Mike Donehey's Near-Death Experience

0:00
My heart stopped three times and when I

0:00:02
came to they said they the first

0:00:04
diagnosis was I would never make it

0:00:07
through the night and then they told my

0:00:08
parents day two that I'd never walk

0:00:10
again. So when they told me that in

0:00:13
intensive care, I said, "Well, can you

0:00:16
guys get me a guitar?

Podcast Introduction

0:24
Today on the Servant Leadership Podcast,

0:26
we welcome Mike Donahe, the lead singer

0:28
and founder of 10th Avenue North. When

0:31
Mike was 18, he was in a near fatal car

0:33
accident that stopped his heart three

0:35
times. Doctors told him he'd never walk

0:37
again, and from his hospital bed, he

0:40
asked for a guitar. That guitar led to

0:42
him helping write and lead some of the

0:44
most recognized songs in Christian

0:46
music. Mike has also become a

0:48
best-selling author, writing books

0:49
[music] like Finding God's Life for My

0:52
Will and Grace in the Gray, and

0:54
co-authoring The Lonely [music] Wolf's

0:56
Club. In this podcast, Mike talks about

0:59
the importance of stewardship, pointing

0:01:01
back to Paul calling himself a servant

0:01:03
and steward of the mysteries of [music]

0:01:05
Christ in First Corinthians.

Mike's Journey and Music

0:07
Join us as Mike shares the difference

0:09
between God's will for your life [music]

0:11
and God's calling on your life, how he's

0:13
learned to stay gracious with people who

0:15
disagree with him, and why he co-wrote a

0:17
book about the loneliness epidemic among

0:19
men.

Welcome Mike Donehey

0:23
Mike, thank you for joining us on the

0:25
Servant Leadership Podcast.

0:27
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

First Musician on Podcast

0:30
This is super special because you are

0:32
the first musician I think we've ever

0:34
had on the podcast and uh your music has

0:37
been absolutely gamechanging in my world

0:39
for over a decade. So, this is exciting,

0:42
man. I love to hear it. Love to hear how

0:44
good your taste in music is, too. It's

0:46
great.

Accidental Music Career

0:47
Okay. I know you've told this story all

0:48
over the internet, but you didn't plan

0:51
to be a musician like so many musicians.

0:53
You kind of accidentally fell into this

0:55
and accident is truly the word. Talk

0:57
about

Mike's Musical Beginnings

0:58
that is the right word.

0:59
Talk about how you fell into being a

1:01
musician.

1:02
Yeah. Uh I did fall into being I see

1:05
what you're doing here. This is great.

1:07
Uh, I didn't play guitar um until I was

1:10
18. And I only started playing guitar

1:14
because I literally died in a car

1:17
accident. I got thrown out of a car. My

1:19
buddy wrecked a car on the way to

1:21
school. I got thrown out. Paramedics

1:23
found me no heartbeat. And um they got

1:27
they gave me CPR, got a heartbeat. And

1:31
two more times in the ambulance, my

1:33
heart stopped. And the third time I was

1:36
transported to heaven and I saw Jesus

1:38
face to face and he handed me a That

1:41
part's not true. [laughter]

Humor and Reality

1:43
I was like, I didn't heard that part.

1:45
I I did that once at a show recently and

1:48
I was like and Jesus handed me a guitar

1:50
and a guy in the crowd goes, "Amen,

1:53
brother." And I had to I had to I was

1:56
joking. Um everything else is true. I

1:59
did I my heart stopped three times and

2:02
when I came to they said they the first

2:04
diagnosis was I would never make it

2:07
through the night and then they told my

2:08
parents day two that I'd never walk

2:10
again.

Guitar as Therapy

2:11
So when they told me that in intensive

2:14
care I said well can you guys get me a

2:16
guitar cuz I'm going to need to do

2:19
something. Um and then couple months

2:22
later I was running again but the guitar

2:24
stuck. I started playing. So when I got

2:27
to college, I was the worst guy guitar

2:30
and I just bugged all my friends how to

2:33
play. And I would just sit with kids in

2:36
these little groups outside and we would

2:38
just worship God. And I just experienced

2:43
spiritually, emotionally things I had

2:45
never experienced. And I said, I gotta

2:47
keep doing this. And so

College and Music Rejection

2:49
I tried out for praise team at my

2:51
college and got rejected like, uh, you

2:54
need to learn how to play guitar.

2:56
Uh, and so somehow, you know, my high

2:58
school reunion, everyone was still

2:59
baffled that I made a career out of

3:01
music.

Realizing a Music Career

3:02
Wow. I mean, when did you realize this

3:05
was like going to turn into a real

3:07
career?

3:09
For a while, cuz I kept writing songs.

3:12
I'd be like, "God gave me this song."

