused, you know, but he was great on

0:46
the court. And and how do you take that

0:49
servant leadership mindset with the

0:51
Rodman paradox when somebody is trying

0:53
to think through how they build their

0:54
team?

0:55
Yeah, I mean Rodman like when his final

0:59
year I believe he was with the Lakers

0:01
and he was actually still good and they

0:03
were winning games when he was playing.

0:05
He was injured a lot but he he was just

0:07
driving them nuts [snorts] off the

0:09
basketball court and they cut him. It

0:11
for that season it eliminated any chance

0:14
they had at the title but uh you know

0:16
they they had Shaq and Kobe the next

0:18
year and Phil Jackson they they kind of

0:21
recovered pretty well in that case. It

0:22
was clearly the right decision. But, you

0:24
know, in terms of servant leadership,

0:27
strictly speaking on a basketball court,

0:30
he kind of had his own take on that.

0:33
Um, while he wasn't a particularly good

0:36
locker room presence, he he wasn't as

0:38
bad as, you know, some people say, you

0:41
know, Jordan and Pippen thought he was

0:43
fine as a teammate, but he wasn't the

0:45
leader who would rally the people. But

0:47
he had a quote in his own book and I I

0:50
don't know the exact quote but he was

0:52
talking about people in Detroit who work

0:54
on the assembly line and he said all

0:57
these people do they may just tighten

0:59
bolts on cars but if you ask them what

0:02
they do for a living they say I build

0:04
cars they don't say I tighten bolts or

0:06
whatever it is they do I build cars and

0:09
he said and for me I don't just rebound

0:11
and play defense I win basketball games

0:15
and That's how he viewed it. That his

0:17
role was to empower all of the people

0:20
and make them better versions of

0:22
themselves. And you know, again, you

0:25
know, maybe it was self unselfishness,

0:27
maybe not. He's of all athletes, he's

0:29
one person. It's hard to get inside his

0:31
head at any given moment, but there

0:33
throughout his career, like, you know,

0:35
David Robinson won one MVP. It was by

0:38
far his best year, and it was the year

0:40
that he was Rodman's teammate. Rodman

0:43
did all the dirty work and just Rodman

0:45
and allowed Robinson to be the best

0:46
version of himself. And that's a pattern

0:48
you see during his career that a lot of

0:51
people when they were his teammate, they

0:53
had career years. So how do you go about

Identifying Rodmans in Business

0:57
identifying who the Rodmans are within

0:00
an organization or in the hiring

0:02
process? Like how does somebody actually

0:04
identify that? And is that something now

0:06
that you encourage people to look out

0:08
for?

0:09
Yeah, it's um you know the interesting

0:11
thing if you're on the seauite and it's

0:12
it's a company of any size, it's going

0:15
to be hard for you to identify it. But

0:18
one of the best ways is you just go to

0:20
people through in the company middle

0:22
management and say who is it that if we

0:24
lost you'd be in deep trouble and what

0:27
you'll find is a lot of times the same

0:30
name will come up over and over again.

0:32
And you know, if this is someone you

0:34
don't know and can't even really easily

0:37
describe what it is that they do for a

0:38
living, that's probably a Rodman. And

0:41
they often don't sit very high up on the

0:44
corporate uh the or chart because they

0:46
reject promotions and you know, people

0:48
look at their personalities and don't

0:50
think that they're well suited for

0:52
leadership roles to begin with. Uh have

0:54
you ever heard of a tool called

0:55
organizational network analysis or OA?

Organizational Network Analysis

0:58
No. Tell me about it.

0:00
It's actually pretty good. Well, the um

0:01
you know this most companies use the

0:04
standard, you know, uh hierarchical

0:06
chart, you know, the present at the top

0:08
and down in a pyramid. Well, that was uh

0:11
invented in like the 1840s by a guy who

0:14
worked at a railroad who was just having

0:17
trouble remembering who was who. That it

0:20
was a memory tool for him. And here it

0:21
is, you know, 180 years later was still

0:23
you using it. But on a what it does is

0:27
it doesn't it doesn't show leadership or

0:29
hierarchy. It shows influence.