3:14
And people would go, [snorts] I think

3:16
it's cuz he didn't want it anymore. If

3:18
that's why he gave it to you. And then I

3:21
was at this camp, you know, I was

3:24
starting to play music at this big

3:26
church. I got on staff there. John

3:28
Maxwell was actually actually a teaching

3:30
pastor. So I heard a lot about

3:32
leadership.

Writing "Love Is Here"

3:33
And

3:35
I started writing songs for the students

3:38
based on what I felt like they weren't

3:40
getting at the conference or the youth

3:42
thing. And I wrote this song called Love

3:44
Is Here. And I remember that was the

3:47
first time people were like, "We want

3:48
you to play that song again. Uh, you

3:51
want to hear the song again?" And, uh,

3:53
that's kind of when I started going,

3:55
"Maybe this will be maybe this will be

3:57
something."

Songwriting Success Rate

3:58
Wow. Uh, so obviously you write a ton of

4:00
songs. How what percent of songs are

4:04
actually like major hits? Because

4:06
obviously you have millions and millions

4:08
and millions of people listening to your

4:10
stuff, but like there's a ton of duds, I

4:12
bet, in there. At least a few. I have no

4:15
duds. All my songs are great. They're

4:18
incredible. So good.

Songwriting and Humility

4:21
The best songs. Uh even if I write about

4:24
dogs, it's great songs. The best.

4:26
[laughter] Sorry, I won't do that

4:27
anymore. Uh we might have lost some

4:29
people right there or gain people. I

4:31
don't know. It depends.

4:32
Probably gain people.

4:34
Uh yeah, a friend of mine, he goes,

4:37
"Don't you love how writing songs is

4:39
like five loaves and two fish?" I go,

4:40
"What do you mean?" He goes, "It's like

4:42
you write this song and then God uses it

4:45
for millions of people like that little

4:47
boy with his lunch." And I go

4:50
a few times.

4:52
Most of the time it's like the woman

4:54
with a year's worth of perfume poured

4:56
out on Jesus's feet.

4:58
I've written thousands of songs that

5:01
nobody has heard or will ever hear. and

5:06
what maybe 10 songs have been

5:09
hits in certain circles, you know? So,

5:12
my Babe Ruth had a much better slugging

5:15
percentage than I do. I'll just say,

5:17
well, there's something about that

5:18
because I think people look at you and

5:20
think like, man, this guy's been playing

5:21
music since he was a baby and clearly

5:24
every record label wanted him and

5:26
clearly he's got these hit songs and

5:28
like from the outside it looks like,

5:30
man, your life must have been perfect.

5:31
and they don't realize the struggle. But

5:33
isn't that like what we're all

5:34
experiencing in our own stuff? Like how

5:37
does that relate to like how you relate

5:39
to other people and what they're going

5:41
through?

Identity and Work

5:43
Yeah. I think whatever career you're in,

5:47
um I love what Tim Keller says. He says

5:51
so many people try to find their

5:53
identity in their work, right? Like I'm

5:55
a musician. Um, and the problem with

5:58
that is it actually

6:02
makes your work

6:04
um, too important.

6:07
You go, "No, no, no. What are you

6:09
talking about?" When your identity isn't

6:11
what you do, it's what's been done for

6:13
you in Jesus. It actually frees you up

6:17
to do the work for the work's sake.

6:20
Does that make sense?

6:21
Yeah. It's like it's like I know so many

6:23
musicians who they got some popular

6:26
songs and now the whole reason they want

6:28
to write a song is for the applause they

6:31
can get if it's a hit. And the problem

6:34
with that is you can't actually fall in

6:36
love with the process of writing songs.

6:40
So if my identity isn't in being

6:44
applauded, like I already feel approved,

6:46
then I can actually give myself to the

6:48
work and go, "This song doesn't need me

6:52
doesn't it doesn't need to get that

6:54
applause for me and I can actually

6:56
hopefully write better songs."

Leadership and Stewardship

6:59
Yeah. I heard you once talk about uh

7:02
leadership like that, right? Where it's

7:03
like people who want to be good leaders.

7:05
I I don't remember your quote exactly,

7:07
but it was basically like people who

7:08
want to be good leaders, like they're

7:10
going to be the worst leaders because

7:12
really their identity is caught up in

7:13
having people look at them as the leader

7:15
or something like that. What have you

7:16
learned about leadership and servant

7:18
leadership over the years and like using

7:20
that perspective?

7:22
Yeah. So, I wrote this in a book. I

7:24
don't know if you're going to like this,

7:25
Chris, based on the title of your

7:28
podcast, which is servant leadership.

7:30
I've actually been on this campaign,

7:32
again, I worked with John Maxwell. I've

7:34
been on this campaign that I think

7:35
Christians should just stop using the

7:39
word leadership.