0:32
And what you can do with modern tools,

0:34
you can find out who are the most

0:36
influential people in your company. Who

0:38
is it that people go to during a crisis?

0:41
Who is it that you might not know of,

0:43
but every department wants them to sit

0:45
in their their meetings for planning and

0:48
to tap into that individual's expertise?

0:50
And you can get it a lot of ways, you

0:52
know, by monitoring email or Slack

0:54
message boards or whatever it might be.

0:56
But if you use OA, you can sort of

0:58
identify these Rodmans because they have

0:01
tremendous influence far beyond what

0:03
their title would suggest that they

0:04
have.

Influence and Personality

0:05
And when you talk about that influence,

0:08
is that something that can be uh gained

0:12
or grown or is it just there's certain

0:14
type of personalities that by default

0:17
have influence not and it's not

0:19
something that can be learned?

0:21
Yeah, it it's probably learnable.

0:24
Okay. But in the case of like Rodman's,

0:27
like if you're not really, you know,

0:29
elite at what you do, you're probably

0:32
not going to be a Rodman just because

0:34
you're learning the skills. Uh, you

0:36
know, for example, um,

0:39
company's hacked and everybody goes to

0:41
the right person, they wouldn't go to

0:43
that person if they didn't believe he or

0:44
she, you know, had the skill set to

0:46
solve the problem. So anyway, I um a

0:50
friend of mine, childhood friend of mine

0:51
actually ended up being the chief of

0:53
police in his hometown. And you know,

0:55
this is a very very well I'm sorry I

0:57
said chief of police, fire chief in his

0:58
hometown. And you know, a very

0:00
wellrespected guy, you know, rightly so,

0:03
right? I mean, you know, risking his

0:04
life to save other people, gets a lot of

0:06
attention. But I had a conversation with

0:08
him and he was telling me like um one of

0:12
the most important people in the fire

0:13
department is is someone nobody knows

0:15
even exists. I'm like, "Oh, that's

0:17
interesting." Because, you know, the

0:18
people fighting the fires get all the

0:20
credit because it's visible.

0:22
And, you know, he's telling me like

0:23
there's there are people in the fire

0:25
department. They go around and all they

0:27
do is inspection. Like, these are

0:30
people, you know, they they wear the the

0:31
helmet with the flashlight on and

0:33
they're looking for faulty wiring.

0:35
They're making sure that smoke detector

0:37
batteries are still working, that the

0:39
fire extinguisher is in the right place,

0:42
all of those sorts of things. And um

0:47
you know he said those people are as

0:49
valuable as a firefighter

0:52
but it's tough to recognize them because

0:55
how do you reward somebody for a fire

0:57
that never happened?

Recognizing Behind-the-Scenes Talent

0:59
And in the corporate world a similar

0:00
thing might be like a cyber security

0:02
hack, right? Okay, you you're an online

0:05
retailer, you get hacked, you bring in

0:07
some folks, they fight the hack, you're

0:09
only down for two hours. Well done.

0:10
Those people are heroic. What about the

0:13
person who built the infrastructure

0:15
who prevented the hack from happening in

0:17
the first place? You know, no one ever

0:18
thinks of those people as her. Most

0:20
people don't even think of them. They

0:21
just kind of do their job quietly in the

0:23
background and because of that,

0:25
everything else works. And those are

0:27
your Rodmans in the organization. They

0:29
do their job extraordinarily well. You

0:31
really wouldn't want to survive without

0:33
them, but it's just tough to recognize

0:35
the contribution. Yeah, that's an

0:38
interesting perspective be something

0:40
that um that that makes me think about

0:43
we talked earlier about uh even in your

0:45
career how you might have capped out

0:48
earlier in the controller seat, right?

0:50
Even though you were a CFO, um I feel

0:53
like a lot of controllers or people get

0:55
stuck before they reach the next level

0:57
because they're focused on this

0:59
operational excellence and they never

0:01
actually get noticed for the things that

0:03
they're great at to move on. How do you

0:05
actually think people can get noticed?

Getting Noticed in Business

0:08
And then how do you work on as a leader

0:10
noticing people and those behind

0:12
the-scenes things that help others win

0:16
um in the people you have on your team?