7:41
Um,

7:42
first and foremost because Paul

7:45
basically says that in 1 Corinthians 3

7:47
and 4. There's this argument about some

7:50
follow Apollo, some follow Paul. I get

7:52
that being a musician. It's like I'm a

7:54
fan of this person, I'm a fan of this

7:56
person. I'm a, you know, I love Taylor

7:58
Swift. I love Forest Frank. Like

8:00
whatever it is. And uh he says it

8:04
shouldn't be that way. And then he says

8:05
this, "This is how you should regard us

8:09
as servants and stewards

8:14
of the mysteries of Christ."

8:16
So Paul says, "We are servant stewards."

8:20
And we go,

8:23
"Servant leader." And my argument is, if

8:26
you've seen Lord of the Rings, the

8:28
steward of Gondor can't

8:32
believe that the king has returned

8:33
because he wants to be the king.

8:37
But when you call yourself a steward,

8:40
it's way harder.

8:42
I I think it's harder to manipulate the

8:45
word steward into dysfunctional ways as

8:49
it is the word leader. Like anytime you

8:51
start talking about leadership, it's

8:52
always like but by leader I mean you

8:54
need to be a servant. It's like well

8:56
then why are we using a word that we

8:57
have to reexplain

9:00
where a steward infers lots of things

9:03
that leadership doesn't. Right? If I

9:05
call myself a servant steward,

9:08
it infers that my gift was given to me.

9:12
It infers that it's on loan. It infers

9:16
that I have a responsibility to

9:18
administer this gift in a way that is

9:22
efficient and impactful, not because I

9:25
get the glory, but because I want to

9:27
give it back to the king who is coming

9:29
back for this territory. So, I'm just in

9:32
this belief system that we should try to

9:36
get everyone to start using the word

9:37
stewardship more often, not just when

9:39
they talk about money.

Stewardship Over Leadership

9:41
Yeah. No, I love that. I'm trying to

9:43
think through how do we rechange the

9:44
name of the podcast to be like this

9:46
steward leadership podcast or something

9:48
like that.

9:49
It would it wouldn't get as many

9:50
downloads. I'm telling [laughter] and

9:52
and and to be like a little pokey about

9:55
it. I go I think it's because steward

9:58
just does not stroke our ego like the

10:01
word leader does.

10:02
Yeah. And so leadership will we'll we'll

10:05
go okay servant leadership

10:08
because like give me something give me

10:10
something to hang my ego on you know

Humility and Ego

10:13
so how have you been able to do that and

10:16
steward what God has given you so well

10:19
because one of the things that I love

10:20
about you and it helps if somebody else

10:22
has it uh your humility is so apparent

10:26
from the outside and I've literally

10:28
followed you for over a decade now like

10:32
it It's unbelievable. I love your

10:34
perspective all the time. Uh, and it

10:36
seems like you've got this humble

10:37
spirit, but at the same time, everyone's

10:39
looking to you as the leader and the

10:41
guy, and it's all Mike, and Mike's on

10:43
the stage, and Mike's doing this. Like,

10:45
how have you dealt with that?

Maintaining Humility

10:49
Well, first of all, thank you. I would

10:52
not say that about myself. Um, but

10:56
again, something that really freed me up

10:59
about worrying if I'm coming across

11:01
humble or arrogant was what C. Lewis

11:03
said where he said, "The most humble guy

11:06
among you might actually strike a lot of

11:08
people as arrogant."

11:09
Because being humble isn't thinking less

11:13
of yourself. It's thinking of yourself

11:15
less. It's like if you're just thinking

11:19
about other people, you'll become humble

11:22
because you're just not taking up so

11:23
much brain space in your own story.

11:26
Um, and I think being in a band, I don't

11:29
know if you followed, but I did a solo

11:31
thing for a little bit.

11:32
Yeah.

11:33
And quickly realized like I don't like

11:37
my name, my personal name being equated

11:40
with an entity.

11:42
And I I think it's trippy, right? Like

11:45
when you're a solo artist

11:47
and your name is your artist's name,

11:50
there's no like

11:53
distance there.

11:55
So, so first of all, I just I love being

11:57
a part of 10th Avenue North because

11:59
that's not me.

12:00
That's a group that I'm a part of.

12:03
So, it helps any adoration that comes

12:05
here.

12:06
It's it's not soaking and permeating

12:09
into my identity,

12:11
right? Because I'm just a part of that

12:12
thing. Um, and then two, being in a band

12:15
is

12:17
wonderful for the ego. Uh, because your

12:20
bandmates won't let you get away with

12:23
anything. Like, oh, here comes Mr. Big

12:26
Shot. Thinks he's all, you know, I mean,

12:29
anytime I get a little bit of ego,

12:31
they're really good at putting pins in

12:34
it. And then I also have a wife who's

12:37
very good at shooting me straight. I

12:40
have four daughters who love to make me

12:43
feel not cool. Um, and then lastly, I

12:47
will just say this from a practical

12:49
standpoint is the book of Proverbs says,

12:53
"A wise man loves correction

12:56
and a foolish man hates it." And I

13:00
actually wrote a whole book about how to

13:03
lovingly disagree with people called

13:05
Grace and the Gray. And a lot of that

13:08
was,

13:10
especially when you're a Christian

13:12
artist,

13:14
when you get online and you say anything

13:18
that doesn't line up perfectly with the

13:21
people who follow you, with the way they

13:22
think, they get very distraught very

13:27
quickly. M

13:28
and I've spent years trying to have

13:32
reasonable conversation online with

13:34
people, which let me tell you that will

13:37
humble you because even things you

13:40
didn't mean to say, apparently you said.