0:19
Yeah, it it is hard and Rodman's uh will

0:22
not draw attention themselves for the

0:23
most part. That's you know, they just

0:25
kind of want to do their job really well

0:28
and and be allowed to do it. And as if

0:30
you're a leader of Rodmans, it's all

0:32
about creating a culture where that

0:33
goes. You know, talk to them regularly.

0:36
Um they their communication will be a

0:38
little bit different. I always like to

0:40
talk about this movie might be a little

0:42
bit before your time, but do you know

0:43
the movie Office Space?

0:44
Oh yeah, that's a great one.

0:46
Jennifer Anderson Before She Was Famous.

0:48
So So we're going back a little bit, but

0:50
uh do you know what a TPS reports are?

0:53
No. uh in office space that the the main

0:56
character they had to do these TPS

0:59
reports and like he had like 15 bosses

0:02
so anytime he did something he had to

0:03
fill out 15 different TPS reports.

0:06
Rodman's not going to fill out TPS

0:08
reports for you. They're just going to

0:09
do the job really well. And yet you need

0:12
to hold them accountable and you know

0:15
and communicate with them and make sure

0:17
you understand what they're doing. So uh

0:19
communication is critical. doesn't have

0:20
to be every week, but ask them what it

0:22
is that I need to do to make you better

0:24
at your job. Why are you working at

0:26
this? Help me understand why this is

0:28
critical and what success is. And it is

0:31
difficult to for those people to become

0:33
visible to leadership because they do

0:36
just kind of want to focus on the work.

0:38
I like to use the expression they don't

0:39
want to climb. They like to dig. They

0:42
just want to do a very limited thing

0:44
extraordinarily well. They don't care

0:46
about climbing the corporate ladder at

0:48
all. And uh are you familiar with the

0:51
concept of a dual career path?

0:53
Yeah.

0:54
Yeah. So you Rodman's excelled in dual

0:57
career paths. And for those who may not

0:59
be, the idea is IBM actually was the

0:02
first to use it. They realized that they

0:04
were losing some of their best

0:05
engineering talent by forcing them into

0:07
promotions. It's like, okay, you did a

0:09
great job. We're going to promote you

0:10
and have have you lead a team. Most

0:13
cases, that's actually a terrific thing.

0:15
People want to

Dual Career Path Concept

23:17
get promoted. They want

IBM's Career Path Strategy

23:18
the prestige that comes with a fancier

23:21
title, but Rodman types do not. Uh, you

23:23
know, they it's just not what they

23:26
aspire to. So, you know, IBM created

23:28
what they called a dual career path. If

23:29
you're like a technical genius and you

23:31
don't want to go to the leadership team,

23:34
you can stay and just do increasingly

23:37
complex scientific things. And it's it's

23:39
equally lucrative to a traditional

23:43
track. uh you peak at like in IBM the

23:45
highest traditional path VP would be

23:47
like a VP of engineering or senior VP of

23:49
engineering or or something like that

Technical Track Prestige

23:51
but if you're on the opposite track the

23:53
technical track it it might be something

23:56
like distinguished engineer but in their

23:58
world that's a more prestigious title

24:00
than a VP and it it better reflects

24:02
their contribution to the organization.

Empowering Rodman Types

24:05
So, so if you have one of these Rodmans,

24:06
they're not going to promote themselves

24:08
maybe because they don't want to be

24:10
promoted, but you know, recognize that

24:12
and just empower them to be the best

24:14
version of themselves, uh, the role that

24:15
they were meant to fulfill in the

24:18
company because the sad truth is in a

24:20
competitive landscape for talent, if you

24:22
don't do that, your competition is going

Encouraging Non-Promotional Employees

24:26
to. M as you think of people leading

24:28
Rodman's within their organization,

24:31
what's the best way to encourage them

24:33
and have them actually feel valued when

24:35
maybe they aren't looking for that

24:37
promotion. They just really want to keep

24:39
doing the job that they love to do.

Check-Ins and Recognition

24:41
Yeah. A lot of times it's just the

24:43
check-ins and they're they're all a

24:44
little bit different, right? Some of

24:46
them were like they want to be

24:49
recognized at company meetings. Others,

24:52
you know, find that appalling. It's like

24:54
no do not recognize me in a company

24:56
meeting. They do want the respect of

24:57
their peers.

Respect from Peers

25:01
You know, they an engineer might care

25:03
more about respect from his or her

25:05
fellow engineers than from the president

25:08
or the board of directors. So, just kind

25:10
of make sure that hey, even if we're not

25:12
acknowledging this publicly and broadly,

25:14
we recognize what you're bringing to the

25:17
organization and we value it and we know

25:19
it's important. The other thing is you

Asymmetrical Compensation

25:22
you know they um they're not more greedy

25:25
or less greedy than other professionals.

25:27
So you need to sort of fight some

25:29
battles on their behalf because their

25:31
title may seem unimpressive to an

25:35
outsider, right? Why should a principal

25:37
scientist,

25:38
you know, be making more money than a

25:41
department head three levels above them?

25:42
And the answer to that is, well, because

25:44
they're more valuable. They do things

25:46
that we can't do that no one else in the

25:48
company can do. and would be screwed if

25:51
we lost them. So recognize that and make

25:53
sure that it's called asymmetrical

25:55
compensation. Make sure that you're

25:57
paying them based upon the value they

25:59
bring, not based upon the title that

26:00
they hold.

Insights on CFOs

26:03
Yeah, that's super good. Uh, one of the

26:04
things that you have a unique vantage

26:08
point on is you get insights on a lot of

26:10
businesses because you're working with

26:12
so many different CFOs around the

26:13
country and around the world. Uh, I'm

26:16
curious. Uh, I was looking up something

26:18
that you had, the create framework. Talk

26:22
about how that came to be and how you're

26:24
empowering CFOs to think differently.

Create Framework Explained

26:26
Wow. You're the first person who's ever

26:28
asked me about the create framework. So,

26:31
you do do your homework. Yeah. Create. I

26:35
just um you know and it's our our um our

26:37
college professors would say I didn't

26:39
survey enough people for it to be

26:41
statistically valid because it's I uh

26:43
it's about a hundred people but it's

26:45
people I'll call them CFO customers

26:48
people who rely on CFOs and it's like

26:51
presidents other seuite members uh

26:53
venture capital investors boards of

26:56
directors people like that and I just it

26:58
was an open-ended question what is it

27:01
that you value in CFO

Leadership Over Technical Skills

27:04
And you know none of them to my surprise

27:05
none of them said finance and accounting

27:07
expertise. I didn't think all of them

27:09
would but I thought some of them would

27:11
and very few of them mentioned sort of

27:12
their technical ability. You know

27:14
they're IT technical not accounting

27:17
technical but they um they focused all

27:20
on the leadership and personality traits

Create Framework Components

27:23
and create stands for it's been a while

27:24
so I want points if I get this right on

27:27
the first attempt. It's uh they were

27:28
looking for certain leadership styles

27:30
which were collaboration,

27:32
resiliency,

27:36
empathy, agility, transparency and

27:37
empowerment.

Team Building to Empowerment

27:40
So um and uh yeah, I had to empowerment

27:42
I had to manipulate a little bit when I

27:45
first did it was team building uh team

27:48
leading and it's like well that's creat

27:49
uh [laughter]

27:51
what's the equivalent of team building

27:54
that with an E. Uh so uh but yeah, they

27:56
they really focused on sort of these

27:59
leadership traits rather than the

28:01
ability to do what you and I might think

28:03
of as a CFO's job. But it really does

28:05
show CFOs are respected as much for

28:08
their leadership and strategic thinking

28:10
as they are for their finance and

28:12
accounting aptitude.

Rapid Fire Questions

28:14
That's super interesting. Well, okay,

28:16
Jack, I want to finish with 10 rapid

28:18
fire questions.

28:19
Oo, okay.

28:20
You just answer with the first thing

28:23
that comes to mind. No wrong answer.

Servant Leadership Inspiration

28:26
Who's the first person you think of when

28:28
I say servant leadership?