13:44
And

13:46
if you get really defensive and

13:48
defeated,

13:50
you're just never going to get anywhere.

13:52
And um but leaning in with curiosity

13:58
uh then even when I don't feel like I'm

14:00
in the wrong, I can still appreciate any

14:03
criticism that comes at me. And I want

14:05
to say this. I was just telling with a

14:06
buddy, he goes, "How do you do that?"

14:08
Like, "How do you get online?" Because

14:10
there's so many people who are trolling.

14:11
I don't call people trolls because I

14:13
don't label anyone. I don't give anyone

14:16
an identity based on their misbehavior.

14:19
Mhm.

14:19
I think that's like my buddy works with

14:22
people who struggle with addiction. He

14:24
wouldn't even say he works with addicts.

14:27
Uh because when you label yourself based

14:30
on your dysfunction, then that's who you

14:32
believe you are, right? You act like who

14:34
you believe you are. So there are people

14:36
who do trolling. I won't call them

14:38
trolls, but they will do they will do

14:40
the trolling and they will say really

14:43
mean nasty things to me. And I've had

14:46
some friends say, this is why I wrote

14:48
that book, is they said, "You seem to

14:51
have this weird ability to not

14:55
lash back

14:57
and someone will be super mean to you

14:59
and then you'll just ask them what they

15:01
mean." And I don't know how you do that.

15:03
And I said, "This is crucial, especially

15:06
for anyone in any sort of position of

15:09
power or stewardship over other people.

15:13
You are going to be criticized.

15:15
You are going to be told you're doing it

15:17
wrong. You're gonna be told that you

15:19
didn't have the right answers or you

15:21
didn't do it the right way or you said

15:22
it wrong. And if you are constantly

15:25
trying to prove that you're correct,

15:27
[snorts] you're going to die.

15:31
[laughter] It's you're just going to run

15:32
out of gas.

15:34
Um, and on the flip side, if you take

15:36
everything that people say

15:39
as credible advice, you will also be

15:43
destroyed because you'll never do it

15:45
right to please everyone. Right?

15:47
But, and this is this is crucial, when

15:50
you believe that the accuser of the

15:54
brethren

15:56
is the enemy we have, right? We don't

15:58
wrestle against flesh and blood, but

15:59
against principalities. And this guy,

16:02
this leader of evil, this Satan,

16:06
he is called the accuser of the

16:08
brethren.

16:11
So this is my habit and I think this

16:14
applies to any career you're in. When I

16:18
am uh addressed with scathing vitriolic

16:26
rage,

16:28
anything that is accusation,

16:31
I put to the side.

16:34
I go, if I'm feeling accused,

16:37
I'm not going to listen to that. Now, I

16:40
can get curious

16:42
about is there any truth in there? I

16:45
don't stand accused. I'm completely

16:47
righteous in the name of Jesus. So now I

16:49
can actually be totally curious about

16:52
what I might have done wrong because I'm

16:54
not having to justify myself.

16:58
Um, and there was something else I

17:00
wanted to say about that. Oh, have you

17:03
seen the guy? He's like,

17:06
"Chris, you have blue hair. I hate your

17:07
blue hair. Your blue hair is stupid. You

17:10
have the stupidest blue hair in the

17:13
world." Does that affect you? No.

17:16
No.

17:17
Why not?

17:18
Yeah, because there's no blue hair.

17:20
Yeah, but if you're like, "Chris, your

17:22
podcast is stupid. You say dumb stuff. I

17:26
hate it."

17:28
How does that hit you?

17:29
It hits different, but maybe they're

17:31
right.

17:33
So, the only reason we ever have a

17:35
reaction to what people are saying

17:37
negatively about us is because some part

17:39
of us thinks they're correct.

17:41
Yeah.

17:42
And so, that also helps me. is like,

17:44
well, if I'm resonating, if I'm very

17:47
worked up, then there's some truth here

17:50
that I need to explore.

17:52
But if I can separate the accusation and

17:54
say, but even if I was wrong in this, I

17:57
still stand righteous before Jesus. Now,

17:59
I can get curious about what can I do

18:02
better? Because a wise man loves being

18:04
corrected.

Unique Perspective on Life

18:06
I love that. One one thing I've noticed

18:09
and uh and it's unique to you. Um but

18:13
there's other people like this too,

18:15
Chris. I love talking to you. I just I'm

18:18
just getting getting my glow up today.