28:32
H uh Pat Canning, who is my boss at

28:35
KPMG. He was the managing partner of the

28:38
office. Uh best leader I ever worked

28:40
with. We had 900 people in the office,

28:41
and I swear he knew all of them on a

28:43
firstname basis.

Describing Jack McCullough

28:47
Wow. Five words that most describe you.

28:52
Uh let's see. I am funny, empathetic,

28:54
uh, intellectually curious. Does that

28:56
count as one word or two?

28:57
Whichever you choose.

28:59
Okay. So, we'll we'll say that's true.

29:01
Funny, empathetic, intellectually

29:04
curious, and uh, very loyal. I think

29:06
people would probably say that, you

29:08
know, I'm very loyal and very

29:10
protective.

Recommended Author

29:12
Who's an author that you'd recommend

29:14
people check out?

29:17
Um, I'm a big fan of Stephen Mr. Cvy.

29:18
Yeah.

29:20
And uh that's the son. And in

29:22
particular, for one, I met him and I

29:24
really like him. But he wrote a book

29:26
called Inspire and Trust.

29:28
And to me, that's that's what it's all

29:30
about for CFOs, which is the world I

29:32
live in. It was it was written for

29:34
leaders generally, not CFOs, but it's

29:36
the book just resonated with me.

Favorite Food

29:39
Wow. Favorite food?

29:42
Ah, boy. Uh

29:42
[sighs]

29:43
I'm going to seem like an

29:45
eight-year-old, but a cheeseburger and

29:47
French fries with milk with a milkshake.

Free Time Activities

29:48
Love that. Favorite thing to do in your

29:50
free time?

29:52
Well, I I don't have a lot. I'm a parent

29:54
of two autistic adults, so that does

29:57
take up a lot of my time, but I'm a bit

30:00
of a gym warrior. I like to, you know, I

30:02
I love to do workouts that are too

30:04
difficult for a man my age

30:08
and really push myself. And also, my

30:10
wife and I met at a wine tasting class

30:11
and even though I don't drink very much,

30:14
but just spending uh time with her over

30:16
a good meal is a beautiful thing. Wow,

30:18
that's awesome. All right, surprising

Surprising Fact

30:20
fact about you.

30:25
Uh, let's see. I have um I'm a triplet.

30:27
Wow, that is surprising.

30:28
Well, you know, there's a a funny story

30:30
about that, Chris, because I'm I'm not a

30:34
true triplet. I have um I was adopted as

30:36
a baby and separated

30:40
from my biological family. Um but my

30:44
father, my biological father had uh

30:46
three kids within a few weeks of each

30:48
other. He had twins from the woman that

30:50
he married and and then me from my

30:52
mother. So I later in life met my

30:54
sisters and we call ourselves the

30:56
triplets. So

30:56
Wow.

30:58
Yeah. We become very close. In fact, I

30:59
posted a picture of them on LinkedIn

31:00
last week. So

Important CFO Qualities

31:04
Wow. All right. Most important thing you

31:07
think people should look for in a CFO?

31:09
Um

31:11
pro would have to be one of those create

31:13
things I suppose right

31:15
um I think transparency

31:19
uh you know there's a lot of CFOs who

31:21
have the skill to be a CFO but you want

31:24
a transparent communicator you know she

31:26
says what she means and she means what

31:28
she says I think that's what you want in

31:30
a CFO always will be telling the truth

Becoming a CFO

31:32
all right why should somebody consider

31:35
becoming a CFO

31:38
uh you can really make a difference uh

31:40
you can it's a tremendous uh leadership

31:44
and strategic thinking opportunity and

31:45
it's it has to be one of the most

31:49
rewarding uh careers in there. In fact,

31:53
I presented at MIT Sloan uh last year

31:56
and there are a lot of a lot of people

31:58
who are financially oriented, you know,

32:00
they go to Wall Street understandably.

32:02
Uh but you know, I sort of made the

32:04
pitch that hey, this is a very lucrative

32:06
career path as well.