18:20
I don't know if it's musicians or

18:22
creatives or what, but like you see the

18:24
world differently, right? Like even

18:26
thinking through this, I love that

18:27
perspective. Um I don't know. I I think

18:30
you wrote this before that book, but

18:32
even thinking through like God's life

18:34
from my will, you know, it's like we

18:36
always talk about that in the reverse

18:38
order and you have this ability to look

18:39
at things from a slightly different

18:41
vantage point. Uh how did that come to

18:43
be? Maybe talk about that book later. I

18:46
want to talk about the lonely wolves

18:47
club because that is really interesting

18:49
to me. Uh

Finding God's Life for My Will

18:51
yeah.

18:52
Yeah. The finding God's life for my

18:54
will. It's a book I wrote and I did a

18:57
Q&A. It was like two years ago now and

18:59
someone asked me about the book and I

19:01
responded with this about one minute

19:04
paraphrase and that went online and that

19:07
little explanation the first time I

19:10
posted it has had 21 million views and

19:13
and it just people keep reposting it and

19:16
reposting it.

19:17
Wow. Which reminds me of the reason I

19:20
wrote the book in the first place. And

19:22
the reason I wrote a book called Finding

19:23
God's Life for My Will is because being

19:25
on stage, night after night, over and

19:29
over and over,

19:32
kids, younger people, older people, they

19:33
would come up to me and they would say,

19:35
"When did you know?" I say, "When did I

19:37
know what?" They go, "When did you know

19:39
being a musician was God's will for your

19:42
life?" And I would say, "It's not." And

19:46
they go, "What?" I go, "If being a

19:49
musician is God's will for my life, then

19:51
what happens when I get in an accident

19:53
and break my hands and can't play guitar

19:55
or smash my throat and can't sing? Have

19:58
I lost God's will for my life?" Now,

20:04
being a career is not God's will for our

20:08
life. Anytime you see God's will for

20:10
your life in scripture, it's like be

20:12
joyful always. Pray continually. Give

20:14
thanks in all circumstances. Or what

20:16
does the Lord require of you? Act

20:17
justly, love mercy, walk humbly. In

20:19
other words,

20:21
uh a career path is not God's will for

20:24
your life. The posture of your heart

20:26
while you pursue that career is God's

20:28
will for your life.

20:30
Right? So it isn't should I be a

20:32
musician? It ought the question ought to

20:35
be what kind of musician would I be if I

20:37
was one?

20:39
And that helps remind me that ultimately

20:41
God's will for my life is becoming more

20:45
like Jesus and to become more loving in

20:47
whatever I'm doing.

God's Will vs. Calling

20:50
And so essentially

20:53
we have combined God's will for our life

20:56
with God's unique callings on our life.

21:01
And when you can kind of separate those,

21:04
it goes back to what I was saying

21:05
before. When I realized being a musician

21:07
is a temporary,

21:10
one of many callings on my life because

21:13
one of the callings on my life right now

21:15
is to be a husband apparently because I

21:17
married a girl and apparently it's to be

21:19
a father of four daughters. And so these

21:23
are all callings that come in and out of

21:25
our lives for a time. And

21:30
we have to be so careful to not say this

21:34
is who I am. This is what I called to

21:36
do. Because you're probably going to

21:38
miss out on some new thing that God

21:40
might be bringing into your life because

21:42
your identity has been fixed around the

21:45
call,

21:46
not around the love of the one who

21:48
called you. M

21:50
and that goes back to Storin Kirkar. He

21:51
basically says any identity you build on

21:55
something other than the love of God

21:57
will ultimately destroy you.

Upcoming Conference

22:02
Well, I I know you're working on a

22:03
conference behind the scenes. Is this

22:05
what the conference is related to or

22:07
what is this going to be?

22:08
Yeah, I mean the the conference is the

22:10
finding God's life for my will

22:12
conference. So, it's basically for

22:14
anyone who if you want to how can I help

22:17
separate

22:18
God's will for my life and God's

22:20
callings on my life and how can I maybe

22:23
better discover God's callings on my

22:26
life and I think there's a freedom to do

22:28
that when it's not attached to your

22:31
identity and God's will like if I know

22:34
my identity is secure and I actually

22:36
already know all that God's will for my

22:38
life is now I can be more curious

22:42
and feel less pressure about what are

22:45
the unique ways I've been created and

22:49
the unique things that I might be

22:50
equipped to do on the earth.

Conference Details

22:53
Wow, that's good. Who's that going to be

22:56
for? Is it going to be for everybody?

22:57
How is it going to be virtual? How will

22:59
people actually get connected? Because

23:01
we're gonna have to put this in the show

23:02
notes, too. I think people will be

23:03
interested.

23:03
Yeah. Yeah, it will. It's this October.

23:06
It's in Nashville. It's at a venue in

23:07
Nashville. Um I got some musician

23:10
friends coming. I have some New York

23:12
time bestselling author friends coming

23:13
to speak. Uh, so it's for Yeah, I I

23:17
would say it's for maybe 18 and up.