Perks of Being a CFO

32:07
You'll have interesting work. You'll

32:12
work with great people. And you know it,

32:14
not me, but like I have a good friend of

32:16
mine, you know, he became a fairly

32:19
prominent CFO, but like he told me he's

32:21
been to the Oscars,

32:24
the Emmys, he's been to probably 20

32:26
World Series games, he goes to the Super

32:28
Bowl every year, he's golf, Pebble

32:29
Beach,

32:32
he's worked uh in on every continent in

32:35
25 different companies. And of all those

32:38
things he's been to he and other stuff

32:39
too. Stanley Cup finals, NBA finals.

32:42
Didn't pay a dime for any of it.

32:43
[laughter]

32:44
That's pretty good.

32:45
Yeah, it's a pretty good selling thing.

32:47
You get get to go to the Oscars and golf

32:49
at Couple Beach without paying. So,

Best Advice Received

32:51
wow. All right. What's the best advice

32:53
you've ever received?

32:57
Um, boy, it it's pretty simple. Um, and

32:59
you know, perhaps our parents taught us

33:03
this, but just be nice to people. And uh

Power of Kindness

33:05
do I have can I share a story about

33:06
that?

33:08
Sure.

33:08
Yeah. So it take me a minute, but it was

33:11
a friend of mine. She actually um she

33:12
works in a state that doesn't have a lot

33:17
of IPOs and she she took a job with, you

33:19
know, one of the hot companies in her

33:23
state and the company actually did go

33:25
public. I think it might have been the

33:28
only IPO that year and she was pretty

33:29
young at the time. She's like 32, 33. So

33:32
they went public. A couple of years

33:33
later, she's asking me, uh, I'm sorry,

33:36
she's asking the CEO, you know, you

33:38
could have had any CFO you wanted to do

33:41
this with. Why'd you pick me? And he

33:44
said, oh, it was one of your references.

33:46
And she said, really, which one? And she

33:48
said, you I don't know the guy's name

33:50
anymore, but let's say Frank Smith.

33:52
Frank Smith was a mentally challenged

33:54
guy who worked at the library at the

33:55
public accounting firm that she worked

33:58
at. M

34:00
he was also he grew up next door to the

34:03
CEO of the company. So he called him and

34:04
said what's she like and he said oh

34:06
she's the nicest person to me in the

34:09
whole office. I think you should hire

34:11
her

34:13
and you know she obviously had the

34:16
skills and she was very good CFO but she

34:18
largely got the job just because she was

34:19
nice to this guy or I she's completely

34:20
deserved the job. I don't want to

34:23
diminish that but right

34:25
that's one of those things she got

34:26
rewarded just for being a nice person.

Importance of Servant Leadership

34:29
Wow, that's a powerful story.

34:31
Yeah. All right. She won't let me share

34:33
her name publicly, though. [laughter]

34:36
Finally, a podcast on servant

34:38
leadership. Why should people care about

34:40
becoming better servant leaders?

34:44
Well, it's uh first of all, it's just

34:46
kind of nice, isn't it, Chris?

34:48
That God, your role is to make people

34:51
better versions of themselves, help

34:53
people reach the potential and become

34:55
the leaders that they themselves can be.

34:57
So, you know, unselfishly,

34:59
what's better than that in the corporate

35:02
world?

35:05
It's not obvious to me. And then, you

35:07
know, if you do want to become a little

35:10
bit selfish about it, the main reason to

35:13
become a servant leader is it works.

35:15
You know, I I can't prove it. Perhaps

35:18
you can, but I have to think it's the

35:21
most effective leadership style that's

35:23
available to us, right? Become a servant

35:25
leader. Be that person that people want

35:28
to come and work for. uh you know, you

35:30
yourself will have a fantastic career

35:31
because of it.

Podcast Closing

35:35
Well, Jack, thanks for joining us on the

35:36
podcast and sharing some of your wisdom.

35:39
Excited for people to follow what you're

35:41
doing as well.

35:43
Thanks, Chris. It was a lot of fun.

35:45
Appreciate you having me on.

35:47
Thank you for listening to this episode

35:49
of the Servant Leadership Podcast. If

35:51
you enjoyed what you heard, please give

35:53
it a thumbs up and leave a comment

35:55
below. Don't forget to subscribe and hit

35:57
the notification bell to never miss an

35:59
update. Be sure to check out the servant

36:02
leadership podcast.org for more updates

36:04
and additional bonus content.