23:21
Cool.

23:21
I don't know if like a middle schooler

23:23
would get a lot out of it. I maybe kind

23:25
of depends on the maturity of the middle

23:27
schooler because it's going to be pretty

23:28
mature. [laughter]

The Lonely Wolves Club

23:30
Well, I'll make sure that we link to

23:32
that because I think people will be

23:33
really interested. Uh, that's cool.

23:36
What with stuff you're doing? Okay. You

23:38
bump into a lot of people. uh talk about

23:41
how the Lonely Wolves Club came to be

23:43
and and what your what your thoughts

23:45
were there because when I first heard

23:47
about that uh I somebody said, "Hey,

23:50
check this out, but you can't buy one of

23:51
them. You've got to buy multiple of

23:53
them." I was like, "What do you mean?" I

23:55
I legitimately was just so confused and

23:58
then and then I was like, "Oh, this is

24:00
cool."

Concept Behind Lonely Wolves Club

24:01
Yeah. Um so you've I'm sure you've heard

24:04
the joke. Jesus's greatest miracle was

24:07
having 12 best friends in his 30s.

24:11
Have you heard that joke?

24:12
No. Tell me.

24:13
So, it's like, you know, we live in this

24:15
loneliness epidemic. So, to have most

24:20
guys, you go, "Hey, who are your 12 best

24:22
friends?" Like, maybe I have one. Mhm.

24:27
And one of my best friends here in

24:29
Nashville, he's um a psychologist and he

24:32
runs emotional intelligence cohorts with

24:37
business leaders. So, it's like uh

24:41
finding rediscovering the heart and soul

24:43
of your leadership. That's kind of his

24:45
thing. And we argue about the leadership

24:46
word kind of in a tongue-in-cheek fun

24:48
kind of way. and uh he said, "Dude, we

24:51
got to write a book together where you

24:53
kind of bring your whimsical artistic

24:55
thing and then I can bring my my study

24:58
and my systems and we kind of see what

25:02
we could create."

25:03
Um,

25:04
and so I was

25:08
we we wrote a book uh or we wrote a song

25:10
years ago called No Man is an Island.

25:12
And so just trying to find another word

25:14
for that. And um I was, you know,

25:18
studying about wolves and finding that

25:22
most all wolves are not lone. And if a

25:26
if a wolf is alone, it's like

25:27
something's gone wrong usually.

25:30
And uh I just think something reminding

25:36
people that we're made in the image of a

25:38
God who is a community,

25:41
right? Uh, so if that's true, then there

25:45
are no lone wolves in the kingdom of

25:47
God.

25:48
So this is a little a little fun book

25:51
that me and my buddy wrote together to

25:53
kind of um give people some

Understanding Loneliness

0:26:55
healthy guidelines of hey, number one, you're

0:26:58
made for community. So if you are

0:27:00
feeling lonely and you've been beating

0:27:02
yourself up because you're lonely, maybe

0:27:05
push pause on beating yourself up. What

0:27:07
if the loneliness is actually gift

0:27:10
reminding you of what you're made for?

0:27:13
What if loneliness isn't something to be

0:27:15
cured? What if it's a signpost saying,

0:27:17
"Hey, you don't have the relationships

0:27:19
in your life that you were meant to

0:27:20
have." So, let that loneliness not drive

0:27:24
you into further isolation trying to

0:27:26
like, well, I got to not be lonely. I

0:27:28
got to do this thing by myself. Why

0:27:31
don't you let that loneliness lead you

0:27:34
to reach out for the community it's

0:27:36
telling you you want?

Practical Steps for Change

0:27:38
So that's one. And then two would be and

0:27:41
here are some practical ways to actually

0:27:43
start doing that.

0:27:45
Yeah. So on the practical ways, I'm sure

0:27:47
a lot of people are thinking, boy, I

0:27:49
wish my life was different in this way.

0:27:50
Whatever it is, it might be faith,

0:27:53
family, fun, fitness, finance. Like it

0:27:55
might be one of those or it might be

0:27:57
something else. like what are the steps

0:27:59
that you encourage people to take in any

0:28:02
direction?

Acknowledging and Asking

0:28:04
I mean,

0:28:06
first acknowledge that you want it and

0:28:09
that you need it. And then, you know,

0:28:12
believing that God is a community. That

0:28:14
gives me a super reason

0:28:17
to want it and need it. That

0:28:20
if I'm made in the image of God, then I

0:28:21
then I have to have this.

0:28:23
And then two,

0:28:26
the dumbest, simplest thing is start

0:28:28
asking.

Building Community

0:28:30
Like my buddy Rob, the reason I wanted

0:28:32
to write this with him is he constantly

0:28:34
is inviting a group of dudes over to his

0:28:36
house at least once every two weeks. And

0:28:38
he's South African, so he's got this

0:28:40
huge ridiculous grill that he's built.

0:28:42
He's like, "Bring meat. I'm going to

0:28:44
make a fire. We're going to drink wine.

0:28:46
We're going to eat this meat." And and

0:28:49
then during the dinner, he just does the

0:28:52
really uncomfortable thing where he

0:28:53
goes, it's not super deep. He's like,

0:28:56
"Hey, what's going well in your life and

0:28:58
what's not working?"

Importance of Male Friendships

0:29:00
It's like what I do with my girls after

0:29:01
school. Hy low buffalo. You ever heard

0:29:03
of that? Like

0:29:03
Yeah.

0:29:05
When was the last time you did that with

0:29:06
a group of men?

0:29:09
I haven't, but I do the kids. Yeah.

0:29:11
Exactly. And I think that's dangerous. I

0:29:15
think it's I know some buddies where

0:29:17
it's like I have my wife, my kids,

0:29:19
that's it. And what's wild, if you just

0:29:23
do a couple re my buddy who was the

0:29:25
president of Baro Research Group, he's

0:29:27
going to be at my conference. So, he's

0:29:28
always directing me to different studies

0:29:31
and stuff.

Longevity and Friendships

0:29:32
You are It's absurd. I don't I don't

0:29:36
have it off the top of my head, but the

0:29:37
percentage is crazy how much longer you

0:29:41
live as a man if you have best friends

0:29:44
you hang out with on a regular basis.

0:29:47
Like men who have no best friends rarely

0:29:50
make it to their 80s.

0:29:52
Rarely.

0:29:53
And so that that tells me like, "Oh man,

0:29:56
I am made for this."

Future Plans

0:29:59
Wow.

0:30:01
All right. As you think through what's

0:30:03
next for you, and it might be more of

0:30:05
the same or it might be different. What

0:30:07
do you feel like uh God's life is for

0:30:11
your will coming up in the next 5 to 10

0:30:13
years?

Exploring New Ventures

0:30:16
Chris, don't don't don't put it back on

0:30:18
me. I don't know. [laughter]

0:30:22
Um, yeah. So, again, starting a

0:30:25
conference, writing this book with my

0:30:27
friend.

0:30:28
Um, did a retreat last year.

0:30:32
These are small steps I'm taking

0:30:35
not to go away from music. I'm I would

0:30:38
hope that in 10 years I'm still writing

0:30:39
songs and doing music,

0:30:42
but I'm also going to get curious about

0:30:44
these other things I'm thinking about

0:30:46
and feel wired to do, which is why I've

0:30:49
written three books now. And um you

0:30:51
know, just kind of like spreading out.

0:30:53
It's why I did a podcast for a while.

0:30:55
Just like trying to spread out. Oh, I

0:30:59
don't just like lyrics when they hit you

0:31:01
in a song. I love anytime the light bulb

0:31:05
goes off for somebody.

Passion for Light Bulb Moments

0:31:07
So that's a way of like sometimes we

0:31:09
look at our particular skill we have and

0:31:11
we think this is the thing but I've been

0:31:13
trying to get well what's the thing

0:31:14
behind the thing? What attracts me to

0:31:17
writing a song and I I've been able to

0:31:20
pinpoint

0:31:21
I just love the light bulb moment

0:31:24
in all kinds of ways. So, I don't know.

0:31:26
I'm excited, but I'm starting starting

0:31:28
to let my tentacles get reaching and we

0:31:32
see where they may go.

Impact and Influence

0:31:34
Oh, I love it because I think wherever

0:31:36
you end up doing things, uh, it's clear

0:31:39
that God is using you to make a cool

0:31:41
impact in the lives of people. Um, so

0:31:44
it's a lot of fun. I'm excited to keep

0:31:45
following it. Uh,

Rapid Fire Questions

0:31:47
I I want to hit you with 10 rapid fire

0:31:49
questions where you just say the first

0:31:51
thing that comes to mind. No wrong

0:31:52
answer. I'm ready.

Servant Leadership Inspiration

0:31:55
Who's the first person you think of when

0:31:58
you hear servant leadership?

0:32:00
John Maxwell.

Describing Mike Donehey

0:32:01
All right. Five words that most describe

0:32:03
you.

0:32:05
Fun,

0:32:07
sad,

0:32:10
creative,

0:32:12
interested, curious.

Recommended Authors

0:32:15
Love it. Author you would recommend

0:32:17
somebody to listen to or read? Oh, well,

0:32:21
I mean, we just talked about him, so Tim

0:32:22
Keller.

Music Preferences

0:32:23
All right. Uh, this might be hard for

0:32:26
you. Favorite genre of music?

0:32:29
All.

0:32:31
All right.

0:32:32
No, hold on. Let's see.

0:32:34
That's a copout answer.

0:32:36
Someone asked us the other day what kind

0:32:37
of music our band made, and I wanted to

0:32:39
say urban space, indie folk.

0:32:45
[snorts]

0:32:45
Oh. Uh, I guess I guess I would probably

0:32:48
say indie like in in like all the

0:32:51
different kinds. It just feels like

0:32:53
there's more possibility in that genre.

Favorite Song

0:32:56
Favorite song you have written.

0:33:02
Um,

0:33:07
or is that an unfair is that an unfair

0:33:09
question? Well, you know, Mac Pal from

0:33:11
Third Day, we used we did a lot of tours

0:33:13
together, and people always ask him

0:33:15
this, and I loved his response. He said,

0:33:16
"Man, my songs are like my children.

0:33:18
Even if you got an ugly one, you love

0:33:20
them all the same." [laughter]

0:33:22
That's a good answer.

0:33:23
Or or whatever the song I've just

0:33:26
written.

0:33:27
Yeah,

0:33:27
that would be. So, right now, it's a

0:33:28
song called Providence. It isn't out,

0:33:30
but we just wrote it. So,

Favorite Food

0:33:31
love it.

0:33:32
All right. Favorite food?

0:33:35
Uh, I mean, I guess I'd have to say a

0:33:38
smoothie. I do a health shake every

0:33:40
morning. So, by

0:33:43
consumption numbers, that would be my

0:33:45
favorite. But probably just a juicy,

0:33:48
delicious steak, meat steak.

Free Time Activities

0:33:50
What do you like to do in your free

0:33:52
time?

0:33:54
Uh, I love to play basketball actually.

0:33:58
Love it.

0:33:59
Which I'm not necessarily great at it.

Surprising Facts

0:34:02
What's What's a surprising fact about

0:34:04
you? Maybe it's the basketball. Maybe

0:34:06
it's something I'm playing.

0:34:06
I think that I play basketball. Okay.

Best Advice Received

0:34:09
Uh, best advice you've ever received.

0:34:11
In seventh grade, I got sent to my

0:34:13
principal's office 42 times.

0:34:16
And at the end of that year, Randy Brunk

0:34:18
was his name. He caught me stealing

0:34:21
candy out of the candy machine. Had my

0:34:23
arm, you know, used to be able to do

0:34:24
that. Monkeyed up and stealing some

0:34:27
candy. And you would think after being

0:34:30
in his office 42 times that year, he

0:34:32
would just this kid and blast me. He did

0:34:35
the exact opposite. He said, "Michael,

0:34:38
you're telling me your integrity is

0:34:40
worth 50 cents? I always thought it was

0:34:43
worth a lot more than that."

0:34:45
Wow.

0:34:45
The next year, I didn't go to the

0:34:47
principal's office once because he

0:34:49
reframed that my problem was I believed

0:34:53
that I was that behavior kid. And not

0:34:56
only did it change how I see myself, but

0:34:58
it it changed how I see other people.

Stewarding Leadership

0:35:01
Wow. [snorts] All right. Last rapid fire

0:35:04
question. I normally ask people why they

0:35:07
think people should care about becoming

0:35:08
better servant leaders, but I want to

0:35:10
rephrase it. Why do you think stewarding

0:35:13
leadership is something that people

0:35:15
should care about?

Connecting and Equipping Others

0:35:18
And I know you would have taken the word

0:35:19
leadership out. I I know that.

0:35:21
No, no, no. Well, at the end of the day,

0:35:24
the the question is like, why is it

0:35:26
worth connecting with the people around

0:35:28
you and equipping the people around you

0:35:31
and bettering the people around you with

0:35:34
the gifts and talents that you have?

0:35:36
That's sort of the question under the

0:35:37
question, at least how I'm hearing it.

0:35:40
And I think when you spend your life

0:35:43
that way, it's the best way to spend

0:35:46
your life. And that's what Jesus said.

0:35:50
It's better to give than to receive. And

0:35:54
I'm reading Theo of Golden right now.

0:35:56
It's a novel that's like

0:35:58
Yeah. What's What's the the prime I'm

0:36:01
halfway through it, but it seems like

0:36:02
the whole story is if you just do loving

0:36:06
unnecessarily loving acts of kindness

0:36:08
toward people in your circle, it's the

0:36:12
greatest trickle effect you could

0:36:13
possibly imagine. So

0:36:14
yeah,

0:36:15
uh I just want to live the best life I

0:36:17
possibly can. And I think the most love

0:36:20
I can love people with is the best way

0:36:23
to live.

Closing Remarks

0:36:24
Wow, that's so good. Well, Mike, we're

0:36:26
going to be cheering you on. We're going

0:36:27
to put links where people can check out

0:36:29
the conference. We're going to put links

0:36:30
where people can follow your stuff. And

0:36:33
thank you for being on the Servant

0:36:34
Leadership Podcast.

0:36:35
Thanks for blowing me up, Chris.

0:36:37
Appreciate you.

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0:36:38
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0:36:40
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0:36:43
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